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While I can't wait to see what's in the UEEF Marine books. I come back to wondering if a unified space force really needs something called a marine (since they're not really water-based). Why not just UEEF infantry, soldiers, ect. Maybe if marines had even been mentioned in the any of the 3 series, I'd be more behind the use of the name.

I'm so hopeful for the content of the Marines books, even though I'm very against the UEEF having a separate sub-service for infantry. Please be good.

Jerell wrote:While I can't wait to see what's in the UEEF Marine books. I come back to wondering if a unified space force really needs something called a marine (since they're not really water-based). Why not just UEEF infantry, soldiers, ect. Maybe if marines had even been mentioned in the any of the 3 series, I'd be more behind the use of the name.

I'm so hopeful for the content of the Marines books, even though I'm very against the UEEF having a separate sub-service for infantry. Please be good.

TBH, yeah, no water... Marine is a silly name for people in Space...
I guess if they are only used in combat on planets with tons of water... the name is appropriate then...

Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

it has to do with a historical /psudo historical precedent I think.

army units exclusively (in theory) deploy on land and then fight on land, they don't normally do "landing operations" from the sea.

the marines on the other hand do do those initial landing operations, (at least in theory) and extrapolating space ships/star ships to be more like "black water navy" aka space it is generally assumed that units carried /deployed from ships are going to be more like marines than army troops.

And let's keep in mind "Marine" has been used for other space settings namely Aliens and Warhammer 40K

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

well if Robotech Marines are going to be 10ft tall genetic mutants with mutiple hearts and insane powered armours... sign me up for them... now if they are gonna be basically Imperial guards with the cool "marine" title... call a spade a spade

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

well if Robotech Marines are going to be 10ft tall genetic mutants with mutiple hearts and insane powered armours... sign me up for them... now if they are gonna be basically Imperial guards with the cool "marine" title... call a spade a spade

Colonial Marines with Cyclones Colonial Marines were bad ass. I want one of their dropships.....I bet it could carry a 4 hovertank unit to a planets surface and give excellent ground support too

the way i see it, the Marines are a result of the UEDF's hybrid nature.

the UEDF, and the UEEF that grew from it, are the result of the unification of many nations into a common entity, creating a multi-national organization.

as part of this, they'd have to accomidate the disparate organizational structures of the member states military's.

there are basically two ways of handling ship based land combat forces. first is 'naval infantry', where they are navy personnel, just trained for army type roles and some amphibious training and equipment added. this is pretty typical for smaller military's.

the other is as a seperate branch (be it de jure or de facto), with its own complete organization and traditions, usually with its own equipment procurement and upper leadership. like the USMC, the Royal Marines, and Republic of Korea Marine Corps. these organizations effectively have a wider purview than just ship based security and amphibious ops, usually taking the role of self contained forces that can be deployed elsewhere quickly. as a result they have developed doctrines and traditions less focused on naval service.

those nations that have 'Naval infatry' type units could be incorporated into the UEDF's naval forces pretty easily. but what to do with the other type? they won't really mesh with the UEDF Navy.. and you can't roll them into the UEDF army either. yet they have parts of both. and you don't want to split them between the two. best choice? create a "UEDF marines" you can use to incorporate these organizations into (as well as other atypical forces like for example the French Foreign legion) that don't neatly fit into the army/navy dichotomy.. it'll give the UEDF (and later the UEEF through organizational inertia) a unique asset doctrine wise, trained to do some things that he Navy isn't equipped to handle, and the Army isn't trained well in.

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

well if Robotech Marines are going to be 10ft tall genetic mutants with mutiple hearts and insane powered armours... sign me up for them... now if they are gonna be basically Imperial guards with the cool "marine" title... call a spade a spade

Colonial Marines with Cyclones Colonial Marines were bad ass. I want one of their dropships.....I bet it could carry a 4 hovertank unit to a planets surface and give excellent ground support too

I think the UD-4 could carry maybe a singular hovertank...since it can carry the M577 APC. The air support aspect is pretty awesome in both the dropship and gunship model.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:

jaymz wrote:

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

well if Robotech Marines are going to be 10ft tall genetic mutants with mutiple hearts and insane powered armours... sign me up for them... now if they are gonna be basically Imperial guards with the cool "marine" title... call a spade a spade

Colonial Marines with Cyclones Colonial Marines were bad ass. I want one of their dropships.....I bet it could carry a 4 hovertank unit to a planets surface and give excellent ground support too

I think the UD-4 could carry maybe a singular hovertank...since it can carry the M577 APC. The air support aspect is pretty awesome in both the dropship and gunship model.

