Was it an Error to remove the Zentraedi so quickly?

[mech798]

Now, Word of God from HG pretty much has eliminated the post-Khyron zent uprisings, but equally appears (and I may be wrong here), to have ruled out the existence of very many zentraedi at all, anywhere-- they are, with the exception of those who have assimilated into human society, more or less extinct.

Now, I can see some reasons-- for one thing, you have to explain their absence in Southern Cross and Next Gen as any sort of distinct social group, and some of the earlier comics and books focusing on teh malcontent uprisings created the strong impression that humanity largely exterminated the survivors, something that I doubt Breetai or Myria would have tolerated. so from that viewpoint it makes sense to just move on.

BUT, on the other hand, the Zentraedi do present a fairly unique group-- they are arguably just as much the victims as the aggressors and yet are fully capable of adapting to changing circumstances, especially with the loss of their command. I also rather liked the idea of zentraedi enclaves that were too big to simply ignore, requiring more diplomatic methods to deal with them.

What say you? Was it a mistake to lragely remove the idea of zentraedi remnant forces from the continuity?

[jedi078]

Now, Word of God from HG pretty much has eliminated the post-Khyron zent uprisings, but equally appears (and I may be wrong here), to have ruled out the existence of very many zentraedi at all, anywhere-- they are, with the exception of those who have assimilated into human society, more or less extinct.

Now, I can see some reasons-- for one thing, you have to explain their absence in Southern Cross and Next Gen as any sort of distinct social group, and some of the earlier comics and books focusing on teh malcontent uprisings created the strong impression that humanity largely exterminated the survivors, something that I doubt Breetai or Myria would have tolerated. so from that viewpoint it makes sense to just move on.

BUT, on the other hand, the Zentraedi do present a fairly unique group-- they are arguably just as much the victims as the aggressors and yet are fully capable of adapting to changing circumstances, especially with the loss of their command. I also rather liked the idea of zentraedi enclaves that were too big to simply ignore, requiring more diplomatic methods to deal with them.

What say you? Was it a mistake to lragely remove the idea of zentraedi remnant forces from the continuity?

It is probably due to the licensing crap regarding Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] to have ruled out the existence of very many zentraedi at all, anywhere-- they are, with the exception of those who have assimilated into human society, more or less extinct.

Pretty much, yes... with the exception of those Zentradi who joined Breetai's Zentradi unit for the Expedition and Miriya, the Zentradi vanish entirely.

Now, I can see some reasons-- for one thing, you have to explain their absence [...]

Scott's dialogue in the New Generation got the ball rolling on this issue in '85. He implies they went extinct and says he'd like the Invid to do the same.

What say you? Was it a mistake to lragely remove the idea of zentraedi remnant forces from the continuity?

No... I think it was the right move for the sake of consistency between sagas, esp, in light of Scott's implication of their extinction. Prelude killed the last of them off, except Miriya, and that was almost certainly done, as jedi078 suggested, to avoid any legal ramifications from the owners of Macross. It would not surprise me at all if Zentradi remnants were out-of-bounds for the same reason.

[mech798]

Actually, I did some research and found a few friends who do more in IP law and evidently Harmony Gold *cannot* full stop, end of story ever make anythign else involving Macross. That includes Zentraedi. Now, they can sub-license merchandise, which is why Palladium can do the Macross saga, but in terms of ever making anything animated, nuh-uh. So even if Palladium made a zentraedi centered supplement that became the best selling thing ever, they couldn't take advantage of it, so this actually makes a fair amount of legal sense.

Unfortunate, but makes it quite understandable. Sorry for wasting everyone's time-- I didn't find that out until a bit later.

[Alrik Vas]

I'm curious as to what happened to the Zentradi in the Macross continuity now. You don't see an awful lot of them (though you see some human/zentradi mixes here and there). I wonder UN SPACY has any full sized contingents still.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, I did some research and found a few friends who do more in IP law and evidently Harmony Gold *cannot* full stop, end of story ever make anythign else involving Macross. [...]

Yeah, um... while I applaud you for taking the initiative to independently research the issue, that little fact has been out in the open for at least 17-18 years now. Carl Macek came out and explained it at Robocon 10 back in '95, and it got confirmed in the most explicit terms imaginable a few years later when HG made a slip that forced Macross's owners to sit down and go over who owned what.

I'm curious as to what happened to the Zentradi in the Macross continuity now.

Mostly, they blended right into human society and are treated no differently from a standard human. There are occasional issues with the odd few who don't adjust well to peace, but they're the minority by far.

You don't see an awful lot of them (though you see some human/zentradi mixes here and there).

