Just rewatching New Generation...

[Jerell]

I haven't watched New Generation in quite some time, probably something like 15+ years. While watching the other night, I noticed that in the episode where they meet Lunk, Scott refers to Rand's cyclone weapon (Identified as an EP-40 Ion 'pulse' Pistol in the Shadow Chronicles RPG) as a "Proton" cannon. It got me to wondering why the RPG didn't go with that designation? Call it a Ion weapon to keep more in line with rifts? Of course there's the high probability that they just threw the term Proton Cannon into the dub, but I'd have to get something to play may old MOSPEADA VHS to check that. I also noticed he fires that thing fairly quickly for something without burst capabilities, but then maybe he was spamming the trigger sometimes... I still like the name proton cannon, it reminds me of Proton torpedo.

Having played in excellent the assault on Reflex Point game at the Detroit Fanfare really rekindled my interest in New Gen (My thanks to the GM!). However, in that game I was playing the "Rand-type" character who had the "Rand-type" cyclone. Which was fine since Rand was always my favorite, however I did find the damage of the EP-40 to be somewhat on the low side compared with my contemporaries. It seems like it either needs at least an extra D6 or maybe a short burst option. It seems like it's kind of a sniper-pistol as is, in the current rules. Thoughts on that?

Also I've been struck by how much I actually really, really like all the characters in New Generation. Watching this now, being older (and higher in level), gives me a whole new perspective on the series and I'm really enjoying it. I didn't think I would be as back in to all the characters as I am. This is still great.

[guardiandashi]

I haven't watched New Generation in quite some time, probably something like 15+ years. While watching the other night, I noticed that in the episode where they meet Lunk, Scott refers to Rand's cyclone weapon (Identified as an EP-40 Ion 'pulse' Pistol in the Shadow Chronicles RPG) as a "Proton" cannon. It got me to wondering why the RPG didn't go with that designation? Call it a Ion weapon to keep more in line with rifts? Of course there's the high probability that they just threw the term Proton Cannon into the dub, but I'd have to get something to play may old MOSPEADA VHS to check that. I also noticed he fires that thing fairly quickly for something without burst capabilities, but then maybe he was spamming the trigger sometimes... I still like the name proton cannon, it reminds me of Proton torpedo.

Having played in excellent the assault on Reflex Point game at the Detroit Fanfare really rekindled my interest in New Gen (My thanks to the GM!). However, in that game I was playing the "Rand-type" character who had the "Rand-type" cyclone. Which was fine since Rand was always my favorite, however I did find the damage of the EP-40 to be somewhat on the low side compared with my contemporaries. It seems like it either needs at least an extra D6 or maybe a short burst option. It seems like it's kind of a sniper-pistol as is, in the current rules. Thoughts on that?

Also I've been struck by how much I actually really, really like all the characters in New Generation. Watching this now, being older (and higher in level), gives me a whole new perspective on the series and I'm really enjoying it. I didn't think I would be as back in to all the characters as I am. This is still great.

the ep40 is the one that in invid invasion is 4d6 mdc with a range of 2000 ft?

ya I not overly impressed with that one considering a gallant H90 in rifle mode has the same output ....
I mean 22 lbs for the weapon, with it giving a +1 to hit bonus isn't horrible, (and 30 shots per clip)
but I think if I had to choose I would much rather take an ep-37 and a bunch of spare clips (only 10 shots/clip) but does 1d4x10 mdc to 4000 ft

[tobefrnk]

Yes. I had to adjust the M.D. value of the EP40 up in my game. It bothered me how weak it was.

[ShadowLogan]

While watching the other night, I noticed that in the episode where they meet Lunk, Scott refers to Rand's cyclone weapon (Identified as an EP-40 Ion 'pulse' Pistol in the Shadow Chronicles RPG) as a "Proton" cannon. It got me to wondering why the RPG didn't go with that designation? Call it a Ion weapon to keep more in line with rifts? Of course there's the high probability that they just threw the term Proton Cannon into the dub, but I'd have to get something to play may old MOSPEADA VHS to check that. I also noticed he fires that thing fairly quickly for something without burst capabilities, but then maybe he was spamming the trigger sometimes... I still like the name proton cannon, it reminds me of Proton torpedo.

Episode is "Lonely Solider Boy".