-STS

Ok I was overzealous....how about a 10 man cyclone unit?

Well, think of it this way: The space ships are naval units, then you are going to have some kind of infantry force that deploys off those ships as the initial fighting force to establish a beach head, expand and secure your space to allow other units to land.
In this case, planets.
And Marine units are much more accustomed to doing more with less, taking the initative, and manover combinded arms warfare.

Kurseteller wrote:Because Marines are cooler sounding than soldiers? Which scares you more? Imperial guard plattons or SPACE MARINES?

Honestly, IG platoons. Mainly because they tend to have the heaviest armor support, cheap but numerous APCs, great artillery and the best air support backing them up. All the marines have going for them is that they concentrate force much better on a squad to squad level, but I digress.

I respect the opinions rendered, however I myself still don't think a sub service is necessary. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Infantry is infantry, weather they have a fancy-pants name or you just call them dog-faced soldiers. With the right Commanders intent and NCO knowhow, you can train the raw material to act how you need them to, no matter the name. I prefer a unified fighting force, just calling them UEEF Infantry is much more appealing to me. Even if you want to call them marines for national tradition purposes, fine. But I'm against it being a sperate sub service.

I looking forward to get these two books so looking forward it,what the new Marine Corps O.C.C. and M.O.S. skills.so looking forward it
Many new mechaso looking forward it.,New Marine ground vehicles.so looking forward it,New Marine weapons and gearso looking forward it.,History, trainingso looking forward it, & organization of the UEEF Marinesso looking forward it.,Aliens so looking forward itand space adventure.

I'm expecting to be impressed, as I was with Genesis Pits. I'm hoping to see not just the 'Grunt', but specialist OCCs/MOS in Intelligence/Counter-Intelligence, Munitions, Snipers, ect.

Can't wait for it either. Well, I can't wait for anything to do with Robotech.

Really, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for anything Robotech as well.

Jerell wrote:[/i] Infantry is infantry,

Fraid not.
The US Army has been trying to develop their own Amphib capability to replace the USMC for years. Has not worked yet.
I was stationed at Dam Neck VA (96', 99'), used to watch the Army hovercraft speed to shore, and deploy their forces in their amphib exercises.
It was cringe worthy.

And if infantry is infantry, then why have SOF?

while many countries their 'marines' are little more than army guys in boats to land ashore, or to board other ships, but compare this to the USMC or the Royal Marines.. who are not actually trained much in boarding tactics or beach assults as a primary, but as combined arms rapid reaction forces for any enviroment, and which are often "first in, last out" jacks of all trades.. unlike most army's.

generally the bigger the 'marine' forces a country has, the more thay become their own thing instead of just "soldiers in boats".. and since the UEDF and UEEF is the result of merging all the military's of the 1990's into one single over arcing organization, they'd need a way to handle the "their own kind of thing" that worked.. especially since in the early days it would have been little more than redesignation of units to be in specific UEDF branches. can you imagine what would happen if the Marine Corps of the world that were used to operating as their own branches suddenly were forced to conform to navy ranks, organization, and command? or assigned to the.. god forbid.. Army?

Well I hope they don't get their own OCC's and MOS's. Because in TSC they already have several MOS's built into the game.

I myself see the Marines as a sub class (MOS) in Character Generation. I like the idea of having a single unified military structure for Robotech. It would make extreme sense to me, as the world was destroyed and unified under the SDF-1's survivors.

It is fairly simplistic view, but it works really well for non-military folks.

If most every 'branch' of the ASC has it's own OCC with associated MOS's why can't the UEEF? Personally I think the TSC OCC's are severely lacking, and then to top it off we didn't even get any Macross era specific OCC's in the Macross source book. Instead we had to 'convert' (with little guidance) the TSC OCC"s and MOS to the Macross era.

