Forums of the Megaverse®

Instead of posting in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=140288&start=100 which has gone off topic IMO I'me just starting a new thread. Of course I'm sure this thread will become just as convoluted, but that's how things are on the forums these days.

1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’.

2) Include the under intake MRM’s you see in the various model kits, and no I don’t mean to call these ‘field modifications’ as some have because we see them in the model kits. These capabilities are obviously from some sort of OSM material (model sheet, blue prints etc) or else they would not have shown up in the model kit in the first place.

3) Include the shoulder SRM pods from the model kits as well. Now. I don’t even need to use the same justification as the under intake MRM’s. If you check out page 70 of Robotech TSC: Deluxe edition you can see a shoulder missile pod mounted on a jet mode Alpha (the one with the gun pod mounted on the topside of the mecha). Looks like somebody forgot to include their official game stats in the deluxe edition RPG book.

4) Each wing should have a single hard point. Yes the wing hard points preclude transformation, but this will allow the mecha to carry LRMs. The Logan has wing hard points, so why not the Alpha? In fact the Alpha is the only veritech in the RPG that does not have hard points on the wings.

I would also recommend:

5) The gunpod be recharged just like the Logan, Ajax, and Hovertank (Something that I talked to Marker, and got the impression that it should be there but was not thought of at the time).

Tiree wrote:I would also recommend:

5) The gunpod be recharged just like the Logan, Ajax, and Hovertank (Something that I talked to Marker, and got the impression that it should be there but was not thought of at the time).

Good point.

jedi078 wrote:1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’. [...]

But the VF-1 is a much higher-performance fighter overall, so it makes sense for it to have the additional high performance bonuses... though they also come with significant penalties once the plane is damaged. An Alpha may not have the bonuses (which it shouldn't, since it's much lower performance than a VF-1) but it doesn't suffer the penalties either. IMO, that much is a wash, since it won't be suffering any 50% penalties to all its maneuvering rolls if it takes a fair amount of damage in a scrap.

jedi078 wrote:2) Include the under intake MRM’s you see in the various model kits, and no I don’t mean to call these ‘field modifications’ as some have because we see them in the model kits. These capabilities are obviously from some sort of OSM material (model sheet, blue prints etc) or else they would not have shown up in the model kit in the first place.

Actually, those "first strike missiles" are not part of the series animation model sheets. As far as I'm aware, it was something that was created specifically for the transforming toys to make them more "action-figureous". They're not even so much as mentioned in the MOSPEADA OSM, though they do appear in the Complete Art Works book's toy gallery.

I think they'd be problematic because of the range of motion of the mecha's hips and the lack of clearance for exhaust in battloid mode.

jedi078 wrote:3) Include the shoulder SRM pods from the model kits as well. Now. I don’t even need to use the same justification as the under intake MRM’s.

Pod, singular, really... the pod was created as an alternate gun pod mounting method during the design of the OSM's Legioss armo-fighter. It's totally OSM, and honestly is easy enough to add to the game. It sits in that little valley between the two shoulder launchers in fighter mode, and holds eight of the same missiles that the other launchers do. Not a bad little upgrade, IMO. It attaches to one of the shoulders during transformation, and otherwise stays out of the way.

jedi078 wrote:4) Each wing should have a single hard point. Yes the wing hard points preclude transformation, but this will allow the mecha to carry LRMs. The Logan has wing hard points, so why not the Alpha? In fact the Alpha is the only veritech in the RPG that does not have hard points on the wings.

Well, to be fair, none of the VFs after the VF-1, and indeed all of the non-variable fighters are unable to carry long-range missiles. The same goes for the non-variable fighters. Only the larger Macross Saga mecha have the ability to take LRMs (the VF-1, the F203, S-12, and so on). This may simply be because LRMs in RT are fairly sizable missiles even by modern standards, and the craft that came after the VF-1 aren't working with engines nearly as powerful, and their airframes are much smaller with less wing area.

I think they opted to stick to the OSM for the subject of the Alpha's armaments becuase the Alpha's design isn't very conducive to trying to stick ordinance on the wings or the underside of the intakes, on account of how the plane transforms and its low ground clearance.

Tiree wrote:I would also recommend:

5) The gunpod be recharged just like the Logan, Ajax, and Hovertank (Something that I talked to Marker, and got the impression that it should be there but was not thought of at the time).

This, I absolutely agree with wholeheartedly. The Alpha's gun pod should have a fixed power cell that simply recharges off the mecha's power plant. I think it should recharge much faster than the Logan's or Spartas's, since it's a protoculture power system.




EDIT: Honestly, I'd call the Alpha a decent mecha as-is... it compares favorably to most any other mecha in the game except the VF-1. It seems a little unfair to imply that it's not a decent mecha when it's still better than almost any other mecha in the game, and is only outclassed by one exceptional design.

I don't agree with the wing hard points...... all performance indicators and armaments indicate the Alpha is a short range defensive fighter. It protects the fleet capital ships against enemy mecha and fighters in close to the hulls. The capital ships fire and missile barrages deal with further away threats and thin attackers considerably. The capital ship fire will pick off Robotech assault carriers, and Invid clamships forcing enemy forces to abandon them further out. This trades time and firepower for survivability for the attacker but, consuming so much reaction mass can mean any attack by fighter craft is a do or die affair.

I posit, the VF-1 series is alive and well, with many strike squadrons acting as a space superiority fighter. It take the Beta fighter to give the Alpha the speed to get to the enemy but, they have to separate for the Beta to use its LRMs... a disadvantage in the design since it is better to be able to inflict damage on an enemy that cannot hit you back.

I really feel the Beta allows the Alpha to keep up with the Fleet until absolutely necessary for them to separate and begin dogfighting enemy mecha.

Step 1) HG has to stop letting other companies supply their reference material and write their own.

Step 2) Create stats that reflect multiple decades of technological advancement and the use of protoculture as the super power source worth fighting galaxy spanning wars it is.

Done.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

jedi078 wrote:1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’. [...]

But the VF-1 is a much higher-performance fighter overall, so it makes sense for it to have the additional high performance bonuses... though they also come with significant penalties once the plane is damaged. An Alpha may not have the bonuses (which it shouldn't, since it's much lower performance than a VF-1) but it doesn't suffer the penalties either. IMO, that much is a wash, since it won't be suffering any 50% penalties to all its maneuvering rolls if it takes a fair amount of damage in a scrap.

Sorry but you don't replace your top of the line aircraft with a lesser aircraft. Furthermore if the very first veritech had the fly by wire system the rest should have it too. Its just common sense.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

jedi078 wrote:2) Include the under intake MRM’s you see in the various model kits, and no I don’t mean to call these ‘field modifications’ as some have because we see them in the model kits. These capabilities are obviously from some sort of OSM material (model sheet, blue prints etc) or else they would not have shown up in the model kit in the first place.

Actually, those "first strike missiles" are not part of the series animation model sheets. As far as I'm aware, it was something that was created specifically for the transforming toys to make them more "action-figureous".

Can you post substantial proof?

I think they'd be problematic because of the range of motion of the mecha's hips and the lack of clearance for exhaust in battloid mode.

There's isn't any 'clearance' for the internally mounted missiles so I don't see why there HAS to be any for the under-intake MRM's. Besides the MRM's could be designed to 'drop and launch' as opposed to launch off the missile rail.

jedi078 wrote:3) Include the shoulder SRM pods from the model kits as well. Now. I don’t even need to use the same justification as the under intake MRM’s.

Pod, singular, really... the pod was created as an alternate gun pod mounting method during the design of the OSM's Legioss armo-fighter. It's totally OSM, and honestly is easy enough to add to the game. It sits in that little valley between the two shoulder launchers in fighter mode, and holds eight of the same missiles that the other launchers do. Not a bad little upgrade, IMO. It attaches to one of the shoulders during transformation, and otherwise stays out of the way.

My point is that you can see the pod in the rpg book but yet there are no stats. I also say pods because I don't see why a second pod can't be mounted that faces to the rear in jet mode.

jedi078 wrote:4) Each wing should have a single hard point. Yes the wing hard points preclude transformation, but this will allow the mecha to carry LRMs. The Logan has wing hard points, so why not the Alpha? In fact the Alpha is the only veritech in the RPG that does not have hard points on the wings.

Well, to be fair, none of the VFs after the VF-1, and indeed all of the non-variable fighters are unable to carry long-range missiles. The same goes for the non-variable fighters. Only the larger Macross Saga mecha have the ability to take LRMs (the VF-1, the F203, S-12, and so on). This may simply be because LRMs in RT are fairly sizable missiles even by modern standards, and the craft that came after the VF-1 aren't working with engines nearly as powerful, and their airframes are much smaller with less wing area.

Sorry but per the RPG both the Logan and Ajacs can mount ordnance on their wings. Therefore I see no reason why the Alpha can't. Furthermore a big mistake was made by not equipping the F-4 Phantom with a internal cannon. For the designers to not allow the Alpha to carry under wing ordinance severely limits it's operational capabilities.

ArmySGT. wrote:I really feel the Beta allows the Alpha to keep up with the Fleet until absolutely necessary for them to separate and begin dogfighting enemy mecha.

But there was no Beta for a long time.....

Jefffar wrote:Step 1) HG has to stop letting other companies supply their reference material and write their own.

Step 2) Create stats that reflect multiple decades of technological advancement and the use of protoculture as the super power source worth fighting galaxy spanning wars it is.

Done.

I agree to both points.

jedi078 wrote:1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’.

The Alpha and Beta are the only Flying veritechs in the new game that don't have access to the special-bonuses.
The shadow system is the only thing that is similar to the Fly-by-wire... even thou it neglects the Auto-dodge...

I give the Alpha the Ability to Carry Re-loads like it had in 1st edition.

Jefffar wrote:Step 1) HG has to stop letting other companies supply their reference material and write their own.

Step 2) Create stats that reflect multiple decades of technological advancement and the use of protoculture as the super power source worth fighting galaxy spanning wars it is.

Done.

#2 is the best reason I've seen

jedi078 wrote:Sorry but you don't replace your top of the line aircraft with a lesser aircraft. [...]

Well, yes... but the problem is that, by any objective measure, that's exactly what happened.

Even though it runs contrary to common sense, the UEEF adopted a replacement for the VF-1 that was nowhere near as fast, agile, or versatile as the original fighter it was intended to replace according to the canon stats. The RPG is merely reflecting what is already evident from the canon material. It's not like somebody at Palladium sat down and decided "I really hate that Alpha fighter, let's NERF the hell out of it". The use of protoculture is the one thing that the official Harmony Gold line points to for the Alpha's advantage over its predecessor, but that's more a liability starting with the Invid invasion.

Of course, on occasion screw-ups like this have happened in the real world as well... like the F-4 Phantom, which was woefully under-capable because the Navy decided that dogfighting was going out of style.

jedi078 wrote:Furthermore if the very first veritech had the fly by wire system the rest should have it too. Its just common sense. [...]

Unless it's been replaced by something more advanced that doesn't suffer the stability problems of the original system. Remember, the Alpha doesn't get the bonuses of that unstable system, but it also doesn't get the substantial penalties. What you have is a system that's more reliable in combat because it not prone to failure if its VF takes a pounding.

jedi078 wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Actually, those "first strike missiles" are not part of the series animation model sheets. As far as I'm aware, it was something that was created specifically for the transforming toys to make them more "action-figureous".

Can you post substantial proof?

I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to provide substantial proof of something's absence without scanning literally every page of every MOSPEADA article or art book. Sufficed to say, it's not in the official MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works book, or any of the magazine articles I have for the series. The only format that I have seen the "first strike missiles" in is an unsourced third-hand scan with no episode code or studio seal on it. The only data on the art was the title and a date that was in the middle of the show's run. It was not sourced by the person who supplied the scan either.

The missiles do not appear in the animation, and are not listed among the unused materials in the Imai Files, or aforementioned art book either. The only place these missiles have ever appeared is on the toys, and only then on the more modern ones (ref. MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works toy gallery, pg17-18), though their number and size is not consistent from toy to toy either. They're not present at all on the toys from the 80s, and first appeared on ones from the 2000s, though the earlier ones had just two missiles a side, and the ones released for the show's anniversary had three.

jedi078 wrote:There's isn't any 'clearance' for the internally mounted missiles so I don't see why there HAS to be any for the under-intake MRM's. Besides the MRM's could be designed to 'drop and launch' as opposed to launch off the missile rail.

The Legioss' internal missiles appear to have enough exhaust clearance for their comparatively small nozzles in the surface-mount launchers. The kind of clearance I'm talking about isn't just rearward, though there'd be a danger of exhaust blasting back to damage the missile, it's vertical. The missiles are less than one missile diameter away from the top of the mecha's hip joint in armo-soldier mode. They're no room for them to drop.

jedi078 wrote:My point is that you can see the pod in the rpg book but yet there are no stats. I also say pods because I don't see why a second pod can't be mounted that faces to the rear in jet mode.

True 'nuff, but since they're the same missiles in more or less the same configuration as the shoulder launchers, adding 'em is easy as pie. The fun bit is that the mount also doubles as a gunpod storage position (ref. M:CaW pg47 right column), so the regular gun pod can mount in a fashion similar to the Dark Legioss/Shadow Fighter. In terms of a second, rear-facing mount, I'm not sure. The only art for it doesn't show a rear view of the pod, and the toys make it rather large, so there doesn't look like there's enough room for a second, rear-facing one. I suppose if you wanted to forgo the gun pod mounting station, you could enlarge the single pod into a symmetrical design with eight forward and eight rear-facing missiles that would attach to just one shoulder.

jedi078 wrote:Sorry but per the RPG both the Logan and Ajacs can mount ordnance on their wings. Therefore I see no reason why the Alpha can't. [...]

