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Okay, the new generation ships are, well frankly pretty bad. They're largely less heavily armed even then th eSC ships, have almost no point defense (compared to Macross era ships) and probably would make the zentraedi laugh themselves to death. The biggest ships, the Ikazuichi's aren't so much warships as space going Marine Corps LHAs. The Unarmed Horizon shuttles which are supposed to drop forces directly into the teeth of an enemy known for swarm attacks...well you get the point.

But the view of space station liberty (the robotech factory) in TSC shows that they had little problem with production. There's not much reason why they couldn't have shown up in a fleet of redesigned zentraedi hulls, combining the ability to have heavy armor and lots 'o point defense with a main battery that could shoot at reflex point, from oh, say the moon, which incidentally would make the invid have to come to them.

Now of course the actual "out of setting" answer is easy-- the origional series wasn't linked, so of course the ships in New Generaiton wouldn't have any influences from macross and due to legal issues the TSC ships couldn't and in any case it would be a bit strange if a show supposedly happening at the same time resulted in lots of new ships showing up.

But in setting, how can you justify such an odd, and on the surface foolish decision? The leaders of the UEEF included veterens such as Rick Hunger and Lisa, as well as Breetai and Exedore so they had a vast amount of practical expeirence. So there should be some reason that seems logical, however flawed, as to why these ships were designed as they were.

I look at this way. The UEEF had bad planing and they have other classes of ships we have not seen to fill in the holes in the TO&E for ships.

As for the lack of PDS on ships: use of mobile mecha screens where determined to be better than PDS (all ships appear to be carriers).

The bad side of not listening to your Zentraedi advisors on space combat because 'they were on the losing side'.

"Well, I don't think the Invid would be impressed by the Minmei Attack."

I think the problem with that was that Rick, Lisa, etc, knew just what a close thing it had been. Now, OTH, we don't really know how politically powerful they were-- with the death of Gloval, it may be that Rick and Lisa lost control of some of the design process, especially if we assume that they were absent for a long period of time while the main UEEF was building up its forces.

mech798 wrote:The biggest ships, the Ikazuichi's aren't so much warships as space going Marine Corps LHAs. The Unarmed Horizon shuttles which are supposed to drop forces directly into the teeth of an enemy known for swarm attacks...well you get the point. [...]

That's EXACTLY the design reasoning behind them... they are not space warships, they're designed for one thing only: orbit-to-surface assault. That is, after all what the original intent of going to the homeworld of the Robotech Masters... to preemptively kick their teeth in. The protracted liberation action the UEEF ended up in presumably involved a lot of planetary assaults.

mech798 wrote:There's not much reason why they couldn't have shown up in a fleet of redesigned zentraedi hulls, combining the ability to have heavy armor and lots 'o point defense with a main battery that could shoot at reflex point, from oh, say the moon, which incidentally would make the invid have to come to them. [...]

That's assuming there were any Zentradi ships intact enough for them to adapt... by all available information, surviving Zentradi warships were VERY thin on the ground.

Well, they had the factory station, which in robotech, unlike Macross, was supposedly a general purpose fabrication center for the entire zentraedi war machine, so they should have at least been able to produce some of the big zentraedi cannon. That's really the big problem that I think faces trying to put these things together-- we know that the zentraedi could fire, accurately, from lunar orbit and expect to hit things in earth orbit. (i think the close bombardment of macross island was from ships actually in earth orbit, but then that was *very* accurate fire).

The advantage of light speed weapons wioth that sort of range isn't just obvious, it's overwhelming. (even assuming radically faster speeds than we saw in the show, missiles woudl be useless at such ranges). Heck, this was known all the way back in WWII with the emphasis on longer ranged weapons.

Again the reqal reason-- that the three chapters were originally in different universes, is the simplest but I'm trying to come up with some sort of reasonable idea that doesn't require a statue of Rick Hunter as Atlas , carrying the Idiot Planet.

mech798 wrote:Well, they had the factory station, which in robotech, unlike Macross, was supposedly a general purpose fabrication center for the entire zentraedi war machine, [...]

To be fair, the factory satellite captured in the original Macross series does become a working shipyard where, among other things, mass-produced Macross-class warships were built.

mech798 wrote:That's really the big problem that I think faces trying to put these things together-- we know that the zentraedi could fire, accurately, from lunar orbit and expect to hit things in earth orbit. (i think the close bombardment of macross island was from ships actually in earth orbit, but then that was *very* accurate fire).

On this front, I think we have a canon answer in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. Human engineers had considerable difficulty replicating certain technologies with any reliability, so it's probably not a matter of humanity opting not to use this advanced Zentradi technology... but rather of humanity not having the know-how and precision to accurately replicate the Zentradi technology in question.

mech798 wrote:Again the reqal reason-- that the three chapters were originally in different universes, is the simplest but I'm trying to come up with some sort of reasonable idea that doesn't require a statue of Rick Hunter as Atlas , carrying the Idiot Planet.

You might be in for a disappointment on that front then.

mech798 wrote:Well, they had the factory station, which in robotech, unlike Macross, was supposedly a general purpose fabrication center for the entire zentraedi war machine, so they should have at least been able to produce some of the big zentraedi cannon.