So I am hoping we get a Marine specific OCC and MOS's with the UEEF Marines book. We got the UEEF Explorer Corps in the Genesis Pit source book, which is pretty much the Robotech version of a Starfleet Officer.

As for the issue regarding to have or not have 'Marines' as glitterboy2098 pointed out the early UEDF was most likely a conglomeration of units. Besides U.S. Marines would not causally throw away their title. Even those who end up joining the U.S. Army National Guard (often there is not a U.S. Marine Reserve unit near where they live) often still call one another 'Marine'. So yeah odds are 'Marine' type organizations would push to have a 'UEDF Marine Corps'.

glitterboy2098 wrote:while many countries their 'marines' are little more than army guys in boats to land ashore, or to board other ships, but compare this to the USMC or the Royal Marines.. who are not actually trained much in boarding tactics or beach assults as a primary, but as combined arms rapid reaction forces for any enviroment, and which are often "first in, last out" jacks of all trades.. unlike most army's.

generally the bigger the 'marine' forces a country has, the more thay become their own thing instead of just "soldiers in boats".. and since the UEDF and UEEF is the result of merging all the military's of the 1990's into one single over arcing organization, they'd need a way to handle the "their own kind of thing" that worked.. especially since in the early days it would have been little more than redesignation of units to be in specific UEDF branches. can you imagine what would happen if the Marine Corps of the world that were used to operating as their own branches suddenly were forced to conform to navy ranks, organization, and command? or assigned to the.. god forbid.. Army?

Very well said!

Also, if they're based on the US or British Marines, they're not just soldiers-- the USMC has it's own air support, dedicated support ships, heavy ground combat elements, etc. They're considerably more flexible and independent than the army, especially with their ability to get to the combat zone quickly and in the face of opposition.

If they are based on the USMC or British Marines, I do hope we find that they were no where near earth during the initial attacks on the Invid, because had they been, I expect the commanders would have been repeatedly smacked about for creating such a dumb plan.

Deckard1973 wrote:

Jerell wrote:[/i] Infantry is infantry,

Fraid not.
The US Army has been trying to develop their own Amphib capability to replace the USMC for years. Has not worked yet.
I was stationed at Dam Neck VA (96', 99'), used to watch the Army hovercraft speed to shore, and deploy their forces in their amphib exercises.
It was cringe worthy.

And if infantry is infantry, then why have SOF?

Operation Torch. Sicily. Italy. Normandy. Okinawa. The Army has been able to do amphibious landings when the need was there. SOF is something different entirely, they are not standard infantry. I've supported US SF, SBS, and CIA, in my experience they operate differently than the standard services, and it's better that way. If a current US Army unity has trouble figuring out an amphibious landing, I'd blame the officers in charge. Because I haven't noticed a huge difference between US Army Infantry and Marines at the E1-E6 level.

mech798 wrote:Also, if they're based on the US or British Marines, they're not just soldiers-- the USMC has it's own air support, dedicated support ships, heavy ground combat elements, etc. They're considerably more flexible and independent than the army, especially with their ability to get to the combat zone quickly and in the face of opposition.

If they are based on the USMC or British Marines, I do hope we find that they were no where near earth during the initial attacks on the Invid, because had they been, I expect the commanders would have been repeatedly smacked about for creating such a dumb plan.

They are not considerably more flexible than the army, who has their own CAS in the form of Apaches and Kiowas, para-infantry, air assault units, Rangers, SP (and SP Rocket) Artillery and dedicated medical, civil affairs and medivac assets. I'm not saying the one is better than the other, but operationally the Navy, Air Force, or UEEF for that matter, could get either Army or Marines to a theater just as quickly. The advantage the US Marines have over the US Army is being a much smaller force, they can be more selective as to which people they recruit. However some modern western armies such as Canada, have a single unified armed force. I got trained in basic winter warfare with them, and I like their unified system quite a bit. There's been much talk of unifying the all the US medical services into a single force, which I also think would be a good idea if we could just convince all the Admirals and Generals.

For heavy ground, combined arms units, you're not going to get better than units like US 3rd ID, or US ACRs or 1st US Armored Division. The 3rd ID blitz to Baghdad in 2003 is well known.