Er... please go back and review the books. The Logan is more or less a lifting body type, per its design in This is Animation 10: Southern Cross, and its hardpoint pair isn't located on the wings. The missile stations are located on the underside of the fuselage, on the part that becomes the forearm, below and slightly in from that fighter's wing root. The RPG (Manga Ed., pg83) says that the Logan can only take short- or medium-range missiles, and the same goes for the AJAX (pg89). A Logan's entire fuselage is wing surface (technically), so it has more lift to play with. The AJAX only seems to be able to haul 'em because it can operate as a helicopter, and in so doing compensate for the lift issue, since its fighter mode is described as being principally for space. The Alpha's a conventional delta-wing with an aerodynamic profile that's beyond terrible. Its wing area is fairly small, but it doesn't have the benefit of a helicopter rotor or lifting body configuration to compensate. So, naturally, its ordinance carrying capability should be less than its more advantaged cousins.

Per RAW, neither the Logan nor the AJAX... nor even the Beta fighter... are able to mount LRMs. Only the mecha I listed from the Macross Saga book can carry those, and that's probably because they're so much bigger and lighter.

EDIT: Edited for emphasis... at no point have I said that those mecha can't carry missiles period, your specific point of inquiry was LONG-RANGE missiles, which none of the post Macross Saga mecha can take, per RAW.

jedi078 wrote:Furthermore a big mistake was made by not equipping the F-4 Phantom with a internal cannon. For the designers to not allow the Alpha to carry under wing ordinance severely limits it's operational capabilities.

Bingo... and the designers of the F-4 sought to remedy that. Initially, they fitted the F-4 with an external gun pod, and later went to an internal gun system. Likewise, the UEEF did acknowledge and attempt to address the design issues with the Alpha fighter. The Beta was developed to supplement its fuel for space operations, for its low flight ceiling and inability to reach orbit under its own power, and to address its crippling overspecialization by offering more diverse armaments. The -Z variant was their attempt to fix its less than stellar atmospheric performance, though that didn't seem to take the way the Beta did, while the -X variant tried to address the Invid's ability to track its power plant, and the Super Pack attempted to further address the same woes as the Beta.

The Alpha basically got screwed by circumstance more than anything.

Jefffar wrote:Step 1) HG has to stop letting other companies supply their reference material and write their own. [...]

Harmony Gold wants to ensure that their stats are consistent with what's in the animation, and the easiest way to do that is to use the materials that were created to produce said animation. There's no getting around the disparity in performance between the three unrelated shows used to make Robotech, and trying to bandaid that problem with stats that clearly don't fit the animation won't solve anything.

It's unlikely Harmony Gold will ever back away from its use of the OSM, particularly since they want Robotech to be taken seriously as a SF/mecha anime. Unless they throw away the original series entirely and start from scratch, that's not gonna change.

EDIT: And as a side note, the decision to use OSM stats was Harmony Gold's... through the work of the uRRG writers who contributed to the Infopedia. It's not other companies supplying this material, it's Harmony Gold actively seeking it out and adopting it.

Jefffar wrote:Step 2) Create stats that reflect multiple decades of technological advancement and the use of protoculture as the super power source worth fighting galaxy spanning wars it is.

Mechanical designers these guys ain't... they try damn hard, but they'd need someone the likes of Macross's Masahiro Chiba to straighten this stuff out, and even then there are some parts of it that are beyond fixing without either invalidating the entire reason for a fighter's existence or contradicting the animation so badly that everyone will immediately call BS.

Let's see...

1. Long since done. I ignore the penalties since the Alpha is more advanced and rugged.

2. Long since done.

3. Long since done. They look like two 4 pods to me so that they can stay there after the Alpha Transforms, one on the back of each shoulder.

4. I didn't do that because it's the Beta's job to carry the heavy weapons, it's got the wing hard points and the ordanance bay.

5. Hadn't thought of that, but it's an option. I went with the extra reloads like Colonel Wolfe suggests.

6. I've gone with Alpha's having far better performance in space where their poor aerodynamics don't hinder them.

7. I've also stepped up the damage die for the EU-13/14 bursts to 6 and added the +1 addional bonus from the GU-11, after all this should be a more advanced gun pod. Also, since it's a laser weapon it shouldn't have any recoil to throw off the aim so I'm considering removing the negative burst modifier. Since there are simillar weapons that do simillar damage as single shot weapons I don't think it will throw off game balance.

-POUNCER

Jedi078 wrote:1) Give the Alpha (and all other flying veritechs for that matter) the same fly by wire system the VF-1 has. It is incredulously stupid for the other veritechs to not have the fly by wire system. Shame on Palladium for short changing the Alpha and other veritechs just to make the VF-1 ‘cool’.

1st, the Logan and the AGAC already receive special bonuses comparable to the VF-1's FbW system, they are not labeled as such, but I would treat them the same.

Still given the highly variable nature of the mecha, a fly-by-wire system is likely the only way those mecha can operate. So the Alpha and Beta definitely should have it (and realistically all the nt-Battloids have it or something akin to it).

Jedio078 wrote:2) Include the under intake MRM’s you see in the various model kits, and no I don’t mean to call these ‘field modifications’ as some have because we see them in the model kits. These capabilities are obviously from some sort of OSM material (model sheet, blue prints etc) or else they would not have shown up in the model kit in the first place

They may actually already be interpreted to be in the footage already. Ep65 "Curtain Call", shows under carriage launch of missiles with fins from the fighter mode Alpha. Those finned missiles are inconsistent with the normal MM-60 launchers, and too wide spread to be mini's. And I am using a Legacy DVD, and they are noticeable there even before doing frame freeze.

Jedi078 wrote:4) Each wing should have a single hard point. Yes the wing hard points preclude transformation, but this will allow the mecha to carry LRMs. The Logan has wing hard points, so why not the Alpha? In fact the Alpha is the only veritech in the RPG that does not have hard points on the wings.

I see no reason to limit the mecha to a single hard point per wing as you can probably get two. Not to mention using empty gunpod stations. I would probably see the creation of customized pods for #3 to hold additional MRMs, Mini's or other enhancements.

I would also add #6 (sine #5 is used): use of FAST-Pack systems (treat the SSF-A ones as a new/latest version) and allow the connection for use as additional hardpoints (essentially a hardpoint w/FAST-Pack interface).

I have to agree with Seto though about the LRM capacity in principle, though it has nothing to do with size. The simple fact is that military craft are cleared for use of ordnance, and not all platforms are cleared to use all available weapons. Case in Point, how many fighters where actually cleared to use the Phoenix AA missile when it was in service with the US military out of how many operational types during that period?

The lack of LRM use may indicate that the capacity was under-utilized by TMS units, and subsequently dropped from requirements IMHO.

Seto wrote:But the VF-1 is a much higher-performance fighter overall, so it makes sense for it to have the additional high performance bonuses... though they also come with significant penalties once the plane is damaged. An Alpha may not have the bonuses (which it shouldn't, since it's much lower performance than a VF-1) but it doesn't suffer the penalties either. IMO, that much is a wash, since it won't be suffering any 50% penalties to all its maneuvering rolls if it takes a fair amount of damage in a scrap.

The higher-performance should not be a factor if the system is present or not (given the designs will have unique handling aspects I can see different bonuses), in fact that is likely the only way to control a variable form mecha in any mode. To make a manual control system operate under those conditions would be very complex.

Now they may have graduated upto something that essentially is fbw (fly-by-light as example) post VF-1 that is superior, but the mecha still need a fly-by-wire system (or something akin to it) to operate, the Veritech's modular design requires it.

Seto wrote:I think they opted to stick to the OSM for the subject of the Alpha's armaments because the Alpha's design isn't very conducive to trying to stick ordinance on the wings or the underside of the intakes, on account of how the plane transforms and its low ground clearance.

And yet we have the SSF-A's FAST-PACK system, showing that there is clearance and places to mount hardware externally and not interfere with transformation.

The under-intake stations can be shown to have sufficient ground clearance ("Frostbite", "Curtain Call", "Metamorphosis"), plus numerous shots show that the nacelles are not in-line with the central "spine", but raised above it giving additional clearance.

Clearance should not be an issue for the intake launchers either, the VF-1's standard MRMs fit smoothly under the wing, size wise that is the same length (front-back) as the Alpha's Intake. Not to mention they may have a specially designed MRM missile(s) for their exclusive use or ones that take advantages in advancements to have a reduction in size while keeping the same lethality that can fit.

The footage in "Curtain C"ll would suggest that the missiles when mounted have a blast-plate to protect the airframe.

I think the Alpha isn't half bad, really. I think it's just purposed as a more close range engagement platform. It has higher armor and a nominally higher amount of close range missiles than previous models. It's designed to do what it does, while the other Veritechs do what they do.

Though improvements would be some kind of extrenal FAST Pack, though I don't know what the scoop is on that officially. However, a recharging gun pod is 100% in order, and yes, way faster recharge than ASC weapons. I also think they should have eliminated the Alpha's separate engines for space/atmosphere and have it run off PC at all times and kept its endurance on the higher side.

I disagree with granting it the same modifiers as the VF-1 though, and not because I'm a fanboy or something, but because the Alpha just isn't as maneuverable. It's got less wing surface, slower speed and comparatively crappy aerodynamics (also i believe, it's been said that in the OSM specs it isn't equipped with vernier thrusters, which doesn't help it in space either).

Seto Kaiba wrote:Actually, those "first strike missiles" are not part of the series animation model sheets. As far as I'm aware, it was something that was created specifically for the transforming toys to make them more "action-figureous". They're not even so much as mentioned in the MOSPEADA OSM, though they do appear in the Complete Art Works book's toy gallery.

Lineart is dated during the production of the series (9/26/83) shows them. They also appear in the animation in Curtain Call.

I think they'd be problematic because of the range of motion of the mecha's hips and the lack of clearance for exhaust in battloid mode.

Should be quite fine to fire in all modes since the back blast from the other missiles hardly seems to affect whatever the materials it is the Alpha is made from. Besides, the lineart shows them mounted in Battloid too and the vehicle has enough ground clearance in Fighter to mount them as well according to the lineart.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Lineart is dated during the production of the series (9/26/83) shows them. [...]

I know we've been over this before in other threads, but it's worth repeating for this one. The line art in question lacks a designer signature, production/episode code, and other key indicators to suggest that it was ever approved for use in the series animation. In point of fact, the MOSPEADA OSM is very detailed when it comes to materials made for use in a single episode, and repeatedly makes a point of listing weapons and capabilities even when they didn't end up getting put into the show. Curiously enough, the "first strike missiles" are conspicuous only by their absence from the official spec for the Legioss armo-fighter, from its animation model sheets, and from the animation sheets for one-shot material for episode five, "Live Inn Plunder Operation". It's as if they don't exist... which, all indications are, they don't.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:They also appear in the animation in Curtain Call.

The production evidence doesn't support that assertion, I'm afraid... and the missiles in the animation don't appear to be large enough to be the first-strike missiles, and their proportions are off. I would have to contact the creators to be 100% certain, but right now the evidence only points to one conclusion... off-model animation of the internal micro-missiles.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Besides, the lineart shows them mounted in Battloid too and the vehicle has enough ground clearance in Fighter to mount them as well according to the lineart.

The line art shows them practically touching the top of the hip joint, which would be a fairly severe issue... one amusingly indicated on the toys as well. What worries me more is the line art's limited torso traverse capability, which would put the missiles nosecone first into the body's core block.

ShadowLogan wrote:They may actually already be interpreted to be in the footage already. Ep65 "Curtain Call", shows under carriage launch of missiles with fins from the fighter mode Alpha. Those finned missiles are inconsistent with the normal MM-60 launchers, and too wide spread to be mini's. [...]

See the above, regarding the non-existence of the first strike missiles in the animation.

ShadowLogan wrote:I see no reason to limit the mecha to a single hard point per wing as you can probably get two. [...]

But at considerable expense to performance... the Legioss/Alpha almost certainly doesn't have wing hardpoints because its design can't spare the drag and loss of lift that entails. Its aerodynamics are very poor, and can't afford to be compromised much. The safest approach for mounting one would actually be to stick the pylon on the dorsal wing surface, but that's a whole other kettle of fish and poses its own risks and problems.

ShadowLogan wrote:The lack of LRM use may indicate that the capacity was under-utilized by TMS units, and subsequently dropped from requirements IMHO.

Doubtful, at best... since the large, anti-ship warheads that were so valuable when the chips were down were only usable via long-range missiles. The substantial decrease in size coupled with the steady decline of aerodynamics seems to be the most probable culprit. The smaller the aircraft, the larger the burden large ordinance places upon it, and the size reduction between Generations 1 and 2 is pretty severe.

ShadowLogan wrote:The higher-performance should not be a factor if the system is present or not (given the designs will have unique handling aspects I can see different bonuses), in fact that is likely the only way to control a variable form mecha in any mode. To make a manual control system operate under those conditions would be very complex. [...]

The Alpha is much less agile than the Macross and Masters Saga mecha though, and the lack of bonuses may simply be a reflection of that decreased performance preventing a more stable version of the same system from providing bonuses like the earlier mecha got.

ShadowLogan wrote:And yet we have the SSF-A's FAST-PACK system, showing that there is clearance and places to mount hardware externally and not interfere with transformation.

True, but the FAST packs are very limited in nature and positioned solely on the few specific locations where collisions in transformation are profoundly unlikely. Many of them are not suitable for this application, since they either block existing missile launchers or position themselves in somewhat unsuitable places for missile racks.

