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While there are the mentions of ancient masters with advanced abilities beyond that of the 'merely' Dedicated Martial Artist we don't have anything that really provides for when the long-devoted high level Martial Artist becomes more, becoming the ancient master with techniques or powers the majority simply never achieve. Where does one draw that line, and what kinds of abilities are possible for these martial artists who've taken their devotion to the martial arts beyond what the majority have done?

Would it be too much to use the Ancient Master from Heroes Unlimited

Snake Eyes wrote:Would it be too much to use the Ancient Master from Heroes Unlimited

I don't think it's really that compatible, it reduces all ancient masters to a generic template no matter how wildly different the character's original MA focus. The Dedicated MA with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji ends up with the same generic stats as one that was a Ninjitsu master or a Tien Hsueh Touch Master.

Yeah, went and looked at the AM again, wow trying to convert it to a dedicated MA basically just throws everything out the window......might as well build one straight from N&SS

Snake Eyes wrote:Yeah, went and looked at the AM again, wow trying to convert it to a dedicated MA basically just throws everything out the window......might as well build one straight from N&SS

Pretty much, but that requires data/ideas on ways to make that work so each ancient master is unique based on chosen MA style(s). Not that the HU Ancient Master is totally useless, the possible extra powers and special features they include are workable ideas as possible things a particular AM might develop. An Ancient Master devoted to Chi Mastery, particularly positive chi abilities, might develop the Healing Factor minor super-power for example. Something common particularly in anime and manga dealing with Martial Artists is developing Longevity, but feedback on ways of making it work for N&SS and spark other ideas is a must on such a complex topic.

On a closer scale some of the Physical Psychic's special abilities from BTS 2nd Ed might be a good start . Just a thought .

AFAIK, that would be strictly a matter of GM's fiat... I know that when I needed to introduce the Grandmaster of the Snake Style in my campaign, I just gave him the add'l special abilities I wanted, as well as making him an honorary 17th level (lowball for a guy who was one of the original Shao Lin monks that survived the masssacre of the temple under the Ming dynasty)

Svartalf wrote:AFAIK, that would be strictly a matter of GM's fiat... I know that when I needed to introduce the Grandmaster of the Snake Style in my campaign, I just gave him the add'l special abilities I wanted, as well as making him an honorary 17th level (lowball for a guy who was one of the original Shao Lin monks that survived the masssacre of the temple under the Ming dynasty)

This, so much this

Since in Ninjas and Superspies, Ancient Master is a job title, not an OCC......Just take the Martial Artist of choice, and ramp them up to what you feel is appropriate.
Increased physical (and or mental stats), extra skills, high levels, feel free to stack on any additional abilities that make sense for their art. (if their art teaches chi powers....they will have most if not all of them for instance). Keep seasoning to taste, and when done, garnish with title of choice

eliakon wrote:

Svartalf wrote:AFAIK, that would be strictly a matter of GM's fiat... I know that when I needed to introduce the Grandmaster of the Snake Style in my campaign, I just gave him the add'l special abilities I wanted, as well as making him an honorary 17th level (lowball for a guy who was one of the original Shao Lin monks that survived the masssacre of the temple under the Ming dynasty)

This, so much this

Since in Ninjas and Superspies, Ancient Master is a job title, not an OCC......Just take the Martial Artist of choice, and ramp them up to what you feel is appropriate.
Increased physical (and or mental stats), extra skills, high levels, feel free to stack on any additional abilities that make sense for their art. (if their art teaches chi powers....they will have most if not all of them for instance). Keep seasoning to taste, and when done, garnish with title of choice

Makes sense to me .

Nightmask wrote:reduces all ancient masters to a generic template no matter how wildly different the character's original MA focus. The Dedicated MA with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji ends up with the same generic stats as one that was a Ninjitsu master or a Tien Hsueh Touch Master.

Not entirely... I mean you can customize them a bit depending on which super ability you choose.

Heck, you can even choose ones not on the list, the ones in Century Station have Extraordinary Speed, which isn't even listed as an option in the main book, and they're not even old men, they're these spry young ninjas.

