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In Palladium Fantasy, save vs Soul Drinking counts as a saving throw vs magic (the same modifiers apply) so I think that is something important to take into account. That said, it is still a potent ability and even gods are vulnerable to it. So just be careful. Make sure in game the players have an opportunity (maybe via a video-replay of a combat with the villain) to see how powerful the weapon is BEFORE they come face to face with the antagonist. That way if they are careless and get their soul absorbed, its entirely on them because they knew what they were getting into.

Personally, if I was pitched in battle against someone with a soul absorbing weapon I would do EVERYTHING within my power to defeat them from beyond the range of said weapon (laser rifles, vehicles, etc.). Screw fighting them fair when they can suck out your soul!!!

dansimon30 wrote:Hi Guys,
ok so my GM is adding more and more Rune Weapons to our game and Im a bit concerned about the Soul Drinkers. I know what your going to say - Rune items are so rare that there should only be at most one lesser weapon in a game and in a hard to beat boss' hands at that.

well that isnt the case for me in this campaign and Im growing more and more concerned about loosing an armor spell - and on the next hit having to save vs soul drinking.

So far ive come up with the approach of having a regular armor, casting an amulet spell (Armor of Ithan ) and having a force field ( battle fury blade or Invulnerability - +10 vs magic ) or armor spell - or both up.

Does anyone else have an approach that ive missed? Something like - auto save vs soul drinking or something? or something like lifeward but against soul drinkers?

thanks for the help....

Dan

There's nothing that makes it easy to save. vs. soul drinking. Anything that boosts save vs. magic helps, but one botched roll and even Zeus would be dead.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

dansimon30 wrote:Hi Guys,
ok so my GM is adding more and more Rune Weapons to our game and Im a bit concerned about the Soul Drinkers. I know what your going to say - Rune items are so rare that there should only be at most one lesser weapon in a game and in a hard to beat boss' hands at that.

well that isnt the case for me in this campaign and Im growing more and more concerned about loosing an armor spell - and on the next hit having to save vs soul drinking.

So far ive come up with the approach of having a regular armor, casting an amulet spell (Armor of Ithan ) and having a force field ( battle fury blade or Invulnerability - +10 vs magic ) or armor spell - or both up.

Does anyone else have an approach that ive missed? Something like - auto save vs soul drinking or something? or something like lifeward but against soul drinkers?

thanks for the help....

Dan

There's nothing that makes it easy to save. vs. soul drinking. Anything that boosts save vs. magic helps, but one botched roll and even Zeus would be dead.

Yeah, apart from bonus to save vs. magic, armor and force fields, ther eis nothing else to do. Sould Drinking are not considered almost the ultimate weapon of Megaverse for nothing. The only sure defence is not being hit.

Remember to have big cans of gatorade its a thirst quencher.

bring a gun to a knife-fight. better yet, bring lots of guns (and ideally, friends to use them) to a knife-fight.

i have found that the typical pile of ash is unable to wield rune weapons of any kind (YMMV, however).

alternately, if avoiding melee combat (by shooting people before they can get close enough) is not an option, just look for things that grant you superior chances to avoid getting hit. bonuses to parry, force fields, etc. also, you may find summoned minions to be of assistance here (provided you're not too picky about what happens to them, that is).

Have you tried negotiating?

The Beast wrote:Have you tried negotiating?

in my experience, the average pile of ash is also not very good at negotiating ^^

Having stacks of armor handy will help, as was your plan. There's a N.G. light suit of armor from Merc Ops you can wear underneath regular armor. There's also tech force-fields and magical force fields - keep each at the ready so that when one drops, the other can be activated. Soul Drinkers are "typically" limited to 1D6 souls per day so minions or other fodder could be a good idea for dealing with them. Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net are two good standby's for mitigating the problem as well. There's a spell somewhere to let a caster take control of a body part of an enemy (Traitorous Hand, I think it's called) - turn his own weapon against him, literally!

Actually, Disarm might be a viable strategy if you're forced to melee against such a foe - maybe it's time to study up and understand those rules. I think there's a Warlock spell to encase a weapon in Earth or Ice, there's another way to mitigate the situation. Are Rune Weapons suppressed in an Anti-Magic Cloud? What about Metamorphosis: Superior - shift into a Crystal/Rock Alien from Aliens Unlimited - they have no blood, and should (based on the flavor text) be immune to soul drinking.