The problem with this is that the factory satellite(s) that Earth captured may not be in the best of shape. Recall that the 1st Satellite captured may have been down permanently with regard to Regult production (at minimum that single line). Who knows what other lines may look like on the Satellite. That may turn the RFS's from equipped factories into nothing more than a huge warehouse with malfunctioning equipment to be replaced.

A reason for the lack of use of those big beam weapons might come down to environmental. Just how much has Earth's ecosystem recovered and is the UEEF ready to set that recovery back.

ShadowLogan wrote:

mech798 wrote:Well, they had the factory station, which in robotech, unlike Macross, was supposedly a general purpose fabrication center for the entire zentraedi war machine, so they should have at least been able to produce some of the big zentraedi cannon.

The problem with this is that the factory satellite(s) that Earth captured may not be in the best of shape. Recall that the 1st Satellite captured may have been down permanently with regard to Regult production (at minimum that single line). Who knows what other lines may look like on the Satellite. That may turn the RFS's from equipped factories into nothing more than a huge warehouse with malfunctioning equipment to be replaced.

A reason for the lack of use of those big beam weapons might come down to environmental. Just how much has Earth's ecosystem recovered and is the UEEF ready to set that recovery back.

Further back then dionsaur killer class Neutron-S missiles?

The only in-setting reason behind the ships they made for the mission to Tirol and after that I can see is that much like Kaiba said, humans lacked the technical expertise the Robotech Masters had when designing the Zentradi arsenal.

I think this is bunk, though. I don't have 2nd Edition yet, but if i recall, 1st Edition SDF-1 weapons had pretty good range. The reflex beam cannons were high damage, high volume of fire and had immense range. Now, if they were just the 8 weapons aside the main reflex cannon that were still intact after the crash, that's different.

Lost Seraph wrote:Their PDS isn't super bad, since the original ships the UEEF used were the Tristar and Tokugawa class (which has excellent PDS and carries over a thousand fighters, drawn from robotech.com). Plus UEEF doctrine favors transforming fighters used for PDS, while the fleet is designed to fight large starships/capital fleets. The UEEF constantly underestimates the Invid threat based on their conflict with the Regent, because the Regis put all her eggs in one basket. If you take either trek (primary or secondary canon), the Sentinels fought large amounts of ground actions to free planets held by the Regent, and their fleets clashed against Richards just a few times. Why do you think the Alpha and Beta have all of those missiles? Fighting swarms requires maneuverability, large amount of smaller units equipped with area firepower, and/or large scale area denial weapons. Given the Synchro Cannon and Shadow Cloaking deployed on the 3rd fleet, the New Generation ships tear apart the Invid something fierce, but they can't match the numbers because they underestimated again. I would say that the fleets did pretty well for humanity, given that faulty intelligence and doctrine has destroyed many fleets in history (Midway and Pearl Harbor come to mind, or Leyte Gulf).

However, Macross does have cooler ships. Their PDS/ship firepower is far greater, because they keep running into alien races deploying awesome mecha or are leftover enemies of the Protoculture/Robotech Masters. If you think the Invid are truly scary, go watch Frontier and witness the Vajra.

Especially the big Vajra battleships.

ShadowLogan wrote:A reason for the lack of use of those big beam weapons might come down to environmental. Just how much has Earth's ecosystem recovered and is the UEEF ready to set that recovery back.

They seemed awfully willing to nuke the hell out of it to oust the Invid, so presumably they're of the opinion that it'll take a good deal of damage before they reach a level they'd call "Too much".

Alrik Vas wrote:The only in-setting reason behind the ships they made for the mission to Tirol and after that I can see is that much like Kaiba said, humans lacked the technical expertise the Robotech Masters had when designing the Zentradi arsenal.

The 2nd Edition RPG expands on the remarks I alluded to from The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles... there's the implication that not only is humanity kind of rubbish at building advanced systems like fold drives, they weren't great at building reflex furnaces either and used salvaged hardware whenever possible.

Alrik Vas wrote:I don't have 2nd Edition yet, but if i recall, 1st Edition SDF-1 weapons had pretty good range. The reflex beam cannons were high damage, high volume of fire and had immense range. Now, if they were just the 8 weapons aside the main reflex cannon that were still intact after the crash, that's different.

2nd Edition's scaled things back rather a lot on that front, IIRC.

Lost Seraph wrote:Their PDS isn't super bad, since the original ships the UEEF used were the Tristar and Tokugawa class (which has excellent PDS and carries over a thousand fighters, drawn from robotech.com). [...]

"Excellent" isn't a word I would use to describe it, that's for sure. The RT.com stats are pretty exaggerated, compared to what's shown in-series.

Lost Seraph wrote:Plus UEEF doctrine favors transforming fighters used for PDS, while the fleet is designed to fight large starships/capital fleets.

This doesn't tally with what's actually said and shown, though. As far as the official stats go, the Tokugawa-class is emphatically not designed for ship-to-ship combat and relies on its fighters for its offensive punch, the same as practically every other ship used by the UEDF and UEEF in Robotech's latter two sagas. The fleet is pretty much invariably just meant to get large numbers of fighters into range of the target, and otherwise is armed (often minimally or poorly) for pure defense rather than going on the offensive. This trend didn't change until Shadow Chronicles, when the big guns the UEEF had acquired for the job turned out to be sabotaged.

