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i was wondering if a wizard or magic user would be able to still use it if they go Bionic or genetic work done . or even the host armor from splicer

By canon rules once a Spellcaster, or Psion, hits at least Partial Borg Status, they loose their Magic capabilities. Typically, the more cybernetics/bionics you get, the less skill in magic you have.

However, there are some non-canon sources that do allow Magic/Psionic powers to continue with cybernetic use.

As for genetic work or 'host armor' (haven't read Splicers yet so dunno) that might be okay, kind of like how you can get bio-wizardry without it hurting your magic.

Though I'm not sure if that applies to full bio-borgs ala Splynn Dimensional Market.

what about cloned body parts

oger333 wrote:what about cloned body parts

Pretty much all the Magic O.C.C.s say this:

Cybernetics: Starts with none and will avoid getting any cybernetic or other forms of physical augmentation because it interferes with magic. However, cybernetic prosthetics will he considered should they become necessary.

(Bolding mine). But Cloned Body Parts are included.

If its replacing Internal Organs, due to Injury or Disease, and/or a missing hand or foot, then and only then would a Spellcaster of Psion consider getting cybernetics. Even then their Spellcasting and Psionic abilities are hampered.

Bio-Wizardry like Tor mention, is a completely different ballgame, and I recommend looking for a Copy of Rifts: Atlantis, or Atlantis 2.

Not seeing how cloned parts would be included, since they're natural organic replacements of existing body parts. Just like we see nothing about getting organ transplants interfering with PPE or spell-casting because it wouldn't have an impact on things. The living bio-armor of Splicers since it isn't mechanical shouldn't be a problem either (just like the living bio-armor that Biomancers can give you don't cause any problems for spell-casters).

I agree, Nightmask. Cloned body parts wouldn't interfere with magic or psionics.

Brayon wrote:

oger333 wrote:what about cloned body parts

Pretty much all the Magic O.C.C.s say this:

Cybernetics: Starts with none and will avoid getting any cybernetic or other forms of physical augmentation because it interferes with magic. However, cybernetic prosthetics will he considered should they become necessary.

(Bolding mine). But Cloned Body Parts are included.

If its replacing Internal Organs, due to Injury or Disease, and/or a missing hand or foot, then and only then would a Spellcaster of Psion consider getting cybernetics. Even then their Spellcasting and Psionic abilities are hampered.

Bio-Wizardry like Tor mention, is a completely different ballgame, and I recommend looking for a Copy of Rifts: Atlantis, or Atlantis 2.

Doesn't the section on cybernetics and magic users go on to talk about biologic replacements (and I can't for the life of me think of the name) and how if the magic user needed a replacement limb they would strive to get those because they don't interfere with magic? I'll check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure if you keep reading, the rest of the text contradicts what you are saying here.

oger333 wrote:i was wondering if a wizard or magic user would be able to still use it if they go Bionic or genetic work done . or even the host armor from splicer

Bionics: up to a point there would be penalties, then No magic.
Eugenic modifications: *shrugs* I do not know of any text that cover this. Therefor, GM choice
Splicer Host Armor: *shrugs* I do not know of any text that cover this. Therefor, GM choice

Cloned or bio-system replacement limbs do not interfere with magic.

There are ways for a mage to have Bionics without losing his abilities, they are just very rare and not something you should expect to get your hands on.
Salkind, the Metal Mage in Coalition Wars: final Siege has Bionics which don't hamper his abilities due to being made of a combination of alien alloys and ceramics. Whatever that alloy is would be required.
In theory, Bionics made of Gantrium would also not inhibit magical abilities as it has that same property when forged into armor, it makes sense that Bionics would share the trait. Salkind's stuff could very well be made of Gantrium for all we know.

I stand corrected on the cloned body parts.

Thank you, I've learned something new as well.

where is gantrium found in the palladium library?

Slight001 wrote:where is gantrium found in the palladium library?

PF: Northern Hinterlands mostly.
There is a tiny bit more info in Three Galaxies and the first Siege of Tolkeen Book.

plus TW or magical "bionic parts" would not interfere as well.

Rimmerdal wrote:plus TW or magical "bionic parts" would not interfere as well.

Which the only examples of are in the headhunter variants in the Rifts Canada book & reprinted in the RBoM.

Giant2005 wrote:

Slight001 wrote:where is gantrium found in the palladium library?

PF: Northern Hinterlands mostly.
There is a tiny bit more info in Three Galaxies and the first Siege of Tolkeen Book.

And a tiny bit in the Rifter Monster Competition winners issue int eh text about the absorber's home planet.

Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

13eowulf wrote:Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Unless there Cybernetic in some way...Nightmask is right. In rifts you can get genetically grown material and not have your Psionics or magic effected that bad.

Is that what Rifts will do in the long run or just the book writer taking liberties?

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

I never claimed it made sense, was just providing the only official word I was aware of regarding genetic manipulation and magic.

Then again I dont agree with the current Bionics rules as well.

That said I am on board with genetic enhancement/manipulation causing penalties for magic users, but I dont like the way they handled that here.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Unless there Cybernetic in some way...Nightmask is right. In rifts you can get genetically grown material and not have your Psionics or magic effected that bad.

Is that what Rifts will do in the long run or just the book writer taking liberties?

You can get cloned replacements without ill effect, it is if you get genetic manipulation/enhancement that the penalties kick in. Which, as a concept I can agree with. This implementation I don't necessarily agree with.

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Regarding getting genetic work done, I turned to Powers Unlimited 2, under the Eugenics power category, page 18

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Important Note: The acquisition of "human level" limbs and organs, cloned from the recipient's own body and used to replace lost and damaged parts has no negative effect on the recipient. Thus a spell caster, psychic or otherwise human hero can be healed and restored without complication.

Then it talks a but about superbeings and powers before it gets to this

Powers Unlimited 2 wrote:Even when the augmentation does work, the most genetic features a superhuman can receive is three. (Four or more causes super-powered, magical and psychic individuals to lose half of their attacks per melee round, and the range, damage, effects, and duration of all super abilities are also reduced by half.

It is the most I have seen on Genetic Engineering and its effects on Magic.

Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Unless there Cybernetic in some way...Nightmask is right. In rifts you can get genetically grown material and not have your Psionics or magic effected that bad.

Is that what Rifts will do in the long run or just the book writer taking liberties?

You can get cloned replacements without ill effect, it is if you get genetic manipulation/enhancement that the penalties kick in. Which, as a concept I can agree with. This implementation I don't necessarily agree with.

Which, again, makes no sense. Super-powers at the least are often the result of genetic manipulation or mutation due to exposure to some mutagenic event so it hardly makes sense that further manipulation would cause massive penalties. Psionics are also something someone can get as a result of genetic manipulation so again it makes no sense that getting genetic augmentation via Eugenics would inflict massive penalties, and magic is a learned thing that again it shouldn't matter if you get genetic augmentation or mutated it shouldn't see any penalties. It's especially baffling that you'd get slower (as implied by cutting the number of attacks/melee in half) even if your augmentations were about speeding you up.

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Unless there Cybernetic in some way...Nightmask is right. In rifts you can get genetically grown material and not have your Psionics or magic effected that bad.

Is that what Rifts will do in the long run or just the book writer taking liberties?

You can get cloned replacements without ill effect, it is if you get genetic manipulation/enhancement that the penalties kick in. Which, as a concept I can agree with. This implementation I don't necessarily agree with.

Which, again, makes no sense. Super-powers at the least are often the result of genetic manipulation or mutation due to exposure to some mutagenic event so it hardly makes sense that further manipulation would cause massive penalties. Psionics are also something someone can get as a result of genetic manipulation so again it makes no sense that getting genetic augmentation via Eugenics would inflict massive penalties, and magic is a learned thing that again it shouldn't matter if you get genetic augmentation or mutated it shouldn't see any penalties. It's especially baffling that you'd get slower (as implied by cutting the number of attacks/melee in half) even if your augmentations were about speeding you up.

I am gonna be quite specific here to avoid thread derailment: As this thread is all about the use of magic I have restricted my comments to that subject. When I said I agree with the concept of penalties for genetic manipulation I was referring to penalties for spell casters only. Not Psionics. Not Superpowers. Magic Users.
Further I have stated that I dont agree with the way penalties were implemented.
What I was doing with posting the quotes from the book was providing the location, and text, of official 'rules' regarding Genetic Manipulation and the use of magic.

As for penalties for magic from genetic augmentation, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that large scale artificial manipulation on a genetic level will interfere with the flow and control of one's PPE reserve.

Keep in mind that you are allowed three augmentation features. That can be the equivalent of three major super powers if chosen correctly, before any penalties. That is not a small amount of manipulation.

13eowulf wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Hmmm, that last part really doesn't make any sense. There's no reason that genetic augmentation should cause such penalties especially such draconian ones.

Unless there Cybernetic in some way...Nightmask is right. In rifts you can get genetically grown material and not have your Psionics or magic effected that bad.

Is that what Rifts will do in the long run or just the book writer taking liberties?