What about the 300,000 Zentradi citizens of the 35th large-scale long-distance emigrant fleet (Macross-5) in Macross 7? That's one big group. There's that all-Zentradi New UN Spacy Marine Corps unit from Macross Frontier too, and the giant ship crews we see in Macross II and its prequels. Lots and lots of Zentradi if you know where to look.

I wonder UN SPACY has any full sized contingents still.

The ship crews in 2, and the NUNS 33rd Marines and SMS's Pixie Team in Frontier.

[glitterboy2098]

one of the nice things about the RPG is that we can fill in some of the gaps where HG's limits on new shows prevents them from going. eventually i'm hoping we'll get some info on the reconstruction period in 2nd ed's setting (it seems highly unlikely that Khyron was the only renegade. perhaps the most aggressive one, but i'd bet that you have groups in space acting as 'pirates', survivors from the grand fleet. and on the ground you could have plenty of small bands of rebels (like we see in the first wildstorm comic), with larger and better equipped renegades or unassimilated factions in some places. (might be a way to bring back the old 'zentraedi control zone' regions in a new fashion that fits better. ditto for the asian and african equivilents from 1st ed).
and lets not forget that you'd have plenty of warlords and non-UEG city-states to cause trouble as well.

also we can hopefully receive some info on the zent's that joined the earth forces.. personally i'd imagine most ended up micronized and blended into human society, with those that couldn't due to physical appearance or due to refusal to micronize going with the UEEF..the micronized ones being trained as regualr mecha pilots, and the full sized ones as part of a 'zentraedi auxiliary' still using their old ships and mecha.

[mech798]

I'm curious as to what happened to the Zentradi in the Macross continuity now. You don't see an awful lot of them (though you see some human/zentradi mixes here and there). I wonder UN SPACY has any full sized contingents still.

There are trillions of them still around in various independent fleets and such-- the Macross zentraedi were far more widely spread but have no actual single commander. Then you hae those who have assimilated into humanity (Macross frontier has a squadron of female power aces that work with the hero, for example) and then those who are simply allied with mankind, but retain their independence.

That's the big reason for the Macross exploration fleets-- humanity understands that the only way to avoid the danger of extermination is to spread out, since there are quite a number of fleets just as big and dangerous as the Dolza fleet.

[mech798]

Actually, I did some research and found a few friends who do more in IP law and evidently Harmony Gold *cannot* full stop, end of story ever make anythign else involving Macross. [...]

Yeah, um... while I applaud you for taking the initiative to independently research the issue, that little fact has been out in the open for at least 17-18 years now. Carl Macek came out and explained it at Robocon 10 back in '95, and it got confirmed in the most explicit terms imaginable a few years later when HG made a slip that forced Macross's owners to sit down and go over who owned what.

In general, I don't trust anything legal Carl Macek said. Ditto for HG. I had to find the court documents from teh Tokyo court and then talk to a couple of IP attorneys to make certain that what they said was true. My day job includes some legal reporting and you never, EVER trust what one party to a suit says.

[Chris0013]

I would say that there was assimilation into human society by a lot of them and they largely consider themselves human. We see very little of the planet between The Rain of Death and the end of the 2nd war so they could be all around...these are all micronized....of the malcontents, all the full sized were able to be hunted down but there are still micronized ones running around out there. As well there are groups that are neither. Micronized Zentraedi who went native in the jungles and wastelands of the world.

As far as out in space I would say there would be a dozen of so fleets left in addition to any fleets that are on guard duty for any factory satellites.

[DhAkael]

In answer to the post topic; Yes it WAS an error..and a very large and foolish one "IF" you intend to play everything as canon to the 'ROBOTECH' continuity.
If you're only using the Shadow Chron book for the RPG and Macross era, then you may chose to ignore the boneheaded (but sadly legally necessary) decision by HG & Pbooks for removing the entirety of the Zentraedi.

Even in Robotech it was said (in series 1), before HG had to retcon, that there were dozens if not hundreds of fleets almost the size of Dolza's scattered through the Milkyway.

But hey, HG picked up the idiot ball and tried to do something to Tatsunoko / Bigwest in an "uncomfortable place" with distribution & liscencing rights in North Am (re; Cut the originating studio out of any and all ability to sell the REAL product in 'merica AND by association, Canada). So HG reaps what it sowed. "NO ZENTRAEDI FOR YOU!"

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd give real money if phpBB would put a "Multiquote" button in the next iteration of their software... sheesh.

one of the nice things about the RPG is that we can fill in some of the gaps where HG's limits on new shows prevents them from going. [...]

Eh... yes and no, IMO. The RPG lets you go there if you want to make the material up yourself, but the way that Harmony Gold's tweaking the material, they're eliminating the gaps the RPG would be filling in. The extinction/departure of Zentradi survivors after 2014 is one example.

