Question regarding Rate of Fire definitions

[Michael Barakofsky]

Ok this is getting embarrassing, , I have been playing and running Rifts for 20 years and other palladium titles on and off for nearly as long. My core group has never changed in all that time and we all own nearly all the books (combined we do own all the books with at least 1 extra copy per book). I read the rules and definitions years ago, filed them away in my brain and called it good. Now that I am an MA and finally have a group of players (6 in all) that want to play Rifts I need to find the rules in book print again just to refresh my memory on how they work (want to make sure my house rules don't creep in and try to pass off as cannon) but I don't remember which book and page number the most recent definitions for the various rates of fire came out of. So my question is:

Can someone give me the book and page number where I can find the most recent definition for Rate of Fire: Standard and the rest of the rates of fire?

[Akashic Soldier]

Oh Gawd. I should know this. I know they're in the R:UE and the R:GMG but I don't know where. I will look it up later this afternoon. In short, Rate of Fire is how many times you can USE a weapon. Not how many times you can act in a melee. That often confuses people. For instance, when you throw a knife it has a Rate of Fire of 1 (because you can only throw it once) but most firearms do not have a limited rate of fire because you can fire as many times as you have attacks per melee.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Oh Gawd. I should know this. I know they're in the R:UE and the R:GMG but I don't know where. I will look it up later this afternoon. In short, Rate of Fire is how many times you can USE a weapon. Not how many times you can act in a melee. That often confuses people. For instance, when you throw a knife it has a Rate of Fire of 1 (because you can only throw it once) but most firearms do not have a limited rate of fire because you can fire as many times as you have attacks per melee.

Yeah I know the basics as you have said, but I have a player asking me if RoF: Standard means that bursts and full automatic firing are included which I don't believe they are but I need to specific book & page number to assist with this.

[Akashic Soldier]

Oh Gawd. I should know this. I know they're in the R:UE and the R:GMG but I don't know where. I will look it up later this afternoon. In short, Rate of Fire is how many times you can USE a weapon. Not how many times you can act in a melee. That often confuses people. For instance, when you throw a knife it has a Rate of Fire of 1 (because you can only throw it once) but most firearms do not have a limited rate of fire because you can fire as many times as you have attacks per melee.

Yeah I know the basics as you have said, but I have a player asking me if RoF: Standard means that bursts and full automatic firing are included which I don't believe they are but I need to specific book & page number to assist with this.

Yeah, they are as far as I know. Each Burst counts as one attack. Its just Aimed Shots and Called Shots count as one extra attack.

[Akashic Soldier]

Also Rules are listed on PG 34 of the RMB (the old version), with bonuses listed for aimed, burst and wild; not sure if they dumped it for RUE (though I think I remember a discussion about it)-

I'm still looking.

BURST
A burst is the shooting of several rounds, immediately one after another. Aim is more hasty and the recoil moves the weapon with each shot, reducing the accuracy. Semiautomatic/automatic weapons, machineguns and sub-machine guns, are designed for burst firing. The concept is that, while accuracy is reduced, the odds of hitting one's target with multiple rounds is increased because more shots are fired. Bonus to Strike is + 1 with all weapons.

Note: Roll to strike once to see if the entire burst hits. Do not roll for each individual bullet. If the burst misses its target, then all the rounds in that burst miss.

Highlighted the text in bold since most M.D. weapons except rail guns are not listed with these attributes (I think)-been awhile for me too-

Hope something helps-

Nah, its still in the R:UE. I didn't own the R:MB and I was familiar with the rules for bursting and stuff, so its certainly in there.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok this is getting embarrassing, , I have been playing and running Rifts for 20 years and other palladium titles on and off for nearly as long. My core group has never changed in all that time and we all own nearly all the books (combined we do own all the books with at least 1 extra copy per book). I read the rules and definitions years ago, filed them away in my brain and called it good. Now that I am an MA and finally have a group of players (6 in all) that want to play Rifts I need to find the rules in book print again just to refresh my memory on how they work (want to make sure my house rules don't creep in and try to pass off as cannon) but I don't remember which book and page number the most recent definitions for the various rates of fire came out of. So my question is:

Can someone give me the book and page number where I can find the most recent definition for Rate of Fire: Standard and the rest of the rates of fire?