Lost Seraph wrote:Given the Synchro Cannon and Shadow Cloaking deployed on the 3rd fleet, the New Generation ships tear apart the Invid something fierce, but they can't match the numbers because they underestimated again. [...]

Actually, taken from the original series, just because the Invid couldn't see the power signatures of the ships and mecha as they usually did didn't mean they were unable to fight them. The Regess demonstrated that she could see shadow fighters just fine on several occasions. The UEEF was, if anything, overconfident in its new stealth technology.

Lost Seraph wrote:However, Macross does have cooler ships. Their PDS/ship firepower is far greater, because they keep running into alien races deploying awesome mecha or are leftover enemies of the Protoculture/Robotech Masters. If you think the Invid are truly scary, go watch Frontier and witness the Vajra.

Well, yeah... the Macross universe puts pretty heavy emphasis on the anti-ship capabilities of mecha, which means a robust anti-aircraft defense is pretty much a must. The Macross-class fortresses had a few hundred destroids and a number of fixed gun and missile emplacements for their protection, and even the smaller ships produced after the first war (such as the Northampton-class escorts) had 18 or more point-defense guns positioned to provide all-around anti-air coverage*. They followed a more real-world model, with large numbers of escorts protecting a small number of carriers or battleships, with each ship designed for reasonably balanced performance.

Robotech's United Earth Forces have a somewhat different tactical doctrine, since no enemy after the Zentradi really had the firepower (or willingness to be cavalier about their firepower) to really threaten starships. Their focus shifted more towards planetary assault operations, developing warships that were exemplary in moving large numbers of combat mecha from the proverbial Point A to Point B, at the expense of those ships being largely useless in any other capacity and almost defenseless if they're caught on the back foot. They were fine so long as they were fighting an enemy that couldn't bring superior numbers of expendable troops to bear... but once the UEEF fleet couldn't cover its deficiencies in quality through superior numbers, they were utterly hosed.

* The official number given for the Northampton-class beam CIWS in official spec.

mech798 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

mech798 wrote:Well, they had the factory station, which in robotech, unlike Macross, was supposedly a general purpose fabrication center for the entire zentraedi war machine, so they should have at least been able to produce some of the big zentraedi cannon.

The problem with this is that the factory satellite(s) that Earth captured may not be in the best of shape. Recall that the 1st Satellite captured may have been down permanently with regard to Regult production (at minimum that single line). Who knows what other lines may look like on the Satellite. That may turn the RFS's from equipped factories into nothing more than a huge warehouse with malfunctioning equipment to be replaced.

A reason for the lack of use of those big beam weapons might come down to environmental. Just how much has Earth's ecosystem recovered and is the UEEF ready to set that recovery back.

Further back then dionsaur killer class Neutron-S missiles?

Well the N-S missiles where only brought in for "scorched earth" and as a last resort for the most recent liberation attempt (10th and 21st MD did not have them). Nor was I entirely focused on Ep84/85/TSC, was thinking more for the earlier attempts (10th and 21st MD) since the last one had that "if we can't have a habitable Earth no one can" vibe going for it.

It also helps that the NS Missiles power was vastly under estimated by the UEEF, plus they likely can be aborted after launch I would suspect up until a certain point.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:Their PDS isn't super bad, since the original ships the UEEF used were the Tristar and Tokugawa class (which has excellent PDS and carries over a thousand fighters, drawn from robotech.com). [...]

"Excellent" isn't a word I would use to describe it, that's for sure.

It’s not a word you seem inclined to use in, of, for, or about anything Robotech. It’s your opinion, and that’s fine. But seeing as how I can’t recall SC ships and shuttles being taken down en mass by bioroids or assault carriers, I’d say at the very least the PDS did its job well and consistently.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lost Seraph wrote:Plus UEEF doctrine favors transforming fighters used for PDS, while the fleet is designed to fight large starships/capital fleets.

This doesn't tally with what's actually said and shown, though. As far as the official stats go, the Tokugawa-class is emphatically not designed for ship-to-ship combat and relies on its fighters for its offensive punch, the same as practically every other ship used by the UEDF and UEEF in Robotech's latter two sagas. The fleet is pretty much invariably just meant to get large numbers of fighters into range of the target, and otherwise is armed (often minimally or poorly) for pure defense rather than going on the offensive. This trend didn't change until Shadow Chronicles, when the big guns the UEEF had acquired for the job turned out to be sabotaged.

With the exception of the Tokugawa-class, that’s completely inaccurate when it comes to the Masters Saga. Southern Cross ships actively assault Masters ships, generally engaging first with beam weaponry then launching salvos from their numerous large missile silos. Conveniently enough, Robotech.com confirms what the footage shows, and the RPG is right in line. So while assaulting ships directly would also be under the purview of ship-based fighters…or, perhaps, it would be better to say would have been if it wasn’t for the fact that attacks by the SC’s land-based fighters hadn’t already disproved the notion of a pure-fighter assault being effective… the way we see the Southern Cross ships fight with the weapons they bear puts paid to the notion they don’t slug it out with other ships.