Respect and Oorah to all the Marines I get the feeling I'm talking to. Rock of the Marne.

This thread is turning into the age old 'Army vs Marine' debate. Yes both branches have overlapping duties, but there are others in which they don't overlap.

Personally I don't know why people have so much hate when it comes to utilizing the term 'Marine' for the UEEF's ground combat element.

Eh... my opinion of the book is up in the air. On the one hand, new material. On the other, it's not really new Robotech material. I'll wait 'till it comes out and I've got a copy to decide if it thrills me or not.

guardiandashi wrote:it has to do with a historical /psudo historical precedent I think.

's almost certainly a case of Harmony Gold's tendency to defer to the OSM whenever possible... the original Macross's UN Forces didn't have one Marine Corps, they had TWO. One for the surface fleet (the UN Marine Corps) and another one attached to their new space forces (UN Spacy Marine Corps). Tommy and co. are probably just following the original creator's lead on this one, making their space fleet-based orbit-to-surface assault specialists a Marine Corps instead of regular Army units.

(It's worth noting that the UN Spacy in the original was not a contraction of Space Navy, the most literal translation of the Japanese would be "Space Military", and it was organizationally an Army with its own Air Service.)

jedi078 wrote:Personally I don't know why people have so much hate when it comes to utilizing the term 'Marine' for the UEEF's ground combat element.

Happens a lot when you bring up Marines for Sci-Fit settings. I have seen some really nasty fights over Starfleet having Marines or not. Its often a banned topic for how nasty it gets.

Shawn Merrow wrote:

jedi078 wrote:Personally I don't know why people have so much hate when it comes to utilizing the term 'Marine' for the UEEF's ground combat element.

Happens a lot when you bring up Marines for Sci-Fit settings. I have seen some really nasty fights over Starfleet having Marines or not. Its often a banned topic for how nasty it gets.

Really? Huh... maybe I'm missing out by not being into Trek or Wars. Personally, I never saw anything wrong with the UEEF having marines, since they were totally a thing in the OSM, and Harmony Gold tends to draw on that whenever the need for detail comes up.

(Also, didn't Star Trek settle that once and for all with Enterprise?)

Enterprise added "MACO's".. didn't really end the arguement, now you just have people argueing over whether the MACo's continued on into the federation starfleet.. or ended when Earth Starfleet did.

personally i fall into the "yes the Federation has 'marines'/MACO's." basically using the same logic as given by Heinlein in Space Cadet as to the Patrol vs the Space Marines.. the patrol selects its personnel for intelligence and the ability to be flexible. but it isn't intended to fight wars, and the people it recruits and selects for aren't really suited to such a role. thus the more militaristic space marines, who can fight wars and do the things the Patrol can't, when needed. by the same logic though, the militaristic Space marines are not the kind of people you want to do the patrol's warfare prevention jobs.

well, if this book contains the history of the Marines.. it will be the first new fiction for Robotech in many years... as long as it leaves it open that their are more ground forces than just the marine details... I'll like it, if Every ground pounder is a marine... nah, I'll stick to the canon in the show.

Jerell wrote:

Deckard1973 wrote:

Jerell wrote:[/i] Infantry is infantry,

Fraid not.
The US Army has been trying to develop their own Amphib capability to replace the USMC for years. Has not worked yet.
I was stationed at Dam Neck VA (96', 99'), used to watch the Army hovercraft speed to shore, and deploy their forces in their amphib exercises.
It was cringe worthy.

And if infantry is infantry, then why have SOF?

Operation Torch. Sicily. Italy. Normandy. Okinawa. The Army has been able to do amphibious landings when the need was there. SOF is something different entirely, they are not standard infantry. I've supported US SF, SBS, and CIA, in my experience they operate differently than the standard services, and it's better that way. If a current US Army unity has trouble figuring out an amphibious landing, I'd blame the officers in charge. Because I haven't noticed a huge difference between US Army Infantry and Marines at the E1-E6 level.

mech798 wrote:Also, if they're based on the US or British Marines, they're not just soldiers-- the USMC has it's own air support, dedicated support ships, heavy ground combat elements, etc. They're considerably more flexible and independent than the army, especially with their ability to get to the combat zone quickly and in the face of opposition.