You can get cloned replacements without ill effect, it is if you get genetic manipulation/enhancement that the penalties kick in. Which, as a concept I can agree with. This implementation I don't necessarily agree with.

Which, again, makes no sense. Super-powers at the least are often the result of genetic manipulation or mutation due to exposure to some mutagenic event so it hardly makes sense that further manipulation would cause massive penalties. Psionics are also something someone can get as a result of genetic manipulation so again it makes no sense that getting genetic augmentation via Eugenics would inflict massive penalties, and magic is a learned thing that again it shouldn't matter if you get genetic augmentation or mutated it shouldn't see any penalties. It's especially baffling that you'd get slower (as implied by cutting the number of attacks/melee in half) even if your augmentations were about speeding you up.

I am gonna be quite specific here to avoid thread derailment: As this thread is all about the use of magic I have restricted my comments to that subject. When I said I agree with the concept of penalties for genetic manipulation I was referring to penalties for spell casters only. Not Psionics. Not Superpowers. Magic Users.
Further I have stated that I dont agree with the way penalties were implemented.
What I was doing with posting the quotes from the book was providing the location, and text, of official 'rules' regarding Genetic Manipulation and the use of magic.

As for penalties for magic from genetic augmentation, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that large scale artificial manipulation on a genetic level will interfere with the flow and control of one's PPE reserve.

Keep in mind that you are allowed three augmentation features. That can be the equivalent of three major super powers if chosen correctly, before any penalties. That is not a small amount of manipulation.

The flow of PPE via genetics would imply magic is a genetic feature...which according to Official rules is not the case. Though I agree it should be based on genetics...but officially it should have no influence on magic.

My initial thought is the writers were probably not in sync which does happen. Sounds like a question for Kevin.

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:I am gonna be quite specific here to avoid thread derailment: As this thread is all about the use of magic I have restricted my comments to that subject. When I said I agree with the concept of penalties for genetic manipulation I was referring to penalties for spell casters only. Not Psionics. Not Superpowers. Magic Users.
Further I have stated that I dont agree with the way penalties were implemented.
What I was doing with posting the quotes from the book was providing the location, and text, of official 'rules' regarding Genetic Manipulation and the use of magic.

As for penalties for magic from genetic augmentation, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that large scale artificial manipulation on a genetic level will interfere with the flow and control of one's PPE reserve.

Keep in mind that you are allowed three augmentation features. That can be the equivalent of three major super powers if chosen correctly, before any penalties. That is not a small amount of manipulation.

The flow of PPE via genetics would imply magic is a genetic feature...which according to Official rules is not the case. Though I agree it should be based on genetics...but officially it should have no influence on magic.

My initial thought is the writers were probably not in sync which does happen. Sounds like a question for Kevin.

Actually that is not what I said, nor meant, nor implied.
It has already been established that the presence of a significant or dominating amount artificial material in or around the spell caster, be it Plate Mail, or cybernetics/bionics, interferes with 'the flow of PPE'*. Further the amount inside the body needed to interfere with this is far less than the amount around our outside the body
To my mind artificial manipulation or enhancement of one's genetic material would similarly interfere with one's spell casting ability in a way that a natural mutation would not.

Genetic Manipulation/Engineering/Augmentation ≠ Natural Mutation.

* That particular phrase 'the flow of PPE' was a flavourful turn of phrase referring to someone's ability to cast spells, and nothing else.

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:I am gonna be quite specific here to avoid thread derailment: As this thread is all about the use of magic I have restricted my comments to that subject. When I said I agree with the concept of penalties for genetic manipulation I was referring to penalties for spell casters only. Not Psionics. Not Superpowers. Magic Users.
Further I have stated that I dont agree with the way penalties were implemented.
What I was doing with posting the quotes from the book was providing the location, and text, of official 'rules' regarding Genetic Manipulation and the use of magic.

As for penalties for magic from genetic augmentation, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that large scale artificial manipulation on a genetic level will interfere with the flow and control of one's PPE reserve.

Keep in mind that you are allowed three augmentation features. That can be the equivalent of three major super powers if chosen correctly, before any penalties. That is not a small amount of manipulation.

The flow of PPE via genetics would imply magic is a genetic feature...which according to Official rules is not the case. Though I agree it should be based on genetics...but officially it should have no influence on magic.

My initial thought is the writers were probably not in sync which does happen. Sounds like a question for Kevin.

Actually that is not what I said, nor meant, nor implied.
It has already been established that the presence of a significant or dominating amount artificial material in or around the spell caster, be it Plate Mail, or cybernetics/bionics, interferes with 'the flow of PPE'*. Further the amount inside the body needed to interfere with this is far less than the amount around our outside the body
To my mind artificial manipulation or enhancement of one's genetic material would similarly interfere with one's spell casting ability in a way that a natural mutation would not.