Umm... give your soul to something else first?

best defense s to be a ginger......they have no souls reportedly

Just make sure you are protected enough to not be cut and make disarming or entangling the guy with the weapon top priority. A soul Drinker is only a Soul Drinker if it can hit you.

I am shocked that no one has mentioned this yet. Just.. Make.. Your.. Character... A... Ginger..

http://www.trolino.com/image?id=34988

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/1b8/616/a5 ... 2a0c1b.jpg

I'm kidding, I got nothing. Other than Run the F#$% AWAY I can't tell you how to not get your soul drank.

Always the pure robot option, and likely very difficult to impossible to soul drink a full conversion cyborg.

The spell Featherlight makes a weapon "useless" - that may work. A successful Reality Flux spell against the weapon will make it inflict S.D instead of M.D., so you'd only have to be concerned if the enemy has a high supernatural strength (which I know they will, I'm just throwing this option out for the sake of others).

dansimon30 wrote:Hi Guys,
ok so my GM is adding more and more Rune Weapons to our game and Im a bit concerned about the Soul Drinkers. I know what your going to say - Rune items are so rare that there should only be at most one lesser weapon in a game and in a hard to beat boss' hands at that.

well that isnt the case for me in this campaign and Im growing more and more concerned about loosing an armor spell - and on the next hit having to save vs soul drinking.

So far ive come up with the approach of having a regular armor, casting an amulet spell (Armor of Ithan ) and having a force field ( battle fury blade or Invulnerability - +10 vs magic ) or armor spell - or both up.

Does anyone else have an approach that ive missed? Something like - auto save vs soul drinking or something? or something like lifeward but against soul drinkers?

thanks for the help....

Dan

As others have said plus some more:
-Save Vs Magic improvements
-Range attacks are your friend here (so buffs to keep out of reach also help)
-some melee actions can also be useful: Parry, Disarm, Entangle, Pins, and DODGE (this last one works both ways, make the wielder DODGE)
-Cyber-Armor (acts as another layer of armor, it has an AR though)
-there's the non-human route ('bot, borg, metamorphosis)
-Blinding Flash, Cloud of Smoke, and other sensory impairment spells may also be useful (as they can impose penalties making melee actions easier and less likely they are going to hit)
-Gravity alterations (make something on them lighter or heavier to alter their movement rate, it doesn't have to be the Rune Item itself)
-similar to gravity, but if the wielders have any ferrous metal on them, use a giant electromagnetic to pin them
-Traps and Pits can slow them down
-Explosives (Claymores, Mines, missiles)
-Teleport (it takes 2 hits to drink a soul, so after 1st one time to teleport away) either by Spell, Ability, or TW/Magic item.

I'm pretty sure deities and alien intelligences are immune to soul drinkers... maybe that info is in Dragons and Deities?
In any event it requires cutting the subject, so odds are in an MD setting an SDC person is dead from getting hit anyway...
As for the idea of bringing guns... it depends on what you bring. An energy weapon will be parried at -6 from the usual bonus (a rune weapon being one of a very few weapons that can do this), a rail gun wouldn't... but if a player came up to me with a rail gun that they don't normally use to fight someone with any rune weapon, I'd ask where their character got the knowledge that the person with the rune weapon can parry their usual energy weapon and not the rail gun.
Omniscient PCs are disallowed in my games... I certainly don't use omniscient NPCs, so fair is fair.

Vrykolas2k wrote:I'm pretty sure deities and alien intelligences are immune to soul drinkers... maybe that info is in Dragons and Deities?

No, they only get +3 to save.

What's funny is how this came to be. I created this "Rune Weapon Prison" for all of these crazy "Godslayer" Swords left-over from the Elf-Dwarf War in Palladium Fantasy. Right? All these crazy powerful weapons -- kinsmen sacrificed their souls to become weapons and used to fight the opposition -- imprisoned for thousands of years because they were deemed too powerful and too dangerous.

Alas, the Players made some decisions without fully thinking through the consequences of their actions. Things happened. Deevils deviously capitalized on a tricky situation. Some spur-of-the-moment crazy battle stuff got flung around. NECROM WAS UNLEASHED!!! The **** was definitely hitting the fan and I think we had an incredibly action-packed scene that was adrenaline-pumping and fun and DANGEROUS!

