Supernatural Creatures?

[KillWatch]

Total new question but I have to ask and sse if there is some kind of explanation for it;

Are all supernatural creatures impervious to normal attacks?
I got vampries and werewolves, yet, if I remember right, VIs don't enjoy the same invulnerabilities...?
Even still gods, it seems, if you do a head shot with a couple thousand rounds of 9mm gatling fury will die

Am I missing something?

[say652]

in Rifts nothing is truly indestructable. everything has some sort of weakness trick is knowing it, i.e. lore skills.

[Prysus]

Total new question but I have to ask and sse if there is some kind of explanation for it;

Greetings and Salutations. I'll try to help if I can.

Are all supernatural creatures impervious to normal attacks?

No. A creature is not impervious unless otherwise noted, such as with the vampire and/or werebeast. These are exceptions, not the rule.

I got vampries and werewolves, yet, if I remember right, VIs don't enjoy the same invulnerabilities...?

You don't remember correctly. Vampire Intelligences do have the same abilities, including invulnerabilities and weaknesses (with a few exceptions) as the vampires they create. This information is found in both Vampire Kingdoms original and Revised.

On another note: Werewolves, though perhaps mentioned as supernatural are actually (most likely) Creatures of Magic (CoM). This can be determined by the definitions within RUE (as well as the definitions in Mysteries of Magic for PF fans). One of the notable reasons they're a CoM is they have a finite lifespan, as well as no indications that they can't be killed in other dimensions, and they seem native to a mortal world (BtS). All these indicate a CoM, not supernatural.

Even still gods, it seems, if you do a head shot with a couple thousand rounds of 9mm gatling fury will die

This is, in theory, correct. Of course, actually hitting said god in the head with a few thousand rounds is easier said than done. Also keep in mind the Vampire and Werewolf invlunerabilities/weaknesses are supposed to be based on folklore.

Am I missing something?

Not really. Some beings have special invulnerabilities. Take the Mystic Knight (Rifts: FoM) as an example. They're impervious to energy. That doesn't mean all Practitioners of Magic are impervious to energy as a result. This is a noted exception.

In some cases, such as with vampires, they have a lot of invulnerabilities that are offset by taking damage from common items such as sunlight and running water (both are relatively plentiful on Earth). In other cases, such as with the Mystic Knight, the impervious trait is limited (energy only) and they still have plenty of vulnerabilities (everything else!) that no additional weaknesses are needed. Note: This is, of course, a generality. Palladium uses no set rules for creating new monsters.

So you don't seem to be missing anything, maybe just making something more of it than is there. Anyways, hope some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[KillWatch]

Salutations Prysus

Your post was most informative and cordial. However the facts of the matter are disheartening.

I thank you good sir, and please find your day most pleasant.

[Nekira Sudacne]

why do you find the facts disheartening?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Total new question but I have to ask and see if there is some kind of explanation for it;

(1) Are all supernatural creatures impervious to normal attacks?
(2) I got vampires and werewolves, yet, if I remember right, VIs don't enjoy the same invulnerabilities...?
(3) Even still gods, it seems, if you do a head shot with a couple thousand rounds of 9mm gatling fury will die

Am I missing something?

(1) No, only those that state so.
(2) Far as I remember both traditional vamps and were-people have the same invunerablities, for the most part.
(3) gods can die....but can be brought back by the other gods of their pantheon.

[KillWatch]

Because it is counter intuitive and oh so Buffy like that its possible for me to kill a god, or that the reason I lost was because i didn't use enough ammo.

ok fine who created werewolves? Do they have the invulnerability? How did they get it? Why wouldn't every supernatural creature, especially gods, just deign it to be?

I am.... disappointed, but I am getting used to it. This means that the "gods" aren't gods just powerful supernatural beings which aren't really that powerful given enough .22 bullets. And that the game is ultimately atheistic. Call me old fashioned but I like the D&D gods. They didn't give them stats, they gave their avatars stats, but to stat out a god was just absurd, even for a game where a good HP is about 200.... Just not impressed, haven't been, don't see it coming in the future.