If they are based on the USMC or British Marines, I do hope we find that they were no where near earth during the initial attacks on the Invid, because had they been, I expect the commanders would have been repeatedly smacked about for creating such a dumb plan.

They are not considerably more flexible than the army, who has their own CAS in the form of Apaches and Kiowas, para-infantry, air assault units, Rangers, SP (and SP Rocket) Artillery and dedicated medical, civil affairs and medivac assets. I'm not saying the one is better than the other, but operationally the Navy, Air Force, or UEEF for that matter, could get either Army or Marines to a theater just as quickly. The advantage the US Marines have over the US Army is being a much smaller force, they can be more selective as to which people they recruit. However some modern western armies such as Canada, have a single unified armed force. I got trained in basic winter warfare with them, and I like their unified system quite a bit. There's been much talk of unifying the all the US medical services into a single force, which I also think would be a good idea if we could just convince all the Admirals and Generals.

For heavy ground, combined arms units, you're not going to get better than units like US 3rd ID, or US ACRs or 1st US Armored Division. The 3rd ID blitz to Baghdad in 2003 is well known.

Respect and Oorah to all the Marines I get the feeling I'm talking to. Rock of the Marne.

Thanks Jerell.

IMHO, all the Army vs Marines (vs Navy and Air Force as well...but everyone does like the Coasties) stuff is usually relegated to bars (where it is good), internet forums (where it doesn't matter) and budget conferences (where it is very, very bad). To be truthful, professional military members all know their jobs and what their limitations are and it is very, very rare when one service or unit pretends they can "do it all." I have seen every branch and unit (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, multiple flavors of SOF, CSAs or Agencies) try it and fail. The WHOLE system is DESIGNED to work together and insisting that one branch can do everything all alone is either stupid or playing to an audience.

Yes, there should be Marines in the REF (yes, outdated term, but I like it), but there should also be some Army analog that has the capability to do an opposed space insertion and be capable of conducting sustained 24/7 combat operations at Corp level for years as long as the supply lines are open. The idea that 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 troops showing up from space can take and hold a planet is ludicrous...technology superiority only grants so much of an advantage. Marines are great for seizing spaceports, or several important objectives in a city and holding them for a few days in combat or even large size raids (clear X space dock in 6 hours then leave), but attacking and holding a planet...that is a job for an Army with a LOT of orbital fire support.

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:

Jerell wrote:

Deckard1973 wrote:

Jerell wrote:[/i] Infantry is infantry,

Fraid not.
The US Army has been trying to develop their own Amphib capability to replace the USMC for years. Has not worked yet.
I was stationed at Dam Neck VA (96', 99'), used to watch the Army hovercraft speed to shore, and deploy their forces in their amphib exercises.
It was cringe worthy.

And if infantry is infantry, then why have SOF?

Operation Torch. Sicily. Italy. Normandy. Okinawa. The Army has been able to do amphibious landings when the need was there. SOF is something different entirely, they are not standard infantry. I've supported US SF, SBS, and CIA, in my experience they operate differently than the standard services, and it's better that way. If a current US Army unity has trouble figuring out an amphibious landing, I'd blame the officers in charge. Because I haven't noticed a huge difference between US Army Infantry and Marines at the E1-E6 level.

mech798 wrote:Also, if they're based on the US or British Marines, they're not just soldiers-- the USMC has it's own air support, dedicated support ships, heavy ground combat elements, etc. They're considerably more flexible and independent than the army, especially with their ability to get to the combat zone quickly and in the face of opposition.

If they are based on the USMC or British Marines, I do hope we find that they were no where near earth during the initial attacks on the Invid, because had they been, I expect the commanders would have been repeatedly smacked about for creating such a dumb plan.

