PairedWP simultaneous attack vs Parry/Strike vs Strike/Parry

[Tor]

Combination Parry/Attack is described in the Combination Moves section of N&SS page 128. It inherently says no strike/damage bonuses allowed for the Attack, and the note for Parries also excludes using that bonus.

Strike/Parry, though included as a technique in arts like Zanji Shijinken-Ryu (pg 113) wasn't actually defined in the combat section until Mystic China's expanded Combination Moves section (pg 167) and I've always been fuzzy on its mechanics (it provides an auto-parry against 1 opponent you hit, lasting 1 melee) as I can only see it being a useful technique for those who lack auto-parry, yet I'm not aware of any arts that provide this technique yet lack auto-parry.

What I'm wondering, is when paired WP (N&SS pg 131-132) says "can strike and parry simultaneously" if this refers to the use of Parry/Strike or Strike/Parry and the resulting nullification of parrying bonuses?

Or is it a superior option which keeps the bonuses intact?

Would the paired "strike and parry" allow someone to, in reaction to an attack, launch a (normally) unavoidable simultaneous-strike while retaining an auto-parry? Would this retention of auto-parry by those making simultaneous attacks also be a hidden benefit of those using the Strike/Parry technique?

Would it also allow someone making an attack, if they are simultaneously attacked while doing so, to make their parry regardless, even though they normally lose it? Is this also a benefit to Strike/Parry?

What I'm also wondering is: does Strike/Parry basically allow (versus the 1 opponent they target, as opposed to ALL enemies, like with paired WP) the benefits of simultaneous strike/parry like paired WP does, except it also applies if unarmed or using a single weapon?

Would there be any benefits to having the Strike/Parry technique if you have paired WP too? All I can figure is if you get disarmed.

Is there any benefit at all to having a Parry/Strike technique if you have paired WP? It seems wholely inferior. The defensive combination moves (doesn't include grab/kick, which is awesome and effective, presumably grab/slash also works this way) pretty much suck due to losing bonuses, so they would only seem useful if you lacked a lot of bonuses to begin with, or if you're against opponents who don't have much in the way of bonuses and might even have negative ones due to penalties from stuff like blindness or whatever.

Also wondering: with Zanji guys having both Strike/Parry and Grab/Slash, for normal 2-armed people, how would this work? Presumably it would not be useable with paired WP, and you would need 1 hand free (no weapon) to grab with, while you slash with the other arm.

Firstly, since grab/kick involves grabbing with TWO arms, I'm wondering if Grab/Slash should (normally) be inferior. Like perhaps it should only boost damage by 50% instead of by 100%?

Secondly, if you in your first attack launched a successful strike/parry, and then on your second, launched a successful grab/kick during which you were simultaneously attacked, if we assume S/P allows retention of auto-parry in face of simultaneous attacks (otherwise, what purpose does it serve to all these arts with inherent auto/parry?), would this apply during a grab/slash? If 1 hand is grabbing and the 2nd hand is slashing, are they still able to parry somehow?

I figure possibly because it is possible to parry with legs (I think the Wormwood Monks and Oni Ninja have that, though it is a special ability) and it might be possible to parry WHILE slashing (for example, you slash a guy's arm whilst parrying a punch from that arm using that sword).

[Nekira Sudacne]

Combination Parry/Attack is described in the Combination Moves section of N&SS page 128. It inherently says no strike/damage bonuses allowed for the Attack, and the note for Parries also excludes using that bonus.

Strike/Parry, though included as a technique in arts like Zanji Shijinken-Ryu (pg 113) wasn't actually defined in the combat section until Mystic China's expanded Combination Moves section (pg 167) and I've always been fuzzy on its mechanics (it provides an auto-parry against 1 opponent you hit, lasting 1 melee) as I can only see it being a useful technique for those who lack auto-parry, yet I'm not aware of any arts that provide this technique yet lack auto-parry.

What I'm wondering, is when paired WP (N&SS pg 131-132) says "can strike and parry simultaneously" if this refers to the use of Parry/Strike or Strike/Parry and the resulting nullification of parrying bonuses?

Or is it a superior option which keeps the bonuses intact?

I think it's palladium tacking on new mechanics while not clarifying the differention from old ones.

Paried weapons has always allowed you to strike and parry in all palladium games: specifically it allows you to simultaniously strike when attacked with one weapon, and parry with the other. so while normally a simultanious attack means neither can defend, if one has paired weapons and the other one dosn't, the one with paired weapons can declare a simultanious attack and parry with his other weapon, or can parry if the guy with one weapon simultaniously attacks in response to an attack, provided he only declared an attack with one.

It also has another issue wherein if you attack with both weapons at once, you lose your automatic parry, because you are off-balance.

Zanji, being a two-weapon martial art style (Katana and wakazashi specifically), appears to have a specal ability that allows it to attack with both weapons yet declare one opponent aginst which they retain an automatic parry.