[say652]

true, gods are vastly underpowered in this game i mean it takes a pantheon to stop a supernatural intelligence and the combined strength of pantheons to stop one "splugorth" ? wth?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The gods in PB are modeled after the greek and roman gods where they need worshipers to have powers. So yes, they are Nerfed from idea of the omnipotent/-present creator God:Jehovah/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

[Nightmask]

Because it is counter intuitive and oh so Buffy like that its possible for me to kill a god, or that the reason I lost was because i didn't use enough ammo.

ok fine who created werewolves? Do they have the invulnerability? How did they get it? Why wouldn't every supernatural creature, especially gods, just deign it to be?

I am.... disappointed, but I am getting used to it. This means that the "gods" aren't gods just powerful supernatural beings which aren't really that powerful given enough .22 bullets. And that the game is ultimately atheistic. Call me old fashioned but I like the D&D gods. They didn't give them stats, they gave their avatars stats, but to stat out a god was just absurd, even for a game where a good HP is about 200.... Just not impressed, haven't been, don't see it coming in the future.

Gods are still gods even if they aren't omnipotent indestructible supernatural beings, outside of the monotheistic god from Judao/Christian/Muslim beliefs the pantheistic gods were fairly limited (albeit still unbeatably powerful by human standards) although extra-powerful in their domain of power. For the Norse gods in particular the idea of their inevitable defeat and death was often spoken of (namely Ragnarok), reflecting their non-omnipotent, non-indestructible nature.

Also nothing's 'that powerful' if you have enough of what it takes to kill it, that should be self-evident. Something that takes a galactic fleet of warships to kill isn't 'that powerful' if such fleets are common by your argument, but in truth that just reflects how powerful it actually is that takes that kind of firepower to eliminate it. Provided it's stupid enough to just stand there and take it instead of run (even Poseidon ran rather than die in a hopeless battle against the Mechanoids). They may have not been killed but the Old Ones even were stopped and imprisoned, thanks to the side of good managing 'enough .22s' to stop them, that doesn't mean the Old Ones were wimps because someone managed to pull together enough resources to stop them only that hard work and determination found a way to win out over otherwise overwhelming power.

[KillWatch]

Oh no I'm not saying wimps I'm just saying not gods, and would it be too much to say immune to non magical attacks?

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. At work and typing on my phone, so I'll try to keep this short (unedited though) and will mean no page numbers for book references. Anyways, if your main concern is that Supernatural beings are too easy to kill, then perhaps there is something you're missing.

1: On general principle alone, a god shouldn't be taken out by a few thousand rounds unless he wiped out a few armies in the process or wasn't run to full potential (and only if it stood to fight to the death). That's really a side note though, and at least partially relies on the abilities presented in Dragons & Gods (which you might not use if you're only using Pantheons of the Megaverse).

2: As of Dragons & Gods (for PF), gods can be resurrected by the rest of their pantheon. This is one of the reasons gods form pantheons in the first place. So it really is hard to kill one, unless you wipe out the entire pantheon first!

3: As of RUE (for Rifts), supernatural beings cannot be slain except in their home dimension. This means you can't really kill a Baal-Rog unless you kill it in Hades (anywhere else and it'll just reincarnate in Hades). This is true for all supernatural beings.

Note: What follows is not mentioned anywhere in canon, but extrapolated as best as possible using logical deduction from canon sources.

4: Werewolves, as Creatures of Magic (CoM), do not benefit from #3. So they have invulnerabilities making them harder to hurt, but they're still easier to kill. Note: The PF werewolves are mentioned as CoM, but the BtS/Rifts werewolves I believe are not.

5: Vampires, though supernatural, do not benefit from #3. Their host bodies are native to this dimension, so can be slain here. The essence fragment that transforms them, on the other hand, would just return to the VI.

So hurting a vampire or werewolf may be harder, but killing them is actually easier. Anyways, just some added info. Hopefully some of that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[Nightmask]

Oh no I'm not saying wimps I'm just saying not gods, and would it be too much to say immune to non magical attacks?

Except they are gods, since again gods don't have to be indestructible omnipotent beings to be gods, and yes in general it would be too much to have them be immune to non-magical attacks because again they aren't omnipotent or indestructible. Gods have portfolios and areas where they are strong and where they are weak, a nature god that draws strength from a living ecosystem isn't going to do so well in a place that is barren and lifeless for example. It's not as if the tales of various gods through the ages haven't shown them being vulnerable to many non-magical things, Balder required special effort on the part of his mother to render him as invulnerable as he was and even she left him with a weakness to a simple non-magical plant due to her oversight.