ShadowLogan wrote:Clearance should not be an issue for the intake launchers either, the VF-1's standard MRMs fit smoothly under the wing, size wise that is the same length (front-back) as the Alpha's Intake. [...]

's actually a little bigger on the VF-1, but the problem is that of vertical clearance in battloid mode (the missiles practically touch the top of the hip) and obstruction of the torso's limited traverse ability. The VF-1 has the good luck to have wings that are fairly large for a VF (in RT), leaving them enough room to support pylons without difficulty or obstruction, and has its transformation set up to keep the missiles unobstructed in all modes.

I've been thinking that maybe a good reason for why the Alpha was adopted by the UEEF despite being a less capable fighter is that it was meant to be a ground support unit that got used as a superiority fighter because a) it's cheaper (well maybe) and b) the Invid units (those under the Regent at any rate) sucked.

so like why the F-16A replaced the F-4E.. those early block Falcons were generally inferior in speed, firepower, range, and given the flaws with the early fly by wire, general agility. (the F-4E wasn't hyper agile. but the early F-16's weren't either due to the limits of their tech. the main advantage the F-16A had was a tighter turning radius)
but the F-16 replaced most of the F-4's because the F-15A (what was supposed to replace it) had no air to ground at all, while the F-16A did.. and the F-16A was a lot cheaper than either the late model F-4's or the F-15. but the F-4E was faster, longer ranged, could carry far more munitions, and actually had better sensors too. but it was near the end of its lifespan in terms of improvements that could have been fitted without a major redesign. (though advances in avionics tech did manage to let some nations eak out a few extra decades with their Phantoms..)

it took a lot of incremental upgrades to turn the F-16 into the hyper agile, hyper capable plane we have now.

or how the F/A-18 replaced the F-4S.. same basic story, only it was a direct replacement, instead of one picked to fill in for a unit that couldn't be built in large enough numbers.

camk4evr wrote:I've been thinking that maybe a good reason for why the Alpha was adopted by the UEEF despite being a less capable fighter is that it was meant to be a ground support unit [...]

Therein lies one of the biggest reasons behind the Alpha's depiction is kind of an indifferent mecha... it wasn't designed to be a high-performance fighter in the original show.

Part of the problem is that the Robotech series is made from three completely unrelated shows, in which humanity is fighting its first alien war with its first generation of transforming fighters. So, in order to make it work as a whole, humanity's technological development isn't cumulative in Robotech. Instead of building upon its previous successes, humanity is basically reinventing the wheel every time they design a new mecha, which means there's very little evident growth or advancement. The official stats tried to enforce some small measure of internal consistency via canonizing a few select animation errors and reassigning (on paper) some specific unit roles, but otherwise it's just sort of ignored until you get a side by side comparison like the RPG. The Alpha in particular is a problem, since, unlike the Logan or AGACs, it wasn't even originally meant to be in the spotlight. It was "promoted from extra", to cash in on the success of Macross's toy line during the show's development, and was never supposed to be as prominent as it ended up being.

The original mecha that became Robotech's Alpha, the AFC-01 Legioss armo-fighter, was pretty much a dedicated ground attack plane. It's operating profile is somewhere between an attack helicopter and the old AV-8 Harrier... a light VTOL plane, carrying light, short-ranged ordinance and intended to support infantry or light armor groups with those and its gun. It could operate as a fighter in a pinch, but its aircraft mode was really more a means to the end that is delivering its robot mode to the battlefield ASAP. It was, in all respects, a pretty decent replacement for the fighter it replaced... the AF-03 Convert [RT: Conbat], since that was pretty much a dedicated attack plane too. The AB-01 TLEAD's not all that different, its actual role is basically that of an A-10 Thunderbolt, with three rotary cannons (even in the same caliber as the A-10's) and a variety of light bombs and missiles for light anti-armor work.

This is, ultimately, true for pretty much all the post-Macross designs in Robotech's sagas. The VF-1 Valkyrie was a true multi-role fighter jet, but the TASC-01-SCF Logan, TASC-02-SCF Auroran [AGACs], AFC-01 Legioss [Alpha], and AB-01 TLEAD [Beta] were all attack craft designed for close air support roles. Naturally a dedicated attack plane isn't going to shine as a fighter compared to an actual fighter, which is why they come across as kind of rubbish after being redesignated to strike fighters by Robotech's writers.

camk4evr wrote:[...] that got used as a superiority fighter because a) it's cheaper (well maybe) and b) the Invid units (those under the Regent at any rate) sucked.

Well, perhaps... we ARE told in the official material that the Alpha won out over the YF-4 because the YF-4's expensive to build and maintain. (The real reason being, obviously, that the VF-4 was not present in any of the other shows, and they couldn't use it in new animation.)

Seto wrote:See the above, regarding the non-existence of the first strike missiles in the animation.

I said "interpreted" to appear in the animation. One can always play the AE error, but then we have possible AEs being made canon (VF-1 nose lasers, VF-1R) so it is possible it is an AE for the OSM, but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way in RT.

Seto wrote:But at considerable expense to performance... the Legioss/Alpha almost certainly doesn't have wing hardpoints because its design can't spare the drag and loss of lift that entails. Its aerodynamics are very poor, and can't afford to be compromised much. The safest approach for mounting one would actually be to stick the pylon on the dorsal wing surface, but that's a whole other kettle of fish and poses its own risks and problems.

Even the VF-1 will take a hit at performance from all external missiles it carries in an atmosphere. Such hardpoint carrying mecha could be limited to the VFA-6Z or block versions with aerodynamic alterations or improved engines to mitigate the drag issue, or used primarily for space (where drag is a non-issue, though the mass will remain).

Steps can also be taken to minimize the negative factors, possibly even neutralizing them. I could see putting engines as part of the pylons (or put everything into pod on the station) to increase thrust to counter the negative factors. And the Cyclone shows they can make powerful thrusters small enough.

Seto wrote:Doubtful, at best... since the large, anti-ship warheads that were so valuable when the chips were down were only usable via long-range missiles. The substantial decrease in size coupled with the steady decline of aerodynamics seems to be the most probable culprit. The smaller the aircraft, the larger the burden large ordinance places upon it, and the size reduction between Generations 1 and 2 is pretty severe.

Very possible though. Just how often was the Valk. in TMS actually called upon to use that LRM capacity? Twice IINM, so it is possible the requirement would be dropped in later designs given the bulk of use was elsewhere.

That the ASC/UEEF mecha saw a reduction in size is noted, but it also allows for missiles to see a similar reduction in size without a loss in performance. If the electronics can be miniaturized for the mecha, that means it could spin off to missiles, which means their electronics alone can shrink (effecting the size and propulsion requirements).

Seto wrote:The Alpha is much less agile than the Macross and Masters Saga mecha though, and the lack of bonuses may simply be a reflection of that decreased performance preventing a more stable version of the same system from providing bonuses like the earlier mecha got.

I'm not going to get into a discussion on what the bonuses should look like, but the mecha in question require them to operate w/o a doubt.

As for the agility, that is highly debatable.

Seto wrote:True, but the FAST packs are very limited in nature and positioned solely on the few specific locations where collisions in transformation are profoundly unlikely. Many of them are not suitable for this application, since they either block existing missile launchers or position themselves in somewhat unsuitable places for missile racks.

The Alpha has those pesky upper launchers in fighter mode that would need to be serviced, so servicing the 4 dorsal stations is not going to be an issue as they already have to deal with it in the base line unit.

Clearance does not appear to be an issue either since the SSF-As where designed that way (and it looks like in the OVA the MM-60 was used with them in place in Battloid and Guardian mode). Still they can be used for first-strike options clearing the stations so that one can move on to regular MM-60 config. without impediment.

Seto wrote:'s actually a little bigger on the VF-1, but the problem is that of vertical clearance in battloid mode (the missiles practically touch the top of the hip) and obstruction of the torso's limited traverse ability. The VF-1 has the good luck to have wings that are fairly large for a VF (in RT), leaving them enough room to support pylons without difficulty or obstruction, and has its transformation set up to keep the missiles unobstructed in all modes.

The Battloid mode clearance may simply result in the stations only being used for certain modes, we can point to two Veritech Fighters that have such restrictions already (the Beta twice over). So there is precedent for mode limiting external stations without it being a cop-out answer.

The missile aren't actually touching the hips are they? That would suggest there is room for the legs to maneuver. And it would not rule out smaller diameter missiles (possibly with reduced damage for greater range) to be used allowing greater clearance.

ShadowLogan wrote:I said "interpreted" to appear in the animation. [...]

It's not really "interpretation" when the interpretation is objectively incorrect though... and while it's true that Robotech has canonized a select few animation errors, this ain't one.

ShadowLogan wrote:Even the VF-1 will take a hit at performance from all external missiles it carries in an atmosphere.

True, but the VF-1 has enough brute force and aerodynamics on its side to make it workable... the Beta has less capacity in that regard, since its wing surface is smaller and its aerodynamics are worse, so it's basically getting by on pure thrust alone. The Alpha really can't rely on any of those three categories, since it has a comparatively weak set of engines, aerodynamics almost as poor as the Beta's, and very little wing surface.

ShadowLogan wrote:Such hardpoint carrying mecha could be limited to the VFA-6Z or block versions with aerodynamic alterations or improved engines to mitigate the drag issue, or used primarily for space (where drag is a non-issue, though the mass will remain).

Well, per official sources, the VF/A-6Z doesn't have any hard points and its aerodynamics didn't change in its optimization for atmosphere (though I know the RPG erroneously claims otherwise). For space use, I wouldn't rule it out, but no version of the Alpha is what you'd call aerodynamically sound. The added mass would also degrade the Alpha's effective range and acceleration in space, but probably not by as much as it would have hindered the fighter in atmosphere.

ShadowLogan wrote:Steps can also be taken to minimize the negative factors, possibly even neutralizing them.

"Throw it out and get a fighter that isn't a flying brick" would be pretty much your go-to option there... there isn't really much room to fix what's broken, aerodynamically.

ShadowLogan wrote:Very possible though. Just how often was the Valk. in TMS actually called upon to use that LRM capacity? Twice IINM, so it is possible the requirement would be dropped in later designs given the bulk of use was elsewhere.

Just because it was used relatively few times in the series proper doesn't mean that it isn't important... and, honestly, in terms of the actual impact of their usage, the LRMs justify the heck out of their existence. You can't tell me the UEEF wouldn't have had an easier time against the Invid in space if they had blasted 'em to atoms at a distance like a VF-1 could have.

ShadowLogan wrote:That the ASC/UEEF mecha saw a reduction in size is noted, but it also allows for missiles to see a similar reduction in size without a loss in performance.

Oh, it opens the door for it to be possible... the problem is we absolutely don't see any such improvement. An Alpha's missiles barely perform better than a man-portable rocket.

ShadowLogan wrote:Clearance does not appear to be an issue either since the SSF-As where designed that way (and it looks like in the OVA the MM-60 was used with them in place in Battloid and Guardian mode). [...]

Looking at it, I'm not so sure... they mostly use the shoulder launchers.

ShadowLogan wrote:The missile aren't actually touching the hips are they? That would suggest there is room for the legs to maneuver. And it would not rule out smaller diameter missiles (possibly with reduced damage for greater range) to be used allowing greater clearance.

They're at most 5cm from touching the hips, based on the art... very probably less. Even just standing on uneven ground might be enough to cause those missiles to be crushed.

Seto wrote:It's not really "interpretation" when the interpretation is objectively incorrect though... and while it's true that Robotech has canonized a select few animation errors, this ain't one.

Considering the missiles are shown to be different than the standard missiles fired from the MM-60, it is reasonable to see them as firing from a different station objectively. That they are not canonized doesn't change that objectively they are different missiles than the standard ones fired from the MM-60, nor does it change that HG can canonize them.

Seto wrote:Throw it out and get a fighter that isn't a flying brick" would be pretty much your go-to option there... there isn't really much room to fix what's broken, aerodynamically.

They do have room for fixes and such to improve the platform (aside from specialized missiles exclusive to the platform):
-conformal fast-pack like structures. The F-15E and F-16 both have conformal fuel tanks, and the F-15SE (if it gets built) is supposed to also modify it's tanks for internal weapons carriage.
-they can enlarge the wing/tail surfaces, and even redesign the wings. Craft have received such alterations in the past, so I do not see why the Alpha (or any Veritech) could not.
-they can install more powerful engines, again this isn't unusual. Even the -6Z shows that the mecha can get new more powreful engines.

Seto wrote:Just because it was used relatively few times in the series proper doesn't mean that it isn't important... and, honestly, in terms of the actual impact of their usage, the LRMs justify the heck out of their existence.

But it does show that if the item isn't being used, priority for the capability may be dropped in evaluations from a "must have" to a "would be nice" feature.

Seto wrote:Oh, it opens the door for it to be possible... the problem is we absolutely don't see any such improvement. An Alpha's missiles barely perform better than a man-portable rocket.

By the RPG, the Alpha's missiles are SRM and can go out to upto 5miles, the best man-portable rocket only gets 1mile. That's x5 better than a man-portable rocket, and clearly better (does more damage now than 1E days).

Seto wrote:Looking at it, I'm not so sure... they mostly use the shoulder launchers.

The leg launchers are shown in close up to be firing on a Battloid (only ones with a "V" formation, others are straight row or rows), Marcus in Gaurdian mode appears to let loose from multiple locations (including the legs).

Seto wrote:They're at most 5cm from touching the hips, based on the art... very probably less. Even just standing on uneven ground might be enough to cause those missiles to be crushed.

Depends on how much the hips are designed to flex upward though in those socket. And as I said it doesn't rule out the use of smaller diameter missiles to use in Medium Range missiles or mode limitations. As the RT right-ups show, missiles come in a variety of sizes, even when they are in the same range classification (which isn't to dissimilar to reality). All you've shown is a maximum size for the missile on the station, not prevent it from being used.