As for the original inquiry...the ships and the doctrine the UEEF used weren't designed to fight the Regiss bunkered down on Earth with huge numbers of actual Invid as opposed to Inorganics. They would have emerged first during the Pioneer mission and later developed against the Regent's forces and empire-building strategy. On top of that, they drastically underestimated the Regis's forces likely because the Regent used tiny occupation forces of mostly Inorganics to hold worlds. That hand-waves fairly well why the UEEF seems caught with it's pants down.

Of course, even if the ships had been designed with pure awesome and built with awesomonium shooting turbo-awesome cannons, they still would have been forced to fail in their mission since the plot required the use of the Neutron-S last resort for the sake of the "scorched earth is bad and maybe it was all a misunderstanding/communication trumps raw force" aesop.

well, LLA shows the 15th Division has a Garfish they use to evac on in 2031 when the invid assault earth...

For my setting I went with the huge resource cost of the Zent ships, both to make and to crew. The resources to make a "mid sized" Zent ship, or even just convert an existing Zent ship to a "mostly" human/micronian sized crew could instead be used to produce a dozzen smaller ships.

When it comes to crew you either have to crew them with giants or humans. Giants are something that would require huge supplies of food, especially if the crews had addapted to terran fare instead of the Zentradi processed "slop." And that's not considering how reluctant humans were to have lots of giants working for them.

If you go with the human sized crew you have to refit much of the interiors to allow for the humans and the resources for that could be used to build many ships on their own.

I followed the reasoning that the ASC/early Expeditionary Force ships were of designed before successful integration of Zentradi tech. By the time integration was possible insufficient resources were available for the task.

In my storyline as the Sentinels' worlds were freed and more resources became available a 3rd generation of more "warshippy" craft were built (Based on the MarcrossII designs) but they didn't have large enough mecha compliments and the generation 4 designs (Ikazuchi, etc) were built.

As for the unarmed transports like the Horizon, it's pretty common practice for modern transports to be unarmed or lightly armed at best, probably to avoid calling attention to themselves in combat situations.

-POUNCER

Funny enough, if you cut a Zentradi Flagship down to "equivalent human size", it's roughly the length of the SDF-1. So a human monitor type ship (like what the SDF-1 was originally if i recall) should only be about 200M long, rather than a kilometer. It's a good example of what you have to go through to make a zentradi vessel converted over to human standards. You end up with 5 times the crew and a lot of empty space to load a colony of humans on.

Future designs are what they are. Honestly, the only issues I REALLY have with them are that their primary anti-warship weapons have terrible excuses for range/damage and there isn't enough built-in point defense.

EDIT: And they use Alphas instead of VF-1's.

Alrik Vas wrote:Funny enough, if you cut a Zentradi Flagship down to "equivalent human size", it's roughly the length of the SDF-1.

Smaller, actually... the scale factor is 5x in all dimensions, so a scaled-down Zentradi fleet command battleship would only be about 800m long, to the SDF-1's 1,210m long.

Alrik Vas wrote:So a human monitor type ship (like what the SDF-1 was originally if i recall) should only be about 200M long, rather than a kilometer.

About 250m.

Alrik Vas wrote:Future designs are what they are. Honestly, the only issues I REALLY have with them are that their primary anti-warship weapons have terrible excuses for range/damage and there isn't enough built-in point defense.

EDIT: And they use Alphas instead of VF-1's.

Personally, what's always bugged me about the later ship designs isn't their fighter complement or anything aesthetic... it's the occasional, bewilderingly bone-headed design choices that render their armament either inefficient or useless. Most of the New Generation's ships suffer from this to some degree, with their turrets exclusively confined to their dorsal hulls (as though they pulled a Star Trek II and forgot space is a three-dimensional battlefield). The VLS hatches that several ships sprouted in RTSC make even less sense. All told, the gold medal definitely goes to the pre-refit Ikazuchi, which not only has purely dorsal armament, fully six of its eight gun turrets are unable to cover its port side due to obstruction of their fire-arcs by the bridge tower. That's one hell of a huge gap for a ship with no AA defense to speak of.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Funny enough, if you cut a Zentradi Flagship down to "equivalent human size", it's roughly the length of the SDF-1.

Smaller, actually... the scale factor is 5x in all dimensions, so a scaled-down Zentradi fleet command battleship would only be about 800m long, to the SDF-1's 1,210m long.

Alrik Vas wrote:So a human monitor type ship (like what the SDF-1 was originally if i recall) should only be about 200M long, rather than a kilometer.

About 250m.

Picky-picky.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Personally, what's always bugged me about the later ship designs isn't their fighter complement or anything aesthetic... it's the occasional, bewilderingly bone-headed design choices that render their armament either inefficient or useless. Most of the New Generation's ships suffer from this to some degree, with their turrets exclusively confined to their dorsal hulls (as though they pulled a Star Trek II and forgot space is a three-dimensional battlefield). The VLS hatches that several ships sprouted in RTSC make even less sense. All told, the gold medal definitely goes to the pre-refit Ikazuchi, which not only has purely dorsal armament, fully six of its eight gun turrets are unable to cover its port side due to obstruction of their fire-arcs by the bridge tower. That's one hell of a huge gap for a ship with no AA defense to speak of.

