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Seeing as how even Cyborgs can learn this Zenjoriki it got me wondering... what vanishes? Would cybernetic devices attached to the body also vanish from reality? What about cyborg armor?

Ignoring the bionic route, let's say a samurai is wearing some padded cloth armor. Would it vanish with him? Or would the clothing drop to the ground during the brief moment of absence and when the character re-appears he is standing on top of it?

It says you're only gone about a melee attack or 3 seconds but I figure that's long enough for anything you're not holding to drop to the ground. So in the process of regenerating your chi, could a person put themselves at risk through disarming themself?

It makes me wonder too: beyond being disarmed, is there any danger to this? Say for example you were holding some ninja stars or caltrops, and then you Zenjorike'd and reappeared... and were standing on top of them? You could vanish to get some chi to try and heal an injury to your hand only to unintentionally further injur yourself elsewhere!

Also wondering when it says (besides restoring all chi) that you are at "fully invigorated" and "glowing with health". We know it cures the Dim Mak (which is basically an injury to chi regeneration) but does anyone take that flavour text further? What is 'health' and 'vigor' that someone is glowing with it, that it is "full"? HP and SDC are aspects of health and vigor... would they be restored to full? What if you're poisoned or have an illness? If injuries or sickness remained after discorporation could we honestly say that someone is 'fully' invigorated?

Tor wrote:Seeing as how even Cyborgs can learn this Zenjoriki it got me wondering... what vanishes? Would cybernetic devices attached to the body also vanish from reality? What about cyborg armor?

Ignoring the bionic route, let's say a samurai is wearing some padded cloth armor. Would it vanish with him? Or would the clothing drop to the ground during the brief moment of absence and when the character re-appears he is standing on top of it?

It says you're only gone about a melee attack or 3 seconds but I figure that's long enough for anything you're not holding to drop to the ground. So in the process of regenerating your chi, could a person put themselves at risk through disarming themself?

It makes me wonder too: beyond being disarmed, is there any danger to this? Say for example you were holding some ninja stars or caltrops, and then you Zenjorike'd and reappeared... and were standing on top of them? You could vanish to get some chi to try and heal an injury to your hand only to unintentionally further injur yourself elsewhere!

Also wondering when it says (besides restoring all chi) that you are at "fully invigorated" and "glowing with health". We know it cures the Dim Mak (which is basically an injury to chi regeneration) but does anyone take that flavour text further? What is 'health' and 'vigor' that someone is glowing with it, that it is "full"? HP and SDC are aspects of health and vigor... would they be restored to full? What if you're poisoned or have an illness? If injuries or sickness remained after discorporation could we honestly say that someone is 'fully' invigorated?

Grrr, not near book atm. Isn't this the power that essentially removes you from the game because it kills you, because it's the first step in becoming an Enlightened Immortal?

If it's that, then I'd say you'd be reborn just like you were originally.

If it's something you can use at any time, then do this: Take your hand, place it against your chest with the thumb touching. Anything that could fit in a space that large surrounding you should be able to go with you.

The "fully invigorated" and "glowing with health" means full SDC, HP, MDC, ISP, PPE, and Chi (either positive or negative), and you are well rested. No injuries, disease, or poison affecting you.

The Beast wrote:Grrr, not near book atm. Isn't this the power that essentially removes you from the game because it kills you, because it's the first step in becoming an Enlightened Immortal?

If you use it too often, yes, there's a considerable risk of being removed from play and thus and such. But so long as you fire it up no more than once a day, you can invariably pop back in a moment later, guaranteed.

Regularguy wrote:

The Beast wrote:Grrr, not near book atm. Isn't this the power that essentially removes you from the game because it kills you, because it's the first step in becoming an Enlightened Immortal?

If you use it too often, yes, there's a considerable risk of being removed from play and thus and such. But so long as you fire it up no more than once a day, you can invariably pop back in a moment later, guaranteed.

Yeah, I knew it was in there, but didn't remember the exact details.