Actually, RUE completely changed how rate of fire and weapon proficency and aimed shots work. the rules you have memorized are obsolete even if they wern't already houserules. Page 360 and the next few pages in RUE has the new rules, with lots of new situational modifiers, and it is' now impossible to make a called shot without taking multiple turns to do so.

The new modern weapon proficies has the new burst rules for each type of weapon on RUE page 328. "Standard" rates of fire mean nothing, as it no longer exists. the burst rules now depend solely on weapon type.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also Rules are listed on PG 34 of the RMB (the old version), with bonuses listed for aimed, burst and wild; not sure if they dumped it for RUE (though I think I remember a discussion about it)-

I'm still looking.

BURST
A burst is the shooting of several rounds, immediately one after another. Aim is more hasty and the recoil moves the weapon with each shot, reducing the accuracy. Semiautomatic/automatic weapons, machineguns and sub-machine guns, are designed for burst firing. The concept is that, while accuracy is reduced, the odds of hitting one's target with multiple rounds is increased because more shots are fired. Bonus to Strike is + 1 with all weapons.

Note: Roll to strike once to see if the entire burst hits. Do not roll for each individual bullet. If the burst misses its target, then all the rounds in that burst miss.

Highlighted the text in bold since most M.D. weapons except rail guns are not listed with these attributes (I think)-been awhile for me too-

Hope something helps-

Nah, its still in the R:UE. I didn't own the R:MB and I was familiar with the rules for bursting and stuff, so its certainly in there.

That's fine and I edited my post above as to what I found...but as asked what's the page number?
And what is the definition of Standard as to Rate of Fire?

Standard means whatever that weapon type counts as, it's different for each gun type.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Ok this is getting embarrassing, , I have been playing and running Rifts for 20 years and other palladium titles on and off for nearly as long. My core group has never changed in all that time and we all own nearly all the books (combined we do own all the books with at least 1 extra copy per book). I read the rules and definitions years ago, filed them away in my brain and called it good. Now that I am an MA and finally have a group of players (6 in all) that want to play Rifts I need to find the rules in book print again just to refresh my memory on how they work (want to make sure my house rules don't creep in and try to pass off as cannon) but I don't remember which book and page number the most recent definitions for the various rates of fire came out of. So my question is:

Can someone give me the book and page number where I can find the most recent definition for Rate of Fire: Standard and the rest of the rates of fire?

Actually, RUE completely changed how rate of fire and weapon proficency and aimed shots work. the rules you have memorized are obsolete even if they wern't already houserules. Page 360 and the next few pages in RUE has the new rules, with lots of new situational modifiers, and it is' now impossible to make a called shot without taking multiple turns to do so.

The new modern weapon proficies has the new burst rules for each type of weapon on RUE page 328. "Standard" rates of fire mean nothing, as it no longer exists. the burst rules now depend solely on weapon type.

Peachy, so basically your saying "welcome to headache central".

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ok this is getting embarrassing, , I have been playing and running Rifts for 20 years and other palladium titles on and off for nearly as long. My core group has never changed in all that time and we all own nearly all the books (combined we do own all the books with at least 1 extra copy per book). I read the rules and definitions years ago, filed them away in my brain and called it good. Now that I am an MA and finally have a group of players (6 in all) that want to play Rifts I need to find the rules in book print again just to refresh my memory on how they work (want to make sure my house rules don't creep in and try to pass off as cannon) but I don't remember which book and page number the most recent definitions for the various rates of fire came out of. So my question is:

Can someone give me the book and page number where I can find the most recent definition for Rate of Fire: Standard and the rest of the rates of fire?

Actually, RUE completely changed how rate of fire and weapon proficency and aimed shots work. the rules you have memorized are obsolete even if they wern't already houserules. Page 360 and the next few pages in RUE has the new rules, with lots of new situational modifiers, and it is' now impossible to make a called shot without taking multiple turns to do so.

The new modern weapon proficies has the new burst rules for each type of weapon on RUE page 328. "Standard" rates of fire mean nothing, as it no longer exists. the burst rules now depend solely on weapon type.