There reason the VF-1 didn't always use LRM's in the series is that up until the later episodes, the Zentraid Ships didn't engage the SDF-1 at a range the Valkyries could hit them in return, even with LRM's. They were outfitted with lighter, shorter range missiles because they were fighting Regults.

During the battle against the grand fleet, they knew they would engaging Zentradi ships at close range, so they equipped the VF-1's with their anti-ship warheads. Anti-Ship Warheads are one of those, "Better to be equippable and not need, then need and not be able to equip."

jedi078 wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:I really feel the Beta allows the Alpha to keep up with the Fleet until absolutely necessary for them to separate and begin dogfighting enemy mecha.

But there was no Beta for a long time.....

Which leads to the necessity of holding your screening force of fighters onboard until the last possible moment.

This is a valid combat tactic and one employed today and in past conflicts. If you launch your fighters early you have to slow down your fleet ships, and your fighters are consuming fuel just maintaining position. This tactic works because your fleet can continue opening distance between themselves and the enemy carriers. The Enemy craft can pursue however they are using their "engagement" fuel stocks. Yours will launch fully loaded, with full tanks, and rested pilots. The downside of this tactic is that if you wait too long, your defensive fighters will be launched at such a low rate that they are significantly out numbered at all phases of the engagement.

With Galactica style launch tubes versus Air Carrier catapults this is significantly reduced, depending of course on how many you launch at once.

Lets look at RT....... Launching fighters at all in most engagements would really be unnecessary. There isn't a single fighter that can challenge the secondary propulsion systems top speed of .16 speed of light.

However, if at some decisive point, where defensive fighter screens would be necessary you always make your Fleet speed less than the top speed of the slowest ship. This lets strays catch up. Slowing a Fleet that reach a top speed of .16 the speed of light and cruise somewhat less than that for a fighter with a top speed of Mach 2 doesn't sound like a tactic anyone wants to employ. I know what your saying about now "Intertia!", this matters if your object is going to maintain the same heading. A fighter is going to have to maneuver, thus it is not going to be maintaining the same heading and distance at all times.

Attaching an Alpha to a Beta brings the top speed up to Mach 8, and a cruise of Mach 6 probably. Better, not as awe inspiring as .16 of light.

So it is relatively better, and why even VF-1s should be launched at all times with some form of booster pack for any mission.

It is also why I believe the VF-1s are still in service through the Masters, Next Gen, and Shadow Chronicles periods. They have turned over the defensive role, and Space to Surface escort mission for the purity of a space superiority fighter role.

ShadowLogan wrote:That they are not canonized doesn't change that objectively they are different missiles than the standard ones fired from the MM-60, nor does it change that HG can canonize them.

Neither of your assertions here is valid, the former because an animation error is just that... an error, and the latter due to the fact that wishful thinking doth not a valid argument make.

ShadowLogan wrote:They do have room for fixes and such to improve the platform [...]

Oh, I'm sure they could... but it's more a matter of whether or not they'd actually be viable, or able to correct the problem to a sufficient degree that it's worth the investment of time and resources.

ShadowLogan wrote:-conformal fast-pack like structures. The F-15E and F-16 both have conformal fuel tanks, and the F-15SE (if it gets built) is supposed to also modify it's tanks for internal weapons carriage.

This was done, and it's explicitly stated not to be viable for atmospheric use... which is a big hole in your argument.

ShadowLogan wrote:-they can enlarge the wing/tail surfaces, and even redesign the wings. Craft have received such alterations in the past, so I do not see why the Alpha (or any Veritech) could not.

The way the Alpha platform transforms makes such alterations profoundly unlikely and/or impractical.

ShadowLogan wrote:-they can install more powerful engines, again this isn't unusual. Even the -6Z shows that the mecha can get new more powreful engines.

They tried this too... and it apparently didn't work out, since the latest and greatest main variant uses the same engines as the bog-standard -I variant. The reason it's not workable doesn't seem to have been elaborated upon, but of the hundreds of Alphas we've seen, only two had the -Z type engines... one was a production Zeta model and the other a special custom fighter for the leader of the UEEF's most elite squadron. Clearly the latter case was done as a reference to Macross's long-held tradition of giving officer variants engines with tighter tuning, but it could also be interpreted as the 11% increase in engine power making the Alpha handling more touchy and unstable due to its poor aerodynamics.

ShadowLogan wrote:Depends on how much the hips are designed to flex upward though in those socket. [...]

Going on the official line art, I would have to say there is SIGNIFICANT crush danger there... principally because of how the legs are connected to the torso block.

Alrik Vas wrote:There reason the VF-1 didn't always use LRM's in the series is that up until the later episodes, the Zentraid Ships didn't engage the SDF-1 at a range the Valkyries could hit them in return, even with LRM's. [...]

It's also possible that, in keeping with Gloval's dialogue shortly before they decide upon having Minmei sing, they were just holding the large missiles in reserve for when things really went pear-shaped, since those are the favored delivery platforms for "reflex" warheads.

ArmySGT. wrote:With Galactica style launch tubes versus Air Carrier catapults this is significantly reduced, depending of course on how many you launch at once.

It probably doesn't help that the ships outfitted with those launch tubes seem to be operating with as little as 20% of their fighter complement, based on the animation of the Shadow Chronicles movie.

ArmySGT. wrote:Lets look at RT....... Launching fighters at all in most engagements would really be unnecessary. There isn't a single fighter that can challenge the secondary propulsion systems top speed of .16 speed of light.

True enough, but practically every fight seems to take place at speeds plenty low enough for the fighters to keep up with and even overtake the ships they're being launched from. SOP seems to be for ships to stand off at range and just launch fighters at each other, rather than getting drawn into a capital ship slugging match. It probably also helps that most of the fleet engagements we see are head-on, so the fighters are attacking a target that is either almost stationary or closing on their position anyway.

ArmySGT. wrote:It is also why I believe the VF-1s are still in service through the Masters, Next Gen, and Shadow Chronicles periods. They have turned over the defensive role, and Space to Surface escort mission for the purity of a space superiority fighter role.

This was the case for a very long time... the scenes that were redrawn for Prelude originally showed the UEEF forces defending Tiresia were operating VF-1s and Spartas hover tanks instead of Alphas and Cyclones. That version got the axe during the reboot though, and Harmony Gold replaced them with New Generation mecha as part of their sweeping move to put anything Macross on the proverbial bus for copyright reasons.

Gryphon wrote:Though I do have to wonder Seto, why use DYRL footage to show how effective LRMs are when that isn't canon for Robotech? I was curious why you choose that scene to represent your point mainly?

Honestly, I would've thought the reasoning and relevance would be obvious.

Consult, if you would, pages 68 and 69 of 2nd Edition's Macross Saga sourcebook. In particular, focus your attention upon item #3 in the VF-1 Valkyrie's weapons list. Now look back at the animation I linked to. Does anything there just jump out at you?

We all know that the VF-1 Valkyrie's MLOP in the RPG, OSM-ly known as the UUM-7 micro-missile pod, doesn't actually exist in Robotech. It was included, by accident or design, in the RPG and Infopedia as a result of copying info off Macross fan sites, which don't differentiate between the DYRL and series versions of the VF-1 for armaments for various reasons relating to canon. The LRM in question, known in Macross as the RMS-1 thermonuclear reaction missile, IS present both DYRL and the original Macross series, and thus Robotech as well. Never mind some other screw-ups, like the RPG mistakenly using the DYRL cockpit art instead of the series version... how those missiles there are being used, and the fact that they exist in RT as well, is what's important.

So... what we're looking at here is a group of VF-1 Valkyries, with a weapons configuration that is ABSOLUTELY viable under both the Robotech.com Infopedia's official stats AND the RPG's stats (as written), using weapons that appear in the Robotech series in a fashion absolutely allowed under the RPG's rules, to thin out the waves of enemy forces who rely on swarm tactics before engaging them at close range. These missiles can deal disabling damage to the 2km long line battleships the Zentradi use... they should be more than sufficient to deal with the Invid carriers or wipe out whole swarms of Invid fighter scouts well beyond the range where they pose a threat.

I defy you to tell me using that approach wouldn't have saved thousands of lives across all three of the various Earth Reclamation Forces, compared to their standard tactic of engaging the Invid at practically point-blank ranges in which they can use their superior numbers to their fullest advantage. It demonstrates quite handily that the loss of the LRM carrying capability was not a matter of them not being useful, but rather a matter of some design change that left the smaller, slower, less aerodynamic fighters of the UEEF unable to carry them.

Gryphon wrote:Also, the use of alternative improvements makes a great deal of sense when the outlay of effort is as minimal as the under intake missile rails, wing hardpoints, fast pack connections, and similar efforts. It isn't nearly so serious a change as the conversion from the base fighters to the shadow fighters.

Here's the thing... those seemingly minimal changes run into fundamentally unresolvable problems with the design of the Alpha fighter itself. The Shadow Fighter's changes were principally exterior, cosmetic changes, or the reduction and/or elimination of external hardware. There might've been more changes, but they didn't impact things like transformations or aerodynamics, and they didn't interfere with other aspects of the plane's performance.

Gryphon wrote:The FAST Packs not being viable in atmosphere doesn't slow the VF-1 Super Parts being used, since we haven't seen them being used in atmosphere in Robotech, right?

The point that ShadowLogan's making is that some kind of conformal FAST pack could be used for the fighter to carry additional ordinance in atmospheric service, similar to several options for real-world fighter aircraft. The problem with that is that we're told, full stop, that the fairly minimalist conformal packs on the Super Shadow Fighter loads the airframe right to the design limit, making it unsuitable for atmospheric service... and those are just conformal tanks for verniers and propellant, mainly.

Gryphon wrote:The use of better engine systems may currently be limited, but the the use of the more common, less powerful engines might be industrial based. Perhaps they didn't see a need to retool an entire engine production line at the same time they were trying to refit the entire mecha and starship contingent over to Shadow variants.

Based on the dialogue available, they were building all-new fighters... not retrofitting old ones. Maia's modified -Z type was the exception, not the rule. Incorporating more powerful engines would've been fairly easy if they were building a whole new fleet of fighters from scratch the way the dialogue suggests... yet they didn't, which suggests that there's something that makes the -Z type's 11% more powerful engines an unattractive option.

Gryphon wrote:Post-Haydonite Betrayal there are suddenly reasons to replace the older engines, especially if they are replacing as many loses as we are lead to believe, it might make sense to tweak the design further with better more recently designed systems such as engines, visual targeting systems, improved avionics, and additional weapon system options.

All told, they would be more likely to simply replace the entire fighter, since it's riddled with sabotaged technology and disconnecting those systems apparently entails considerable effort... if it's even possible in practical terms. The most sensible solution would be to pitch the compromised fighters the second you had a viable replacement.

Another thing to consider is that the Alpha was never intended for the long range interceptor role. The Valkyrie seems to actually be the last Veritech Interceptor to make it out of development, with the Alpha, Beta, Ajax and Logan being primarily Attack and Strike craft while Interceptor duties were passed on to conventional aircraft and aerospace fighters.

To me, the biggest reason for this was likely economics. In the pre-apocalypse period, the resources to build a craft that could do it all were there. Look at the bloated costs of modern military procurements and you'll see what I mean. After the apocalypse with resources harder to acquire they went with a cheaper and more limited series of mecha designs and relied upon conventional vehicles to fill out the gaps.

However there still are game stats issues created by adherence to OSM to resolve. The simplistic way would be to create new stats specifically for Robotech that represent the clear evolution of the technology. Pound for pound the later Veritechs should be more resistant to damage, carry better energy based weaponry and have better technologies for basic systems. They wouldn't be as fast or carry the heavy war loads of the Valkyrie, but then again they also don't have to be.

Seto wrote:Neither of your assertions here is valid, the former because an animation error is just that... an error, and the latter due to the fact that wishful thinking doth not a valid argument make.

The mere fact that HG has chosen to canonize animation errors in the past, does show that an AE in general does not always have to be treated as an AE. If someone is looking for justification w/n the series for a modification for their version of the RPG, than an AE can certainly be used to provide support given the HG themselves have used AEs for modifications.

Seto wrote:This was done, and it's explicitly stated not to be viable for atmospheric use... which is a big hole in your argument.

Not quite. Is that true of every possible design that can be generated for a FAST-Pack like system or not? I find it highly doubtful that every design could result in the frame being taken to the limit or has a negative impact in an Earth level atmosphere. The only FAST-Packs we have in the RPG/AoTSC appear to be optimized for space use, not atmospheric use which would limit their viability outside their intended operating environment. If those FAST-Packs are in fact space optimized, the engines will generate less thrust in atmosphere due to their nozzles alone.

Nor do we know why these FAST-packs take the Alpha to the design limits (the pilot is the weakest point in the design in this respect), nor does it mean the Alpha could not be strengthened (if it isn't the pilot).

Seto wrote:The way the Alpha platform transforms makes such alterations profoundly unlikely and/or impractical.

Not really. There are options that would make it practical, such as folding wings (similar to how carrier aircraft can fold their wings, in this case the Alpha wings now fold in two places) or the use of shape-changing memory materials (this is very cutting edge). Something from the SU-17 might also work, combining the Alpha and VF-1 wing transformation sequences, given the SU-17 has a partial swing-wing.

Then there is the addition of Canards. This might require a slightly redesigned nose section so the folded canards/nose section can fit in the existing cavity for Battloid mode operation. Basically these could borrow heavily from the Logan's wing transformation technology.

Seto wrote:They tried this too... and it apparently didn't work out, since the latest and greatest main variant uses the same engines as the bog-standard -I variant.