They are not considerably more flexible than the army, who has their own CAS in the form of Apaches and Kiowas, para-infantry, air assault units, Rangers, SP (and SP Rocket) Artillery and dedicated medical, civil affairs and medivac assets. I'm not saying the one is better than the other, but operationally the Navy, Air Force, or UEEF for that matter, could get either Army or Marines to a theater just as quickly. The advantage the US Marines have over the US Army is being a much smaller force, they can be more selective as to which people they recruit. However some modern western armies such as Canada, have a single unified armed force. I got trained in basic winter warfare with them, and I like their unified system quite a bit. There's been much talk of unifying the all the US medical services into a single force, which I also think would be a good idea if we could just convince all the Admirals and Generals.

For heavy ground, combined arms units, you're not going to get better than units like US 3rd ID, or US ACRs or 1st US Armored Division. The 3rd ID blitz to Baghdad in 2003 is well known.

Respect and Oorah to all the Marines I get the feeling I'm talking to. Rock of the Marne.

Thanks Jerell.

IMHO, all the Army vs Marines (vs Navy and Air Force as well...but everyone does like the Coasties) stuff is usually relegated to bars (where it is good), internet forums (where it doesn't matter) and budget conferences (where it is very, very bad). To be truthful, professional military members all know their jobs and what their limitations are and it is very, very rare when one service or unit pretends they can "do it all." I have seen every branch and unit (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, multiple flavors of SOF, CSAs or Agencies) try it and fail. The WHOLE system is DESIGNED to work together and insisting that one branch can do everything all alone is either stupid or playing to an audience.

Yes, there should be Marines in the REF (yes, outdated term, but I like it), but there should also be some Army analog that has the capability to do an opposed space insertion and be capable of conducting sustained 24/7 combat operations at Corp level for years as long as the supply lines are open. The idea that 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 troops showing up from space can take and hold a planet is ludicrous...technology superiority only grants so much of an advantage. Marines are great for seizing spaceports, or several important objectives in a city and holding them for a few days in combat or even large size raids (clear X space dock in 6 hours then leave), but attacking and holding a planet...that is a job for an Army with a LOT of orbital fire support.

-STS

Agree.

slade the sniper wrote:Yes, there should be Marines in the REF (yes, outdated term, but I like it), but there should also be some Army analog that has the capability to do an opposed space insertion and be capable of conducting sustained 24/7 combat operations at Corp level for years as long as the supply lines are open. The idea that 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 troops showing up from space can take and hold a planet is ludicrous...technology superiority only grants so much of an advantage. Marines are great for seizing spaceports, or several important objectives in a city and holding them for a few days in combat or even large size raids (clear X space dock in 6 hours then leave), but attacking and holding a planet...that is a job for an Army with a LOT of orbital fire support.

-STS

This makes sense. That is a well reasoned response, and has actually persuaded me that UEEF could have/use a Marine force. While I now can see the point of Marines in Robotech, I'm still in favor a unified command structure, like the Canadian Forces uses. What about having UEEF marines limited in unit size to about battalion or regiment like contemporary Rangers? That way they could be easily mobile and transferred from command to command where needed, with not a huge asset allocation. I could be in favor of something like that.

Now that I think about, I think that the UEEF could probably use some Ranger units. Ground units for infiltration and survival where supply in limited. They could recruit a lot of Wilderness scout types after Reflex Point. Train a whole bunch of Rands to work in a unit, add in some troops with lots of extra-terrestrial experience. Supported by SF experts at starting resistance type campaigns. From a GM perspective that could also make for a cool unit to use of for a campaign too.

I still have high hopes for these books. Come on... great content!

Jerell wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:Yes, there should be Marines in the REF (yes, outdated term, but I like it), but there should also be some Army analog that has the capability to do an opposed space insertion and be capable of conducting sustained 24/7 combat operations at Corp level for years as long as the supply lines are open. The idea that 5,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 troops showing up from space can take and hold a planet is ludicrous...technology superiority only grants so much of an advantage. Marines are great for seizing spaceports, or several important objectives in a city and holding them for a few days in combat or even large size raids (clear X space dock in 6 hours then leave), but attacking and holding a planet...that is a job for an Army with a LOT of orbital fire support.

-STS

This makes sense. That is a well reasoned response, and has actually persuaded me that UEEF could have/use a Marine force. While I now can see the point of Marines in Robotech, I'm still in favor a unified command structure, like the Canadian Forces uses. What about having UEEF marines limited in unit size to about battalion or regiment like contemporary Rangers? That way they could be easily mobile and transferred from command to command where needed, with not a huge asset allocation. I could be in favor of something like that.

