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RGG wrote:Called shat have a minimum of 12 or better... Of course if the mage casting the spell is of high level - I would simply use a save vs. Magic to determine if it hits the head or body.... I need to review the spell before I can offer more... But generally, a save /dodge vs magic roll 14-16 is what I would use.
Damian Magecraft wrote:GM call...
by the book it would be a main body strike.
say652 wrote:if your willing to roll a strike to hit using bas roll plus spell power bonus then yes, if you want to use the spell save then NO.
Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
Can i choose to hit say head shot for the helmetless or just the hand of a robot?
Or is it a main body/target strike only???
Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
Goliath Strongarm wrote:In PF, there is- dodge- natural 20 or modified 24. (yet another example of differences between settings).
Flatline wrote:If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
The Beast wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
No they don't. With extremely few exceptions, you have to be aware of an attack to dodge it, even if you have auto-dodge.
RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.
Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.
I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.
RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.
Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.
I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.
Goliath Strongarm wrote:RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.
Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.
I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.
RIFTs version: Saving throw: NONE. NONE as in NONE. So there is no target number. It doesn't matter if there's a bonus to spell strength, it doesn't matter on ANY of it- because there IS NO SAVE!!!!
Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.
But, in RIFTs, it doesn't matter. And the fact of auto-dodge would not matter. Because the character gets struck by lightning and takes the damage. End of story.
RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.Nekira Sudacne wrote:RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?
Damian Magecraft wrote:If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.Nekira Sudacne wrote:RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.Nekira Sudacne wrote:RGG wrote:flatline wrote:Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?
If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.
Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.
--flatline
High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.
Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?
And what perspective is that? i've never seen it argued before.
The Beast wrote:Little Snuzzles wrote:Zamion138 wrote:Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.
No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.
No they don't. With extremely few exceptions, you have to be aware of an attack to dodge it, even if you have auto-dodge.
Damian Magecraft wrote:If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.
Subjugator wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.
According to the RaW, gestures are usually required to cast a spell.
RUE, page 189, under verbalization it says gestures are usually required.
/Sub
Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the energy.
Thats a GMs call there...Zamion138 wrote:Kinda off topic but does a relefection count as LOS? Ie if im looking in a periscope over a hill can i cast on what i see?
or like mage goggles from shadow run with the fiber optic to put into a crack or under a door that allows you to see the target?
Subjugator wrote:Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.
HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.
*shrug*
/Sub
Damian Magecraft wrote:Subjugator wrote:Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.
HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.
*shrug*
/Sub
Agreed on the as long as the mage thinks its required its required.
but we cannot work (in a meta game discussion) under the assumption that it is a canon requirement.
Subjugator wrote:Damian Magecraft wrote:Subjugator wrote:Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.
HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.
*shrug*
/Sub
Agreed on the as long as the mage thinks its required its required.
but we cannot work (in a meta game discussion) under the assumption that it is a canon requirement.
I was just noting that portion and not stating that it was canonical.
/Sub
Spell strength is not a spell's strike roll, it only applies to savings throw rolls, which you usually don't get against physical or energy damage spells.RGG wrote:High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...
I don't see why spell strength boosters would increase the number you had to hit with a dodge roll, no precedent for that.Goliath Strongarm wrote:Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.
Robotech has magic?drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Can be Dodged @ -12: RT1:Sentinels
Transdimensional Pg 43 has no savings throw, it's automatic.drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I Don't Know: TMNT (i don't have a complete set)
Tor wrote:Robotech has magic?drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Can be Dodged @ -12: RT1:Sentinels
Tor wrote:I don't see why spell strength boosters would increase the number you had to hit with a dodge roll, no precedent for that.Goliath Strongarm wrote:Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.
Goliath Strongarm wrote:There, it specifically states that the save is a dodge. Would your spell strength apply? There IS a save, it just happens to be a dodge instead of the "normal" save. After all, a bonus to dodge applies, why shouldn't the difficulty to dodge it apply? If not the spell strength, how about a ranged attack bonus applying?
Goliath Strongarm wrote:If not, Why not?
Goliath Strongarm wrote:Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!
Goliath Strongarm wrote:Now, as for your "no precedent" statement, what about Fire Ball?