The Beast wrote:

Regularguy wrote:

The Beast wrote:Grrr, not near book atm. Isn't this the power that essentially removes you from the game because it kills you, because it's the first step in becoming an Enlightened Immortal?

If you use it too often, yes, there's a considerable risk of being removed from play and thus and such. But so long as you fire it up no more than once a day, you can invariably pop back in a moment later, guaranteed.

Yeah, I knew it was in there, but didn't remember the exact details.

You remembered almost book perfect, although you come back bursting with positive chi (so not likely a negative chi character would use such a power ever) and cures everything including Dim Mak.

I always pictured it as you simply vanish and reappear wherever you were standing a moment later. All your cloths/possessions don't go with you, so your now standing naked. if you were on a dangerous thing, such as being impaled on a spike, you will be instantly re-impaled when you return.

Even though the period of absence is brief, it makes me wonder what happens if you used this when on a moving vehicle, like a motorcycle. Appear in mid-air, the bike 10 feet in front of you? Perhaps if it were big enough, like if you used it on the front of a plane or train, you might appear at the middle or back, hopefully not fusing into any stewardesses in the aisle.

I figure there has to be SOME conservation of momentum though. Otherwise the earth would keep spinning/moving through space and someone using it might appear in the middle of a vacuum.

This would give yet another sensible reason to the "evil" characters who see the danger in such a skill.

It does mention that evil characters will tend not to want to use it, fearing the loss of their ego/self (and rightly so). It makes me wonder if there is some way for someone to opt to (perhaps with assistance) forget skills or martial arts powers, like Zenjorike.

Do you think a partial (yet permanent) mind wipe could help rid a villain of the temptation? I could see someone trying this kind of like how in that Jim Carrey movie people are mind-wiping to avoid perceived self-destructive behaviours, or how an alcoholic might remove all the beer from their home. I know there's permanent penalties to a psionic to TOTALLY wipe a mind blank, but permanently wiping portions seems to only have a temporary cost. I'm just not sure how extensive that selective wipe can be, if it's just for tiny things like names/phone numbers/events of a day or if it can apply to entire areas of knowledge like skills or spells.

Nightmask wrote:you come back bursting with positive chi (so not likely a negative chi character would use such a power ever)

Well... maybe not someone made of pure negative chi, but a negative chi master might opt to do this if he wanted to heal himself and didn't have time to spend a melee converting his negative back to positive.

Nightmask wrote:and cures everything including Dim Mak.

I'm a bit unclear, I know it does Dim Mak but while there's a strong implication of it curing other conditions, I really wish it was more explicit about that.

Tor wrote:Even though the period of absence is brief, it makes me wonder what happens if you used this when on a moving vehicle, like a motorcycle. Appear in mid-air, the bike 10 feet in front of you? Perhaps if it were big enough, like if you used it on the front of a plane or train, you might appear at the middle or back, hopefully not fusing into any stewardesses in the aisle.

The real question is: what happens if you try to teleport on a PW ship moving FTL?

I am now brainstorming to see if there is some way I can easily bestow this power to others and force them to use it. Do we have a Grant Powers type thing for skills? Sometimes martial arts powers (even mystic ones) could be seen as skills... this could really be weaponized. Shoot your for with the discorporate-gun, they come back fresh as a daisy, cured of the flue, and then are turned inside-out by the vacuum of space.

Now I'm trying to figure out some super abilities to combine with Grant Powers which I could inflict on people...

Imagine if you had grant powers and bestowed "Unnoteworthy - Forgettable" on someone who thought everyone was ignoring them?

Or bestowed Cloaking on a movie star? Or invulnerability on someone who wanted to get plastic surgery?

So many passive powers that can't be turned off, so little time.

Although the timer makes things hard.

Tor wrote:I am now brainstorming to see if there is some way I can easily bestow this power to others and force them to use it. Do we have a Grant Powers type thing for skills? Sometimes martial arts powers (even mystic ones) could be seen as skills... this could really be weaponized. Shoot your for with the discorporate-gun, they come back fresh as a daisy

And then make him discorporate a second time, in hopes that he won't come back; failing that, fire up a third dose, followed by a fourth...