And...

Some deevils got their grubby little mitts on some powerful rune weapons. The PCs made out like bandits with Soul Drinkers of their own...but a NameSeeker Squad and a Regent or two got a hold of some badass rune weapons and now...well, now this thread has 18 responses. Heheheh!

When the PCs have Soul Drinkers everything is honkie-dorrie. When the NPCs have Soul Drinkers we need to start posting on the boards. LOL!

Thanks for the responses folks.

Brent

4shadow wrote:In before someone mentions Temporol Raiders.

Edit (after a wee look at the magic book).

Lesser:paralysis on the opponents sword arm. Can't swing it if his arm is floppin uselessly at his side.

Hire a bunch of goons to help absorb the fight, sould drinker can only absorb 1D6 souls a day. After that its a regular rune weapon.

They don't drink souls unless the user tells it to. It can just kill the goons normally without using up any of it's charges.

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:I am shocked that no one has mentioned this yet. Just.. Make.. Your.. Character... A... Ginger..

http://www.trolino.com/image?id=34988

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/1b8/616/a5 ... 2a0c1b.jpg

I'm kidding, I got nothing. Other than Run the F#$% AWAY I can't tell you how to not get your soul drank.

i did mention it previously just look 2 posts up.

Buy some Triax Dyna-bots.

Lots of Dyna-bots.

I think you just find out where these guys are and find a way to sick the CS on them, make it their problem. It isn't like they'll USE any of the souldrinking weapons they capture. They'll just end up in a vault in some secret location and suddenly they're nobody's problem...

Assuming they win.

Claim your character is a Ginger and comes with built in immunity to soul attacks

Glistam wrote:Having stacks of armor handy will help, as was your plan. There's a N.G. light suit of armor from Merc Ops you can wear underneath regular armor. There's also tech force-fields and magical force fields - keep each at the ready so that when one drops, the other can be activated. Soul Drinkers are "typically" limited to 1D6 souls per day so minions or other fodder could be a good idea for dealing with them. Carpet of Adhesion and Magic Net are two good standby's for mitigating the problem as well. There's a spell somewhere to let a caster take control of a body part of an enemy (Traitorous Hand, I think it's called) - turn his own weapon against him, literally!

Actually, Disarm might be a viable strategy if you're forced to melee against such a foe - maybe it's time to study up and understand those rules. I think there's a Warlock spell to encase a weapon in Earth or Ice, there's another way to mitigate the situation. Are Rune Weapons suppressed in an Anti-Magic Cloud? What about Metamorphosis: Superior - shift into a Crystal/Rock Alien from Aliens Unlimited - they have no blood, and should (based on the flavor text) be immune to soul drinking.

I totally threw a monkey wrench into my GM's plan when I got thrown against a BIG BAD with a VERY nasty soul drinker. He expected me to run away to the tank pc's since I am a pure mage class. I declared my action as disarm and rolled a natural 20! I grabbed his sword and proceeded to run away to the rest of the party.

It's all fun and games until somebody loses a soul...

Nightmask wrote:Always the pure robot option, and likely very difficult to impossible to soul drink a full conversion cyborg.

The Cold Blooded augmentation would do the trick too if you like a little more flesh in your augmentation.

Nightmask wrote:Always the pure robot option, and likely very difficult to impossible to soul drink a full conversion cyborg.

I see your pure robot and raise you the NGR's experimental programs in remote piloting.

Akashic Soldier wrote: Personally, if I was pitched in battle against someone with a soul absorbing weapon I would do EVERYTHING within my power to defeat them from beyond the range of said weapon (laser rifles, vehicles, etc.). Screw fighting them fair when they can suck out your soul!!!

That is the key!!

Glistam wrote:It's all fun and games until somebody loses a soul...

Of course a major question is: how would you have any reason to even know the person HAS a soul-drinking weapon?

Nightmask wrote:Of course a major question is: how would you have any reason to even know the person HAS a soul-drinking weapon?

Because you accidentally gave it to them.

Getting +save vs magic is way easier than getting +spell strength. Unless natural 1s mean auto-fail for saving throws now (isn't that just strike rolls?) then you just need a +13 or thereabouts.