So after one try they are supposed to go: "it can't be done oh well" or "we've reached the limit" so we need to design an entirely new platform. The F-14 went from total thrust of OVER 40k-lbs to OVER 54k-lbs with completely new engines (that's off the US Navy's fact file online), a 35% increase. The -6Z is only what ~11%, so there is certainly room for more improvement for a given available size cavity, especially if they go with an all new engine.

We really don't know why the -H/I engine was chosen over the -Z engine in the Shadow Fighter. It may have more to do with availability than performance since the -Z is not a common fighter by any indication in 85ep/TSC/PttSC. And if the UEEF wanted as many Shadow Fighters as fast as they can get them, H/I engines are going to offer a much better ready supply of engines than the -Z.

Seto wrote:Going on the official line art, I would have to say there is SIGNIFICANT crush danger there... principally because of how the legs are connected to the torso block.

Which only limits the use of missiles to non-Battloid mode, it doesn't preclude their use for other modes. Such a limitation on the Alpha is not out of the ordinary when you consider how often post-TMS veritechs have it:
-Beta and Logan external hardpoints require them to be empty to transform into a mode that utilizes their arms
-Beta Forearm guns don't fire in Fight/Gaurdian Mode (apparently, rear facing/firing guns could be useful though)
-Beta center gun can't fire when docked or in Battloid mode (or connected)
-Beta can not use the dual MM-20 when docked
-VHT-1 can't fire either the Tri-Cannon or Main Cannon in hovercraft mode
-Logan gunpod can't fire in fighter mode

One option for Battloid mode carriage might exist if the intake pods can be made to rotate to give better clearance (that may only require a few degrees to as much as keeping them in their F/G position).

Gryphon wrote:Whoa, whoa, whoa chief, chill out a second. I wasn’t saying you were wrong, I was specifically asking why you chose the non-canon material.

I know, and I was plenty frosty... indeed, I was enjoying one of those frozen bagged margaritas when I wrote it, so I was frosty AND suffering brain-freeze.

Gryphon wrote:And honestly, you defended your choice admirably. I hadn’t realized the MLOP on a VF-1 was fifteen rounds since they fail to describe it in any real fashion.

It's a result of someone at Palladium or Harmony Gold adopting, without reason, the UUM-7 micro-missile pods from the OSM VF-1 spec, which didn't exist until DYRL rolled in. They were probably adopted because a VF-1 spec for the OSM includes those weapons anyway.

Gryphon wrote:As to the tactical part, well, the original footage doesn’t show what would end up being the Robotech UEEF using such long range weapons, but that hardly matters, newer footage (TSC) could have, and damn well should have shown such a thing. That being said, your current analysis is pretty spot on though. [...]

That's part of the problem with the United Earth Forces 2nd and (imaginary) 3rd Generation designs... they're painfully short-ranged and mostly attack planes oriented around close air support. They're not space fighters by any means. They're not exactly terrible at it, but they're not winning any prizes for survivability.

Gryphon wrote:Seriously, looking in the book and not seeing, anywhere, that the gap between the top of the legs and the bottoms of the intakes is less than half an armored Cyclone Rider tall.

Does this help you visualize the problem any? Look in the upper right corner. Those missiles have a diameter that's listed as 25cm, and they're practically touching the top of the hip.

Gryphon wrote:As to your point, in reference to ShadowLogan’s point about using FAST Packs in atmosphere, Robotech seems to avoid allowing FAST Packs of any sort in atmosphere, at least for the RPG…wait, let me check something…
Right, that’s what I thought. The FAST Packs CAN be used in atmosphere, and even though there is enough additional drag to decrease the mecha’s combat bonuses by 25%, there is no mention of a negative impact on speed, and in fact they point out a 50% increase and the ability to attain orbital velocities…which is asinine really.

Yep... they've got a certain amount of OSM support for that, particularly from Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie. The catch here being that, though the Alpha's FAST packs are smaller, we have AotSC's explicit statements that they push the Alpha's airframe all the way to its design limit, making them unsuitable for use in atmosphere. The Alpha just can't afford the increased drag of those packs in flight, since its dodgy aerodynamics are pushing the limits of safety already.

Gryphon wrote:(Heh, can the Beta AFFORD a -25% hit to its already abysmal agility?! More importantly, are the less impressive FAST Parts of an SSL still going to be +50% to speed!?!?!)

We don't know... they don't contain any actual large booster elements, except the one on the back of the Beta, but that seems too small to produce more than a marginal improvement, and it seems to be off about half the time too.

Gryphon wrote:What dialogue supports the premise that these are all new build fighters and not other conversions that are simply different from Maia’s?

It's in Prelude... the dialogue during Wolf squadron's attack on Edwards' Optera HQ has the pilots referring to their Shadow fighters as new, and complaining that they were only just getting used to them when they got shot down.

Gryphon wrote:Why should her fighter be special both for being a conversion and for being based on a different model when it would make more sense to presume that it was based on a -6Z while everyone else is using -6H or -6I model conversions instead.

Because we're told, in the RPG and AotSC, that she does go in for customization. We're even told who her go-to man for that is... Louie. She's not even the most respected or influential commander (Taylor seems to have had that distinction) and yet she's the only one flying a VF/A-6ZX, while everyone else including her own boss flies the regular Shadow fighter.

Gryphon wrote:(Also, where are all the older model fighters of those types then?)

(Scrapped for parts?)

Gryphon wrote:I do have to question the compromised line of thought though. I had a similar reaction when I realized the full scope of how badly screwed the UEEF was by the Haydonite Betrayal, but in the end, once the stuff the Haydonites built is replaced or designed out of follow on designs, variants of what they have will be perfectly fine and will already be readily producible rather than new gear, for everything from sidearms on up to the two flagship classes.

The question is, CAN it be removed? Shadow technology seems to be pretty thoroughly worked into all of the UEEF's current hardware, damaging the military's trust in those designs. Removing or disabling shadow systems seems to require a considerable investment of time and effort, since the only way they could find to fight them was to borrow a ship that wasn't finished, along with a bunch of half-complete fighters.

Re-re-redesigning the Alpha might be a bridge too far for the UEEF, and they might decide to take a simpler route and go for something the Haydonites haven't had their claws all over.

Jefffar wrote:However there still are game stats issues created by adherence to OSM to resolve. The simplistic way would be to create new stats specifically for Robotech that represent the clear evolution of the technology. Pound for pound the later Veritechs should be more resistant to damage, carry better energy based weaponry and have better technologies for basic systems. They wouldn't be as fast or carry the heavy war loads of the Valkyrie, but then again they also don't have to be.

So... basically what we already have, yes?

Game balance fixes that don't contradict canon (that badly).

ShadowLogan wrote:The mere fact that HG has chosen to canonize animation errors in the past, does show that an AE in general does not always have to be treated as an AE.

But, in this specific case, there has been no move to canonize that. Try again, friend.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not quite. Is that true of every possible design that can be generated for a FAST-Pack like system or not? I find it highly doubtful that every design could result in the frame being taken to the limit or has a negative impact in an Earth level atmosphere.

FAST packs in general have a significant negative effect on performance in RAW... so it's really not surprising.

ShadowLogan wrote:The only FAST-Packs we have in the RPG/AoTSC appear to be optimized for space use, not atmospheric use which would limit their viability outside their intended operating environment. If those FAST-Packs are in fact space optimized, the engines will generate less thrust in atmosphere due to their nozzles alone.

They're conformal and fairly streamlined as FAST packs go... if they're a bridge too far for atmospheric use, I don't think anything will work.

ShadowLogan wrote:Nor do we know why these FAST-packs take the Alpha to the design limits (the pilot is the weakest point in the design in this respect), nor does it mean the Alpha could not be strengthened (if it isn't the pilot).

They specifically say that it's pushing the actual aircraft itself to the limit, not its pilot...

ShadowLogan wrote:So after one try they are supposed to go: "it can't be done oh well" or "we've reached the limit" so we need to design an entirely new platform. The F-14 went from total thrust of OVER 40k-lbs to OVER 54k-lbs with completely new engines (that's off the US Navy's fact file online), a 35% increase. The -6Z is only what ~11%, so there is certainly room for more improvement for a given available size cavity, especially if they go with an all new engine.

Under certain circumstances, perhaps... but the F-14 airframe had a LOT more room to play with, whereas an Alpha is distinctly undersized and its innards are fairly cramped. There may not be enough "wiggle room" in the design to make an improved engine viable.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Jefffar wrote:However there still are game stats issues created by adherence to OSM to resolve. The simplistic way would be to create new stats specifically for Robotech that represent the clear evolution of the technology. Pound for pound the later Veritechs should be more resistant to damage, carry better energy based weaponry and have better technologies for basic systems. They wouldn't be as fast or carry the heavy war loads of the Valkyrie, but then again they also don't have to be.

So... basically what we already have, yes?

Game balance fixes that don't contradict canon (that badly).

Not really. By letting other companies dictate its canon HG has dramatically under represented what the capabilities of the later generation veritechs should be, especially when Protocultue is the primary power source for both mecha and weapons. There is no reason for the Alpha not to have at least as good a control system as the Valkyrie for example, and it's energy gun pod should be able to outperform the GU-11 as a weapon.

@Jedi078
Forgot to add #7 earlier:

Gunpod versions of the Silverback's HRG-140 (or dual HRG-70 or single HRG-70 which ever you prefer) and ACC-11 from the Equipment mount podded into gunpods suitable for the Alpha to use. Offers potential superior range, payload, and hitting power compared to the EU-13/15. The other equipment mount weapons might also be Alpha mountable in a similar manner.

Seto wrote:But, in this specific case, there has been no move to canonize that. Try again, friend.

But why has there been no move to canonize it? Is it simply an oversight that hasn't been brought to their attention? TY was a bit surprised to find out the animation had 3 different wing configurations on the Sylphid (2 of which the RPG recognizes) when I mentioned it to him awhile back IIRC.

And it still doesn't stop people from doing their own thing for the RPG to get the Alpha to fit better by adopting those AEs. In this respect it is supportable by the show itself from certain POV, unlike say pointing toward Gundam or Zoids for justification on something.

SetO wrote:FAST packs in general have a significant negative effect on performance in RAW... so it's really not surprising.

Agreed, but those FAST-Packs are intended for specific conditions and designed with them in mind and to certain requirements. None of which are actually indicative of what one intended for atmospheric use would result in, considering they all appear to optimized for space.

Engines alone are going to be more efficient in a vacuum than in atmosphere. The SSME has 22% more thrust in vacuum than at sea level, and the J-2 from the Apollo days has even more thrust in vacuum over sea level (over 200%), and the RD-270 is 7% more, etc. With impacts like the J-2 possible, I can see the space optimized engines being a potential liability when used in the atmosphere when combined with the high-drag forms of the pods they are attached to.

While the SSFA's are more conformal than the VF-1s, they still stick-out in such a way that they can have a negative impact on the airflow I suspect. Look at the F-16 and F-15 conformal pods that don't have engines and don't seem to have a major impact for comparison, and they don't stick out like that disrupting airflow. Put simply the RT Fast-packs to date are poorly designed for atmospheric use, so it is not surprising that they result in poor atmospheric performance.

Seto wrote:They specifically say that it's pushing the actual aircraft itself to the limit, not its pilot...

Which actually makes no sense, unless those are some seriously overpowered engines in the FAST-Pack. And if that is the case, that means one can go with less powerful engines to avoid pushing the aircraft to its limit.

Seto wrote:Under certain circumstances, perhaps... but the F-14 airframe had a LOT more room to play with, whereas an Alpha is distinctly undersized and its innards are fairly cramped. There may not be enough "wiggle room" in the design to make an improved engine viable.

Actually the new engines the F-14 received are smaller than the originals (in diameter and length), but put out more thrust. So the F-14 actually gained room to play with not sacrifice it, all while getting more thrust out of it.

Jefffar wrote:Not really. By letting other companies dictate its canon HG has dramatically under represented what the capabilities of the later generation veritechs should be, especially when Protocultue is the primary power source for both mecha and weapons. [...]

Y'see... the problem is that Harmony Gold isn't letting other companies dictate its canon, they're choosing to seek out this material and adopt it as official for Robotech. Why are they doing it? Because they want their official, canon mecha stats to line up with what's in the animation in a logical fashion. Obviously it isn't going to satisfy people who want to see a growth in capability, but it isn't under-representing the abilities of those mecha, because it matches what's in the animation itself. We don't see later generations of mecha in Robotech boast greater abilities than their predecessors... we see a steady downward trend, as mecha get smaller, slower, less agile, and slowly lose the fluid, almost organic economy of motion of the VF-1.

It's no big deal to change the RPG stats, since nobody goes into it expecting total accuracy... Palladium does that all the time, as much to improve the mecha as to diminish their performance. Changing the canon stats, now that means taking the stats away from something that matches the animation... and the animation still remains the most important part of Robotech.

I should give some consideration to ways to improve the Alpha by thinking inside the box, for a future post.

ShadowLogan wrote:But why has there been no move to canonize it? Is it simply an oversight that hasn't been brought to their attention? [...]

In all honesty, I would expect that Tommy is aware of it and that there's been no move to incorporate it into the Alpha spec because the OSM doesn't support it. Unlike Southern Cross, where information is sparse at the best of times, and animation model sheets offer practically no detail worth mentioning (which is a bad thing for fans and translators alike), MOSPEADA and Macross offer a wealth of detail.

Tommy would probably have been surprised by your assertion that the Shrewfield had three wing configs, as the animation model sheet indicates only one (the others are apparently recurring off-model animation), and finding info on that series is a really tall order... as I found out the hard way.

