Why are human ship weapons ranges so low?

[mech798]

Now you can forgive the ARMD, they were supposedly built with an incomplete understanding of modern technology-- but the Tristar? I just noticed that it doesn't have a single direct fire weapon with a longer range than about 100 miles.

Zentraedi *light* ship mounted cannon have a range of about 11K miles.

This translates into an utter slaughter, that would be resemble a Roman Legion bravely advancing into teeth of a 1945 era Tank division.

But it honestly doesn't make any sense to me, because in the very first episode of robotech, you have it mentioned that 1. The enemy fired from around the moon's orbit and 2. that pretty much makes them untouchable because our guns can't hit them. You also have thousands of hulks with zentraedi guns to either grab and use or simply copy. Was there ever any rationale given for this?

[Seto Kaiba]

Now you can forgive the ARMD, they were supposedly built with an incomplete understanding of modern technology-- but the Tristar?

Harmony Gold's line on the ASC gear is that it's all pretty substandard... I suspect this is something influenced by the Tokugawa canon specs.

I just noticed that it doesn't have a single direct fire weapon with a longer range than about 100 miles.

Most of what's in the RPG is wrong, nonsense, or both.

For instance, the retractable anti-ship beam cannons are listed with a range of 11,000mi (17,600km), but the series dialog explicitly establishes the range for those guns as being well over a light second... that's 186,300mi+, in precision bombardment. So much is wrong there that it's hard to know where to begin. Like the missile stats claiming micro-missiles aren't guided, in direct contradiction of just about every time they're shown firing in the New Generation...

[mech798]

Now you can forgive the ARMD, they were supposedly built with an incomplete understanding of modern technology-- but the Tristar?

Harmony Gold's line on the ASC gear is that it's all pretty substandard... I suspect this is something influenced by the Tokugawa canon specs.

I sort of Wish HG had heard of or would be willing to use the "flight II" concept you see in the real world-- Just like we have the initial run of Argleigh Burkes and later runs, you could have easily handwaved that away with claiming that the original Tokugawa was a Flight I design, before they incorporated all the lessons of the Zentraedi conflict, and later examples included new systems while still being in the came general class for administrative purposes.

Because as it stands now, the SC wouldn't just lose against the Masters, a single zentraedi renegade ship could have destroyed their entire military without ever coming in range of their guns.

[jaymz]

Simple solution. I rewrite it. Only ay to get it right as you think it should be is to do it yourself.

[Seto Kaiba]

I sort of Wish HG had heard of or would be willing to use the "flight II" concept you see in the real world-- Just like we have the initial run of Argleigh Burkes and later runs, you could have easily handwaved that away with claiming that the original Tokugawa was a Flight I design, [...]

If you want someone to blame for the Masters Saga stuff not making sense, you should be railing against the "researchers" (sarcastic quotes) at the uRRG. The creators of Southern Cross didn't really sit down and work out the details of the non-critical designs of their series, so they just made up whatever they thought sounded OK... and, as writers, they aren't exactly up on military practice, technology, or anything else. Consequentially, pretty much all official coverage of ships or mecha from the Masters Saga is pure BS with no connection to the show.

(Heck, it even contradicts the show in a fair few places... like how they claim the Spartas' main gun is a projectile cannon that was upgraded to a beam gun. It's only ever referred to as a laser in the original and Robotech itself.)

From an in-universe perspective, I would assume that the Tokugawa-class remained rubbish because the UEDF/UEEF only built a couple of 'em before realizing the design was too dated to be effective and pushing the lot off on rear echelon details. In-universe design upgrades do exist, but apparently only one Tokugawa-class ship ever received them, and that ship was shot down immediately on its very first post-refit sortie. I'd also imagine the general technological stasis we know prevails in the Robotech universe (and the RPG) may be to blame... humanity doesn't really understand much of the technology they're using, so they don't advance very quickly (or at all, in the case of the RPG).

Because as it stands now, the SC wouldn't just lose against the Masters, a single zentraedi renegade ship could have destroyed their entire military without ever coming in range of their guns.

That's still better than what you'd get if you used pure OSM spec... then a single Oberth-class could probably totally annihilate the entire Southern Cross Army.

[jedi078]

Simple solution. I rewrite it. Only ay to get it right as you think it should be is to do it yourself.

Yep.

[drewkitty ~..~]

(warning, being blunt.) Cause they got nerfed so the non-educated in science and space combat could conceptulize the ranges so they could play space battles.

In RT1 the ranges for the Zentraedi energy turrets was 200,000 miles in space, half that in atmo.

[jaymz]

Doesn't fix the disparity he is talking about drew. Zentraedi still out range earth ships by a factor 100.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

If you want someone to blame for the Masters Saga stuff not making sense, you should be railing against the "researchers" (sarcastic quotes) at the uRRG.