4 dodges per missile baby!

Nightmask wrote:

Snake Eyes wrote:Would it be too much to use the Ancient Master from Heroes Unlimited

I don't think it's really that compatible, it reduces all ancient masters to a generic template no matter how wildly different the character's original MA focus. The Dedicated MA with Tae Kwon Do and Zanji ends up with the same generic stats as one that was a Ninjitsu master or a Tien Hsueh Touch Master.

Not really so sure that's the case. If you're going to make an HU Revised AM with N&SS MA forms, N&SS already has guidelines on "adjusting" the HU Revised rules...which cuts out the 4 physical skills, all of those W.P. skills, & a lot of other stuff.

Essentially, the difference between the N&SS Dedicated MA & the modified HU Revised AM is: the Dedicated MA gets 2 Secondary skills, & the AM gets those extra martial arts-type "mystic" abilities. No extra skill programs, no "I'm a Ph.D candidate that's also trained for decades in Hwarang-Do", nothing at all like that.

Id think it would have a lot to do with experience . The average person (NPC) would very rarely make it past 10th level . I would add 5 levels automatically , double the form attribute bonuses (choose the bonuses of one form only) add a couple spell like or psionic abilities (half energy cost ? or no cost and only used 5 or 6 times a day ?) OR increase the amount of MA abilities the primary form starts with and increase the exp cost by 25% to 50% .

Trent wrote:Id think it would have a lot to do with experience . The average person (NPC) would very rarely make it past 10th level . I would add 5 levels automatically , double the form attribute bonuses (choose the bonuses of one form only) add a couple spell like or psionic abilities (half energy cost ? or no cost and only used 5 or 6 times a day ?) OR increase the amount of MA abilities the primary form starts with and increase the exp cost by 25% to 50% .

Also if you want to specialize instead give like 4 related spell like abilities . Example : Warrior of the wind might get 4 or 5 air elemental spells from 1st to 5th level . A more mental warrior might get 4 or 5 psionic powers that effect the minds or others . But make sure that if they are specialist that the abilities chosen are related .

THIS is why I hate the 2nd Ed AM... The 1st Ed worked just fine, and the locked MA levels were irrelevant (unless you were trying to make an Immortal).

So, being 15th level is not an Ancient Master in N&SS? That is how I have always done it, since most PCs even after 30 years of "game time" are still at about 10 to 12 levels in my games. I suppose that I am sort of stingy with levels

I always just figured that 15th level is the hard cap for "humans" and thus worked backward so that a starting PC (1st level) is about 18 to 21 years old and a totally untested, but trained person.
22 to 29 is 2nd to 3rd level.
the 30's gets you 4th to 5th level
the 40's are 6th to 7th level
the 50's are 8th to 9th level
the 60's get you to 10th and 11th level
and 70's and 80's will get you to 12 to 13th level
from 90 to 110 you can get to 14th level
and thus ancient masters are 15th level

Granted, that is just how I run it, but seeing as how a lot of PB games kind of go with that for their NPCs, I kinda just go with it (Heroes Unlimited and BTS). Military characters are generally running a level or three ahead of their civilian counterparts (see Coalition War Campaign, Robotech, and Chaos Earth).

You can justify it by saying that there are only about 2 to 3 (or maybe only one) 15th level ancient masters of any martial art at any one time...

-STS

I would, personally, say that getting to level 15 is not the definition of Ancient Master.

I would say that getting to level 15 is a good start.
In my opinion an Ancient Master is going to be....well a master.
He will know ALL the skills that are associated with his art. He will know all the techniques/katas/chi powers/what ever. Nevermind if that is possible just based on level.
They likely know ones even with out them being in the art...
They have collected skills and abilities like kids collect trading cards....
They are the guys who you average 10th to 15th level PC looks at and goes "Woah he is good"

I've never had a PC above 10th level in any PB game I've played or GM'ed...

-STS

eliakon wrote:I would, personally, say that getting to level 15 is not the definition of Ancient Master.