ShadowLogan wrote:Agreed, but those FAST-Packs are intended for specific conditions and designed with them in mind and to certain requirements. None of which are actually indicative of what one intended for atmospheric use would result in, considering they all appear to optimized for space.

The pack would have to be of similar or greater size to the leg-conformal pack on the SSA in order to carry a reasonable complement of missiles... that poses a few problems though, relating to wing surface available and gun pod storage for the regular Alpha variants, as well as potential lift ratio and drag issues.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which actually makes no sense, unless those are some seriously overpowered engines in the FAST-Pack. And if that is the case, that means one can go with less powerful engines to avoid pushing the aircraft to its limit.

'tis a world of transforming robots and giant aliens, the conventional yardsticks for sense are of little use to us here.

Please, tell me where in the animation we receive an actual qualitative measurement of the relative speeds of the Valkyrie, Logan and Alpha or at least have them on the screen together to show us which one is actually faster?.

Jefffar wrote:Please, tell me where in the animation we receive an actual qualitative measurement of the relative speeds of the Valkyrie, Logan and Alpha or at least have them on the screen together to show us which one is actually faster?.

We don't... but what we do have is performance-related evidence that can be evaluated objectively, such as having the VF-1 able to get orbital under its own power in "Space Fold", while the Logan and Alpha have to be ferried into orbit by a shuttle ("Volunteers") or are unable to make it at all. Harmony Gold adopted their specs from the OSM because it was quick, logical, and guaranteed they wouldn't contradict the animation.

There are in-universe reasons for the lack of technological advancement, unpopular though they may be. It's not stopping anyone from coming up with their own ways to improve the Alpha for their own games. All that Harmony Gold's staff would really have to do to fix the problems with comparing the VF-1 to later designs is redesignate the later designs as attack planes... which they already are.

Seto Kaiba wrote:We don't... but what we do have is performance-related evidence that can be evaluated objectively, such as having the VF-1 able to get orbital under its own power in "Space Fold", while the Logan and Alpha have to be ferried into orbit by a shuttle ("Volunteers") or are unable to make it at all.

Except that speed in Fighter mode is what you're talking about and that is NOT a downward trend.

There are in-universe reasons for the lack of technological advancement, unpopular though they may be.

No there isn't. Nowhere in the animation does it show a lack of technological advancement unless you're purposefully closing your eyes.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Except that speed in Fighter mode is what you're talking about and that is NOT a downward trend.

Speed in fighter mode and service ceiling are related aspects of performance... and I suppose you're right, an abrupt decline in performance that leaves later designs unable to reach orbit without being ferried there by a separate craft isn't a downward trend, it's a single, sharp drop in capability.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:No there isn't. Nowhere in the animation does it show a lack of technological advancement unless you're purposefully closing your eyes.

Oh, my eyes are wide open... and both Tommy and I seem to be seeing the same thing. Humanity's mecha in Robotech are getting smaller, less aerodynamic, and accordingly less agile in flight and on the ground. I know there are some areas of superficial advancement, like broader adoption of laser weaponry (per the show itself) on platforms like the Spartas, but that's a technology that was already common in 2009. Energy small arms might've been more evident in the later sagas, but they already existed and were in use in the Macross Saga... mentioned explicitly in "The Big Escape". The only real advancement we ever see is the Cyclone, but that may only count because of its transformation capability if one takes Louie's dialog about powered armor isn't account. Prior to Tommy's (not-actually-a) retcon regarding fusion power, we couldn't even point to a leap in power technology. Aesthetics changed, but technology didn't really go anywhere or do anything for most of it.

Like as not, Robotech was made from three shows that coincidentally all featured humanity repelling its first alien invasion with its first generation of transforming robots. The shows each put humanity at different levels of technological advancement. They decided what human technology would be capable of for each of their shows, and those decisions determined the animation's contents and ultimately Robotech's. That the latter two were more on Gundam's wavelength than Macross's regarding the capabilities that military robots should have is just unfortunate, but it does mean that there is a noticeable drop in the levels of performance we see in Robotech after the Macross Saga.

Harmony Gold USA... love 'em, loathe 'em, or anything in between... opted to go with the OSM because that was the most expedient solution that guaranteed an answer consistent with the animation. Comparisons of mecha from different sagas have to be weighted not just on the difference in objective performance, but in terms of their appropriateness to a particular role. Our particular problem in this thread is that the role that was given to the Alpha doesn't really suit it... in terms of how it's depicted, it should more appropriately get designated as an Ground Attack plane for close air support.



I've been toying with several minor tweaks to the Alpha that would make it more respectable without making any changes to its canon performance figures or anything like that, and I've come up with a few ideas.

1. The EU-13 is not a laser.
Officially, anyway, it's a particle beam weapon... and its damage is more or less identical to the Regult's beam guns under RAW, so it wouldn't hurt to either increase its range to match the Regult's and/or give the gun the same knockdown rule the Regult has.

2. The EU-13 is a rechargeable gun.
MOSPEADA's OSM is pretty vague on the subject, but there are one or two bits that suggest that both the regular and Dark Legioss powered their gunpods externally in part or in full. Treat the gun pod as having the same field-recharge abilities as the Spartas gunpod.

3. Adopt the OSM's dorsal missile package as an optional piece of kit along with the existing FAST packs from the Super Shadow Fighter for regular Alphas.
The conformal leg tanks and verniers might block the regular mounting station for the gun pod a bit, but the OSM offers a third, dorsal option for the EU-13 as part of an 8 missile package that sits between the dorsal sub-engines. Use in space in place of a Beta, add 8 SRMs and a dodge bonus.

4. The nosecone lasers are a "laser machine gun".
I use this same approach with my OSM based games, because this is canon for Macross, but treat the nose lasers as being a selective-fire-rate machine gun, with an appropriately powerful burst setting for that occasional moment when damage matters more than precision.

5. Adopt the "Smart Missile" rule from Macross II's core book.
We see some pretty lengthy missile chases in RTSC itself, which go beyond what one might consider a single melee attack... it might be worth exploring to adopt the rule that grants the missiles two melee attacks to hit instead of just one. It could get rather messy, considering the quantity the Alpha carries, but there you go.

6. The EU-15 is a two-in-one weapon... beam machine gun and Synchro Cannon.
In the OSM, the Dark Legioss' beam rifle was a compact synchrotron cannon... which is just another form of particle accelerator. Keep the regular stats, but give the gun the ability to fire a sustained beam with both double range and double (or greater) mega-damage, requiring one action to brace and one to fire.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Speed in fighter mode and service ceiling are related aspects of performance... and I suppose you're right, an abrupt decline in performance that leaves later designs unable to reach orbit without being ferried there by a separate craft isn't a downward trend, it's a single, sharp drop in capability.

Why would a Lightweight Dogfighter (Logan) or Air Superiority/Ground Attack Fighter (Alpha) need to reach orbit under its own power? They're not INTERCEPTORS. They are not there to blunt an enemy advancing from orbit, since those jobs fall to other conventional vehicles in the series.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Oh, my eyes are wide open... and both Tommy and I seem to be seeing the same thing. Humanity's mecha in Robotech are getting smaller, less aerodynamic, and accordingly less agile in flight and on the ground.

Please, provide proof of that claim.

I know there are some areas of superficial advancement, like broader adoption of laser weaponry (per the show itself) on platforms like the Spartas, but that's a technology that was already common in 2009.

On platforms many times the size and mass of vehicles like the Spartas and Logan. Ever heard of miniaturization? That's progress last time I checked.

That the latter two were more on Gundam's wavelength than Macross's regarding the capabilities that military robots should have is just unfortunate, but it does mean that there is a noticeable drop in the levels of performance we see in Robotech after the Macross Saga.

Sorry but this is your opinion and its clearly not based on rational observation but upon bias.

Seto Kaiba wrote:but what we do have is performance-related evidence that can be evaluated objectively, such as having the VF-1 able to get orbital under its own power in "Space Fold", while the Logan and Alpha have to be ferried into orbit by a shuttle ("Volunteers") or are unable to make it at all.

In "Space Fold" the SDF-1 shifted to horizontal propulsion in order to pick up the VF-1 fighters. I don't believe it is clear what the altitude was for this pick up. In "Viva Miriya" the VF-1's used Launch Boosters.
Without a lift from the SDF-1 or a pair of Launch Boosters, I suspect the VF-1 would be unable to reach escape velocity nor maintain altitude.

Gryphon wrote:Hmm…that does make it seem pretty snug doesn’t it? Notably though, a 250mm wide missile should fit better than that.

Aye, it does seem like a snug fit... but that issue is replicated on the only actual appearance of the missiles, the later models of toy pictured in MOSPEADA: Complete Art Works. I don't own one myself, but one friend of mine does, and the missiles really are a pain in the butt to get to. The sticking point for that does appear to be the illumination on the top of the hip joint, which protrudes unhelpfully into the space that the missile would occupy. That bit sticks up well above the physical top of the hip itself.

I did note, since the Dark Legioss is not featured in that section, that while the Dark model doesn't have the missiles, it also doesn't have the unhelpful protrusion... so there's a candidate variant where the problem is a less severe one.

Gryphon wrote:I would note that the time the VF01s appear to fly into space, they are actually flying into the upper atmosphere to meet up with a descending SDF-1. In Robotech terms that isn’t really a stable orbit, though hit is a superior (probably) service ceiling to everything save for perhaps the Sylphid fighters. The OSM might spell it out that they are actually in space without the use of some booster system, but Robotech doesn’t seem to be quite like that. [...]

The official Robotech.com Infopedia entry for the VF-1 does mention that it is able to reach low orbit under its own power, which is consistent with the OSM putting its unboosted service ceiling above 100km, the generally agreed-upon "edge" of space. It probably won't help that it was something added to the Infopedia because I brought the subject up though...

Gryphon wrote:Saying they are driving new fighter doesn’t require them to actually be new frames. Older airframes get bumped down to other groups all the time, and they still say they are driving new fighters. [...]

In this case, though, we're dealing with a radically new variant in a setting where there is but one military to rule them all... and the established convention for modified unit designations is a second variant letter on the Alpha platform. If we were looking at modded -H or -I variants, we should expect them to be designated as VF/A-6HX and -6IX. There were even changes to the basic shape of the airframe, which suggests that, for most purposes, they're completely new aircraft.

Gryphon wrote:Nothing we saw in the movie precludes the relatively easy removal of the shadow and synchro systems. Grant tells Louis to take them off line, one after the other, and that seems to make it a non-issue for the Icarus.

Here's the thing... if it was as simple as just turning them off, they would've have needed to go boost both a ship and squadron's worth of fighters that didn't have their systems properly connected up at all. Clearly the inerting of a shadow tech system takes a bit of doing. The RPG seems to roll with this in the descriptions for the SDF-4, saying that they basically had to cut all power to the bow gun, yank a bunch of parts, and cap it by welding the barrel shut.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why would a Lightweight Dogfighter (Logan) or Air Superiority/Ground Attack Fighter (Alpha) need to reach orbit under its own power? They're not INTERCEPTORS.

This specific lack of capability is explicitly mentioned as a shortcoming in the Alpha's design in both canon and RPG sources. Canon glosses over it, simply stating that it necessitated the introduction of a whole other new aircraft to fix the problem, while the RPG goes a bit dramatic with it and refers to that lack of capability as an upsetting "logistical nightmare" (core book, manga ed., pg111). For the Alpha, it IS a significant issues due in no small part to the fact that it was the main variable fighter of the Expeditionary Force for decades, and the specific nature of the operations involved apparently made that lack of capability a major hindrance.

The Logan doesn't really NEED it, per se... but again, the need for it to be ferried into space aboard another ship is acknowledged as an issue in canon and the RPG, and the RPG makes quite a meal out of its deficient flight characteristics when employed in anything other than a police role.

EDIT: I am curious as to where your assertion that the Logan is a dogfighter comes from... it isn't described that way in the Infopedia, and the Masters Saga sourcebook describes the Logan as being a "two-mode light variable attack aerospacecraft designed to fill ground attack and close air support roles within the TASC". It also goes on to describe the Logan as being too poorly armed to function effectively in an air superiority role, and armaments sufficiently heavy to make it pose a threat degraded its flight performance beyond the point where they could fight Bioroids with any effectiveness.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Please, provide proof of that claim.

The officially-acknowledged reason for the "fusion retcon" was, in part, to address the perceived lack of any advancement in mecha between sagas.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:On platforms many times the size and mass of vehicles like the Spartas and Logan. Ever heard of miniaturization? That's progress last time I checked.

Here's the thing, man... and please, I'm not trying to hack you off. I'm just giving you the truth as I see it.

The laser weapons evidenced after the Macross Saga in Robotech are not actually smaller than what's available in the Macross Saga. The coaxial laser weapons used on various mecha including the VF-1 are, at most, 2 meters in length according to the multi-view diagrams found in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1. The Spartas' gun pod is larger, based on the art and official RT dimensions for the tank's chassis, as is the Alpha's gun pod. Obviously the Spartas' huge main mount and rotary laser cannons were bigger as well. Similarly, the laser rifle Max carries in "The Big Escape" is as small or smaller than every laser rifle we're shown in the Masters Saga, and is about the same size as the rifle adapter Gallant H90. I'll grant you, the Logan's gun pod is a bit smaller, and so are the beam guns on the AGACs, but not by much.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Sorry but this is your opinion and its clearly not based on rational observation but upon bias.

Well, it IS based on observation... but in terms of actual measurements of physical agility, we do see a bit of decline between the Macross Saga and Masters Saga, and considerable drops between the Masters Saga and New Generation. The connection to Gundam... well... that's something original creators acknowledge, in terms of homage. The Bioroid's basically a tiny Zaku, and even uses some of the same sound effects.