It's made worse by the limitations of the animation-- while I can accept VLS missles, because they actually reduce the needed handling equipment when cmopared to the old style 1960s missle cruiser launchers, the cannon really made no sense.

But, they make a bit more sense if you have ships doing what the new Yamato 2199 is doing-- if a ship needs to target something else, it can spin on its axis-- there's seveeral fights where the Yamato is actually spenning very quickly, firing as it goes and leaving no real blind spots.

Pouncer wrote:For my setting I went with the huge resource cost of the Zent ships, both to make and to crew. The resources to make a "mid sized" Zent ship, or even just convert an existing Zent ship to a "mostly" human/micronian sized crew could instead be used to produce a dozzen smaller ships.

When it comes to crew you either have to crew them with giants or humans. Giants are something that would require huge supplies of food, especially if the crews had addapted to terran fare instead of the Zentradi processed "slop." And that's not considering how reluctant humans were to have lots of giants working for them.

If you go with the human sized crew you have to refit much of the interiors to allow for the humans and the resources for that could be used to build many ships on their own.

I followed the reasoning that the ASC/early Expeditionary Force ships were of designed before successful integration of Zentradi tech. By the time integration was possible insufficient resources were available for the task.

In my storyline as the Sentinels' worlds were freed and more resources became available a 3rd generation of more "warshippy" craft were built (Based on the MarcrossII designs) but they didn't have large enough mecha compliments and the generation 4 designs (Ikazuchi, etc) were built.

As for the unarmed transports like the Horizon, it's pretty common practice for modern transports to be unarmed or lightly armed at best, probably to avoid calling attention to themselves in combat situations.

-POUNCER

I like the idea of converted Zentraedi ships myself. The height of the decks built to accommodate Zentraedi means you can build in 3+ human scale decks. Having them new built by the Robotech Factory then likely the process can be halted when the hull, engines, and reflex furnace is complete. Then slip them out to an orbital yard and complete control runs and decks as you please.

Of course that means you need to take into consideration for your Roleplaying Game and not a accurate recreation of each episode while getting the dialog right. Somebody is going to howl bloody murder about that.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Personally, what's always bugged me about the later ship designs isn't their fighter complement or anything aesthetic... it's the occasional, bewilderingly bone-headed design choices that render their armament either inefficient or useless. Most of the New Generation's ships suffer from this to some degree, with their turrets exclusively confined to their dorsal hulls (as though they pulled a Star Trek II and forgot space is a three-dimensional battlefield). The VLS hatches that several ships sprouted in RTSC make even less sense. All told, the gold medal definitely goes to the pre-refit Ikazuchi, which not only has purely dorsal armament, fully six of its eight gun turrets are unable to cover its port side due to obstruction of their fire-arcs by the bridge tower. That's one hell of a huge gap for a ship with no AA defense to speak of.

I share you complaints, especially with Ikazuchis going nose first into the conflicts. For me the first solution was to accept the retractable ventral turrets. To solve the line of sight issues I thought about the magnetic containment system used in the Macross cannons. I went with magnetic containment systems installed along the top and bottoms of the ships. When activated all the turrets could be fired along the centerline of the ship, just above the turret ahead of them, unleashing a barage along the line of fire of the front or rearmost turret.

Hmmm... taking a close look at the Shadow Chronicles art book it looks like each of the 8 corner PD guns is actually dual mounts with the guns articulated sepeartly, that would double the number of guns already. In the actual animation there are PD guns firing from the base of the command tower port side, hopefully with matching guns atop the launch bays on the starboard side. Probably just an animation error but, hey, why not run with it?

As for the craptastic ranges of the weapons I just ignore most of them, after all beam weapons should have a maximum effective range of around a light second, longer against unmoving or predictably moving targets, like stationary on a planet's surface.

I can forgive the design issues with the Garfish a little easier, especiall after the refit with the PDS added and the additional spinal missile launchers. Since it should be much more manuverable than the bigger ships it should be able to make better use of it's big turret.

-POUNCER

ArmySGT. wrote:I like the idea of converted Zentraedi ships myself. The height of the decks built to accommodate Zentraedi means you can build in 3+ human scale decks. Having them new built by the Robotech Factory then likely the process can be halted when the hull, engines, and reflex furnace is complete. Then slip them out to an orbital yard and complete control runs and decks as you please.

Of course that means you need to take into consideration for your Roleplaying Game and not a accurate recreation of each episode while getting the dialog right. Somebody is going to howl bloody murder about that.

I did keep a few Zent ships in the fleet but I also look at it as an "all your eggs in one basket" issue. Loosing one big ship can cost a big chunk of your manpower. Also, so much was done durring the recoverey, with the limitted manpower issues of the rebuilding Earth that I also figure they would have been unable to produce enough manpower for numbers of the bigger ships, I considered the number of humans necessary to replace each giant.

-POUNCER

mech798 wrote:It's made worse by the limitations of the animation-- while I can accept VLS missles, because they actually reduce the needed handling equipment when cmopared to the old style 1960s missle cruiser launchers, the cannon really made no sense.