If you're going to talk actual gods then you have to accept that they do have vulnerabilities and always have had them in their ancient tales, they were just too powerful for those that worshiped them to have a hope of standing up to them when the highest technology was the crossbow.

[KillWatch]

you pick out the one guy with an achilles heal. And if that logic followed then everyone is vulnerable to every norse by just throwing it at them. Baldur died because loki threw holly at him. None of the other gods have stories about being invulnerable to anything, which then means they are vulnerable to everything, deathly vulnerable. So either its parable telling man that we all have our weaknesses and not to be too full of ourselves, or thor needs to have 1 hp left always because his mother asked no one to not harm her son

And your view of gods is so limited, I mean a god of nature shouldn't draw powr from nature, it is IS nature. They are in essence elementals of their spheres. Fire does not draw power from someone's candle, it IS fire. I guess it depends on your cosmology. Palladium is limited and small

[Nightmask]

you pick out the one guy with an achilles heal. And if that logic followed then everyone is vulnerable to every norse by just throwing it at them. Baldur died because loki threw holly at him. None of the other gods have stories about being invulnerable to anything, which then means they are vulnerable to everything, deathly vulnerable. So either its parable telling man that we all have our weaknesses and not to be too full of ourselves, or thor needs to have 1 hp left always because his mother asked no one to not harm her son

And your view of gods is so limited, I mean a god of nature shouldn't draw powr from nature, it is IS nature. They are in essence elementals of their spheres. Fire does not draw power from someone's candle, it IS fire. I guess it depends on your cosmology. Palladium is limited and small

Your view of gods is too expansive, colored apparently a bit too much by the concept of the monotheistic God who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and utterly indestructible and eternal. All the pantheistic tales of gods show them to be powerful but still limited, it's not my view of gods it's the view of gods in general that humanity has had. I don't know of any such stories where they didn't have gods dying by being killed by other gods or as a result of other methods of death. Palladium is in keeping with the actual mythologies in that regard, reflecting how gods are powerful but they can't remake worlds or anything so all-encompassing.

[KillWatch]

God v God-fine
God v demon horde-fine
God v innumerable mortals-not so much

And I am not disagreeing with you what PB tried to do, I just think they did it poorly. The gods in the books are tangible and they get the mythologies wrong. Demi gods being killed by armies fine. hercules vs a roman legion fine- he might not make it, but he is half mortal. The only gods I know of that are GOING to die are the norse gods, but again that is a) apocalyptic b) god v god. Set killed and dismembered Osiris. But again, god v god. And as far as I know no mythology deals with what happens when a god dies? do they have souls? are they souls? I would assume they are some greater form of spirit. If so, how do you kill that? even if on their own plane? I mean look at the considerably lesser beings that are enlightened immortals? or even nightlords?

The roles of gods are ambiguous in palladium. Why are they there? They are weak-they dont create or destroy anything of significance like worlds or even entire dimensions, much less autonomous living life forms, or even less-single celled life forms, or destinies. Thor lifted the tail of the midgard serpent-presumably several million tons-given that it is supposed to encircle the world, or be able to drain trillions of gallons of water as he drank the oceans and lowered it several feet. Show me the stats for that. What is the nature of a god? How does the stats for Fenris allow him to swallow the sun? What is the MDC of the earth aka Gaia? or the sun aka Apollo or Ra or Bast?

In the beginning God wasn't omni anything either. He would ask silly questions, kill people out of jealousy. He was like a godling whose toys were not playing by the rules. But as our own understanding of the universe grew the abrahamic understanding of god grew to include those new understandings, saying that the marvel of the universe is the marvel of the majesty and complexity of the god/gods.

But I don't see a compromise coming other than to agree to disagree

[cornholioprime]

true, gods are vastly underpowered in this game i mean it takes a pantheon to stop a supernatural intelligence and the combined strength of pantheons to stop one "splugorth" ? wth?

Alien Intelligences have ALWAYS been at the top of the food chain in the Palladium Megaverse.

Starting with the Old Ones and working down from there.