Peachy, so basically your saying "welcome to headache central".

Ehhh...yes and no. I hated it at first, but honestly compells me to admit the new rules are better balanced and actually make the game more tactical then "Do I burst or concerve ammo", including likes like moving targets, shooting while moving, rules for shooting beyond your guns maximum range at penalties, ect. they work, they work better than the origional, but they're almost more complex with more details to remember than the origional, which was very quick & dirty. It's a tradeoff. better rules for more complex rules. I suggest you not write them off entirely before giving them a shot, if your group dosn't like it after a good while you can always go back. I went in sure I was gonna hate it but I admit I grudgely grew to see some good to them.

[Dinne]

Speaking of rate of fire.. If you want to make things more confusing you can always just throw archery in there for fun. The more I look at it, the more it seems like ROF should be the maximum number of attacks, with said weapon, that can be made in 15 seconds.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Nekira Sudacne thank you for the page numbers, after having read the rules in the RUE I think I am going to be sticking with the way I have been doing it for years now.

RoF: Standard = 1 action used for weapons that fire single shot, 3 round burst, pulse (like the Wilks 457), and rail guns that have a fixed X rounds to do Y damage.
For weapons that are more like machine guns and can fire single, short, medium, long and full melee bursts action consumption is 1, 1, 2, 4 & ALL respectively. This applies to both slug throwers and the rare energy weapon that can fire similar to machine guns.

As far as burst damage is concerned my house rules are short = 1 round x2 (10% of clip minimum of 3 shots fired), medium = 1 round x5 (25% of clip minimum of 6 shots fired), long = 1 round x10 (50% of clip minimum of 15 shots fired), full melee = 1 round x20 [100% of clip minimum of 30 shots fired (for belt feed or unlimited energy weapons 30 shots are fired)]

[Akashic Soldier]

Speaking of rate of fire.. If you want to make things more confusing you can always just throw archery in there for fun. The more I look at it, the more it seems like ROF should be the maximum number of attacks, with said weapon, that can be made in 15 seconds.

That is what it is.

[ghost2020]

I've had to tweak the burst fire rules too, i still want laser rifles to burst fire, as i'm not finding specifically where in the R:UE they can do that.

I also give the P.P. bonus to shoot ranged weapons, no -10 to dodge (that's just silly) and it balances out just fine. Plus it just makes sense, not sure why that rule was ever in place.

Also a -5 or -10 to next action instead of losing next attack due to doge. Just makes more sense and flows a bit better, for my group.

[Michael Barakofsky]

I also give the P.P. bonus to shoot ranged weapons, no -10 to dodge (that's just silly) and it balances out just fine. Plus it just makes sense, not sure why that rule was ever in place.

Well the -10 to dodge rule was made to reflect how hard it is for a person to avoid being shot in real life. Generally speaking a bullet flys faster then the speed of sound so the target is going to be hit unless they are already moving in such a way that makes it a close call (this is assuming the shooter is skilled with the weapon). I don't know about you but I can't move faster then sound.

Lasers and energy weapons are even worse as those shots technically travel at near the speed of light. A true realistic rule would be that if the roll to hit with an energy weapon is successful there is no chance to dodge or avoid the damage as the shot is simply traveling too fast to react to, this would also not be very fun to play either.

The way I do it in my group is -6 from your total dodge bonus to avoid projectiles and -10 to avoid energy attacks. This still gives the character in question a chance at having some kind of bonus to the roll. (Example: +12 to dodge normally being shot by a .357 magnum +12 - 6 = +6 to dodge the shot. +12 to dodge normally being shot by a Wilks 457 pulse laser rifle +12 - 10 = +2 to dodge. Not as good of a chane but the pulse laser shot is also moving faster then the bullet too so it gives the flavor of realism.)

[ghost2020]

This has been covered a million times, but you're not dodging a bullet, you're dodging a shooter's ability to hit a target.

Statistically ones chances to hit a target in combat or a high pressure situation are quite small even for experienced veterans.
In a battlefield scenario it's much worse as so much is happening.