Genetic Manipulation/Engineering/Augmentation ≠ Natural Mutation.

* That particular phrase 'the flow of PPE' was a flavourful turn of phrase referring to someone's ability to cast spells, and nothing else.

And why would that matter? A gene changes why would it matter if it were natural or artificially changed? It's not like you can tell the difference.

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:I am gonna be quite specific here to avoid thread derailment: As this thread is all about the use of magic I have restricted my comments to that subject. When I said I agree with the concept of penalties for genetic manipulation I was referring to penalties for spell casters only. Not Psionics. Not Superpowers. Magic Users.
Further I have stated that I dont agree with the way penalties were implemented.
What I was doing with posting the quotes from the book was providing the location, and text, of official 'rules' regarding Genetic Manipulation and the use of magic.

As for penalties for magic from genetic augmentation, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that large scale artificial manipulation on a genetic level will interfere with the flow and control of one's PPE reserve.

Keep in mind that you are allowed three augmentation features. That can be the equivalent of three major super powers if chosen correctly, before any penalties. That is not a small amount of manipulation.

The flow of PPE via genetics would imply magic is a genetic feature...which according to Official rules is not the case. Though I agree it should be based on genetics...but officially it should have no influence on magic.

My initial thought is the writers were probably not in sync which does happen. Sounds like a question for Kevin.

Actually that is not what I said, nor meant, nor implied.
It has already been established that the presence of a significant or dominating amount artificial material in or around the spell caster, be it Plate Mail, or cybernetics/bionics, interferes with 'the flow of PPE'*. Further the amount inside the body needed to interfere with this is far less than the amount around our outside the body
To my mind artificial manipulation or enhancement of one's genetic material would similarly interfere with one's spell casting ability in a way that a natural mutation would not.

Genetic Manipulation/Engineering/Augmentation ≠ Natural Mutation.

* That particular phrase 'the flow of PPE' was a flavourful turn of phrase referring to someone's ability to cast spells, and nothing else.

And why would that matter? A gene changes why would it matter if it were natural or artificially changed? It's not like you can tell the difference.

Aside from the obvious "Nature would know" and the fun & flavourful "Magic would know"; there is in fact a great deal of difference between artificial and natural... well, anything. The first and foremost being that one is artificial, and the other is natural.

Although to be honest if one is gonna sit there straight faced and imply that there is no difference between the artificial and the natural of anything, then anything else I say will be a waste of time, because it only makes sense if one understands that there is a difference between things (like natural genetics) that are naturally occurring, and things (like manipulated genes) that are artificial. And since I havent the time nor the energy to engage in what will undoubtedly (given a review of past threads) turn out to be a lengthy and tiresome back and forth with no end in sight I will end it here.

13eowulf wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Actually that is not what I said, nor meant, nor implied.
It has already been established that the presence of a significant or dominating amount artificial material in or around the spell caster, be it Plate Mail, or cybernetics/bionics, interferes with 'the flow of PPE'*. Further the amount inside the body needed to interfere with this is far less than the amount around our outside the body
To my mind artificial manipulation or enhancement of one's genetic material would similarly interfere with one's spell casting ability in a way that a natural mutation would not.

Genetic Manipulation/Engineering/Augmentation ≠ Natural Mutation.

* That particular phrase 'the flow of PPE' was a flavourful turn of phrase referring to someone's ability to cast spells, and nothing else.

And why would that matter? A gene changes why would it matter if it were natural or artificially changed? It's not like you can tell the difference.

Aside from the obvious "Nature would know" and the fun & flavourful "Magic would know"; there is in fact a great deal of difference between artificial and natural... well, anything. The first and foremost being that one is artificial, and the other is natural.

Although to be honest if one is gonna sit there straight faced and imply that there is no difference between the artificial and the natural of anything, then anything else I say will be a waste of time, because it only makes sense if one understands that there is a difference between things (like natural genetics) that are naturally occurring, and things (like manipulated genes) that are artificial. And since I havent the time nor the energy to engage in what will undoubtedly (given a review of past threads) turn out to be a lengthy and tiresome back and forth with no end in sight I will end it here.

I'm not implying anything I'm stating it outright because it's true. If you think a naturally occurring sugar molecule is somehow different than an artificially created one then you don't really understand molecules (or DNA for that matter), there is literally nothing different between the two. Nature obviously isn't going to know there's a difference because there is no difference to know, they're identical in all ways and there's certainly nothing about magic where it exists as a sentient force to know or care (particularly since we're told it doesn't care about some mods) how someone's genetics were modified.