Uh, no. Its purely Tommy Yune and his creation/inane fetishizing. The uRRG's files go with ranges similar to the 1st Edition Robotech RPG. The only weapons that have ranges even remotely like those in the 2nd Edition RPG are the rail gun and missile batteries.

That's still better than what you'd get if you used pure OSM spec... then a single Oberth-class could probably totally annihilate the entire Southern Cross Army.

How, pray tell?

[Seto Kaiba]

(warning, being blunt.) Cause they got nerfed so the non-educated in science and space combat could conceptulize the ranges so they could play space battles.

In RT1 the ranges for the Zentraedi energy turrets was 200,000 miles in space, half that in atmo.

Everybody got NERF'd, but not everybody got NERF'd to the same extent... the ranges were pretty similar originally, but they shrank them to the point where human ships never really get above a few hundred miles tops unless it's a massive superlarge scale beam weapon, and those only get about half the range they used to. jaymz is pretty much spot on in saying it became a situation where the Zentradi out-range human warships with their regular beam weaponry by 100x or so.

If you want someone to blame for the Masters Saga stuff not making sense, you should be railing against the "researchers" (sarcastic quotes) at the uRRG.

Uh, no. Its purely Tommy Yune and his creation/inane fetishizing. [...]

They're credited as providing the research/consultation on the RPG, man... read your books sometime. Tommy didn't make the specs for the Masters Saga mecha, that was provided from their little BS-a-thon, in lieu of actual research. You'll also please note that I didn't say it was copied from the uRRG, merely supplied by its authors.

That's still better than what you'd get if you used pure OSM spec... then a single Oberth-class could probably totally annihilate the entire Southern Cross Army.

How, pray tell?

For one, the RPG is not actually that far from the mark when it comes to how short-ranged the weapons on the Southern Cross Army's fleet are. The creators of Southern Cross were taking a lot of pointers from Gundam in that area, and as a result their ships are basically set up for combat at ranges of a few hundred kilometers at best. Their weaponry isn't nearly as advanced as that of the Macross universe (but on par or superior to that of MOSPEADA), and in practical terms the Macross ships massively out-range them with a maximum effective range of a light second or so.

There's also the question of differences in the scale of weaponry. Both Southern Cross and MOSPEADA are on Gundam's end of the energy weapon spectrum, where a megawatt laser or beam gun is a one-shot kill weapon. The Macross universe(s) are a setting where a laser or beam gun with an output of 10 megawatts or less would be made principally as a rapid-fire sub-weapon like the head or wing root lasers on VFs, and "respectable" beam weapons would be dozens or hundreds of megawatts per shot*. Ship-to-ship beam weapons eclipse that handily. The Oberth can hit significantly harder than the SCA ships, and from significantly farther away... even without its sizable arsenal of reaction warheads. It could easily snipe Southern Cross Army ships from too far away for them to return fire, and then wade in to wipe out Glorie's few cities with its missile armament.


* "Dozens" is the exact term used to describe the Strike Valkyrie's beam cannon on a per-shot basis (Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2 pg25). To date, Macross's highest stated rating for a fighter-carried laser or particle beam weapon is 750MW per shot, the cannon mounted on the SF-3A Lancer II, which was designed for light anti-warship use (Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet, original series, UN Spacy 16A). The VF-1's coaxial laser weaponry is a collection of 5 megawatt rapid-fire pulsed lasers firing 100 discharges per second, and similar coaxial weapons on other variable fighters have been identified at just under 10 megawatts a shot. (Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 pg45 and Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur Vol.1 pg42)

EDIT: Added source citations.

[Pouncer]

I decided to simply not worry about the whys and just go with most capital beam weapons having rangers around a light second. However, based on what we see on screen their "effective range" against moving targets is much less, probably a few 1000 miles, but that would be more an issue of effective sensors and targetting software than the weapon itself.

-POUNCER

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] However, based on what we see on screen their "effective range" against moving targets is much less, probably a few 1000 miles, but that would be more an issue of effective sensors and targetting software than the weapon itself.

I'd have to say, based on the series, that it depends on the size of the target... since standards for accuracy change fairly severely between sagas. The Macross Saga showed that the Zentradi had no trouble hitting (or deliberately missing with a minuscule margin of error) surface targets on Earth or moving starships in Earth orbit from their position in lunar orbit. That speaks to some pretty insane precision. Hitting small, agile targets like 13m long fighters at closer ranges provided to be a little tougher, but still manageable. The Macross itself, firing through the curvature of the Earth, still bullseyed a Zentradi ship hundreds of thousands of kilometers out with its main gun like it was nothing... and that was firing on automatic.