I will give it that dodge bonuses can spike up due to abilities and what not, but that -10 rule didn't show up until palladium fantasy's longbow-man class (i think). It wasn't originally part of the original RIFTS rules. It seems to be part of the standard Palladium rules now though.
I guess i'm just not a fan of it, as we've run so long without it. (just my two cents)

[Michael Barakofsky]

Granted I have only been playing Rifts for around 20 years and there are those out there with more time in Palladium games then me but for my experience there has always been a penalty to dodge gunfire. My original copy of the Rifts RPG had it as a -8 instead of -10, and the as far as I can recall the PFRPG Longbowman has a reduced penalty to dodge projectiles, -3 I think. Now I will state that I have never played 1st edition PFRPG by the time I was a Palladium fan the 2nd edition stuff was out for PFRPG and the number of games I have played in that setting I can count on 1 hand, I have nothing against fantasy I like it just my group does more in Rifts then PFRPG. But for what I can recall there has always been some kind of penalty to dodge gunfire and the original explanation of why is the speed the bullet, beam, bolt or what have you is traveling at. NOT ARGUING! Like you ghost2020 I am just explaining what I know.

[ghost2020]

What page in the original book is that modifier? My printing might not have it.

[Michael Barakofsky]

If I still had my original copy I would be all to happy to tell you sadly (or maybe luckily depending on your perspective) my dogs munched it right around the time the black hard back with silver letters & image was released. I had to go about 2 weeks without the main book waiting for my hobby store to get a copy in. Then several years later in a different house with different dogs my hardback got eaten and I didn't have a main book til the RUE was published which I think was for 5 years give or take.

And before you ask I have no idea why my dogs ate those books, it was a random incident both times with no warning that my dogs were contemplating such an action.

Maybe they were trying to tell me I was spending too much time playing Rifts and not enough time with them, I don't know.

[ghost2020]

Oh man ! I'm so sorry to hear that! Gah! That's rough.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Yeah just glad that when I first got it that I spent so much time reading it that I practically had the book memorized. I used to be able to quote the rule and be within 2 pages of where it was printed, I use pictures as navigational landmarks instead of page numbers, lol, but yeah it was difficult once the black hardback got munched until the RUE came out. However I absolutely HATE how Palladium changed the Modern Weapon Proficiencies in the RUE I have been working with the old +3 for any modern/hi-tech weapon (+4 for revolvers) +1 every 3rd level for 20 years or so that was the first thing I had memorized after only about an hour of owning the book. To me the new rules are too much rigamaroll & trouble to use, I tried to use them in my Dead Reign campaign and combat went from smooth easy flowing to taking on average almost a full minute to resolve 1 shooting attack (partly because what I had memorized kept trying to creep in for use) and one large scale fight with 4 characters trying to use tactics and group firing to kill a herd of zombies took almost an hour to get resolved (by the rules I had memorized I could have resolved it in 15 minutes or less) so I hate what Palladium did to those rules.

[ghost2020]

Yup, same here. They pretty much took the bite out of the autofire rules. The MDC of armor went up, but the weapons now do less damage per shot.

I have used the old rules (or a small variation of them) since day one and will continue to use them, as i still want my old Coalition weapons to burst fire.
RIFTS, for me, has always been a fairly deadly game, and i plan on keeping it that way.

Still, a one page list of house rules isn't too bad, little tweaks and such over the course of decades, not too shabby for my favorite game.

[Michael Barakofsky]

Ghost2020 you stated above that you give a -5 or -10 to the next attack after a dodge instead of the character losing the next attack. That sounds like a cool idea in my group the character that dodged (assuming no auto-dodge is possible) loses an attack NOT their next attack, so if a character has 7 attacks in a melee and dodges twice the last 2 attacks were consumed making those dodge attempts. It keeps the flow of combat uninterrupted and gives Palladium's Dodge Monster its meal for the melee in question.

My Rifts campaign has gotten more deadly then the book print over the years. The players in my game each have a character with a hardware class out of Heroes Unlimited 2. They have access to all 4 of those classes, partly thats my fault because I stated that HU2 along with BTS is direct line history of my Rifts Earth. 3 Mega-Hardware characters 1 Weapons/Mechanical, 1 Electrical/Analytical and 1 Mechanical/Electrical. All 3 characters were rolled up for an HU game I was running and all 3 rolled the Mega-Hero Immortal power so when I started to run Rifts and made my statement about direct history the players pulled out their immortal characters and said "Did they survive the cataclysm?"