Frankly I'm amazed that you seem to seriously think how a molecule was created or a DNA strand modified matters or that somehow you could tell H2O that was created from a naturally occurring source of hydrogen apart from H2O created in a lab because you can't. There's nothing any less natural about the lab process than the non-lab process and nothing about it that would leave some way of telling them apart on what was created/modified.

I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

Congratulations, you are a super-taster. Welcome to the 15%.

torjones wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

Congratulations, you are a super-taster. Welcome to the 15%.

you think you are being facetious...
But anyone who has had a wide and varied diet will be able to do the same.

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

So apparently you think you've the ability to taste the difference between two identical molecules based on being able to notice differences in taste between a complex mix of molecules in food items when even identical food items grown in nature can taste differently because of things like soil differences and the fact the seeds themselves aren't genetically identical? Epic fail there with that fallacy, not the least of which using the 'overgeneralizing from personal experience' fallacy and being confused regarding what your personal experience actually represents.

Sorry but you just don't know what a fact is here, and it's a fact you're not going to tell the difference between identical molecules because they're identical. They possess no traits to differentiate between them based on the process that created them. Just as you can't use DNA testing to tell identical twins apart because you can't, their DNA is identical, the only way you might tell them apart is based on individual scars or other features (like different trace elements in their bodies).

It could be the difference is the "human factor", that humans haven't reached a point of being able to truly duplicate the human genome. I'm recalling those studies where they tried genetic manipulation on kids with a disease causing no immune system. The bulk of the kids gained something of an immune system...and leukemia. The genetic manipulation just wasn't good enough.

So maybe the books are saying that when someone's DNA is tinkered with, the doctors are just never good enough to do it in such a way as to not disrupt the flow of PPE.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

torjones wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

Congratulations, you are a super-taster. Welcome to the 15%.

you think you are being facetious...
But anyone who has had a wide and varied diet will be able to do the same.

I know I was able to, and probably for the same reason.

Nightmask wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

So apparently you think you've the ability to taste the difference between two identical molecules based on being able to notice differences in taste between a complex mix of molecules in food items when even identical food items grown in nature can taste differently because of things like soil differences and the fact the seeds themselves aren't genetically identical? Epic fail there with that fallacy, not the least of which using the 'overgeneralizing from personal experience' fallacy and being confused regarding what your personal experience actually represents.

Sorry but you just don't know what a fact is here, and it's a fact you're not going to tell the difference between identical molecules because they're identical. They possess no traits to differentiate between them based on the process that created them. Just as you can't use DNA testing to tell identical twins apart because you can't, their DNA is identical, the only way you might tell them apart is based on individual scars or other features (like different trace elements in their bodies).

Apparently neither do you.
you are making assumptions that lab created items are identical to nature created but then state that "contaminants" can effect the nature created.
wow, way to contradict your base argument and support my statement that it is opinion.

arouetta wrote:It could be the difference is the "human factor", that humans haven't reached a point of being able to truly duplicate the human genome. I'm recalling those studies where they tried genetic manipulation on kids with a disease causing no immune system. The bulk of the kids gained something of an immune system...and leukemia. The genetic manipulation just wasn't good enough.

So maybe the books are saying that when someone's DNA is tinkered with, the doctors are just never good enough to do it in such a way as to not disrupt the flow of PPE.

Tinkered or not its still organic. But on a personal note...I'll agree with you since I'm firm believer Genetics and magic should be more in line to better explain the rules they have governing magic.

Officially I think there just trying to keep the power level down or just not reading all of each others material. I know its a rule I will toss in regards to the genetic engineering part anyway and rule if its organic..if fine for mages. Only if they have mechanical parts will such a penalty come into play.

The only viable difference will how that cloned liver tastes..not function or material.

looks like a liver...tastes like Tofu... (Genetics lab Ad)

Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

oger333 wrote:i was wondering if a wizard or magic user would be able to still use it if they go Bionic or genetic work done . or even the host armor from splicer

How I run it (not necessarily canon)
Bionic - no (artificial/inorganics)
genetic replacements - yes (organics)
genetic manipulations - maybe (depends on the party power level, over all theme of the game, what the manipulations are, etc...)
Host armor - not just no but **** no. (host armor is powerful enough on its own it doesn't need the "boost")

Damian Magecraft wrote:

torjones wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:I have taste tested (blind study) lab grown versions of many natural foods and successfully identified the natural and lab versions each time.
Your statement is a not a fact it is opinion.

Congratulations, you are a super-taster. Welcome to the 15%.

you think you are being facetious...
But anyone who has had a wide and varied diet will be able to do the same.