Tor wrote:Getting +save vs magic is way easier than getting +spell strength. Unless natural 1s mean auto-fail for saving throws now (isn't that just strike rolls?) then you just need a +13 or thereabouts.

The save against soul drinking is a 14 or better.

The Beast wrote:

Tor wrote:Getting +save vs magic is way easier than getting +spell strength. Unless natural 1s mean auto-fail for saving throws now (isn't that just strike rolls?) then you just need a +13 or thereabouts.

The save against soul drinking is a 14 or better.

that's his point. he's saying that if a 1 is not an automatic failure (i'm not sure if it is or not), then +13 to save will guarantee you don't fail (barring further penalties), since 1 + 13 is 14, which falls into the "14 or better" range.

Though the downside to that is you still have the whole "automatically take double damage to HP or triple damage to MDC" stuff drinkers have.

Though that only counts if they spill blood, I think.

I'd like to find out some rules on whether or not weapons spill blood. I feel like getting cut wouldn't always do it if you were really tough.

Whether or not it's canon, in the game the OP is talking about saving throws automatically fail on a natural 1, and automatically succeed on a natural 20.

Shark_Force wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Tor wrote:Getting +save vs magic is way easier than getting +spell strength. Unless natural 1s mean auto-fail for saving throws now (isn't that just strike rolls?) then you just need a +13 or thereabouts.

The save against soul drinking is a 14 or better.

that's his point. he's saying that if a 1 is not an automatic failure (i'm not sure if it is or not), then +13 to save will guarantee you don't fail (barring further penalties), since 1 + 13 is 14, which falls into the "14 or better" range.

A 1 is always a fail.

I know that natural 20s are auto-successes and natural 1s are auto-fails for SOME rolls, but I'm not clear on whether this applies to all rolls. What is the key statement we should be looking for here?

I'm looking at the combat section in page 339 of RUE and not seeing the 'natural 1' bit even there, when that's surely what I thought it applied to.

I take it this natural 1 stuff is hidden somewhere inconvenient?

I wonder if there's any super powers which would be good in this situation?

Intangibility can be nice, since you can't be cut, since physical attacks can't touch you.

APS could also be nice, since a lot of altered forms presumably do not have blood, so there's nothing to draw until you're reverted to your normal form.

Weight Manipulation could also be helpful since you could make a rune weapon too heavy to swing.

Super TK and some leeway from the GM to use a disarm roll?

Magically modify your soul to become the Rune Weapon equivalent of malware. Someone's dumb enough to soul-drink you and you root their Rune Weapon and turn it against them. Job done.

Well if we're wandering outside the rules now then I choose to modify my soul into a god who instead eats the rune weapon and every other rune item and gains all their powers.

Make it so that your opponent does not want to hit you.

You can take both the porcupine and scorched earth methods.

There is equipment (and I'm sure some spells) that deal your attacker damage when they hit you.
You can also get a cybernetic dead-man's switch installed (a mage can afford a minor augmentation without adverse effects to their magic) and linked to an external bomb.

Another option is figuring out how to remove magic from the equation; I am not 'hip' to magic in Rifts, preferring to play technological characters instead, but are there any kinds of anti-magic spells or armours that exist? That may be a viable path to take.

I don`t think even an anti-magic-cloud would remove a rune weapon`s souldrinking ability. Could be wrong though. Anyone recall any refs to AMC and rune interaction

Tor wrote:I don`t think even an anti-magic-cloud would remove a rune weapon`s souldrinking ability. Could be wrong though. Anyone recall any refs to AMC and rune interaction

I only really know D&D (2nd Ed. and 3.x)'s version of anti-magic, so I'm in the dark as to the final ruling regarding this as well; I just figured it was worth mentioning.

finn69 wrote:best defense s to be a ginger......they have no souls reportedly

Not true, we often have dozens of souls. We take them from the unwary...


That being said, how much of a problem can this actually be in RIFTS? For a Soul Drinker to actually take your soul, it MUST draw your blood. Now, assuming this is a combat situation and you are not being tied down and lightly cut, this means that someone has to hit you and hurt you with their sword. Their MD sword! It can't hit your armour or anything, it has to hit your skin and cut you until you bleed, meaning it has to do damage, a minimum of 1MD, which likely KILLS most characters. If you cleanly hit MOST characters with a sword that does MD, soul drinker or not, it's going to kill them, and as a Soul Drinker likely does between 4-10MD minimum, which is HUNDREDS of SDC, enough to destroy a car(!) it hardly seems an issue.