Saving Throw: Dodge, but the victim must know the attack is coming and must roll an 18 or higher (bonuses to dodge are applicable).
Rules always depend entirely on GMs to alter them, but the precedent in Palladium is to be a savings throw, something has to have 'save' in the description. Dodging is a defensive roll, not a savings throw. If a rune weapon gives me +1 to all savings throws, I don't get a dodge bonus. Savings throws are resisting rather than avoiding. Dodging is just sometimes noted in that section as a way of saying "no, you don't get a savings throw versus magic, but you can dodge the physical thing"Goliath Strongarm wrote:There's no precedent either way. It would depend ENTIRELY on the GMs
No, it isn't, because spell strength is resisted by a save vs magic, not a dodge. A roll to beat via a dodge is not the same as spell strength. Your +2 can apply if someone is trying to use Negate Magic or something to block your call lightning, but not to make it harder to dodge. + to strength is not + to strike.Goliath Strongarm wrote:deciding if the dodge is a "save", which would be modified by the +2. Since no portion of the book clarifies in either direction. Hence my using the word COULD. It's open to interpretation.
You seem to have missed the 'none' part. Spell strength only applies if someone does get a savings throw versus a modifiable spell strength.Goliath Strongarm wrote:Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!
This is obviously because spell templates have the copied 'savings' template to be filled. Whenever dodge appears, it's using a physical combat dice system and not a magical combat dice system. What you're doing is some clever play, but...Goliath Strongarm wrote:as for your "no precedent" statement, what about Fire Ball? Saving Throw: Dodge, but the victim must know the attack is coming and must roll an 18 or higher (bonuses to dodge are applicable).
The dodge is not a savings throw versus spell strength, so the number to meet, not being the spell strength, would not apply.Goliath Strongarm wrote:There, it specifically states that the save is a dodge. Would your spell strength apply? If not, Why not? There IS a save, it just happens to be a dodge instead of the "normal" save. After all, a bonus to dodge applies, why shouldn't the difficulty to dodge it apply? If not the spell strength, how about a ranged attack bonus applying?
Tor wrote:Dodging is a defensive roll, not a savings throw.
Tor wrote:Savings throws are resisting rather than avoiding.
Tor wrote:There are savings throws besides those versus magic, and spell strength bonuses only apply to the magical strength. Some spells require dodges, some require saves versus Horror Factor, others a savings throw versus insanity or psionics. The other forms of saving throw are not made harder by better spell strength, because these rolls are not against spell strength, they are against other factors.
My pal Prysus wrote:The spell Magic Net (level four, and easily learned by a first level mage as a starting spell (Fire Ball and Call Lightning are not). It requires a 16 to dodge. Following said logic (of adding in Spell Strength), that actually means that Magic Net has a HIGHER spell strength than Rituals (which is supposed to have a "higher" saving throw than spell magic, unless you're like a level 15 Wizard).
Goliath Strongarm wrote:I see that argument. And I can concede to it, and I know the rule that rituals don't get spell strength, but I have to ask, why not? Isn't the spellcaster who does the ritual able to add his power into it? If he's 15th level, isn't he stronger than a 1st level doing the same ritual (theoretically possible)? So why is the save the same?
Goliath Strongarm wrote:Below would be a newly thought of house rule discussion, yes (and something not thought of before)
And since Tor brought them up, and I actually hadn't thought about them (it's been a while since I've used them) spells like Fear or Thunderclap COULD (and IMO, should) be modified by a mages spell strength.
Goliath Strongarm wrote:And before you go off the deep end, a first level wizard has the SAME power and potency on it as a level 15 wizard? Fear at least has a duration affected by the level. But, there's a 10th level mercenary, and Bob the 1st level Wizard casts Thunderclap. He has the same chance at success as Tim the 15th level Wizard. Heck, even THOTH, if he used straight magic powers, and none of his godly might, would have the same chance.
Goliath Strongarm wrote:Now, since that HF is magically created, do they get their bonus vs magic against it? Or their bonus vs HF? Whichever is higher? Both?
At this point, I'd probably let the player back out and return to #1 if he wanted to, but I'd never agree to #3.