Now that I think about, I think that the UEEF could probably use some Ranger units. Ground units for infiltration and survival where supply in limited. They could recruit a lot of Wilderness scout types after Reflex Point. Train a whole bunch of Rands to work in a unit, add in some troops with lots of extra-terrestrial experience. Supported by SF experts at starting resistance type campaigns. From a GM perspective that could also make for a cool unit to use of for a campaign too.

I still have high hopes for these books. Come on... great content!

I am not military, and do not have a military background however I do read a lot.

I look at many of these "forces" as focus and role.

historically, US marines have typically focused on, shipboard security, rapid response, and first in last out type operations, I believe.

so they are usually good at things like establishing a beach head (for the army to get setup and then do their thing) getting there "first" and sort of "asymmetrical warfare" this means they often punch "above their weight"

now I really believe the robotech (ref or whatever term you want to use) needs a force to do this job, and I think they tried to do this in the attacks to take back earth from the invid. the problem is that from what I read the "universe" conspired to sabotage the plan basically there was supposed to be a landing /infiltration force a follow up attack, and several reinforcement attacks that were all supposed to strike earth in a narrow time window, instead they arrived scattered in time over months - years instaid of hours.

Jerell wrote:What about having UEEF marines limited in unit size to about battalion or regiment like contemporary Rangers?

Then it wouldn't be a service branch and just a be a 'special forces' unit or task force. It wouldn't have it's own air wing (the TSC RPG states that there are UEEF Marine Air Wings), or heavy armor units such as Battliods.

In my games I took the Mil Spec OCC and turned it into the UEEF Fleets ground combat arm which is dedicated to carrying out ground reconnaissance, rescue, and intelligence gathering operations for the UEEF. So basically I turned the OCC into a 'special operations' OCC, because the UEEF would need such a unit and what was presented in the TSC book was pretty lackluster.

As for the need for a ground combat force capable of long term ground campaigns I can certainly see the UEEF Marines evolving to carry out that kind of role as the UEEF realized it needed such a force.

Personally I see no reason to have a 'UEEF Army'. For those who don't like the term Marine, or like what we get in the forthcoming UEEF Marine book can change things as they deem fit for their games.

Scott does refer to "army flyboys" at the battle of reflex point, but since earlier descriptions of the assualt indicate trops already on earth are doing most of the ground work (also explaining the lack of shadow tech in that force) it is likely most of them were ASC troops with UEEF equipment obtained from Mars Division wrecks.

At the risk of being...overzealous, I can pretty much break down the phases and operational requirements for invading and holding a planet in some depth. The problem with a generic phase 0-5 operational construct is that it lacks details that would add to the understanding of the plan.

-STS

I am just hoping the new mecha is not crappy.

slade the sniper wrote:At the risk of being...overzealous, I can pretty much break down the phases and operational requirements for invading and holding a planet in some depth. The problem with a generic phase 0-5 operational construct is that it lacks details that would add to the understanding of the plan.

Spoiler:

But...if anyone is interested, I can do so but would need an OPFOR for our spaceborne human invasion. I am assuming that they will be equipped with book standard mecha and I can whip up some numbers for maneuver, combat support and support forces but will have to know the following things:
Size of planet
Amount of Invid or rogue Masters/Zentraedi
locations of enemy forces and the terrain they will fight on
space forces, aerospace forces, ground forces, naval forces (which they should have...it is just dumb to ignore naval warfare in space centric sci-fi...)
Native population and their feelings towards Invid/Masters/Zentraedi/Humans and other races

-STS

Why not use one of the REF outposts featured in the old REF field guide (page #46)? Or the base on page 48?

glitterboy2098 wrote:Scott does refer to "army flyboys" at the battle of reflex point, but since earlier descriptions of the assualt indicate trops already on earth are doing most of the ground work (also explaining the lack of shadow tech in that force) it is likely most of them were ASC troops with UEEF equipment obtained from Mars Division wrecks.