Yup. It makes me wonder like if someone knew Discorporate (if there could be a way to force-teach someone a spell, I could've sworn SOMEWHERE out there there was a way to imbue some skills via spells) if you mind-controlled them if you could force them to do it.

Or alternative, if you had a psionic with Mentally Possess Others who also knew how to Discorporate, could they Discorporate within their possessed body? If so, which (or both?) would be at risk of the temptation?

Tor wrote:Yup. It makes me wonder like if someone knew Discorporate (if there could be a way to force-teach someone a spell, I could've sworn SOMEWHERE out there there was a way to imbue some skills via spells) if you mind-controlled them if you could force them to do it.

Or alternative, if you had a psionic with Mentally Possess Others who also knew how to Discorporate, could they Discorporate within their possessed body? If so, which (or both?) would be at risk of the temptation?

Standard Palladium rule is if you order someone under mind control to do something that would kill themselves the mind control is instantly broken.

Discorporate doesn't kill you though. =) It's actually a healing process that can help you avoid death (like from Dim Mak). People who permanently discorporate don't die. They just go to a happy place they don't want to come back from.

If I MPO and tell someone to abandon their posts and go to Pleasure World, I don't think that breaks control. It's like that.

Tor wrote:Discorporate doesn't kill you though. =) It's actually a healing process that can help you avoid death (like from Dim Mak). People who permanently discorporate don't die. They just go to a happy place they don't want to come back from.
.

Yeah, but do THEY know that?

I always figured the 'goes against PC's alignment' or 'looks suicidal' is by their perception of an ordered task.
Although a generous GM might allow that the same impulsion from outside that forces a person to do something might carry a part of the directing intelligence's intent to the dominated person, so if the dominator KNOWS that sending that person to walk in the subway tunnel is meant to meet the oncoming train or step on the third rail, the meat-puppet can pick up on it and break the control-hold.

And if your intent is to permanently remove somebody from play, that might be interpreted as 'death', however enlightened or pleasant.

taalismn wrote:

Tor wrote:Discorporate doesn't kill you though. =) It's actually a healing process that can help you avoid death (like from Dim Mak). People who permanently discorporate don't die. They just go to a happy place they don't want to come back from.
.

Yeah, but do THEY know that?

I always figured the 'goes against PC's alignment' or 'looks suicidal' is by their perception of an ordered task.
Although a generous GM might allow that the same impulsion from outside that forces a person to do something might carry a part of the directing intelligence's intent to the dominated person, so if the dominator KNOWS that sending that person to walk in the subway tunnel is meant to meet the oncoming train or step on the third rail, the meat-puppet can pick up on it and break the control-hold.

And if your intent is to permanently remove somebody from play, that might be interpreted as 'death', however enlightened or pleasant.

If you know enough to order someone to Discorporate you likely know enough to know you aren't ordering someone to death but immortality instead. But once they discorporate they'd be purged of the control so likely wouldn't choose to permanently discorporate at that point.

I'm not clear if learning to discorporate actually means you know you've been made into an immortal as a result of using it.

This may not be something you actually find out until you die and get reincarnated.

You would have to offensively discorporate a foe more than one for them to be tempted. Whether or not they consent to discorporate is kinda irrelevant. Drugs are addictive whether you consent to shoot up or not.

Tor wrote:I'm not clear if learning to discorporate actually means you know you've been made into an immortal as a result of using it.

This may not be something you actually find out until you die and get reincarnated.

You would have to offensively discorporate a foe more than one for them to be tempted. Whether or not they consent to discorporate is kinda irrelevant. Drugs are addictive whether you consent to shoot up or not.

Depends whether you view the process as a rote physical mechanism or as a spiritual process.
The Zenjoriki ability as a martial arts technique or power is learned, and as such the person has to WANT it, and goes through a process of learning and preparing themselves mentally and philosophically to make that step and discorporate. It's not an infection or an injection, it's a meditation that leads to a state of trascendance.
It's like trying to force somebody into a religion...even if they go through the motions and say the prayers under your watchful eye, you can't be 100% certain they really believe, and their internal resistance and denial of your imposed beliefs keeps them from being truly of the new faith.
If you could do it anyway, I wouldn't really consider that to be Zenjoriki; more like a superpower or magic ritual, and it should be formatted as such.