I would say that getting to level 15 is a good start.
In my opinion an Ancient Master is going to be....well a master.
He will know ALL the skills that are associated with his art. He will know all the techniques/katas/chi powers/what ever. Nevermind if that is possible just based on level.
They likely know ones even with out them being in the art...
They have collected skills and abilities like kids collect trading cards....
They are the guys who you average 10th to 15th level PC looks at and goes "Woah he is good"

That's roughly where I've seen it, the Ancient Master much like how you see him in many anime knows more (even if due to age they can't necessarily USE all that they know) than someone who's otherwise a master, and has developed abilities the others haven't due to their extreme dedication and experience that's simply above the average master.

Following the direction of the topic speaking strictly non-canon: You could just add the Ancient master powers to the DMA stats. Those would be "in and above".
All this talk here seams trying to over-complicate things.

drewkitty~..~ are you thinking of something like this:

Ancient Master OCC

Actual Age: per HU
Time in the modern world: per HU
Level of experience: start at level 1 (instead of 1d6+3 in HU)
Hit Points: 15d6 +any bonuses from the base martial art and martial art powers
SDC: 3d6x10 +any bonuses from the base martial art and martial art powers
Skills and Education: per HU
Hand to Hand Ancient Master:
Begin with all 15 levels of combat bonuses of one of the martial arts in N&SS including Martial Art Powers AND all of the skills included in those arts such as languages and weapon katas. Then you add on the following bonuses as they progress into Ancient Master territory:

1st Level: +5 to damage, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm, +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death, +1 save vs Mind Control
2nd Level: +2 to initiative, +2 to parry, +1 to dodge, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +2 save vs Possession
3rd Level: +2 to initiative, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm , +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +2 save vs Possession
4th Level: +2 to initiative, +1 to strike, +2 to parry, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death, +2 save vs Possession
5th Level: +5 to damage, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm, +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +1 save vs Mind Control
6th Level: +1 disarm, +1 pull punch
7th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +5% save vs coma/death
8th Level: +1 attack, +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 roll with punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
9th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +1 to save vs Possession
10th Level: +1 attack, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +5% save vs coma/death
11th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry,
12th Level: +1 attack, +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
13th Level: +1 roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death
14th Level: +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
15th Level: +1 attack, +5% save vs coma/death, +1 to save vs Possession

Ancient Weapon Proficiency: NO new proficiencies are gained, however all ancient weapon proficiencies that were a part of their original art gain a special one time bonus of 1d4+1 each.

Special Abilities: as per HU, so that these skills and abilities are in addition to those gained in their original art.

Equipment: as per HU (although the WP strike bonus is included above).

-STS

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Following the direction of the topic speaking strictly non-canon: You could just add the Ancient master powers to the DMA stats. Those would be "in and above".
All this talk here seams trying to over-complicate things.

I am not sure how trying to combine the abilities of an OCC and a Power Category, from not perfectly compatible games that use different rules for such basic things as combat and chi would be the less complicated route to go....

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Following the direction of the topic speaking strictly non-canon: You could just add the Ancient master powers to the DMA stats. Those would be "in and above".
All this talk here seams trying to over-complicate things.

I am not sure how trying to combine the abilities of an OCC and a Power Category, from not perfectly compatible games that use different rules for such basic things as combat and chi would be the less complicated route to go....

By not over complicate things by trying to convert them. Just use the powers the come with the AM PC "as is".
I would say to limit the number of the AM powers added onto the DMA class to make a AM DMA. Maybe just 2+1d4 AM powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Following the direction of the topic speaking strictly non-canon: You could just add the Ancient master powers to the DMA stats. Those would be "in and above".
All this talk here seams trying to over-complicate things.

I am not sure how trying to combine the abilities of an OCC and a Power Category, from not perfectly compatible games that use different rules for such basic things as combat and chi would be the less complicated route to go....

By not over complicate things by trying to convert them. Just use the powers the come with the AM PC "as is".
I would say to limit the number of the AM powers added onto the DMA class to make a AM DMA. Maybe just 2+1d4 AM powers.