[Damian Magecraft]

true, gods are vastly underpowered in this game i mean it takes a pantheon to stop a supernatural intelligence and the combined strength of pantheons to stop one "splugorth" ? wth?

Alien Intelligences have ALWAYS been at the top of the food chain in the Palladium Megaverse.

Starting with the Old Ones and working down from there.

Well considering the Cthonic influences involved in their inspiration is this all that surprising?

[KillWatch]

If you look at conversion book the gods and the Intelligences use the same stat blocks

Supernatural Intelligences
The following data is a very general way to create generic type
supernatural intelligences. However, these stats may vary dramatically
from intelligence to intelligence, but will allow a GM to create a typical
intelligence. They can also serve as a basis for designing specific mythical
gods.

However it does go on to say that the old ones were vastly more powerful than any known supernatural being today,... ugh

However again looking at thoth with the stats of Xy he doesn't appear to be all that much more powerful

[Nekira Sudacne]

Oh no I'm not saying wimps I'm just saying not gods, and would it be too much to say immune to non magical attacks?

Check Dragons and Gods. There every god has their own immunities listing. Most gods are invunerable to mundane weapons, and it's explicit that it's possible for gods to make themselves immune to more things through enough application of devine power. but some have specific other weaknesses, some have fewer, and at least one deeval lord made himself impervious to everything except silver. seriously, even magic can't hurt him. nothing but silver bullets. And the odds of anyone keeping him still long enough to hit him with enough .22 silver bullets is small when magic can't pin him down.

It also has rules for them creating dimensions and worlds.

[Nekira Sudacne]

If you look at conversion book the gods and the Intelligences use the same stat blocks

Supernatural Intelligences
The following data is a very general way to create generic type
supernatural intelligences. However, these stats may vary dramatically
from intelligence to intelligence, but will allow a GM to create a typical
intelligence. They can also serve as a basis for designing specific mythical
gods.

However it does go on to say that the old ones were vastly more powerful than any known supernatural being today,... ugh

However again looking at thoth with the stats of Xy he doesn't appear to be all that much more powerful

It's not that Thoth is Xy, it's that thoth WAS Xy, and he was massively depowered. Thoth isn't an old one, he's just a pathetic shell of what he once was.

[say652]

true, gods are vastly underpowered in this game i mean it takes a pantheon to stop a supernatural intelligence and the combined strength of pantheons to stop one "splugorth" ? wth?

Alien Intelligences have ALWAYS been at the top of the food chain in the Palladium Megaverse.

Starting with the Old Ones and working down from there.

i think that is kinda dumb. for the pantheons book to depussify the dieties i double physical attributes and triple mdc.

[Warshield73]

I think one of the things missing from this discussion is the role of the GM and well the role of role playing. A god is more then just an MDC value, you have to factor in magic, psionics, personal weapons & armor, and minions. Most important of all, you have to factor in intelligence, experience, and cunning. Normal PC's, even super powerful ones, can not match this and a GM needs to play it up.

I used the story idea for the Norse goddess Hel (Pantheons pg. 158) were she is trying to become a non-humanoid god for the Mechanoids. The PC's were the original ones we started when rifts came out and they had been playing them for probably 10 years at that point. They had super powers, advanced weapons, rune weapons, one was a very powerful hatchling dragon. After they got through Hel's minions the best they could do was stop her plans and recover the items she stole. Even if they could have killed her, not likely, I made sure they understood how her allies would respond to this so they were careful to give her an avenue of retreat.

This is role playing and things like gods and demon lords are more then just stats on a page, they are a part of the story to be used to engage the story. As for gods being underpowered compared to SI's, that is just the pecking order in this universe and it goes well with mythology. Almost every deific myth has a more power predecessor, like the Greek Titans, so SI's fit right in. Just my two cents.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think one of the things missing from this discussion is the role of the GM and well the role of role playing. A god is more then just an MDC value, you have to factor in magic, psionics, personal weapons & armor, and minions. Most important of all, you have to factor in intelligence, experience, and cunning. Normal PC's, even super powerful ones, can not match this and a GM needs to play it up.