Um, no. Actually, I'm not being facetious. It's medically documented that some people are capable of tasting more finely than others. I am not one of them, unfortunately.
Yes, the sense of taste can be trained, but that training itself does not make one a super-taster. That training will allow one to improve that which you start with, but can't give you the greater number of fungiform papillae. For a limited introduction to the phenomenon, please do a wiki search for "Super Taster." You'll see what I'm on about.

eliakon wrote:Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Rimmerdal wrote:

eliakon wrote:Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Organic ≠ Natural

Organic: relating to or derived from living matter.
Natural: existing in nature; not made or caused by humankind.

I would say that What "magic" objects to is the 'unnatural' even if it is organic. And that 'magical implants', being by their own existence infused with magical energies, get a pass.

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

eliakon wrote:Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Organic ≠ Natural

Organic: relating to or derived from living matter.
Natural: existing in nature; not made or caused by humankind.

I would say that What "magic" objects to is the 'unnatural' even if it is organic. And that 'magical implants', being by their own existence infused with magical energies, get a pass.

sorry dude, you just said Derived from living material...living material is natural. Now a metal or mechanical liver is not organic..while one grown in vat of a sample of a living one or even one based on the codes for a living one is organic and hence alive. Even if said grown liver is enhanced to peak efficiency. Only if super powers are possessed could be a problem..not be the liver its self. The super power might conflict depending on your GM and likely for balance issues in most cases.

If it is alive or its not...simple...A is A and regardless of source or what universe its in; has the properties of A. We will just need to agree to disagree on your definition of alive and natural.

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

eliakon wrote:Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Organic ≠ Natural

Organic: relating to or derived from living matter.
Natural: existing in nature; not made or caused by humankind.

I would say that What "magic" objects to is the 'unnatural' even if it is organic. And that 'magical implants', being by their own existence infused with magical energies, get a pass.

sorry dude, you just said Derived from living material...living material is natural. Now a metal or mechanical liver is not organic..while one grown in vat of a sample of a living one or even one based on the codes for a living one is organic and hence alive. Even if said grown liver is enhanced to peak efficiency. Only if super powers are possessed could be a problem..not be the liver its self. The super power might conflict depending on your GM and likely for balance issues in most cases.

If it is alive or its not...simple...A is A and regardless of source or what universe its in; has the properties of A. We will just need to agree to disagree on your definition of alive and natural.

Untrue, in the Palladium Megaverse, there are MANY examples of living organisms that were grown in a lab, or modified, by humankind. Their very existence is 'unnatural', even if they are Organic.

again Organic ≠ Natural

Just because it is alive does not mean i is natural. Just because it is Natural does not mean it is alive.

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

eliakon wrote:Hrm perhaps the reason that genetics impair magic IS the same as cybernetics...you have changed the beings essential nature from what it WAS to what it is NOW. and that magic is intimately involved with stuff like that.....it could have an effect.

The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Organic ≠ Natural

Organic: relating to or derived from living matter.
Natural: existing in nature; not made or caused by humankind.

I would say that What "magic" objects to is the 'unnatural' even if it is organic. And that 'magical implants', being by their own existence infused with magical energies, get a pass.

sorry dude, you just said Derived from living material...living material is natural. Now a metal or mechanical liver is not organic..while one grown in vat of a sample of a living one or even one based on the codes for a living one is organic and hence alive. Even if said grown liver is enhanced to peak efficiency. Only if super powers are possessed could be a problem..not be the liver its self. The super power might conflict depending on your GM and likely for balance issues in most cases.

If it is alive or its not...simple...A is A and regardless of source or what universe its in; has the properties of A. We will just need to agree to disagree on your definition of alive and natural.

Untrue, in the Palladium Megaverse, there are MANY examples of living organisms that were grown in a lab, or modified, by humankind. Their very existence is 'unnatural', even if they are Organic.

again Organic ≠ Natural

Just because it is alive does not mean i is natural. Just because it is Natural does not mean it is alive.

A is A no matter what. if its cloned, derived from living material or natural born and organic...its alive and quite organic. That cloned and living life made in a lab still is organic and derived form organic life along the line somewhere. There may be some exception but as general rule.. If its organic it lives and is natural according to this rule.

do not confuse that with Sentient machines (as in mechanical or inorganic Biological machines made to look like life forms) with living life forms (Organic and non mechanical.)

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:The issue with magic is largely living tissue versus non-living. The sole exception being magical implants which are rare and don't seem to have a manufacturer on earth. But if that liver were made of inorganic material then yes it should be a an implant.