In terms of movement speed, fluidity of motion, and overall agility, the mecha of Southern Cross are in between Macross and Gundam's relative extremes, closer to the Macross end. The larger mecha in MOSPEADA are much closer to the Gundam end. The Bioroids are the only ones that get right up there with the VF-1 and destroids in terms of acrobatics.

rtsurfer wrote:In "Space Fold" the SDF-1 shifted to horizontal propulsion in order to pick up the VF-1 fighters. I don't believe it is clear what the altitude was for this pick up. In "Viva Miriya" the VF-1's used Launch Boosters.

According to the Robotech.com Infopedia, the VF-1 can achieve low orbit under its own power, in reference to the events of "Space Fold", but requires pick-up in orbit or a booster to leave orbit. The boosters used in the episode "Viva Miriya" and the From the Stars comic are shown as being used for this purpose... it gets 'em there quickly, and gets 'em above low orbit.

rtsurfer wrote:Without a lift from the SDF-1 or a pair of Launch Boosters, I suspect the VF-1 would be unable to reach escape velocity nor maintain altitude.

If we were talking consistency with the OSM, which it's a safe bet Tommy would go all-in for (which is really the reason we're having this discussion at all) the VF-1 had a stable service ceiling over 100km, which means maintaining altitude wouldn't be an issue. However, the RT sources do acknowledge that the VF-1 cannot break orbit for deep space without more oomph.

Seto wrote:We don't... but what we do have is performance-related evidence that can be evaluated objectively, such as having the VF-1 able to get orbital under its own power in "Space Fold", while the Logan and Alpha have to be ferried into orbit by a shuttle ("Volunteers") or are unable to make it at all. Harmony Gold adopted their specs from the OSM because it was quick, logical, and guaranteed they wouldn't contradict the animation.

Actually I woudn't consider this an example of the VF-1 having superior performance. We do not know the latitudes those platforms launch from, or their intended orbital inclination and targeted altitude. All of which are factors here as I've mentioned previously. The Space Shuttle actually took a performance hit in when launching to the International Space Station at ~40deg inclination (this also applies to to its Mir Flights, and those are at an even higher inclination) as compared to its normal ~30deg inclination for solo flights launching from Cape Canaveral Florida.

It is entirely possible that in general all the VFs have similar performance in that regard, but can only exploit that feature from certain launch areas into certain orbital planes. Only the Beta really demonstrates true global deployment option in the series, and it launches from (presumably near Reflex Point) and flies to the Moon. Even the VF-1 seems to have some restrictions placed on its ability to get into orbit from canon ("Viva Miryia" and FTS comic).

Seto wrote:In all honesty, I would expect that Tommy is aware of it and that there's been no move to incorporate it into the Alpha spec because the OSM doesn't support it.

I agree it is more likely he knows about it than the Sylphid, given the uRRG even poists the locations exisit based on the Model kits which can be seen as loosely connected to the OSM. Originally though HG leftout the Logan's hardpoints, even though the uRRG has them. And we both know the uRRG had a hand in writing the Infopedia stats. That they changed the Logan entry shows they are willing to do it, and we know they have canonized AEs, so if HG bases the Alpha MRM on the animation and not model kits they should be fine (it almost looks like in the animation it is "pod" mounted as opposed to rail as in the model kit, different enough to avoid legal troubles I would suspect)

Seto wrote:The pack would have to be of similar or greater size to the leg-conformal pack on the SSA in order to carry a reasonable complement of missiles... that poses a few problems though, relating to wing surface available and gun pod storage for the regular Alpha variants, as well as potential lift ratio and drag issues.

That really depends on what the primary purpose of the FAST-Pack is going to be for. They don't have to make it a one size fits all approach, they can emphasize certain features at the expense of others to enhance the Alpha.

Atmospheric model could optimize the (F-mode) Dorsal stations into MRM launchers, with the engines providing the necessary power to counter the negative impact of the mass/airflow over the station (at minimum). The Forearm stations could be made to be about the width of the arm (and thus the intake) giving it 4-6 MRMs total between the two, the existing wing stations look to be similar size (now up to 8-12). All while maintaining performance without negative impacts. The Leg stations could be devoted to pure fuel/engine use.

Then again they could come out with FAST-packs that don't emphasize weapon carriage at all, but instead seek to increase performance (maneuverability, speed, range with extra raw thrust) alone. It is foolish to think the pods MUST have weapons on them to be of any use or value to the Alpha.

Seto wrote:Harmony Gold USA... love 'em, loathe 'em, or anything in between... opted to go with the OSM because that was the most expedient solution that guaranteed an answer consistent with the animation.

Actually HG could simply answer with the pilots not pushing the envelope due to mission profile (Is a relative ~Mach4 speed really the best for CAS of ground troops or a close into the ship you are defending, I don't think so), or the unit is better optimized for certain flight regimes (like it can go faster than OSM specs, but it consumes fuel much faster than it does upto ~Mach2.5) or PC fuel comes in a variety of potencies (Masters mention potency level of the Protoculture at the Mounds, and IINM their own stockpiles) that means it can effect performance. They certainly have workable solutions to explain the difference between how it was animated and independent RT STATS.

RSCF wrote:Why would a Lightweight Dogfighter (Logan) or Air Superiority/Ground Attack Fighter (Alpha) need to reach orbit under its own power? They're not INTERCEPTORS.

With regard to the Logan, in "Star Dust" Sean mentions that Marie is going up with a squadron of interceptors to meet the rescue cityship, and she is piloting a Logan. So it does appear that the Logan is intended to be used an interceptor, however it's armaments load is similar to early jet interceptors (YF-12 only carried 3 Missiles, F-106 only has 4 missiles) than the F-14 with it's 8 missile load that likely inspired the VF-1. Now that can be seen as the Logan being a "Lightweight" mecha and the rest more of a Medium-Heavy range for missile load, but the Logan is described as an Interceptor.

If the Alpha is being used by the UEEF to assault worlds, they may want it to be able to return to orbit on its own if pushed back. Now that requirement is going to change depending on the size of the world in question, but if they are looking at Earth-like worlds it stands to reason you want to have it to have the capacity for an Earth-like world. Given the need for the Beta, the push back requirement seems to have grown beyond what the frame could do (or easily grow into) originally, possibly due to some advanced encounters that showed the original value was insufficient if it was based on experience from the 1RW and not a later encounter.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Sorry but this is your opinion and its clearly not based on rational observation but upon bias.

Well, it IS based on observation... but in terms of actual measurements of physical agility, we do see a bit of decline between the Macross Saga and Masters Saga, and considerable drops between the Masters Saga and New Generation. The connection to Gundam... well... that's something original creators acknowledge, in terms of homage. The Bioroid's basically a tiny Zaku, and even uses some of the same sound effects.

In terms of movement speed, fluidity of motion, and overall agility, the mecha of Southern Cross are in between Macross and Gundam's relative extremes, closer to the Macross end. The larger mecha in MOSPEADA are much closer to the Gundam end. The Bioroids are the only ones that get right up there with the VF-1 and destroids in terms of acrobatics.

I have to chime in on this one because another option could happen.

Have you thought about the people? In Macross you had a lot of folks who served or recently served in a major global war. Dogfighting skills were probably at their height.

The later generations you have less and less training for that need because in theory their mecha Should be better. The technology is more advanced, and thus skills have diminished. That is why when you see Col Wolfe take out Invid it was supposedly a wonderful thing to watch, and not a missile slugfest that Scott uses.

100 km is an altitude, not an orbit itself. Being able to reach that altitude does not mean the Valkyrie can sustain it nor does it mean that the Valkyrie has reached escape velocity and can break orbit. All it means is that the Valkyrie can get up that high.

Tiree wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Sorry but this is your opinion and its clearly not based on rational observation but upon bias.

Well, it IS based on observation... but in terms of actual measurements of physical agility, we do see a bit of decline between the Macross Saga and Masters Saga, and considerable drops between the Masters Saga and New Generation. The connection to Gundam... well... that's something original creators acknowledge, in terms of homage. The Bioroid's basically a tiny Zaku, and even uses some of the same sound effects.

In terms of movement speed, fluidity of motion, and overall agility, the mecha of Southern Cross are in between Macross and Gundam's relative extremes, closer to the Macross end. The larger mecha in MOSPEADA are much closer to the Gundam end. The Bioroids are the only ones that get right up there with the VF-1 and destroids in terms of acrobatics.

I have to chime in on this one because another option could happen.

Have you thought about the people? In Macross you had a lot of folks who served or recently served in a major global war. Dogfighting skills were probably at their height.

The later generations you have less and less training for that need because in theory their mecha Should be better. The technology is more advanced, and thus skills have diminished. That is why when you see Col Wolfe take out Invid it was supposedly a wonderful thing to watch, and not a missile slugfest that Scott uses.

Doctrine counts. in Macross, the doctrine seems to have been dogfight heavy. missile munitions were fairly limited until the FAST packs were added, so a greater emphasis seems to have been put onto gun/laser fighting.

in New Gen, the doctrine seems to have been Fighters more as missile buses, presumably due to the lessons from the first war, where mass missile assualts by FAST pack VF's showed themselves to be more effective/survivable than dogfighting against the zent's superior numbers. the Alpha and Beta don't need to be as fast or agile, because they aren'y trying to dogfight, their trying to blow their opponents away at long range. against most of the enemies they expected to fight (zentreadi pods) this would have worked fairly well. against the ones they did end up fighting (invid mecha and masters bioroids) it worked well too.

in southern cross we see a sort of hybrid approach.. you have units that dogfight and units that spam missiles. presumably part of that is because the ASC had to deal with human dissidents with 1st war gear from time to time as well as plan for stopping alien invasions. the dogfighting units are mostly atmospheric in use, while the missile pam units show up more in space, so it could also be a case of each branch of the ASC's armed forces having their own doctrine ideas (not dissimilar to how the USAF, USN, and USMC each differ in their views of how to best use air power.)

change in doctrine can change tactical training too. during vietnam doctrine was "missiles, missiles, and missiles".. BVR combat was expected to make dogfighting obsolete. didn't quite for out that way at the time, and they had to start training for dogfighting again, but they still never put the same emphasis on the dogfight that you had prior.. and even today, dogfighting skills are a lower priority than learning to deploy your guided missiles correctly at longer ranges. (mainly be because today we have missiles that actually work the way they aare supposed to)

same thing with ground attack.. prior to the guided bomb and AGM's you had both high altitude bombing and low altitude precision bombing. in vietnam you saw AGM's and guided bombs show up, and suddenly the emphasis is on high altitude precision.. then SAM's advanced and suddenly they are needing to build planes to do high speed low altitude strikes just to survive. then countermeasures catch up to the SAM's and suddenly we find we need to go back to high altitude precision strikes because low altitude is too lethal. ever change in doctrine meant a new generation of pilots trained for it.. and the previous generations playing catch up and not being very good at whatever the current doctrine is.

by new gen, the doctrine is probably less focused on agility and more on firepower.. and the pilots would be trained for that and the planes built to meet those requirements. and the UEEF had extra limits (smaller planes to increase fighter wings aboarrd space limited ships for example, and likely more robust construction so they aren't hanger queens) leading to changes in comparative capability. again, look at the example of the F-4 vs F-16.. when the F-16A was adopted it was actually an inferior plane to the F-4's it replaced, in pretty much everything but turn rate. but the doctrine of the time had changed.. turn rate and the like was considered more important than speed, durability, payload, etc. by the time they figured out they needed all the others as well, it was too late, they had to muddle through and make the best of things. the F-4 vs F-18 was actually worse.. the F-18 didn't have anything better than the F-4's it replaced, other than smaller size and being nominally easier to maintain. but navy and marine doctrine of the time called for smaller cheaper planes to handle the general role duties, so they could boost the number flying.

I know I'm kind of late to the game but here's my take.

1. Yes, the Alpha should have computer assisted controls. Every Mecha would need them for everything from combat monuvers to just keeping a 18+ foot tall robots upright.

2. I don't think the Alpha should have them, but I do thing that the Beta's MM-16 should be Medium range. This would fit with Maia taking out a Clam ship in SC.

3. and 4. No the Alpha already has 10 weapon stations in the MM-60 (3 in each leg, 1 in each forearm and shoulder). But I do think that it should able to carry more then just short range missiles. There is precedent with the Condor, but I could see other Tactical pods also.

5. I'd stay with the magazines, putting the spare in the forearms on the opposite side of the missile launcher. The reason is that with the new use of rail cannons I could see them being used in GU pods. And the pods would need the use of spare clips.

Just because the Alpha doesn't stat like the VF-1, doesn't mean that its a "flying coffin". The two Mecha are designed different, wile the VF-1 is a n Interceptor wile the Alpha is more of a Multi role fighter (think more F-35 less F-22). As a multi role fighter it's able to fill more roles then any other mecha before it. For example, you have a single mission you have to escort troops from a ship in orbit to the ground and then assist them on the ground. Now if you use say, a VF-1 (without fast packs), it would launch with a full load out of ordinance, have to ditch whatever it has left as it hits the planets atmosphere, (unless you want the stress of reentry to rip the wings off the fighter). Then it would have to leave the troops, land, rearm, and then assist the troops. Then you take the Alpha, (also without fast packs), would be able to stay with the troops the entire mission because it has internal weapon stations and wouldn't have to loose any weapons daring reentry. The internal bays of the Alpha also allows it to carry a larger mix of ordinance at one time. Using the example above, the Alpha could carry the equivalent to 36 Sidewinders, 16 Hellfire, and still have two weapon stations for other tactical pods.
As for the hole speed issue. High Mach speed in combat is not always a good thing. Turning for one thing. Look at the Blackbird at Mach 3 it takes a 100 mls to turn, that why the design never worked as a fighter. Also you ever notice that not many if any real world 5th generation aircraft are extremely high mach. The F-22 tops out at Mach 2.8 and super cruses at 1.6 and that the new Interceptor. While the F-35 the Multi role fighter, that replacing the F/A -18, F-16, AV-8, and the A-10, has a top speed of Mach 1.6.

rem1093 wrote: Just because the Alpha doesn't stat like the VF-1, doesn't mean that its a "flying coffin".

exactly, and to call it such is using purposful hyperbole to mis-represent how things play out in the series. even the game stats show that what scott and crew did would have been impossible with VF-1's due to a lack of bases every 48 hours.