In general, I don't trust anything legal Carl Macek said. Ditto for HG. [...]

Macek was pretty honest and upfront about what was what back before 1999, when Harmony Gold made him into their PR sockpuppet and started indulging heavily in revisionist history. He gave a very frank, honest talk about the impact that all the limits on their access to the IP had on Robotech sequel development in an interview for Robocon 10. Interesting reading, if you can dig it up in the old comics from Summer '95.

I had to find the court documents from teh Tokyo court and then talk to a couple of IP attorneys to make certain that what they said was true. My day job includes some legal reporting and you never, EVER trust what one party to a suit says.

It shouldn't have been hard to find those, there are multiple Macross fansites with extensive FAQs on the subject for the uninitiated, and links to every major news article, court ruling, etc. I should know, I'm the one who both sourced and translated 'em for MacrossWorld's FAQ. Harmony Gold can legally use the Zentradi in merchandise (the RPG and the comic books are legally merchandise), but they backed away from it and used Prelude to throw anything that was either distinctively Macross or explicitly connected thereto by visuals because of the way they'd soured relations with the Japanese owners of the Macross IP.

I would say that there was assimilation into human society by a lot of them and they largely consider themselves human. [...]

Wouldn't fit with Scott's implication that the Zentradi are extinct (functionally or actually).

As far as out in space I would say there would be a dozen of so fleets left in addition to any fleets that are on guard duty for any factory satellites.

Assuming they're still alive... remember, Breetai annihilated the garrison force when he captured the factory satellite in the series, and per AotSC the UEEF's been going around capturing factory satellites.

[mech798]

Wow, I never realized Scott was so powerful! I mean, he says one line, and suddenly a people that apparently outnumbered humanity after the rain are *poof!* gone!

Seriously, the legal reasoning is fine and all, but the logic of this approach neither fits with the concepts of the show or the methodology the RPG has taken. Heck, with this approach, there should never be an actual Zentraedi centered source book, cause in less than a decade of their arrival, they become an utter non-factor anyhow.

That happens a lot in media though. Many cases of being "put on a bus" involved legal or pay issues. Of course the probelm for HG is that the very thing they can't use is by far the most popular part of hte robotech franchise. Most general anime fans remember macross, but ask them about new generation, or worse, southern cross... It didn't help that the most well written and 3d characters were pretty much all in Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wow, I never realized Scott was so powerful! I mean, he says one line, and suddenly a people that apparently outnumbered humanity after the rain are *poof!* gone!

It's not just his dialog... there's also the total (and understandable) absence of Zentradi in the latter two sagas and anyone who even is identified in passing as Zentradi or a half the powers that be need to explain.

If they're completely absent after 2014 in the series and the one person besides Dana who self-identifies as not being 100% human was grounds for confusion and surprise, that they went extinct is pretty much the only sensible explanation for their absence.

Seriously, the legal reasoning is fine and all, but the logic of this approach neither fits with the concepts of the show or the methodology the RPG has taken.

It fits fine with the show, as illustrated above... and HG went to some length to explain how it came to pass both in canon and the RPG.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it wrong, my friend.

Heck, with this approach, there should never be an actual Zentraedi centered source book, cause in less than a decade of their arrival, they become an utter non-factor anyhow.

Yeah, pretty much... but 1e had little in terms of common ground with RT proper, and 2e is out of material and looking to pad itself out in the name of having something with RT on its front coming out.

[DhAkael]

Thus the reason for my antipathy for "Robotech" (not Macross; Macross is gutten) in general and Harmony Gold in specific.

[ShadowLogan]

@Gryphon:
I have to disagree with you about the need for a Zentreadi SB as it can have a variety of uses:
-play Zentreadi characters (PCs and NPCs) better
-add some additional diversity to the inventory (potentially, 1E did introduce Force Fields on the Battlepods, and a few extra weapons, and mecha/vehicles) for encounters
-deck plans for ships is useful in a variety of roles

[glitterboy2098]

and don't forget we are still missing most of the zentraedi fleet's ship stats. the landing ship, the scout, the gunship/monitor, the smaller command ship.. not to mention that there have been a few other types we've seen in background shots that might be picked up for stats. and we've got things like the recovery pod and IIRC the landing pod that haven't been stated out yet. plus presumably the new 'experimental' stuff from the tactics game.. like the PBC and heavy particle cannon equipped FPA's, those new male PA, and so on.

[mech798]

and don't forget we are still missing most of the zentraedi fleet's ship stats. the landing ship, the scout, the gunship/monitor, the smaller command ship.. not to mention that there have been a few other types we've seen in background shots that might be picked up for stats. and we've got things like the recovery pod and IIRC the landing pod that haven't been stated out yet. plus presumably the new 'experimental' stuff from the tactics game.. like the PBC and heavy particle cannon equipped FPA's, those new male PA, and so on.