That said most made in a lab still use organic material. the only use I can see inorganic ones for would be hazardous environments or by the CS to cripple a mage. (Implant most of his internal organs with 'cybernertic' or inorganic Bioware..

Organic ≠ Natural

Organic: relating to or derived from living matter.
Natural: existing in nature; not made or caused by humankind.

I would say that What "magic" objects to is the 'unnatural' even if it is organic. And that 'magical implants', being by their own existence infused with magical energies, get a pass.

sorry dude, you just said Derived from living material...living material is natural. Now a metal or mechanical liver is not organic..while one grown in vat of a sample of a living one or even one based on the codes for a living one is organic and hence alive. Even if said grown liver is enhanced to peak efficiency. Only if super powers are possessed could be a problem..not be the liver its self. The super power might conflict depending on your GM and likely for balance issues in most cases.

If it is alive or its not...simple...A is A and regardless of source or what universe its in; has the properties of A. We will just need to agree to disagree on your definition of alive and natural.

Untrue, in the Palladium Megaverse, there are MANY examples of living organisms that were grown in a lab, or modified, by humankind. Their very existence is 'unnatural', even if they are Organic.

again Organic ≠ Natural

Just because it is alive does not mean i is natural. Just because it is Natural does not mean it is alive.

A is A no matter what. if its cloned, derived from living material or natural born and organic...its alive and quite organic. That cloned and living life made in a lab still is organic and derived form organic life along the line somewhere. There may be some exception but as general rule.. If its organic it lives and is natural according to this rule.

do not confuse that with Sentient machines (as in mechanical or inorganic Biological machines made to look like life forms) with living life forms (Organic and non mechanical.)

Is... is this a troll... or a joke? Are your REALLY trying to say that everything grown in a lab is actually Natural and not Man Made?

Let us further clarify the word Natural, so there is no confusion.:
-That exists and evolved with the confines of an ecosystem
-Of or relating to nature.
-Without artificial additives
-Without, or prior to, modification or adjustment.

Something can be organic WITHOUT being Natural. And many such forms of life exist in the Megaverse.

If humans (or other races) made it in a lab, or artificially changed it from it's original form, it is no longer Natural.

13eowulf wrote:Is... is this a troll... or a joke? Are your REALLY trying to say that everything grown in a lab is actually Natural and not Man Made?

Let us further clarify the word Natural, so there is no confusion.:
-That exists and evolved with the confines of an ecosystem
-Of or relating to nature.
-Without artificial additives
-Without, or prior to, modification or adjustment.

Something can be organic WITHOUT being Natural. And many such forms of life exist in the Megaverse.

If humans (or other races) made it in a lab, or artificially changed it from it's original form, it is no longer Natural.

Organic implies it is alive at some point is based on living life form of some type. A lab does not change the fact it derived from a life form. As I said if the grown organ was a mechanical or a type of organ made non-organic matter that resembled a living organ (or those derived of living) its not organic. Natural or not Magic doesn't care..its where its alive and can Possess PPE..thats all that matters.

Its whether Cloned organs that are genetically altered will disrupt magic..and guess what? if there organic material..they don't. A mage is fine so long as the organ is organic whether or not its 'natural' according to your definition. Sorry I disagree with your definition of what constitutes as 'natural'.

The reason I see no reason to call genetic engineering unnatural. Nature already does Genetic engineering...its called evolution. this planet is one very big lab experiment gone wild. Much as we would all like to think we humans are the masters of genetics .....Man is not the first to tinker with genetics. We just do it faster than mother nature is all. And I did not say everything is natural...last I checked I was just talking about organs in the frame of this thread...so try and stay focused.

Oh and I'm not trolling. If I we're trolling I'd be calling you names and making fun of you and clearly I'm not. You don't like my response just agree to disagree with out hard feelings and let go...like the rest of us here. After all if we did agree on everything what point would there be to these forums?

If I we're trolling I'd be calling you names and making fun of you

Trolling does not require name-calling or personal attacks. I must assume you are describing how you would troll if you opted to troll and not some kind of all-inclusive definition.

Tor wrote:

If I we're trolling I'd be calling you names and making fun of you

Trolling does not require name-calling or personal attacks. I must assume you are describing how you would troll if you opted to troll and not some kind of all-inclusive definition.

It usually does come with it. so I tend to lump name calling with trolls. Trolls tend to be insult others. and you would be correct it is not required. Just most trolls I've seen tend to insult (directly or indirectly) and that experience is what I'm going off of. so out habit I view trolling that way.

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Is... is this a troll... or a joke? Are your REALLY trying to say that everything grown in a lab is actually Natural and not Man Made?