Zenjoriki are martial arts powers, martial arts techniques are a different class of martial arts powers

I'm not sure I agere if you have to 'want' something to learn it, or if you have to want to use a power to use it. The hypothetical example here is that your body is possessed, after all.

Basically, if the soul of the person whose body it is is not brought along for the ride when a possessing force discorporates (assuming you can use discorporate while possessing another person's body) then would the soul be left behind as a wandering spirit? Perhaps turned into a possessing entity itself?

I always thought that the whole char, stuff he is wearing included, gets discorporated. But then have not really thought about this subject. However, the w/o anything else goes along with what Neil deGrass Tyson postulated on his 'ghost hunters' episode on his podcast Star Talk, that if ghost are real, then they would be nude, cause "You Can't Take It With You" when you die.

As to reappearing in the same spot....I would say that the char would not re-corporate into a spot where he would take damage by re-corporating there. Such as NK's example. This because while dis-corperated they are 'at one with the Tao' and would know that they could not re-corperate into that spot.

@ Tor: the char can not discorporate others.

Tor wrote:Zenjoriki are martial arts powers, martial arts techniques are a different class of martial arts powers

I'm not sure I agere if you have to 'want' something to learn it, or if you have to want to use a power to use it. The hypothetical example here is that your body is possessed, after all.

Basically, if the soul of the person whose body it is is not brought along for the ride when a possessing force discorporates (assuming you can use discorporate while possessing another person's body) then would the soul be left behind as a wandering spirit? Perhaps turned into a possessing entity itself?

I tend to regard the martial arts powers as a more spiritual thing. What you describe is more along the lines of offensive magic or curses, forcing somebody into an ability or state, forcefeeding the ability to them.
Frankly, I wouldn't allow the application of Zenjoriki by a possessing force as you describe. I'd say the PC, if they wanted to do something like that, would have to have a different set of powers/abilities to pull off such a stunt.


Of course, if you're dealing with essentially god-level beings, you can have them do whatever they want and call it a distant and hyper-evolved version of mortal Zenjoriki, but that's handwavium.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I always thought that the whole char, stuff he is wearing included, gets discorporated. But then have not really thought about this subject.

Part of the problem is if it is more than just the body we have to figure out just how far it extends.

I'm fearful of some superhero mechano-linking with a starship and making it vanish to avoid a black hole gun.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the w/o anything else goes along with what Neil deGrass Tyson postulated on his 'ghost hunters' episode on his podcast Star Talk, that if ghost are real, then they would be nude, cause "You Can't Take It With You" when you die.

This would only apply if a ghost's appearance as a mirror of their last physical appearance. Since ghosts sometimes take on their preferred appearance (a mental projection) clothing could be part of that as well. Much as I hate the Anakin changes to Return of the Jedi.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I would say that the char would not re-corporate into a spot where he would take damage by re-corporating there. This because while dis-corperated they are 'at one with the Tao' and would know that they could not re-corperate into that spot.

I'm unclear how much specific situation knowledge one might have of the surrounding area while discorporating.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:@ Tor: the char can not discorporate others.

Part of the problem about this question (which I'm not sure can be answered one way or another) is that we don't know which martial arts powers can be used when possessing others.

What might be some hint is the pg166 conversion notes for HU in N&SS where it talks about what happens if someone uses Mimic... ugh...

It DOES mental Transferal/Possession. I think I just didn't notice it at first because it was near the spine of the book.