Yes it is called a Proton Cannon in RT, to lazy right now to put in the MOSPEDA DVDs. However, this isn't the only example of a weapon that gets its function changed based on dialogue (VHT's BFG at one point is called a laser on the -1S model). The VHT is a bit harder to figure out, but I think the EP-40 change isn't all that important. A Proton Beam could be seen as an Ion or Particle Beam Weapon, so they went with that for game mechanics IMHO and in-universe it could be called something different (like the EP-40 Proton Cannon).

ROF examples are also something that don't always hold up between the show and the RPG (again VHT BFG), though the RPG does allow multi-shots to be considered a single blast and not a burst at times. They may have simply decided that Rand's EP-40 burst fire is more consistent with their idea of multi-round shots = single blast and not burst.

Damages have always been arbitrary in their assignment IMHO. The EP-40 is supposed to be a pistol/sub-machinegun type weapon, and the EP-37 is a rifle, so I can see it being under performing. The EP-40 is still better than a Gallant in pistol mode, and equal to it in Rifle mode generally, though the Gallant in 2E gets a larger payload and can burst where the EP-40 can't (Rifle mode burst is 50% more powerful than the EP-40 blast).

[jaymz]

Lets keep in mind this is the same game in which the Cyclone's EP-37 rifle, while it has a limited payload, does more damage to the same range as the Alpha's EP-13 gunpod.

I rewrote everytihng....

[Jerell]

Good points all around. I do think mecha should have more firepower than power armor. And Power Armor should have for fire power than foot infantry in most cases. The EP-13 also cries for an upgrade, There's no reason it should be out damaged by the EP-37.

Yes. I had to adjust the M.D. value of the EP40 up in my game. It bothered me how weak it was.

Yeah, the Ep-40 issue really does bother me. For gaming purposes also, because you're sacrificing the VR-052's missiles, and probably are not going to be carrying the EP-37 when you have an EP-40. The only plus side I see to the EP-40 as it is in game, is if you're constantly going for called shots.

Regardless of the rest of it, why bother calling it a pulse pistol when presenting it as a single shot weapon?

So much of the book is done so well, I just feel some of weapons need a little more fine tuning, in regards to their scale. 5 blasts of a 37mm should not be more damaging than 5 blasts from an 80mm when the same people are manufacturing it, no?

[guardiandashi]

Good points all around. I do think mecha should have more firepower than power armor. And Power Armor should have for fire power than foot infantry in most cases. The EP-13 also cries for an upgrade, There's no reason it should be out damaged by the EP-37.

Yes. I had to adjust the M.D. value of the EP40 up in my game. It bothered me how weak it was.

Yeah, the Ep-40 issue really does bother me. For gaming purposes also, because you're sacrificing the VR-052's missiles, and probably are not going to be carrying the EP-37 when you have an EP-40. The only plus side I see to the EP-40 as it is in game, is if you're constantly going for called shots.

Regardless of the rest of it, why bother calling it a pulse pistol when presenting it as a single shot weapon?

So much of the book is done so well, I just feel some of weapons need a little more fine tuning, in regards to their scale. 5 blasts of a 37mm should not be more damaging than 5 blasts from an 80mm when the same people are manufacturing it, no?

especially when the ep 37 (rifle) weighs 14 lbs (ish) and only has like a -3 penalty for a regular char to use and the ep 40 (pistol) weighs 22 lbs and has an inherent +1 to hit, but a regular human takes a -10 to use it? err what?

now I will grant you the place where the ep40's limited damage doesn't really matter to much is if you are constantly going "aimed shot eye" on invid mecha, but ...

[jaymz]

Keep in mind the EP-40 is supposed to be mounted on the forearm plate of a Cyclone. The EP-37 does not which is how you get the difference in penalties for regular characters to use.

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, the Ep-40 issue really does bother me. For gaming purposes also, because you're sacrificing the VR-052's missiles, and probably are not going to be carrying the EP-37 when you have an EP-40. The only plus side I see to the EP-40 as it is in game, is if you're constantly going for called shots.

That may not be a bad trade though. Assuming No Critical Strikes are involved:
-EP-40 equals 4-24 points per shot, payload 80 (2E, 30 for 1E) resulting in 320pts minimum to 1920pts max (1E 120-720)
-2 GR-97s only do 40-240points per full payload (assuming plasma).
-pair of GR-103s (which is what the Cyclone has) would do 120-720 points, assuming plasma other wise 480points for the next best.