Bring in a Psi-Nullifier, or better yet a Nega-Psychic. I'd roll up this PC just for the purpose of either:

A) Stealing the said rune weapon, or

B) If theft of the item (without combat) is impossible, at least have this PC sabotage the entire area while they are inside.

You could garner this character with demolitions skills, or just being an extra sneaky form of saboteur that goes in solo, wires the place, and tries to create as much havoc as possible. Granting him a TW Teleport item, say in the form of wrist watch or iPod, would be appropriate as a means of escape if things go totally pear-shaped. Also, think about the use of drones (naruni makes some superb drones), to do your handiwork for you; send a few in, make one or two invisible with appropriate spells, then snatch the sword and activate TW Teleport device installed on the drone.

This would be a thinking man's game; a frontal assault against a rune weapon wielding enemy is not going to end well, unless the party has ridiculous firepower like rockets, bombs and anti-tank weaponry.

Along the lines of 'you have to bleed to get drained' it made me wonder about ways to avoid souldrinking.

Presumably any of the inorganic APS powers in CB1/HU could involve this. Can' draw the blood of a metal man, after all.

Was going to say something about vampires not bleeding except from the heart, but much like they're immune to being Xombies I imagine the lack of soul (where was this written about again? Revised VK? Was soullessness written about prior to that for vamps?) would make them immune to souldrinkers as well.

It does make me wonder though: if you're inherently immune to souldrinking due to the lack of soul, you probably wouldn't have to make a magic save at all, so would you still take the double/triple damage in that case, if your blood is drawn, if there was never any risk of losing it?

I always figured the damage multiplier was because the weapon started drawing out your soul but failed to do so, but the process of fighting it off was really hurtful. I'm left imagining what happened between a couple older ninja in Naruto during the chuunin exam.

Anyway, getting back to Rifts, wouldn't the "Cold-Blooded" RCC in Mercenary Adventures (Adventure Sourcebook 5) be immune since the potion concoction nicknamed "cold-blood" (not actually blood, presumably, and if it were, not the character's) replaces all of the character's blood? You can cut them, but only blue goo, not blood, to draw. (rereading the first page I see Giant suggested this)

Glistam wrote:The spell Featherlight makes a weapon "useless" - that may work. A successful Reality Flux spell against the weapon will make it inflict S.D instead of M.D., so you'd only have to be concerned if the enemy has a high supernatural strength (which I know they will, I'm just throwing this option out for the sake of others).

What book're Featherlight'n Reality Flux originally from again?

ShadowLogan wrote:there's the non-human route ('bot, borg, metamorphosis)

More like the non-flesh route than the non-human route.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Teleport (it takes 2 hits to drink a soul, so after 1st one time to teleport away) either by Spell, Ability, or TW/Magic item.

Where's this part about it taking 2 hits? Sure you're not thinking of some kinds of death blows?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Vrykolas2k wrote:I'm pretty sure deities and alien intelligences are immune to soul drinkers... maybe that info is in Dragons and Deities?

No, they only get +3 to save.

Just wondering, where is the +3 listed?

This previous thread http://www.palladium-megaverse.com/foru ... 8&t=134980 seems to imply some immunities...

1. Great Old Ones -- are immune to soul drinking.
2. Alien Intelligence's (like the Lord of the Deep and Apsu of the Abyss), Deities that can be considered as Supreme Beings of their pantheons, and Splugorth -- can easily resist souldrinking because of their power level, but can be affected by continuous attacks.
3. Supernatural Intelligence's (such as Modeus, Mictla, Mephisto), major Deities, and Death (of the Four Horsemen) -- can resist soul drinking with some effort but can be affected by repeated attacks.
4. Vampire Intelligence's, Apocalypse Demons (excluding Death), minor Deities, and ancient dragons -- subject to soul drinking but will have a number of pluses to save (the bonus will vary the power level of the entity).