Okay so what a Mimic or Possessor can use is:
*Art of Mystic Invisibility
*Chi Gung
*All chi abilities
*All chi skills
*Kaijutsu
*Martial Arts Awareness
*Calm Minds
*Karumi-Jutsu
*Mind Walk
*Vibrating Palm

What I am left confused about is the context of this note. It could be referring to one of two things
1. If a superhero with possession invades the body of a martial artist
2. If a superhero martial artist with possession invades someone else

The context of Mimic similarly also not sure of, since it could mean:
1. If a superhero with mimic copied the body of a martial artist
2. If a superhero martial artist with mimic copied someone else

Anyone have any thoughts on how to reason which of the two options for these powers (or both? neither?) are probably meant by the 4th-last item discussed on N&SSpg166?

It is worth noting though that these notes came out prior to Mystic China and it's new abilities, and that all Zenjoriki powers available at the time were usable.

taalismn wrote:I tend to regard the martial arts powers as a more spiritual thing. What you describe is more along the lines of offensive magic or curses, forcing somebody into an ability or state, forcefeeding the ability to them.

Offense can be a subjective thing at times. When the Light makes you into a Guardian, it's just "helping" you, right?

taalismn wrote:I wouldn't allow the application of Zenjoriki by a possessing force as you describe. I'd say the PC, if they wanted to do something like that, would have to have a different set of powers/abilities to pull off such a stunt.

Like what?

taalismn wrote:if you're dealing with essentially god-level beings, you can have them do whatever they want and call it a distant and hyper-evolved version of mortal Zenjoriki, but that's handwavium.

I'm not sure why you'd need a different version, basically the issue is who can use Zenjoriki where, and who is brought along when there's more than 1 mind in a body.

Tor wrote:[

taalismn wrote:I wouldn't allow the application of Zenjoriki by a possessing force as you describe. I'd say the PC, if they wanted to do something like that, would have to have a different set of powers/abilities to pull off such a stunt.

Like what?.

Teleport and Intangibility(modified to be Usable On Others) right off the top of my head. Psionics: Empathic Projection, if you want to bliss them out while you're doing it.

Or, you'd be better off creating whole new powers(with appropriate saving throws against) rather than trying to shoehorn Zenjoriki into the role of your person-possessor-and-discorporator-with-a-side-order-of-permanent-transformation. Check the Black Vault maintained by Stone Gargoyle; there might already be powers like Alter Physical Form: Cloud or suchlike. If not, you have the opportunity to create and post several new powers at the least.

But again, that's Handwavium in action.

Again, my personal opinion is I wouldn't allow people to use Zenjoriki the way you describe it. In fact, anybody using that to pop people into blissful-no-return would graduate to the top of agency and clan slay-on-sight lists.

I agree that doing something like that would be looked down upon... when it happens to people who are cared for by those who are competent enough to figure out what's going on.

Much like Long-Distance Dim Mak I imagine a lot of that might go under the radar though.

There are probably supervillain assassins out there using Possession to make victims jump off buildings or some nonsense, but hero teams, super sleuths and SCRET are probably tracking their patterns and zeroing in on them.

It's a lot harder when the body ceases to exist though. That's like if you get pulled into the Dream Stream by a Morpheomoth in terms of tracking difficulty.

Tor wrote:I agree that doing something like that would be looked down upon... when it happens to people who are cared for by those who are competent enough to figure out what's going on.

Much like Long-Distance Dim Mak I imagine a lot of that might go under the radar though.

There are probably supervillain assassins out there using Possession to make victims jump off buildings or some nonsense, but hero teams, super sleuths and SCRET are probably tracking their patterns and zeroing in on them.

It's a lot harder when the body ceases to exist though. That's like if you get pulled into the Dream Stream by a Morpheomoth in terms of tracking difficulty.

It's the Atrocity of the Month episode where the big bad comes up with something really nasty and seems unstoppable. Then somebody figures out how the big bad is gaming the system and figures out a way to re-instate Universal Conformity and brings the hammer down on them, whereupon the bad guy becomes the last victim of his particular stunt or, more likely, permanently loses the advantage of it and vows he'll return to find some OTHER way of making everybody miserable.

I guess figuring out who is behind Long Distance Dim Mak or Discorporation or Dream-Pool-snatching would still be easier than figuring out who is behind a Death Note. If that's possible then almost anything is.