[Tor]

Still doesn't explain the grab-slash dilemma, makes me think Zanji would only be fully usable with some 4-armed cyborg samurai, or else you can apparently strike/parry with the same weapon or grab/parry with the same arm.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Still doesn't explain the grab-slash dilemma, makes me think Zanji would only be fully usable with some 4-armed cyborg samurai, or else you can apparently strike/parry with the same weapon or grab/parry with the same arm.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The martial art clearly says that two-armed beings can do it, thus, the style makes them capable of it. The means by which they do this are whatever best suits your imagination.

personally, I picture it as them only holding the blade with their thumb thumb and pressing the hilt to the arm while their fingers hold and pin it with one hand, the other slashes.

[Alrik Vas]

Combination grab/slash is awesome because it's a critical hit with a katana. Super. Baller. Move.

It's done with one hand doing the grabbing, pulling your opponent off balance and then joining both hands for the cut, usually hitting them full across the back as they stumble past you.

Sometimes it's done as a throw with a stab follow-through (you can shoulder/hip throw while using paired weapons, the motion doesn't actually require hands free).

Another method would be to grab your opponent's clothing from the front, pressing in with footwork to get a leg behind theirs, twisting and sending them to the ground over your leg and cutting up through their side as they hit the ground.

All three are messy and tricky, hence the lack of modifiers. The damage tho...scary stuff.

With regards to parry/attack and attack/parry, i think Nekira is right.

[Tor]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The martial art clearly says that two-armed beings can do it, thus, the style makes them capable of it.

Yeah, although the style doesn't mention being able to Grab/Slash while using paired WP (even though they can get this as a WP kata) so presumably you can't benefit from paired WP techs whilst using the Grab/Slash combo.

Ignoring that it's still hard to picture how an auto-parry (normally you don't get one while attacking with a single weapon, but presumably strike/parry allows you to, or else what does it do?) is done while doing grab/slash since it's a move where both limbs are occupied.

Then again, looking at it simpler and ignoring grab/slash... with just normal single-katana swings, how does it work being able to auto-parry during a simultaneous attack with a single weapon? Would you be forced to parry with your free hand? Or do you parry and strike with the same blade in a single movement?

I picture it as them only holding the blade with their thumb thumb and pressing the hilt to the arm while their fingers hold and pin it with one hand, the other slashes.

Having trouble picturing this.

Combination grab/slash is awesome because it's a critical hit with a katana. Super. Baller. Move.

It's done with one hand doing the grabbing, pulling your opponent off balance and then joining both hands for the cut, usually hitting them full across the back as they stumble past you.

Sometimes it's done as a throw with a stab follow-through (you can shoulder/hip throw while using paired weapons, the motion doesn't actually require hands free).

Another method would be to grab your opponent's clothing from the front, pressing in with footwork to get a leg behind theirs, twisting and sending them to the ground over your leg and cutting up through their side as they hit the ground.

Your explanation is interesting. I didn't picture at all the concept of grabbing and letting go THEN striking in a single movement...

probably because with grab/kick you're still keeping the grab in place WHILE kicking, so I figured it operated the same way.

Sort of throwing the guy after the grab would certainly explain (via building up momentum) how you could still double the damage in spite of only pulling with 1 arm, especially if you can then use that arm to do a 2-handed strike.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think you are looking at it the wrong way. The martial art clearly says that two-armed beings can do it, thus, the style makes them capable of it.

Yeah, although the style doesn't mention being able to Grab/Slash while using paired WP (even though they can get this as a WP kata) so presumably you can't benefit from paired WP techs whilst using the Grab/Slash combo.

Except a kata automatically give the same effects as their WP for free without taking it seperately, so a paired kata can do everything W.P. paired weapons can do, while using that particular combo discribed.

Ignoring that it's still hard to picture how an auto-parry (normally you don't get one while attacking with a single weapon, but presumably strike/parry allows you to, or else what does it do?) is done while doing grab/slash since it's a move where both limbs are occupied.

I'm having a bit of trouble picturing how a tai-chi master can put his hand on a sherman tank and cause it to shake itself to peices. I don't doubt that by the game they can do it, provided they take the appoprotie ability.

[Tor]

I guess we have to use our imagination a bit in regard to how stuff works with katas. I mean... maybe you CAN be wielding a pair of Daisho and only hold the handles with your thumbs while having your fingers open to grab an opponent, pull them towards you, and then let go and clasp the hands shut and slash... *shrug*

Picturing vibrating a tank to pieces is easy, this is more a 'wacky powers' issue than a 'there's only so many limbs to do stuff with' situation.

[Alrik Vas]

If you are dual wielding, i believe this is the answer. Instead of dealing the damage of the body throw while doing sword damage, you're just doubling sword damage to represent the entire maneuver.

Sometimes it's done as a throw with a stab follow-through (you can shoulder/hip throw while using paired weapons, the motion doesn't actually require hands free).

It's about footwork and slipping your arm into the crook of theirs. Not too tough to do if you're in-practice and you catch your opponent off balance.