Really, that's not a "limitation of the animation" bugaboo... that's just bad design at work. They could have easily drawn the ships with ventral turrets and so-on the way Mobile Suit Gundam did for its ships five years previously (and with a much more tenuous budget) but they didn't. These ships were intended for a planetary assault role, but their design is absolutely terrible for it. Looking at them, you'd expect they're a great deal more suited to something like the Battle of Loum from Mobile Suit Gundam: MS IGLOO, with dozens of ships side-on to the enemy at close range, having a battleship slugging match in a single plane...

The VLS missile launchers are only really suitable for planetary defense ships like the Oberth-class, that are just going to loiter in orbit with their launchers facing out into space. Otherwise, trying to bring them to bear against targets that are side-on or anywhere else in space combat is just a waste of propellant.

ArmySGT. wrote:I like the idea of converted Zentraedi ships myself. The height of the decks built to accommodate Zentraedi means you can build in 3+ human scale decks. Having them new built by the Robotech Factory then likely the process can be halted when the hull, engines, and reflex furnace is complete. Then slip them out to an orbital yard and complete control runs and decks as you please.

Why refit the entire ship like that, though? These ships have recycling tech advanced enough to keep troops that are Zentradi-side fed and watered for years at a go, and if you only adapt part of the ships for a human sized crew you have something you can do with your Zentradi recruits as well... since they don't fit well into human-made mecha (per the core book).

So the just do the Battlestar Galactica roll and present their weapons toward the enemy.

The Ikazuchi's turrets are defensive. They get the ship to the target and defend them from attack by enemy late arrivals. All the lower decks are dedicated to launch bays for fighters and drop ships. Ikazuchi's are going to rely on Shimakaze and Tokugawa class ships for suppression of enemy defenses and orbital bombardment. Garfish..... In the comic, came right down to the surface with the troops a naval gunfire support and gunship in one.

I could see a Garfish being useable in an engagement if it could frag clam ships before they open, but considering their level of firepower, I think they fall short in that role. Though for disgorging troops, at least it can protect itself better than a Horizont.

ArmySGT. wrote:So the just do the Battlestar Galactica roll and present their weapons toward the enemy.

They don't seem to be agile enough to carry that off, though...

ArmySGT. wrote:The Ikazuchi's turrets are defensive. They get the ship to the target and defend them from attack by enemy late arrivals.

Therein lies the weird part... I don't know if the RPG claims the guns are defensive, as I didn't spring for the Deluxe Edition, but the Infopedia, OSM, and series paint them as being dedicated offensive weapons. They're frigging useless in defensive roles, as the first episode illustrates well enough, but they actually pack a pretty reasonable punch when used against the Invid ships (as seen in Dark Finale/Symphony of Light). It's actually one of the more jarring discontinuities between RTSC's Battle of Reflex Point and the one in the series... synchro cannons can't pop Invid carriers, but Ikazuchi gun turrets can put paid to 'em in a single concerted blast. With respectable firepower, it's just bizarre that they designed the ship so that the guns were as blinded as they were.

The Dorsal guns on Ikazuchi are listed primary Anti-ship secondary anti-instillation/siege... 360 rotation, 65degree elevations...
but with ranges listed in 10's of miles... Kevin was writing for phase world when he submitted the ranges.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Dorsal guns on Ikazuchi are listed primary Anti-ship secondary anti-instillation/siege... 360 rotation, 65degree elevations...
but with ranges listed in 10's of miles... Kevin was writing for phase world when he submitted the ranges.

Thank you for looking that up.

Sounds about right to me, in terms of purpose and fire arc. The ranges... well... dunno if Phase World is entirely to blame on that front. The original Genesis Climber MOSPEADA kind of did things on a more Gundam-esque scale for weapons, generator outputs, and so on, so that might be Palladium borrowing from the OSM instead. The Ikazuchi's gun turrets had a decent amount of firepower in the show, though the way the bridge tower and hull cut and blinded their fire arc really didn't make them all that useful.

The Dorsal guns have the same firepower as the Lancer-2 space canon...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Dorsal guns have the same firepower as the Lancer-2 space canon...

's that per barrel, or all three barrels at once? IIRC, the Lancer II's cannons were pretty shooty, around the same level of firepower as the Oberth destroyer's anti-warship beam guns.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:The Dorsal guns have the same firepower as the Lancer-2 space canon...

's that per barrel, or all three barrels at once? IIRC, the Lancer II's cannons were pretty shooty, around the same level of firepower as the Oberth destroyer's anti-warship beam guns.

HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Actually HPC-SC240 is 1D4X100 per single blast.

-POUNCER

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Actually HPC-SC240 is 1D4X100 per single blast.

-POUNCER

yeah, its a triple-barreled blaster... thus a triple blast...

At least going by the animation in Symphony of Light, the dorsal guns on the Ikazuchi's and ventral gun on the Garfish have ranges far in excess of what is listed in the RPG. Same is true for the UEF cruisers if we use Mind Games as an indicator. The simple fact is the RAW for the ships in Robotech do not conform to what was shown on the screen.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Actually HPC-SC240 is 1D4X100 per single blast.

-POUNCER

yeah, its a triple-barreled blaster... thus a triple blast...

Ah, but it specifically says "single blast" and when you compare it to the simillarly sized but longer barrelled HPC-SL240 on the Garfish you get three times the damage for a triple blast (and twice the damage for a double blast). To me it seems that the rest of the damage text was left off the HPC-SC240 in the Ikazuchi's write up.