By the time we get to the New Generation and the Battle of Reflex Point, human starship-grade beam weaponry is only used at extremely close ranges of a few dozen to a few hundred kilometers, and is useless against anything smaller or more agile than a stationary starship. Even their mega-scale weapons and CIWS have difficulty scoring hits at such short ranges in the RTSC version too...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

They're credited as providing the research/consultation on the RPG, man... read your books sometime.

So am I, last time I checked. So what?

Tommy didn't make the specs for the Masters Saga mecha

Yes, he did.

The creators of Southern Cross were taking a lot of pointers from Gundam in that area, and as a result their ships are basically set up for combat at ranges of a few hundred kilometers at best. Their weaponry isn't nearly as advanced as that of the Macross universe (but on par or superior to that of MOSPEADA), and in practical terms the Macross ships massively out-range them with a maximum effective range of a light second or so.

There's also the question of differences in the scale of weaponry. Both Southern Cross and MOSPEADA are on Gundam's end of the energy weapon spectrum, where a megawatt laser or beam gun is a one-shot kill weapon. The Macross universe(s) are a setting where a laser or beam gun with an output of 10 megawatts or less would be made principally as a rapid-fire sub-weapon like the head or wing root lasers on VFs, and "respectable" beam weapons would be dozens or hundreds of megawatts per shot*. Ship-to-ship beam weapons eclipse that handily. The Oberth can hit significantly harder than the SCA ships, and from significantly farther away... even without its sizable arsenal of reaction warheads. It could easily snipe Southern Cross Army ships from too far away for them to return fire, and then wade in to wipe out Glorie's few cities with its missile armament.

Um, excuse me, but you're the one who repeatedly states that there is next to no information regarding the Southern Cross warships in the OSM. Now you're claiming you have reliable specs for the weaponry? I'm calling BS. Please, provide anything akin to proof of such claims.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Doesn't fix the disparity he is talking about drew. Zentraedi still out range earth ships by a factor 100.

I was answering the "why" question in the topic title.
Even in RT1 most of the zent weapons (200k miles in space, half of that when in atmo) outranged most the RDF weapons (16 miles).

If you remember that humans are newcomers to the space and don't have a fully developed starship weapons tech (i.e.: they are newbs), then you will understand the other "Why" the title question asked.

So changing the ranges on the weapons would take it out of setting concept.

[Seto Kaiba]

Um, excuse me, but you're the one who repeatedly states that there is next to no information regarding the Southern Cross warships in the OSM.

That's still the case, yes... but we have a reasonable amount of information on the general tech setting via the promotional materials published in The Anime magazine issues during Summer '84. Southern Cross isn't that far ahead of the MOSPEADA universe, technologically. Both series have settings in which the peak of humanity's weapons tech are low powered (comparatively) laser cannons and rudimentary particle beam technology. In both cases, humanity hasn't come up with anything more potent than conventional thermonuclear power for large-scale power generation. Their military methods aren't even all that different, really... both the Southern Cross Army and Mars Colony forces tactically rely on closing with a target and launching large numbers of short-range space fighters, supported by light beam artillery.

If megawatt lasers and conventional nuclear ordinance are the be-all, end-all of their arsenal... they'd be a little outclassed going up against a Macross universe ship with gigawatt or terawatt-scale dimensional beam weaponry and supernukes.

Now you're claiming you have reliable specs for the weaponry? I'm calling BS. Please, provide anything akin to proof of such claims.

Ever since Colonel Wolfe tore into me (justifiably) for bashing SDC:SC without giving my best effort to research the series to the best of my ability, I've made it my business to track down all of the few publications that covered the series. I've been going over those with a fine-toothed comb, and found that I'm generally much kinder towards the series after I learned what the creators were trying to do... even if they went about it in a rather misguided fashion.

[Pouncer]

I'd have to say, based on the series, that it depends on the size of the target... since standards for accuracy change fairly severely between sagas. The Macross Saga showed that the Zentradi had no trouble hitting (or deliberately missing with a minuscule margin of error) surface targets on Earth or moving starships in Earth orbit from their position in lunar orbit. That speaks to some pretty insane precision. Hitting small, agile targets like 13m long fighters at closer ranges provided to be a little tougher, but still manageable. The Macross itself, firing through the curvature of the Earth, still bullseyed a Zentradi ship hundreds of thousands of kilometers out with its main gun like it was nothing... and that was firing on automatic.

I was thinking more of the big space battle where the huge fleet couldn't lay more than the occasional hit to the SDF1 or its Zentradi escorts. I'm gonna go with Stormtrooper Syndrome, only accurate when plot dictates.

By the time we get to the New Generation and the Battle of Reflex Point, human starship-grade beam weaponry is only used at extremely close ranges of a few dozen to a few hundred kilometers, and is useless against anything smaller or more agile than a stationary starship. Even their mega-scale weapons and CIWS have difficulty scoring hits at such short ranges in the RTSC version too...