The one thing the mini-missiles have is the ability to deliver damage more quickly (1 AP/Plasma mini-missile = ~2-3 EP-40 shots, and you can fire 1-4 of them), but in the long run an EP-40 is more potent than the missile systems. The mini-missiles do have a range advantage over the EP-40, but the smaller payload...

So much of the book is done so well, I just feel some of weapons need a little more fine tuning, in regards to their scale. 5 blasts of a 37mm should not be more damaging than 5 blasts from an 80mm when the same people are manufacturing it, no?

Palladium has never done scale well. And it isn't just the weapon damages, but the amount of protective value a target has for it's mass with regard to MD/MDC.

A 37mm might out perform an 80mm, if it was willing to use more energy per shot than the 80mm, but both weapons have identical payloads and drastically different energy clip sizes which at that scale I just don't see it working out that way. One almost needs to multiply all values (range, damage, payload) by 10 for the (full-size) mecha weapons.

[Colonel Wolfe]

you also have to Remember that thier is 2 versions of the EP-40 in the Book.
in the hard back, page 102 lists range 1,500, Payload: 80 MDC: 35
on page 127, Rage 1,200 Payload: 110, MDC: 30


here is my Damage comparison of all the guns found in the TSC book, to show the absurd nature of the larger mecha weapons that in some cases have less then 2x the range of the smaller hand-held guns dealing tons less damage per e-clip.

EP-40: 4D6 x 80 MD (1120 avg dmg), 8 lb, 1500 ft (pg 102)
EP-40: 4D6 x 110 MD ( avg 1540 dmg), 8 lbs. 1200 ft (pg 127)
EP-37: 4D4 x 100 Md or 1D6 x 200 (1000 or 700 dmg), 22 lbs 4000 ft
FAL-2: 3D6 x 290(3045 MD) or 6D6 x 96 (2016 mD) , 6lbs 1900 ft
Gallant (Pistol): 1D6 x 830 (2905 md), 2lbs 800 ft
Gallant (Rifle): 2D6 x 415 (2905) or 6D6 x 83 (1743), 7 lbs 1600 ft
H-260: 2D6 x 415 (2905) or 4D6 x 138 (1932), 12 lbs 2000 ft
M-30 (pistol): 1D6 x 622 (2177), 4lbs 800 ft
M-30 (Rifle) 2D6 x 311 (2177) or 4D6 x 62 (868), 9lbs 1700 ft
SAL-9 (non-PC clip): 1D6 x 40 (140) 4 lbs 1000 ft
SAL-9 (PC Clip): 1D6 x 830 (2905) 4lbs 1000ft

EU-12: 2D4x10+8 x 40 (2320), 120 lbs 2000 ft
EU-13: 4D4 x 100 (1000) or 1D4x 10 x 20 (500), 500 lbs 4000 ft
Eu-15: 5D6 x 100 (1750) or 1D6 x 10 x 20 (700), 750 lbs 4000 ft

[Jerell]

Excellent comparison Colonel. Damage scale considering size of weapons is the one thing that I feel most needs to be addressed system wide.

I'm especially looking at the Alpha's base gun pod and laughable forward lasers here. Why not just mount EP-37s, or even rifle gallants into the Alpha's forward lasers in jet mode?

[ShadowLogan]

here is my Damage comparison of all the guns found in the TSC book, to show the absurd nature of the larger mecha weapons that in some cases have less then 2x the range of the smaller hand-held guns dealing tons less damage per e-clip.

Not to be nit picky, but you missed the Bioroid Interceptor's gunpod. Compared to the other EU-##, it has atrocious payload (10 shots), but other performance markers (range, damage, mass) are in between though. Though how much is to "manage" the Zent/Tirolians (like the Z-1/Z-2 in 1E Sent) I don't know.

It's almost like one needs to add a zero to energy weapon payloads for full-size mecha, and maybe raise the Dice Code one or two (or use a multiplier). That or there is some scale factor built within the game engine we aren't taking into consideration that we aren't supposed to know about (one can easily see it with regard to MDC/mass ratios).