I used the story idea for the Norse goddess Hel (Pantheons pg. 158) were she is trying to become a non-humanoid god for the Mechanoids. The PC's were the original ones we started when rifts came out and they had been playing them for probably 10 years at that point. They had super powers, advanced weapons, rune weapons, one was a very powerful hatchling dragon. After they got through Hel's minions the best they could do was stop her plans and recover the items she stole. Even if they could have killed her, not likely, I made sure they understood how her allies would respond to this so they were careful to give her an avenue of retreat.

This is role playing and things like gods and demon lords are more then just stats on a page, they are a part of the story to be used to engage the story. As for gods being underpowered compared to SI's, that is just the pecking order in this universe and it goes well with mythology. Almost every deific myth has a more power predecessor, like the Greek Titans, so SI's fit right in. Just my two cents.

Becoming a non-humanoid god wouldn't be difficult, alter primal manifestation deific power would let her become whatever she wished, but she would be severely weakened for a time afterwards (loose 90% of MDC and PPE, and they only regenerate at the rate a normal mortal would, meaning about 1d4 MDC per day. they cannot bio-regenerate or even be healed by magic again until they're up to full)

[Warshield73]

Becoming a non-humanoid god wouldn't be difficult, alter primal manifestation deific power would let her become whatever she wished, but she would be severely weakened for a time afterwards (loose 90% of MDC and PPE, and they only regenerate at the rate a normal mortal would, meaning about 1d4 MDC per day. they cannot bio-regenerate or even be healed by magic again until they're up to full)

They actually list some of the ingredients in the passage, including the life-essence of a millennium tree, and I made the requirements even tougher by saying it had to be done at a place of power during a solstice. The point of the spell was not just to change shape but to increase her power and make herself more appealing to the mechanoids. Her new body was supposed to be 90,000 MDC so way more then alter primal manifestation deific power. The whole point was changing shape, but to make a big plot device for GM's.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

you pick out the one guy with an achilles heal. And if that logic followed then everyone is vulnerable to every norse by just throwing it at them. Baldur died because loki threw holly at him. None of the other gods have stories about being invulnerable to anything, which then means they are vulnerable to everything, deathly vulnerable. So either its parable telling man that we all have our weaknesses and not to be too full of ourselves, or thor needs to have 1 hp left always because his mother asked no one to not harm her son

And your view of gods is so limited, I mean a god of nature shouldn't draw powr from nature, it is IS nature. They are in essence elementals of their spheres. Fire does not draw power from someone's candle, it IS fire. I guess it depends on your cosmology. Palladium is limited and small

I have to disagree (slightly) with your thought that a God of X doesn't draw power from X because they ARE X.

Take the example of Ares in DC's Injustice: God's Among Us story arc.

Wonder Woman tells him that she and Superman intend to literally put a stop to all War/Conflict on the planet.

Ares warns her this is a bad idea.

Wonder Woman deduces that Ares is afraid, because "with out war there is nothing left for you. What will you become then, The god of Ponies?"

They start to fight.

Ares laughs at her and tells her she has no hope to defeat him because 1. He's a god and 2. they're fighting in the middle of a battle field/war zone which he states as being, "where I am at my most powerful"

That fits right in with the previous example of a Nature god being less powerful in a dead/barren area or a cityscape. If there is no or limited nature for the Nature god to draw from then they are rightfully going to be less powerful. Yes they will still be a god and should stomp all over the soft pink mortals. However, if the heroes have a chance to hold out and start slowly chipping away at him, in an area where he can't draw on his essence (what he's a god OF) then they should stand a better chance.

[KillWatch]

ok so levels and gods
how many levels would a god have. Sure I see levels 20 and so on, which makes it what, 6 million XP or so (about 1 million at level 15+1 million each additional level)?
lets be stingy and say 1000 xp per year
=6000 years without trying
how old are the gods? I mean unless you think once you get to god level there is nothing left to do? like explore your divinity, fight against other gods and their mechanations, hordes of demons and devils, explore the universe and other dimensions

[Rimmerdal]

ok so levels and gods
how many levels would a god have. Sure I see levels 20 and so on, which makes it what, 6 million XP or so (about 1 million at level 15+1 million each additional level)?
lets be stingy and say 1000 xp per year
=6000 years without trying
how old are the gods? I mean unless you think once you get to god level there is nothing left to do? like explore your divinity, fight against other gods and their mechanations, hordes of demons and devils, explore the universe and other dimensions

With Gods and Alien Ints its not level or class. its what they influence you need to worry about. You go killing a death god, God of time or other Key figure of a pantheon ALOT people..not just that gods allies will be upset. Plus if you go out to kill a death god...he can out right kill by thought, no save or no dodges. You just die.