I certainly ignore alot of those stats, they just don't make sense.

Perhaps they have a bit of Star Trek syndrome, no matter how far apart the ships are they're shown to be within spitting distance to make it more dramatic.

-POUNCER

[Seto Kaiba]

I was thinking more of the big space battle where the huge fleet couldn't lay more than the occasional hit to the SDF1 or its Zentradi escorts. I'm gonna go with Stormtrooper Syndrome, only accurate when plot dictates.

Have ye forgotten? At the time, the SDF-1 and the Zentradi ships were blasting ALL Zentradi communications frequencies with psychological warfare material... the crews of the ships being attacked were being shocked/stunned/horrified by their exposure to foreign concepts like music, interaction with the opposite sex, physical intimacy, romance, and so on. It isn't something happening offscreen either, the Zentradi defectors specifically propose this tactic to the bridge crew, and they show its effect on the Zentradi crews during the attack run... most of them are frozen in shock thanks to the broadcasts their communications network is being hammered with.

(They also make it clear that the defectors and SDF-1 are specifically targeting command ships to further disturb the fleet's tactical cohesion... Exedore points out that fleets which lose their command ships follow standing orders to withdraw.)

[mech798]

I also have a bit of fanon for that-- deploying the entire grand fleet was evidently something that if it had ever been done before, hadn't been done very often. If so, it was possible it wsa less effective than the number of ships would indicate, given that it was fighting a more organized force that had a somewhat simpler objective (escort the SDF-1 to the base and then get out of town).

[ShadowLogan]

Now you can forgive the ARMD, they were supposedly built with an incomplete understanding of modern technology-- but the Tristar? I just noticed that it doesn't have a single direct fire weapon with a longer range than about 100 miles.

Zentraedi *light* ship mounted cannon have a range of about 11K miles.

This translates into an utter slaughter, that would be resemble a Roman Legion bravely advancing into teeth of a 1945 era Tank division.

But it honestly doesn't make any sense to me, because in the very first episode of robotech, you have it mentioned that 1. The enemy fired from around the moon's orbit and 2. that pretty much makes them untouchable because our guns can't hit them. You also have thousands of hulks with zentraedi guns to either grab and use or simply copy. Was there ever any rationale given for this?

Short answer is (IMHO) likely that stats are being made to emulate/fit-into their Rifts-lines to some degree. We can see it in other places in the 2E.

Aside from the lunar-orbit bombardment of Earth, an idea of the range of weapons is sparse to non-existent via the dialogue of the show.

[Seto Kaiba]

Short answer is (IMHO) likely that stats are being made to emulate/fit-into their Rifts-lines to some degree. We can see it in other places in the 2E.

Yeah, I think ShadowLogan has the truth of it... a lot of what's wrong in 2E is the result of trying to force RT to fit neatly into compatibility with other megaversal games.

[jaymz]

Short answer is (IMHO) likely that stats are being made to emulate/fit-into their Rifts-lines to some degree. We can see it in other places in the 2E.

Yeah, I think ShadowLogan has the truth of it... a lot of what's wrong in 2E is the result of trying to force RT to fit neatly into compatibility with other megaversal games.

Then in my opinion they failed at that too

[Seto Kaiba]

Short answer is (IMHO) likely that stats are being made to emulate/fit-into their Rifts-lines to some degree. We can see it in other places in the 2E.

Yeah, I think ShadowLogan has the truth of it... a lot of what's wrong in 2E is the result of trying to force RT to fit neatly into compatibility with other megaversal games.

Then in my opinion they failed at that too

Hey, nobody said they did a good job of it... we just said they tried.

[jaymz]

Short answer is (IMHO) likely that stats are being made to emulate/fit-into their Rifts-lines to some degree. We can see it in other places in the 2E.

Yeah, I think ShadowLogan has the truth of it... a lot of what's wrong in 2E is the result of trying to force RT to fit neatly into compatibility with other megaversal games.

Then in my opinion they failed at that too

Hey, nobody said they did a good job of it... we just said they tried.

True. Sad thing is even touch of decent due digence and not only could they have managed making more on par an usable for Rifts or Phaseworld, they could have made the entire line more internally consistent if not completely true to osm canon for southern cross and new gen.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

True. Sad thing is even touch of decent due digence and not only could they have managed making more on par an usable for Rifts or Phaseworld, they could have made the entire line more internally consistent if not completely true to osm canon for southern cross and new gen.

Well, the Rules as Written for Phaseworld show that Robotech should be even more advanced than the forces of The Three Galaxies IIRC.....

[jaymz]

Oh I agree fully and in most ways my rewrites do just that