Yep-- and the fact is that the tremendous success of the tactics Kickstarter shows, IMO, that the majority of the fanbase is firmly wedded to the Macross era-- not Next Gen and Not Southern Cross. The fans can honestly take or leave another Next-Gen book, but really like the idea of a macross era book. I mean, would you buy a scenario adventure pack focusing SOLELY on Khyron's adventures, from when he was decanted to when he became the homicidal (even for the zentraedi) lunatic we all know and love? I know I would.

[Seto Kaiba]

@Gryphon:
I have to disagree with you about the need for a Zentreadi SB as it can have a variety of uses:
-play Zentreadi characters (PCs and NPCs) better [...]

Can't argue with that one... the Macross Saga source book was kind of weak in that respect.

-add some additional diversity to the inventory (potentially, 1E did introduce Force Fields on the Battlepods, and a few extra weapons, and mecha/vehicles) for encounters [...]

Yeah, but that stuff is 1e and non-OSM/non-canon, and with 2nd Edition making canon compliance a goal and largely just using whatever OSM content they can get their hands on without getting sued, that seems unlikely. With their emphasis being largely on sweeping anything Macross-related in any narrative context under the rug, I can't quite see HG and Palladium hashing out an expansion for a class of characters that stop mattering abruptly at the end of the Macross Saga.

-deck plans for ships is useful in a variety of roles

They don't seem to be doing deck plans for anything anymore, which is fine since the old Macross II books serve just fine in this regard for the Zentradi... particularly if you intend to run a game where the Zentradi don't vanish in 2014.

Yep-- and the fact is that the tremendous success of the tactics Kickstarter shows, IMO, that the majority of the fanbase is firmly wedded to the Macross era-- not Next Gen and Not Southern Cross. [...]

You don't need the Kickstarter to demonstrate that... the Robotech broadcast ratings going back even as far as the original 1985 airing prove the hell out of that, along with the merchandise sales, Robotech.com user polls, etc. That their fans are wedded to the Macross Saga above all else has been a persistent thorn in Robotech's side, which has been the root of pretty much every failure to continue the animated Robotech story.

The fans can honestly take or leave another Next-Gen book, but really like the idea of a macross era book. I mean, would you buy a scenario adventure pack focusing SOLELY on Khyron's adventures, from when he was decanted to when he became the homicidal (even for the zentraedi) lunatic we all know and love? I know I would.

At that point, it's a balancing act between Harmony Gold's desire to de-emphasize the Macross connection and shift the fanbase's collective attention towards the "Macross-ized" version of MOSPEADA they're calling Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and their desire to further exploit the Macross Saga the one guaranteed-sell that Robotech has. For now, with the "UEEF Marines" books on the horizon (however distantly) the emphasis seems to be more on trying their hardest to push attention away from the Macross Saga.

[jaymz]

There is a reaosn why SO many people out there have done Macross stuff for Robotech and not other things.

[mech798]

It's not just the fact that Macross has better designs. Let's face it-- the Zentraedi are far more interesting. THe Invide are 99 percent kill you dead slugs, and the Robotech masters are portrayed as being so unremittingly evil that there's no sense in dealing with them. But the Zentraedi not only got far more characterization, it was over a far wider range. You have the kill crazy enemies like Kyron, Honorable enemy/ally like Breetai, scientists, and then guys like the three spies who by and large just want to get on with being Minmei fanboys. Where an Invid hive is pretty much just an obstacle, that Zentraedi splinter group has a commander who will let you get past for some video records of a concert, a Commander who is honestly looking for a way to surrender and keep his honor, and a gonzo lunatic Glaug pilot who makes Khyron look well adjusted. The other two groups are, in comparison utterly 2D.

[Seto Kaiba]

There is a reaosn why SO many people out there have done Macross stuff for Robotech and not other things.

Personally, I think there's a simpler reason for it than just "Macross is better"... it's that most of Robotech's "new" and "original" content has been god awful, and the Macross stuff is pretty consistently cool-looking even when the TV series it's from sometimes goes off the deep end (Macross 7).

It's not just the fact that Macross has better designs. Let's face it-- the Zentraedi are far more interesting. THe Invide are 99 percent kill you dead slugs, and the Robotech masters are portrayed as being so unremittingly evil that there's no sense in dealing with them.

There is that too, yeah... but part of that (the Invid/Inbit being boring as hell) is the OSM's fault. The characterization of the Zor Lords/Robotech Masters is pretty much the fault of 1. Southern Cross being so bad it got canceled, and 2. a bunch of really bad characterization in the RT adaptation.