Plus what they influence will determine what powers and allies they have and more importantly what they can disable with a thought. Dealing with a War God is in most cases preferable to dealing with a Pantheons death or time god. Instant death or death due to massive old age in matter seconds can be pretty brutal.

Disrupting his plans...that is what adventure is all about...just hope you don't run into that death god in the after life,,,LOL!

But to answer you more directly..Yes its the planning and moving your worshipers around that would be the big entertainment. Gods realize they are power incarnate and such a direct conflict rarely ends well..even for the victor.

[The Beast]

ok so levels and gods
how many levels would a god have.

My last in-person group did the levels for gods & AI's by adding up all the OCC levels listed under that NPC for the level. For example: Thoth in D&G is listed as a 30th level diabolist, 20th level rune master, 20th level wizard, 20th level alchemist, and a 15th level summoner. That would make his spells at 105th level when cast. Granted that's 100% house-rule right there. I think most people would run him as 30th level for wards, and 20th level for spells.

Fortunately me and my two friends found out about this the easy way. The GM (who was new to our group at the time) was introducing our PFRPG PCs to a minor god when he read the god's levels out loud and then said "So that means he casts at level X." That got all three of us eyeballing each other with the silent "Did he just do that?" look before driving on. Personally I think it works better that way due to the fact it keeps most players very respectful when dealing with the gods and/or their high priests in their own temples

[Rimmerdal]

ok so levels and gods
how many levels would a god have.

My last in-person group did the levels for gods & AI's by adding up all the OCC levels listed under that NPC for the level. For example: Thoth in D&G is listed as a 30th level diabolist, 20th level rune master, 20th level wizard, 20th level alchemist, and a 15th level summoner. That would make his spells at 105th level when cast. Granted that's 100% house-rule right there. I think most people would run him as 30th level for wards, and 20th level for spells.

Fortunately me and my two friends found out about this the easy way. The GM (who was new to our group at the time) was introducing our PFRPG PCs to a minor god when he read the god's levels out loud and then said "So that means he casts at level X." That got all three of us eyeballing each other with the silent "Did he just do that?" look before driving on. Personally I think it works better that way due to the fact it keeps most players very respectful when dealing with the gods and/or their high priests in their own temples

Yup, never know where a worshiper works...he just might be the Cyber Doc that fixes your Limbs or your arms dealer. Its amazing how people might cross a few wires or put in a faulty Firing pin in your Wilk's laser.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It's not that Thoth is Xy, it's that thoth WAS Xy, and he was massively depowered. Thoth isn't an old one, he's just a pathetic shell of what he once was.

No, Thoth, Xy's new personality, just THINKS he is not as powerful as Xy. This is why the text is written the way it is. With the stats Thoth "Thinks" he has and the stats he really has.

[Brayon]

Disclaimer, I did not read the whole thread....I'm responding to the OP's disheartening comment about killing gods.

I agree Player Characters should not be able to kill gods. Period. End of Story. I treat the write ups in the PoM and other Rifts sources that these are the Avatars of the gods, and not the Gods themselves. PCs can kill an Avatar, but doing so invokes the wrath of said god, and his allies. the gods can not directly affect the world, so they have to use Avatars and Followers.

To me killing a god is nigh impossible, and would take another god to do so. If a PC were to try, they would die as soon as combat starts as:
A. The god goes first.
B. The god wills the PC dead
C. The PC falls over dead, no save.

[KillWatch]

Brayon

[Warshield73]

Disclaimer, I did not read the whole thread....I'm responding to the OP's disheartening comment about killing gods.

I agree Player Characters should not be able to kill gods. Period. End of Story. I treat the write ups in the PoM and other Rifts sources that these are the Avatars of the gods, and not the Gods themselves. PCs can kill an Avatar, but doing so invokes the wrath of said god, and his allies. the gods can not directly affect the world, so they have to use Avatars and Followers.

To me killing a god is nigh impossible, and would take another god to do so. If a PC were to try, they would die as soon as combat starts as:
A. The god goes first.
B. The god wills the PC dead
C. The PC falls over dead, no save.