-POUNCER

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Actually HPC-SC240 is 1D4X100 per single blast.

-POUNCER

yeah, its a triple-barreled blaster... thus a triple blast...

Ah, but it specifically says "single blast" and when you compare it to the simillarly sized but longer barrelled HPC-SL240 on the Garfish you get three times the damage for a triple blast (and twice the damage for a double blast). To me it seems that the rest of the damage text was left off the HPC-SC240 in the Ikazuchi's write up.

-POUNCER

They did the same to the Macross' HPC-SC440 double-barreled Partical Cannons and HLC-SC125 Triple-Barreled Laser Cannons.

camk4evr wrote:

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Pouncer wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

Actually HPC-SC240 is 1D4X100 per single blast.

-POUNCER

yeah, its a triple-barreled blaster... thus a triple blast...

Ah, but it specifically says "single blast" and when you compare it to the simillarly sized but longer barrelled HPC-SL240 on the Garfish you get three times the damage for a triple blast (and twice the damage for a double blast). To me it seems that the rest of the damage text was left off the HPC-SC240 in the Ikazuchi's write up.

-POUNCER

They did the same to the Macross' HPC-SC440 double-barreled Partical Cannons and HLC-SC125 Triple-Barreled Laser Cannons.

Hmmm... seems there's a need for better developed, clearer text here... again.

-POUNCER

in these cases, I think the Damages are correct , only because it doesn't say the double barrel and triple barrel weapons can fire fire a single barrel.
normally in cases where the gun can fire only one barrel it lists it... like with the Lancer-2's main gun.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:in these cases, I think the Damages are correct , only because it doesn't say the double barrel and triple barrel weapons can fire fire a single barrel.
normally in cases where the gun can fire only one barrel it lists it... like with the Lancer-2's main gun.

For it to be less than the turret on the smaller, less powerful Garfish just doesn't make any sense to me. Especially since I actually did a size comparason for my group and you end up with the turrets on the Ikazuchi being the same rough size as the turret on the Garfish. And just mounting Zentradi turrets would carry more than twice the firepower of the Garfish as listed. I go with the turrets being an upgrade and when all three barels fire you get a weapon with a much better damage curve. This actually makes the Ikazuchis make more sense to me.

But each of us goes with their own interpretation.

-POUNCER

I honestly don't feel its an error.
if its only listing damage for a single barrle, then it would list damages for firing mutiple barrels at once.
Like the Lancer-2's main gun lists Damage for a single barrel firing, and a different amount for a double blast.
yet another example where we could use a bit better writing....

The Turrets on the Garfish (SL240) are even said to be same as the Ikazuchi's (SC240) ones, just with Longer barrels, Longer Range and Higher Damage output... it sounds like the Garfish has the upgraded guns...
and While the Garfish gives explicit rules about the Damage, the Ikazuchi dosen't...

To make the Ikazuchi viable, you would have to make them follow the same rules as the Garfish's main gun, and easily mutiply the Ranges by 100 or more...
The guns they should be based off of are the retractable lasers used by the Zents... who's ranges are 11,000 miles...

Gryphon wrote:The triple barreled turrets on the Ike are wrong here. Sort of like how Palladium has guns that do stuff like triple mount 1D4x10 guns that do 3D4x100 when all three fire, only in reverse here. The only real difference between the Ike's guns and the Garfish's guns is the latter has significantly better range the former, even though both are utterly useless against anyone else out there save for perhaps Invid capital scale vessels, you know, those things the Invid no longer have, and the Regis never used anyhow?

The real kicker here is that if we give an Ike sixteen triple turrets, then turn it to port, it can kick out 48D4x100 damage per volley, or 96D4x100 per melee, 3.84D4x10,000 per minute, or about 1D4x10,000 per minute of sustained fire, right?

Now take a look at the shootiness the johnny come lately Haydonites have in comparison, especially since they apparently have bendy beam guns such as basically no one else in Robotech has, save for perhaps the Masters! Even presuming an Ike could get in range of a Haydonite ship, it would be a death of a thousand cuts situation even before it could lay into the Haydonite ships with any real capability. The only thing that might save it is if the heavy missile batteries distract some of that offensive firepower coming their way!

Then, compare their typical complements of smallcraft, and figure out who has the advantage there is a Haydonite Wraith is actually a near match for a single Alpha fighter of any type! It's almost as bad as if the UEEF was actually facing real Zentraedi!

Much along the line of my point, gotta go with the better firepower and "fix" the crappy ranges. Plus the more Carrier like Ikes just aren't meant to face battleships on their own. That's what all those veritechs are for. Also doesn't hurt to put a few Monster series Destroids on the hull to kick the damage up a bit.

I didn't really see and real bendy beams in the animation but I figure the oddly shaped hull plates and the fold out weapon arrays shown in the design work will cover putting the beams on target. Also I apply the 50% rule to the haydonite ships. With the excepttion of the bow mounted weapons that only fire when the bow is open, 50 percent of weapons in a given area can fire into a given ark (i.e. of the 96 forward weapons on the Omicron only 48 can be brought to bare on a give arc, fore/port/starbord/ventral/dorsal). Plus forward weapons can't be fired when the bow doors are open.