As for the hole speed issue. High Mach speed in combat is not always a good thing. Turning for one thing.

some people equate high speeds to high maneuverability.. and that because it can go mach 900, it should have a high dodge ect.. the Space Shuttle is a good example to me of a high-mach vehicle that ain't going to dodge anything...

Look at the Blackbird at Mach 3 it takes a 100 mls to turn, that why the design never worked as a fighter. Also you ever notice that not many if any real world 5th generation aircraft are extremely high mach. The F-22 tops out at Mach 2.8 and super cruses at 1.6 and that the new Interceptor. While the F-35 the Multi role fighter, that replacing the F/A -18, F-16, AV-8, and the A-10, has a top speed of Mach 1.6.

thanks for the info.

ShadowLogan wrote:Actually I woudn't consider this an example of the VF-1 having superior performance. We do not know the latitudes those platforms launch from, or their intended orbital inclination and targeted altitude. [...]

None of which really matter, because we can point to canon statements that indicate a VF-1 is perfectly able to get into low Earth orbit unassisted, while later fighters can't even chart a suborbital course. That's a clear cut and indisputable example of the VF-1 having superior performance. Latitude and so on are not mentioned as any kind of restriction in Robotech or the OSM.

ShadowLogan wrote:Even the VF-1 seems to have some restrictions placed on its ability to get into orbit from canon ("Viva Miryia" and FTS comic).

Per canon, those boosters are used to reach space quickly and/or leave orbit. Try again.

Tiree wrote:Have you thought about the people? In Macross you had a lot of folks who served or recently served in a major global war. Dogfighting skills were probably at their height.

The later generations you have less and less training for that need because in theory their mecha Should be better. The technology is more advanced, and thus skills have diminished. [...]

If anything, this should be working the other way around... the Macross Saga's pilots were drawn from civilian populations in peacetime and in extremis, while the UEEF's recruiting from a population the RPG tells us is so military-oriented that service and combat are virtually all they know. (Ref. Core book, pg.63) Yet what we get from the RPG is that these humans who know only war are getting massacred fairly often... and the RPG's often caught pointing the finger at their equipment as a big part of the reason why.

Now, in practice, the United Earth Forces seems to have had their hearts set on picking the least appropriate equipment for fighting any particular enemy after the 1st Robotech War. The VF-1's basically heralded as an enormous success because of its appropriateness for the role it found itself in, but the opposite is true for its successors. The VF/A-8 Logan is blasted by the RPG for being under-armed and under-capable to the extent that it was only viable for police actions and patrol duty, and giving it heavier missiles for use in wartime just deteriorated its performance to the extent that taking one into combat was, to use the RPG's own words", a move that was "certain death". The AGACs' description reads as a wordier version of "Too little, too late" on the following pages. It actually ends with a statement asserting that combat losses among AGACs squads in the 2nd Robotech War were so heavy that, by war's end, 85% of the pilots were raw recruits. The Alpha's a similar tale, with the RPG doesn't just tell us the 21st Mars and its Alpha fighters were "utterly destroyed" by the Invid, it even implies they did a worse job than the Conbats and Condors that tried four years earlier.

Where it gets messed up is that the problem is ultimately the same in all of those cases. The UEG adopted a combat doctrine that focused on visual-range dogfighting combat to the exclusion of all else, and then found itself horribly screwed when its enemies happened to have numerical superiority, technological superiority, or both. Their combat doctrine favors their enemies for every conflict after the 1st Robotech War, allowing the Robotech Masters and Invid to leverage their particular advantages to the fullest. The Bioroids were able to exploit their superior agility and responsiveness in close quarters with the Southern Cross mecha, and scouts and so on from the Invid were able to take gross advantage of their massively superior numbers to close with and overwhelm fighters that couldn't strike from outside the range of potential Invid retribution with impunity.

Look at that clip I'd posted from DYRL a few posts back... if the UEEF had been able to do THAT, the space battle over Reflex Point would probably have been a LOT shorter, and a lot less costly for the UEEF. If they'd kept using the VF-1, and just replaced its micro-missiles with the existing Alpha ordinance, they would have had fighters that carried three times the missile complement of the Alpha AND had long-range ordinance with which to decimate Invid units from afar.

* From OSM measurements, the standard Alpha internal missile is less than 1/3 the size of a VF-1's HMM-1 missile, used in both the Super Pack and MLOPs, meaning each MLOP would carry 45 missiles instead of just 15, and the Super Pack would triple its RPG complement from 46 to 138, for a grand total of 228 for the pictured configuration.

Jefffar wrote:100 km is an altitude, not an orbit itself. Being able to reach that altitude does not mean the Valkyrie can sustain it nor does it mean that the Valkyrie has reached escape velocity and can break orbit. All it means is that the Valkyrie can get up that high.

Again, we're told in canon that the VF-1 can achieve low Earth orbit under its own power... 100km is just the edge of space. That fact will remain a fact until Harmony Gold decides to change it, if ever.

rem1093 wrote: 1. Yes, the Alpha should have computer assisted controls. Every Mecha would need them for everything from combat monuvers to just keeping a 18+ foot tall robots upright.

The Alpha does have a combat computer, and there's no reason to assume its maneuvers aren't controlled by computer. HOWEVER, as it's demonstrably less agile than a VF-1, but also lacks the negative modifiers which come with that system when it's damaged, it may be assumed that the Alpha has a more robust, but simpler, version of that system with either built-in redundancy or greater durability.

rem1093 wrote:Just because the Alpha doesn't stat like the VF-1, doesn't mean that its a "flying coffin". The two Mecha are designed different, [...]

Like I've alluded to previously, it's not a matter of it being statted differently... it's a matter of appropriateness to a role. The VF-1 was a true multi-role fighter and it did quite well for itself fighting the Zentradi as it'd been designed to do. The Alpha was designed to fight who-knows-what, and like the other later designs, its choice to focus exclusively on ultra-short-ranged combat to the exclusion of all else turned out to be a liability when confronted by an enemy that also focused on short-range combat and didn't much care about attrition due to massively superior numbers.

In short, it's not a flying coffin because it's outperformed by its predecessor... it's a flying coffin because it's operating in the worst possible circumstances imaginable for such a specialized craft.

rem1093 wrote:Now if you use say, a VF-1 (without fast packs), it would launch with a full load out of ordinance, have to ditch whatever it has left as it hits the planets atmosphere, (unless you want the stress of reentry to rip the wings off the fighter).

Based on the content of the From the Stars limited comic, this is actually an untrue assumption. Roy makes a power dive into Earth's atmosphere and somehow managed to keep his gunpod attached without any apparently issue. Bear in mind, at the time the VF-1's legs were in the "slightly down" FAST pack config, and that left the gun pod even more exposed than usual... yet nothing happened. 'tis a tough little plane, to be sure.

rem1093 wrote:The internal bays of the Alpha also allows it to carry a larger mix of ordinance at one time. Using the example above, the Alpha could carry the equivalent to 36 Sidewinders, 16 Hellfire, and still have two weapon stations for other tactical pods.

The Alpha's internal missile launchers are not variable payload, though... there's not enough room for them to take anything larger than the one type of SRMs that are in there, because the launchers are surface-mount self-contained modules, and don't extent deeper into the airframe.

Gryphon wrote:I would much prefer such a set up now, rather than having a Beta listed at Mach 7.2 (DAMN! Is it really that fast?!) in ballistic flight...whatever that is supposed to mean. Whats it's typical speed at altitude then?

Basically, it's the exact same thing as what you just referred to in 1st edition... just worded differently. The combiner's thrust-to-weight ratio is actually lower than the Beta alone, but it's brute-forcing its way into the upper atmosphere and space.

Gryphon wrote:Robotech.com doesn’t say the VF-1 can reach orbit, full stop. What is specifically says is that I CAN’T reach escape velocity, which is the velocity required to actually escape gravities effect, and thus to reach orbit. [...]

Try again, chief...

Per the official material, the VF-1 can reach low Earth orbit just fine... it just can't leave orbit for deep space. The wording is poor, I agree, and there's a similar eccentricity in terminology in the Beta's entry and AotSC.

Gryphon wrote:In the series, the VF-1 clearly flies up to an impressively high altitude, yes. But it meets a hovering (without antigravity pods I note) SDF-1 to land. Not an actual orbit there. [...]

Not according to the series, which mere minutes later indicates explicitly that they ARE in a stable orbit.

Gryphon wrote:It’s pretty likely an Alpha could have copied the same trick really, since the sky was still surprisingly blue for what was purported to be even a sub-orbital, never mind an orbital, rendezvous. [...]

We're told that the Alpha is incapable of even achieving sub-orbital flight under its own power, meaning that even ballistic trajectories won't get it near 100km in altitude.
.

Gryphon wrote:Come to think of it, I seriously doubt an F-15 of any sort should have twice the service ceiling and a significantly higher thrust to weight ration than an Alpha honestly. Most especially since the Robotech.com official listings touts it T/W ratio as being one of its more impressive capabilities. Does anyone have any sort of official numbers on what the other non-Macross mecha T/W should be?

I did work up a chart using OSM data for Macross's various VFs, and threw the MOSPEADA mecha into the mix as a bonus, along with numerous American and Russian jet fighters. It's a little out of date tho, I've got to fix the numbers for the VF-2SS and YF-29, and add the YF-30.

The Robotech official material does frequently mention the Alpha as having a "large" T/W ratio, but the remark is never put into any kind of usable context. Based on the OSM data, the AFC-01 Legioss (AKA your VF/A-6 Alpha) does actually have a pretty impressive thrust-to-weight ratio when compared to that of just about any modern fighter aircraft of the last four decades. It's approximately 2.059, which puts it above a great many fighters on both sides, the only exceptions being the PAK FA and F-35. VF-wise, the VF-1 has those beat handily with the A/J version's 3.472 and the S version's 3.774, both of which still exceed what's within the grasp of modern jet fighters by a fair amount. No data is available for the Southern Cross fighters, so no determination can be made there, unfortunately. Observed performance suggests they're in around the same area as the Alpha, or perhaps slightly lower.

Just to point out:

U-2

Maximum speed: 434 knots (500 mph, 805 km/h)
Service ceiling: 70,000+ ft (21,300+ m)

F-15

Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 2.5+ (1,650+ mph, 2,665+ km/h)
Low altitude: Mach 1.2 (900 mph, 1,450 km/h)
Service ceiling: 65,000 ft (20,000 m)

Service Ceiling and Maximum Speed have nothing to do with each other.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Gryphon wrote:In the series, the VF-1 clearly flies up to an impressively high altitude, yes. But it meets a hovering (without antigravity pods I note) SDF-1 to land. Not an actual orbit there. [...]

Not according to the series, which mere minutes later indicates explicitly that they ARE in a stable orbit

The SDF-1 is shown climbing after recovering the fighters, not to mention the laser bombardment & failed docking attempt. I doubt the position report of their orbit at an altitude of 100 miles applies to the earlier VF-1 recovery operation.

Gryphon wrote:Robotech.com doesn’t say the VF-1 can reach orbit, full stop. What is specifically says is that I CAN’T reach escape velocity, which is the velocity required to actually escape gravities effect, and thus to reach orbit. So what we have there is bad writing one way or another, because it specifically says the VF-1 can reach orbit, but that it is unable to actually reach orbit…see, that’s a contradiction, either one can be pointed at to back up an argument.

Actually, what it says is:

copy-pasted from Robotech.com's Infopedia wrote:Though the VF-1 is capable of reaching lower Earth orbit, it is unable to attain escape velocity on its own. Various booster and armor systems were devised to extend its range and/or combat performance.

and lists it's flight speeds (in fighter form) as:

all models wrote:Max speed at sea level: Mach 1.4
Max speed at 10,000m: Mach 2.71
Max speed at 30,000m: Mach 3.87

Here's comparable information from the Alpha:

The fighter is fully space-capable, and is carried in great numbers on the Ikazuchi-class cruiser. However, the limited fuel tankage of this craft gives it short legs in space, a deficiency that led to the development of the Beta Fighter, to which this mecha can attach. In addition, the Alpha can not reach suborbital altitudes on its own, and also required the Beta for this.

and

for H and I wrote:Max speed at sea level: 1100 kph
Max speed at 10,000m: 1900 kph
Max speed at 30,000m: 3000 kph

That's roughly Mach 0.898 at sea level
mach 1.789 at 10,000m*
Mach 2.77 at 30,000*

for Z model wrote:Max speed at sea level: 1200 kph
Max speed at 10,000m: 2050 kph
Max speed at 30,000m: 3250 kph

Sea level: Mach 0.98
Sea level: Mach 1.938*
Sea level: Mach 3.00*

Mach numbers determined by the formula M = V / V(sound)
where M is Mach number, V is velocity of aircraft, and V(sound) is speed of sound.


*Wikipedia lists speed of sound at Sea Level, 11,000m-20,000m, and 29.000m (given normal atmospheric conditions and temp.)