The AM only has five powers to start with....six if we count having Extraordinary PS (which is masterish)
Feign Death (not making me think master here)
Cleansing Spirit (I guess super healing is masterish)
Positive Energy (okay I guess Supernatural PS is doable)
Channel and Unleash Physical Energy (I guess if you want to add DBZ chi fireballs....)
Extraordinary Powers (I would really REALLY hesitate to add "okay mastery of Chi gives super powers" to N&SS but YMMV)

I just don't see how any of this helps.
And just taking bits of its martial arts skill to graft on to some other martial arts is just as complicated (and less 'natural') as just giving it mastery of its own martial art in the first place....

Well, there have been several options presented, but none of them seem quite right, I suppose.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:drewkitty~..~ are you thinking of something like this:

Ancient Master OCC

Actual Age: per HU
Time in the modern world: per HU
Level of experience: start at level 1 (instead of 1d6+3 in HU)
Hit Points: 15d6 +any bonuses from the base martial art and martial art powers
SDC: 3d6x10 +any bonuses from the base martial art and martial art powers
Skills and Education: per HU
Hand to Hand Ancient Master:
Begin with all 15 levels of combat bonuses of one of the martial arts in N&SS including Martial Art Powers AND all of the skills included in those arts such as languages and weapon katas. Then you add on the following bonuses as they progress into Ancient Master territory:

1st Level: +5 to damage, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm, +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death, +1 save vs Mind Control
2nd Level: +2 to initiative, +2 to parry, +1 to dodge, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +2 save vs Possession
3rd Level: +2 to initiative, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm , +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +2 save vs Possession
4th Level: +2 to initiative, +1 to strike, +2 to parry, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death, +2 save vs Possession
5th Level: +5 to damage, +1 to strike, +1 to dodge, +1 to auto-dodge, +1 to automatic body flip, +1 to disarm, +2 to pull punch, +1 to roll with punch, +2 save vs Horror Factor, +1 save vs Mind Control
6th Level: +1 disarm, +1 pull punch
7th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +5% save vs coma/death
8th Level: +1 attack, +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 roll with punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
9th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +1 to save vs Possession
10th Level: +1 attack, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +5% save vs coma/death
11th Level: +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry,
12th Level: +1 attack, +1 initiative, +1 strike, +1 parry, +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
13th Level: +1 roll with punch, +5% save vs coma/death
14th Level: +1 dodge, +1 auto-dodge, +1 automatic body flip, +1 disarm, +1 pull punch, +1 to save vs Horror Factor
15th Level: +1 attack, +5% save vs coma/death, +1 to save vs Possession

Ancient Weapon Proficiency: NO new proficiencies are gained, however all ancient weapon proficiencies that were a part of their original art gain a special one time bonus of 1d4+1 each.

Special Abilities: as per HU, so that these skills and abilities are in addition to those gained in their original art.

Equipment: as per HU (although the WP strike bonus is included above).

-STS

seems very over powered

Trent,

It is WAY overpowered, but that is since I approached it from the logic of:

eliakon wrote:I would, personally, say that getting to level 15 is not the definition of Ancient Master.

I would say that getting to level 15 is a good start.
In my opinion an Ancient Master is going to be....well a master.
He will know ALL the skills that are associated with his art. He will know all the techniques/katas/chi powers/what ever. Nevermind if that is possible just based on level.
They likely know ones even with out them being in the art...
They have collected skills and abilities like kids collect trading cards....
They are the guys who you average 10th to 15th level PC looks at and goes "Woah he is good"

and also looking at it from the point of view that the character has to compete with superheroes from Heroes Unlimited, not N&SS characters.

So, that is why I did what I did. Again, just my opinion.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:Trent,

It is WAY overpowered, but that is since I approached it from the logic of:

eliakon wrote:I would, personally, say that getting to level 15 is not the definition of Ancient Master.