Now 48 cannons are a massive number for the 16 turrets on the Ike to face, not good odds even without the disruptors and Shadow tech to blow up.

-POUNCER

Colonel Wolfe wrote:I honestly don't feel its an error.
if its only listing damage for a single barrle, then it would list damages for firing mutiple barrels at once.
Like the Lancer-2's main gun lists Damage for a single barrel firing, and a different amount for a double blast.
yet another example where we could use a bit better writing....

The Turrets on the Garfish (SL240) are even said to be same as the Ikazuchi's (SC240) ones, just with Longer barrels, Longer Range and Higher Damage output... it sounds like the Garfish has the upgraded guns...
and While the Garfish gives explicit rules about the Damage, the Ikazuchi dosen't...

To make the Ikazuchi viable, you would have to make them follow the same rules as the Garfish's main gun, and easily mutiply the Ranges by 100 or more...
The guns they should be based off of are the retractable lasers used by the Zents... who's ranges are 11,000 miles...

That's exactly what I do, to me the turret has to work like they do on the Garfish. And the ranges are definately upscaled, with the Garfish possessing even longer range than the Ike. It simply makes sense to me.

-POUNCER

Colonel Wolfe wrote:HPC-SC240 is listed as 1D4 x 100 per triple blast... 16 triple barreled guns... 30 miles atmorpahere/240 space... 2x per melee.
The Lancer-2 1D4x100 per double shot, 25 miles, shots = to pilots hand to hand...
another terrible example of advancements in technology, that are a hard step back.

To be fair, the entire RPG is full of stealth downgrades like that... and the Robotech official specs as well. I'd only just realized that I could review the spec for those guns in Genesis Pits, since they're shared hardware with the SDF-4.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:The simple fact is the RAW for the ships in Robotech do not conform to what was shown on the screen.

The same is true for the Macross Saga ships, per the dialogue from "Booby Trap" etc., they downgraded the SDF-1's main gun from a range of a light second down to just 60,000 miles, and the Zentradi standard turrets from a light second down to just 11,000 miles. (These are explicitly stated in-series too, so it's even less excusable than the other two sagas, where ranges aren't given.)

Pouncer wrote:Ah, but it specifically says "single blast" and when you compare it to the simillarly sized but longer barrelled HPC-SL240 on the Garfish you get three times the damage for a triple blast (and twice the damage for a double blast). To me it seems that the rest of the damage text was left off the HPC-SC240 in the Ikazuchi's write up.

-POUNCER

Same goes for the SDF-4's write-up in Genesis Pits... it's apparently copied word-for-word from the previous entries.

It is the same in universe thinking that led them to have only 1 protoculture matrix and to have the bright idea of putting it on the flagship you are about to take into a combat theatre.

Chris0013 wrote:It is the same in universe thinking that led them to have only 1 protoculture matrix and to have the bright idea of putting it on the flagship you are about to take into a combat theatre.

Part of a long esteemed tradition of excellent engineering and organization leading back over the centuries, including such highlights as the radium barbecue grill and the Titanic.

So, all said and done, the "in setting" reason for the UEEF ships is...

They don't have enough tech left to steal from someone else, and this is all they could come up with on their own.

Alrik Vas wrote:So, all said and done, the "in setting" reason for the UEEF ships is...

They don't have enough tech left to steal from someone else, and this is all they could come up with on their own.

Pretty much, especially now that the entire sentinals thing has been if not decanonized, at least stuffed into a closet. Then of course there's their tactics of "jump into what is essentially point blank range".

I mean, it's hard to really overestimate the stupidity of a force that has an FTL drive and yet is, not just once, but several times, wiped out by an enemy that doesn't have ship mounted ftl drives and in fact seems content to just chase them away, rather than following them. (We can't say this for certain, but the presence of the GIANT MOON BASE seems to argue that the Invid are very passive about anything not in LEO).

Actually, with what went on during the Pioneer mission a mystery, Sentinels thrown into question, and the Regent's unique forces (which traditionally have included things like "scorpion" ships, space hives, and other sundry) with no stats, there could be practical and doctrinal reasons behind the designs of the ships that we're simply just not privy to. Therefore, the ships were fighting an enemy there were inadequate for because they weren't fighting the enemy they were designed for.

It also helps not to forget that the plot required those ships to do poorly regardless of any advantages or features they possessed that would have let them triumph otherwise.

Alrik Vas wrote:So, all said and done, the "in setting" reason for the UEEF ships is...

They don't have enough tech left to steal from someone else, and this is all they could come up with on their own.

Per what's in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles and RT2E, that does seem to be the case... humanity's kind of rubbish at building robotechnology of its own, especially when it comes to fiddly bits like all the fold drive and reflex furnace tech, but they're pretty good at building around salvaged parts.

mech798 wrote:Pretty much, especially now that the entire sentinals thing has been if not decanonized, at least stuffed into a closet. Then of course there's their tactics of "jump into what is essentially point blank range".

Well, it's not like their hardware left them much choice... they're using principally short-ranged fighters which have no BVR armament to speak of and very little propellant capacity, so jumping into point-blank ranges is a reasonable way to make sure their fighters will still have enough fuel to actually accomplish something when they finally reach the target.