So the only utterly immune are the GOO. Everything else can be drunk. Categories 2 and 3 presumably take at least 2 hits. The 'number of pluses to save' would probably just be the save vs magic all the category 4 guys would have.

We could just say for category 3: "has to fail 2 saves in 3 minutes" and for category 2: "has to fail 3 saves in 2 minutes". Dunno.

Nightmask wrote:how would you have any reason to even know the person HAS a soul-drinking weapon?

Probably some traumatic event like this happened to the player's loved one before their eyes, revealing the villain's cruel and deadly power.

Rappanui wrote:Heads of pantheons and death gods are immune to soul drinking, so are Dragon Gods. so Zeus and hades arent' vulnerable to it, but the rest sure are.

I assume you mean among the Greeks. Convenient for Hades Aidoneous since he is one of the few guys in CB2 who actually HAS a soul-drinker. What about Charon? Cerberus? What if Persephone ever gets statted?

Eashamahel wrote:how much of a problem can this actually be in RIFTS? For a Soul Drinker to actually take your soul, it MUST draw your blood. Now, assuming this is a combat situation and you are not being tied down and lightly cut, this means that someone has to hit you and hurt you with their sword. Their MD sword! It can't hit your armour or anything, it has to hit your skin and cut you until you bleed, meaning it has to do damage, a minimum of 1MD, which likely KILLS most characters.

Implying most Rifts characters would still be SDC. Skeptical of this.

It is still a problem though. If an SDC character is killed by an MD weapon they can still be either potentially resurrected or reincarnated. Neither is possible if your soul is imprisoned in a rune weapon, I would assume. There's also the new RUE rules which allow SDC characters to survive MD attacks (great idea) albeit with grave injuries that require a major hospital (and probably cyborg conversion) to save them.

Also keep in mind that even for SDC characters there are ways to become temporarily MDC. This was added to Psi-Stalkers in RUE, and there's a spell available which can be placed on armor that makes SDC characters into MDC for a couple minutes after their armor gets destroyed.

Rappanui wrote:Armageddon unlimited has relaxed the rules on soul eaters and has added weapons that can retrieve the lost souls

Dyval has something along these lines, it says that if a soul pool grabs someone and eats them (trapping their soul in the pool) if you jam a soul-drinker into the pool it can suck out the soul and then (after keeping it in the weapon a while) deposit the soul into a new body.

That seems to imply that if a rune weapon drinks a soul, you can convince it (probably easier if you'r the owner) to give it up. Though some might be reluctant to do that, we must never forget that rune weapons are sentient. Perhaps it might only give up a tasty soul if you promise to give it a couple more new ones to chew on? It gets lonely in there.

Tor wrote:
Implying most Rifts characters would still be SDC. Skeptical of this.

I hold out hope I realize it's unlikely, but it's there.

Tor wrote:It is still a problem though. If an SDC character is killed by an MD weapon they can still be either potentially resurrected or reincarnated. Neither is possible if your soul is imprisoned in a rune weapon, I would assume. There's also the new RUE rules which allow SDC characters to survive MD attacks (great idea) albeit with grave injuries that require a major hospital (and probably cyborg conversion) to save them.

That's true, and the old 'arm cut clean off' idea has worked in RIFTS for a long time. That being said, games where the big concern is whether or not the character can be succesfully reincarnated or resurrected are a bit out of my league.

Tor wrote:Also keep in mind that even for SDC characters there are ways to become temporarily MDC. This was added to Psi-Stalkers in RUE,

Please don't remind me! I like to try and surpress that at all opportunities...

Tor wrote:and there's a spell available which can be placed on armor that makes SDC characters into MDC for a couple minutes after their armor gets destroyed.

There's also the spell that makes you giant sized which I believe would still allow you to bleed despite being an MDC being, and a few others.


As to the Vampires with no souls, that would probably have to be a Revised edition thing, as I have no memory of it in the original book, unless it's used as a characterful description, ie 'the villagers are fearful of the soulless monsters'. Infact, the mention of Psi-Stalkers and Dog Boys hunting Vampires and being GOOD at hunting Vampires partially because of the doubling PPE at the moment of true death would lead me to believe the exact opposite. Also, if this actually IS in the new Revised book, don't tell me , it takes away a great deal of the true horror of people becoming undead if they are just 'evil badguys' in some humans old body.