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I have two questions for you all. This is really more related to the Palladium Megaversal System versus specifically for Rifts.

First, the base saving through versus Spell magic seems pretty wishy-washy. I'm using the Ultimate Edition and all that I'm seeing is "12-16 based on caster power level" or something to that effect. That's hardly precise. Can anyone direct me to something with a more decisive description? Maybe when is it 12 or 13, 14, etc...

Second question: how do you run attacks per Melee? Let's say I have someone with 4 attacks per Melee facing someone else with 7 attacks. Does the person with the 4 attacks get their actions first, last or scattered? Example (forgive the misuse of the "code" flag, it's the easiest way to create a table that I could quickly see):


Thoughts?

rrank5377 wrote:I have two questions for you all. This is really more related to the Palladium Megaversal System versus specifically for Rifts.

First, the base saving through versus Spell magic seems pretty wishy-washy. I'm using the Ultimate Edition and all that I'm seeing is "12-16 based on caster power level" or something to that effect. That's hardly precise. Can anyone direct me to something with a more decisive description? Maybe when is it 12 or 13, 14, etc...

If it's a spell cast as an invocation, then the target save is 12 plus any bonus to spell strength that the caster may have. If the caster has, say, +2 spell strength, then the target save is 14 (12 + 2).

If the spell is cast as a ritual, then the target save is 16. Spell strength does not add to the target for saving against a ritual.

If a spell gives a bonus or penalty to save, that is added or subtracted from the rolle, so if a spell is "-2 save", then you need to roll at least a 14 (14 - 2 = 12) to beat the save target of 12. Similarly, if a spell is "+2 save", then you only need to roll a 10 (10 + 2 = 12) to beat the save target of 12.

Some spells have special save rules that supersede what I've just described.

Hope that helps.

--flatline

rrank5377 wrote:I have two questions for you all. This is really more related to the Palladium Megaversal System versus specifically for Rifts.

First, the base saving through versus Spell magic seems pretty wishy-washy. I'm using the Ultimate Edition and all that I'm seeing is "12-16 based on caster power level" or something to that effect. That's hardly precise. Can anyone direct me to something with a more decisive description? Maybe when is it 12 or 13, 14, etc...

It depends on the caster in question. All save vs's magics start at 12 for level 1 characters. Spell strength then progresses according to each individual class's notations. there is no rule for all classes as to how fast it goes up. Some supplementary OCC's, alas, lack any note of spell strength progression, in which case the usual default is to have them progress the same as the ley line walker (the "default" mage class).

Ritual magic inherently takes time, but the base save is always 16 before spell strength, thus making rituals harder to resist.

spells that inflict curses have a base save of 15 before spell strength.

There are other odd variants here and there with some spells simply having innate penalties to save against.

Second question: how do you run attacks per Melee? Let's say I have someone with 4 attacks per Melee facing someone else with 7 attacks. Does the person with the 4 attacks get their actions first, last or scattered? Example (forgive the misuse of the "code" flag, it's the easiest way to create a table that I could quickly see):

Offically what happens is that the two go back and fourth for the first 4 rounds, then the guy with 7 attacks per melee takes the remaining 3 in a row. This applys no matter how many attacks over the opponent you have. if it's 20 vs 4, they trade for the first 4 attacks then take all remaining 16 in a row.

Charts like the one you made are not an uncommon houserule, but are just that, houserules.

I believe somewhere KS uses an example of boxing when explaining the attacks/melee round, with both fighters going back and forth until one is out of attacks, and then the one with attacks remaining throwing a 'flurry' which his opponent can only defend.

flatline wrote:*snip*
If the spell is cast as a ritual, then the target save is 16. Spell strength does not add to the target for saving against a ritual.
*snip*
--flatline

Can I ask where the source of this information is located? As far as I was aware Spell Strength also added to Ritual. Then again I can count on one hand the number of spell casters I have actually played and still use chopsticks.

(this is not a challenge, but a request).

Easiest one I can find is on page 164 of the old Rifts rulebook, in the Pursuit of Magic section, under "Spells, Rituals, Summoning, and OCC Powers." it says: "The Base Saving Throw to save vs ritual magic is 16! Spell strength bonuses are not applicable to ritual magic."

Eashamahel wrote:Easiest one I can find is on page 164 of the old Rifts rulebook, in the Pursuit of Magic section, under "Spells, Rituals, Summoning, and OCC Powers." it says: "The Base Saving Throw to save vs ritual magic is 16! Spell strength bonuses are not applicable to ritual magic."

Thank you, with that starting point I found the text in the RUE (which is what I use). Page 187, under the Magic Term section, in the definition of Spell Strength it says

RUE Page 187 wrote:Base Save vs Ritual Magic in 16. No Spell Strength bonuses usually apply to rituals

What I find interesting is the addition of the word 'usually'. It is a single word sure, but given the frequent copy/paste nature of such things it is a word that was deliberately added. Does this mean that some rituals gain the benefit, but not others? Or does it mean that some casters add their spell strength, but not others?

Spun this off to its own thread so as to not derail this one, please respond there to keep this one on topic.

Thank you all for the input! I'm usually more about the role-playing and intrigue, so sometimes system details trip me up.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It depends on the caster in question. All save vs's magics start at 12 for level 1 characters. Spell strength then progresses according to each individual class's notations. there is no rule for all classes as to how fast it goes up. Some supplementary OCC's, alas, lack any note of spell strength progression, in which case the usual default is to have them progress the same as the ley line walker (the "default" mage class).

Ritual magic inherently takes time, but the base save is always 16 before spell strength, thus making rituals harder to resist.

spells that inflict curses have a base save of 15 before spell strength.

There are other odd variants here and there with some spells simply having innate penalties to save against.

Second question: how do you run attacks per Melee? Let's say I have someone with 4 attacks per Melee facing someone else with 7 attacks. Does the person with the 4 attacks get their actions first, last or scattered? Example (forgive the misuse of the "code" flag, it's the easiest way to create a table that I could quickly see):

Offically what happens is that the two go back and fourth for the first 4 rounds, then the guy with 7 attacks per melee takes the remaining 3 in a row. This applys no matter how many attacks over the opponent you have. if it's 20 vs 4, they trade for the first 4 attacks then take all remaining 16 in a row.

Charts like the one you made are not an uncommon houserule, but are just that, houserules.

Where did you find that little gem?

Rifts Ultimate page 346 under Saving Throws.

As a houserule, I let people declare up to two actions per turn. Otherwise it is alternating activation in initiative order until everybody is out of actions. Also keep in mind that under the rules as written a character is able to forfeit its defense to act out of turn, simultaneously attacking its opponent.