This blind sided me so I rolled some percentile dice and yeah they survived, so my Rifts campaign started out with running the cataclysm and the characters trying to save people while the world was turning upside down. Well that campaign after about 1 month (game time) became a pan-dimensional campaign (kinda like Sliders meets Dr. Who, I took the idea from Marvle Comics Excalibur title where the team was being taken on a joy ride in a train from 1 dimension to another) I had my group snatched away from Rifts Earth via a sucking rift, I also had this rift deposit/fuse rift energy within each characters genetic structure. For the next several years the group was bouncing from 1 dimension to another at random (I confess I was running by the seat of my pants, with this group making an actual game plan is impossible as they tend to either run away from the plot or hog tie the plot and place it in front of a firing squad) I had the group go to PFRPG, Nightbane, Robotech (by my percentiles just a month before the SDF-1 actually crashed on Earth so the characters were in on its reconstruction and travel back to Earth. By dumb luck of percentile rolls the hardware characters were on Dr. Langs team and managed to learn Robotechnology along with him.), I even had the characters go outside of Palladium RPG realms, I sent them into Star Trek, Babylon 5 (durring the Shadow War), Star Wars between the time of episode 1 & 2, Transformers Earth well actually the group landed on Cybertron durring the Golden Age and got to meet Orion Pax then assisted with Orion's repair/reconstruction into Optimus Prime, Battlestar Galactica, and a few other settings that I can't recall off the top of my head. Then I landed the characters in Center on Phase World where one of the 2nd Stage Prometheans was able to stabalize the cellular rift energy making random jumps almost a thing of the past. My group had a blast with it and the Cross-Dimensional Capers campaign took almost 6 years (real time) alone to get resolved.

Once the group got back to Rifts Earth they were shocked to learn they missed the entire dark ages it was 105 PA. So they became a merc group and used all the advanced science they learned from their travels and the advanced technology they had accidentally stolen (what they were carrying on person disappeared with them when they jumped), to give themselves the upperhand. Well I created an NPC in the CS that is a natural born techhead, he started out as a lieutenant and after stealing some of the characters gear and reverse engineering it and applying it to CS equipment he became a general with command over his own special unit. A unit designed to monitor and try to capture the players whenever they enter CS territory. The players still don't know why sometimes they can easily destroy CS gear and vehicles and sometimes the CS troops manage to go toe to toe with them and force a retreat from CS territory.

The average energy pistol in my Rifts campaign employed by either a PC or the special CS unit inflicts 1D6x10 MD with a 5D6 SD setting, energy rifles do 2D6x10 single shot, 4D6x10 short burst, 1D6x100 medium burst, 2D6x100 long burst and 4D6x100 full melee burst in MD (on SD mode its 1/2 the MD). The hardware weapons character is still trying to construct micro-photon torpedos but he can't seem to make 5 01 rolls back to back to fabricate them yet. So lethality has increased from what is book standard print.

[Nomadic]

This has been covered a million times, but you're not dodging a bullet, you're dodging a shooter's ability to hit a target.

Statistically ones chances to hit a target in combat or a high pressure situation are quite small even for experienced veterans.
In a battlefield scenario it's much worse as so much is happening.

I will give it that dodge bonuses can spike up due to abilities and what not, but that -10 rule didn't show up until palladium fantasy's longbow-man class (i think). It wasn't originally part of the original RIFTS rules. It seems to be part of the standard Palladium rules now though.
I guess i'm just not a fan of it, as we've run so long without it. (just my two cents)

This is because we are flesh and bone... it would be much different if we had armor that could take 10-12 hits before giving up. Also we are firing "slow" moving rounds compared to the speed of light, point, pull, hit.

Load up any FPS like quake or Unreal with Laser pew pew weapons and tell me you can dodge, you can bob and weave and I'll still hit you because as soon as the target lines up your hit due to the speed of light equation. Now load up Counter-Strike and it's a much MUCH different world.