I would say that getting to level 15 is a good start.
In my opinion an Ancient Master is going to be....well a master.
He will know ALL the skills that are associated with his art. He will know all the techniques/katas/chi powers/what ever. Nevermind if that is possible just based on level.
They likely know ones even with out them being in the art...
They have collected skills and abilities like kids collect trading cards....
They are the guys who you average 10th to 15th level PC looks at and goes "Woah he is good"

and also looking at it from the point of view that the character has to compete with superheroes from Heroes Unlimited, not N&SS characters.

So, that is why I did what I did. Again, just my opinion.

-STS

It's not a competition with the Heroes Unlimited version, it's to see about reflecting the Ancient Master as we often see them, with abilities above and beyond what the 'normal' master has. They're supposed to be more powerful and capable than the regular master. It also gives a player something extra to strive for for their character even if they'll never achieve it in the time a game lasts, since they should be very rare (outside of a manga like Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple where you see dozens of them competing both directly and in training up new students to prove who's the best).

I would not say that its a class in and of itself though....
I dislike the HU idea of a 'level 1 ancient master' not just no but HECK NO.
Instead for an Ancient master I would say start with a level 15 Martial Artist...now make him better than that....
NOW he is a real Ancient Master.

eliakon wrote:I would not say that its a class in and of itself though....
I dislike the HU idea of a 'level 1 ancient master' not just no but HECK NO.
Instead for an Ancient master I would say start with a level 15 Martial Artist...now make him better than that....
NOW he is a real Ancient Master.

That was kind of what I was shooting for...

-STS

eliakon wrote:I would not say that its a class in and of itself though....
I dislike the HU idea of a 'level 1 ancient master' not just no but HECK NO.
Instead for an Ancient master I would say start with a level 15 Martial Artist...now make him better than that....
NOW he is a real Ancient Master.

I don't think Heroes Unlimited has a Level 1 Ancient Master, I seem to remember a dice range that at minimum was like level 9, although I suppose that implies lesser levels that the character worked through before reaching that level.

It could be seen though as what happens after the master reaches level 15 (or whatever arbitrary level you set) and 'evolves' into an Ancient Master, he's now starting over in the new Ancient Master class whose prerequisite was being a level 15 Martial Artist. So he still has what he acquired to that point and is now earning Ancient Master bonuses with his new levels.

Going this route the Ancient Master is similar to the Palladium Fantasy Alchemist, which also requires levels in other classes before it can be taken (albeit restricted to NPC in that case). So the Martial Artist achieves what seemed like the pinnacle only to realize there more, becoming an Ancient Master after another level's experience and selecting a new special ability that only the elite Ancient Masters have trained enough to access.

HU1r AM starts @ L1...but it is more like they got so good at being a MA that they had to change class. Since they start out with their h2h at L15.

HU2 AM starts at level 1d6+3 or from 4-9. Their H2H bonuses are relative to their Level.

N&S (the conversion is of HU1r AM) starts @ Level 1. But their MAF start at ether L10 or L3 depending.... (not going to get into the interpretation argument.)

I liked the way that 1st Edition had it written up (15th level already), but 2nd Edition had the HtH (extrapolated by myself, above) so that the AM could actually improve with levels. If you combine both sets of rules, it makes it more...complete, I would think.

Good catch, drew.

-STS

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:HU1r AM starts @ L1...but it is more like they got so good at being a MA that they had to change class. Since they start out with their h2h at L15.

HU2 AM starts at level 1d6+3 or from 4-9. Their H2H bonuses are relative to their Level.

N&S (the conversion is of HU1r AM) starts @ Level 1. But their MAF start at ether L10 or L3 depending.... (not going to get into the interpretation argument.)

Thought it was 10/6/6 and locked...
Any case, I liked the way it was written, and hated the re-write in 2nd Ed.

Both sections (2 &3) use the same phrasing, using the words '...begin at...' when talking about the MAF levels.
None of the text says that the MAF are frozen at those levels.

My bad...starting at.
I essentially always thought it was locked.
Wheee! It's not, I's'a happy camper!

Wait...crap. It's not 2nd Ed...
I's a SAAAAAD camper.