Let us further clarify the word Natural, so there is no confusion.:
-That exists and evolved with the confines of an ecosystem
-Of or relating to nature.
-Without artificial additives
-Without, or prior to, modification or adjustment.

Something can be organic WITHOUT being Natural. And many such forms of life exist in the Megaverse.

If humans (or other races) made it in a lab, or artificially changed it from it's original form, it is no longer Natural.

Organic implies it is alive at some point is based on living life form of some type. A lab does not change the fact it derived from a life form. As I said if the grown organ was a mechanical or a type of organ made non-organic matter that resembled a living organ (or those derived of living) its not organic. Natural or not Magic doesn't care..its where its alive and can Possess PPE..thats all that matters.

Its whether Cloned organs that are genetically altered will disrupt magic..and guess what? if there organic material..they don't. A mage is fine so long as the organ is organic whether or not its 'natural' according to your definition. Sorry I disagree with your definition of what constitutes as 'natural'.

The reason I see no reason to call genetic engineering unnatural. Nature already does Genetic engineering...its called evolution. this planet is one very big lab experiment gone wild. Much as we would all like to think we humans are the masters of genetics .....Man is not the first to tinker with genetics. We just do it faster than mother nature is all. And I did not say everything is natural...last I checked I was just talking about organs in the frame of this thread...so try and stay focused.

Oh and I'm not trolling. If I we're trolling I'd be calling you names and making fun of you and clearly I'm not. You don't like my response just agree to disagree with out hard feelings and let go...like the rest of us here. After all if we did agree on everything what point would there be to these forums?

Nooo. Plastic for instance is organic...but not alive, nor based on the living. It is also not Natural (ie found in nature) but Synthetic (ie synthesized by man). This is what the rest of us are talking about. Natural vs Sythentic not Organic vs Inorganic.

eliakon wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

13eowulf wrote:Is... is this a troll... or a joke? Are your REALLY trying to say that everything grown in a lab is actually Natural and not Man Made?

Let us further clarify the word Natural, so there is no confusion.:
-That exists and evolved with the confines of an ecosystem
-Of or relating to nature.
-Without artificial additives
-Without, or prior to, modification or adjustment.

Something can be organic WITHOUT being Natural. And many such forms of life exist in the Megaverse.

If humans (or other races) made it in a lab, or artificially changed it from it's original form, it is no longer Natural.

Organic implies it is alive at some point is based on living life form of some type. A lab does not change the fact it derived from a life form. As I said if the grown organ was a mechanical or a type of organ made non-organic matter that resembled a living organ (or those derived of living) its not organic. Natural or not Magic doesn't care..its where its alive and can Possess PPE..thats all that matters.

Its whether Cloned organs that are genetically altered will disrupt magic..and guess what? if there organic material..they don't. A mage is fine so long as the organ is organic whether or not its 'natural' according to your definition. Sorry I disagree with your definition of what constitutes as 'natural'.

The reason I see no reason to call genetic engineering unnatural. Nature already does Genetic engineering...its called evolution. this planet is one very big lab experiment gone wild. Much as we would all like to think we humans are the masters of genetics .....Man is not the first to tinker with genetics. We just do it faster than mother nature is all. And I did not say everything is natural...last I checked I was just talking about organs in the frame of this thread...so try and stay focused.

Oh and I'm not trolling. If I we're trolling I'd be calling you names and making fun of you and clearly I'm not. You don't like my response just agree to disagree with out hard feelings and let go...like the rest of us here. After all if we did agree on everything what point would there be to these forums?

Nooo. Plastic for instance is organic...but not alive, nor based on the living. It is also not Natural (ie found in nature) but Synthetic (ie synthesized by man). This is what the rest of us are talking about. Natural vs Sythentic not Organic vs Inorganic.

I did say Alive and organic. I didn't say there weren't non-living Organic or Living inorganics stuff/life forms. Just said Cloned Organis organs counted as good for magic as naturally exsisting ones. As I'm never going to see eye-to-eye....no point in argueing and getting harsh feelings or Mods to shut us down.

Rimmerdal wrote:I tend to lump name calling with trolls. Trolls tend to be insult others.

Just most trolls I've seen tend to insult (directly or indirectly)

I would argue that most trolling involves INDIRECT insults, and namecalling is direct.

Being that it requires falsehood (presenting false opinions to enflame) trolling is inherently linked to misdirection, so direct insults are against the spirit of trolling.

The classic troll which should define the steretype is more of a 'I will convey a general opinion that upsets others' moreso than 'I will convey a specific insult that insults a particular person/group'.

A "perhaps x group should be locked up" rather than "you x groups are ADJECTIVE".