I guess I can see why you might take this approach but to me it just changes the dynamic of Palladium Megaverse too much and really messes with the power level, especially in Rifts.

When you look at myths of the ancient gods they were always powerful but humanity, particularly human heroes, were always a threat to them, even a mortal threat, this is what brings the drama. In the world you create a god like Isis could smite the entire CS army before breakfast and reduces any technological civilization to second or even third tier status as they could never mach a magic based society with a patron god.

It also shifts gods from being less powerful then a supernatural intel to being drastically more powerful. Unless you up there level too in which case vamps and splugies just got LOT tougher. Just my cent and a half.

[Brayon]

Disclaimer, I did not read the whole thread....I'm responding to the OP's disheartening comment about killing gods.

I agree Player Characters should not be able to kill gods. Period. End of Story. I treat the write ups in the PoM and other Rifts sources that these are the Avatars of the gods, and not the Gods themselves. PCs can kill an Avatar, but doing so invokes the wrath of said god, and his allies. the gods can not directly affect the world, so they have to use Avatars and Followers.

To me killing a god is nigh impossible, and would take another god to do so. If a PC were to try, they would die as soon as combat starts as:
A. The god goes first.
B. The god wills the PC dead
C. The PC falls over dead, no save.

I guess I can see why you might take this approach but to me it just changes the dynamic of Palladium Megaverse too much and really messes with the power level, especially in Rifts.

When you look at myths of the ancient gods they were always powerful but humanity, particularly human heroes, were always a threat to them, even a mortal threat, this is what brings the drama. In the world you create a god like Isis could smite the entire CS army before breakfast and reduces any technological civilization to second or even third tier status as they could never mach a magic based society with a patron god.

It also shifts gods from being less powerful then a supernatural intel to being drastically more powerful. Unless you up there level too in which case vamps and splugies just got LOT tougher. Just my cent and a half.

Not necessarily. In my games, the gods have their own Dimensions that the live in, and send a part of their essence to Earth via Avatars. Otherwise the gods are forbidden from direct contact to the "Mortal Realm" and can only act through their followers or an Avatar. Not all gods are going to create Avatars, because they are either Power Greedy, Paranoid, etc. and work exclusively through their followers. For a god to be able to attack a Mortal, they have to be on their Home Dimension.

So, Zeus and Crew have a Dimension outside of Earth they call Mt. Olympus. Connects to several realms, such as Tartarus, Elysium, etc. and they are the Supreme rulers there. Joe Smith the Mage want to fight Zeus, so he goes to Zeus' Home Dimension, where he promptly gets killed for being an idiot. So Zeus tracks where Joe came from, and sees he is from the Federation of Magic. He directs his Avatar who is chilling in the Med on "New Olympus Island" plotting how he is getting Eros to have Hera seduce a Splyrgoth, to head to the Federation. He goes there, only to learn that with no followers, clergy, priests, holy warriors, that he is a single man vrs. an entire nation. So he pays people to make skirmish runs against the FoM, all the while concealing his identity, less he would be killed.

Overall the power levels remain the same, and with Humans/D-Bees having Free Will to choose to follow a god or not, most gods are focused on that. Cause More Followers = More Power. Kind of like over in Social Issues thread, and a couple of others, most people in RIFTS world to me would be more along the lines of Agnostic to Deist, to more current religions.

[KillWatch]

D&D follows the Avatar rules
Direct intervention by the gods would destroy the world. I use the stats in the books as their avatars

PS RE Intels and Gods if you look for the stats for intelligences you will also see that they can be used for gods

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's not that Thoth is Xy, it's that thoth WAS Xy, and he was massively depowered. Thoth isn't an old one, he's just a pathetic shell of what he once was.

No, Thoth, Xy's new personality, just THINKS he is not as powerful as Xy. This is why the text is written the way it is. With the stats Thoth "Thinks" he has and the stats he really has.

And it also says that what his stats really are are but a shadow of what Xy once was. He thinks he's less powerful than he is because he thinks he's a regular god dependant on worship. He isn't, but that dosn't mean his piddling 40,000 MDC and 6,000 PPE is anything close to what Xy as Power Incarnate weilded.