Dark Finale:

Lunk "Hey everbody… well what do you know can you believe it this crazy army has made me a solider again be seeing ya"

Scott "Yeap I get the impression these army flyboys are a little rusty at it so I guess we'll just have to give them a few pointers "

I'm not sure the bulk are UEDF: ASC troops if any at all. The bulk of the solider uniforms we see are UEEF by all indications (though due to production origins that should not be surprising):
-Lunk's flashback from the Invasion (he has UEEF outfit on)
-Lancer's division certainly had survivors in the comic
-Col. Wolfe had individuals with UEEF uniforms (I would think UEDF: ASC would still be using theirs, though by this time they might have had to replace them) in town (though his uniform was distinct)
-Old timer Garfish crew (UEEF uniforms, at least some and they do identify as all coming from the UEEF)
-"Hired Gun" soldiers being hunted by Dusty where in UEEF uniforms.
-aside from civilian groups (Bikers, Tribe, etc) the only organized group on Earth with uniforms was Noristown and their uniforms aren't very UEDF (they do have UEEF insignia)

I'm not saying Marines cann't exist, but the instances available in the show seem to point to the Marines either having been reduced in role from today/RL-USMC OR everything was rolled into a single entity given the use of "soldiers" in dialogue but nothing about Airman, Marine, and Sailor (except by officer rank inference for Navy).

jedi078 wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:At the risk of being...overzealous, I can pretty much break down the phases and operational requirements for invading and holding a planet in some depth. The problem with a generic phase 0-5 operational construct is that it lacks details that would add to the understanding of the plan.

Spoiler:

But...if anyone is interested, I can do so but would need an OPFOR for our spaceborne human invasion. I am assuming that they will be equipped with book standard mecha and I can whip up some numbers for maneuver, combat support and support forces but will have to know the following things:
Size of planet
Amount of Invid or rogue Masters/Zentraedi
locations of enemy forces and the terrain they will fight on
space forces, aerospace forces, ground forces, naval forces (which they should have...it is just dumb to ignore naval warfare in space centric sci-fi...)
Native population and their feelings towards Invid/Masters/Zentraedi/Humans and other races

-STS

Why not use one of the REF outposts featured in the old REF field guide (page #46)? Or the base on page 48?

Finding REF force mix is easy to find or extrapolate. Finding the force mix for an Invid force holding a planet is not so easy...that was what I was looking for...

-STS

jedi078 wrote:This thread is turning into the age old 'Army vs Marine' debate. Yes both branches have overlapping duties, but there are others in which they don't overlap.

Personally I don't know why people have so much hate when it comes to utilizing the term 'Marine' for the UEEF's ground combat element.

Agreed.

Us Marines are very particular when some chowderhead tries to regulate us to "infantry is infantry."

Deckard1973 wrote:

jedi078 wrote:This thread is turning into the age old 'Army vs Marine' debate. Yes both branches have overlapping duties, but there are others in which they don't overlap.

Personally I don't know why people have so much hate when it comes to utilizing the term 'Marine' for the UEEF's ground combat element.

Agreed.

Us Marines are very particular when some chowderhead tries to regulate us to "infantry is infantry."

Well Army types are rather irritated about it as well...there are lot of different types of infantry...and they are NOT the same.

-STS

Gentleman, please remember the whole thought and context that included, "with the right Commanders intent and NCO knowhow, you can train the raw material (I'm talking about the recruits/soldiers/or whatever else you want to call them) to act how you need them to, no matter the name." I should also have added with the right motivation.

It just seems more futurist and progressive to me to have a single unified service. That's the way I'd do it is all I'm saying, I don't like the idea of UEEF sub services. Unless they need more bar fights or generals/admirals bickering come budget time. I mean if we really wanted to bring traditions in from old earth governments we could also add the UEEF Panzerwaffe (for the destroid forces) or UEEF Coldstream Guards.

I'm assuming the UEEF marines will be something like Royal Marine Commandos for space.

Chris0013 wrote:I am just hoping the new mecha is not crappy.

Amen to that.

I just use the old Sentinels stuff.....but it could be the Mospeada "Destroids". I hope not as other than the Tiger they suck large.

I kinda liked the Sentinels destroids, except the Excaliber. The original was far superior to the Sentinels. The REF Radar-X, Spartan and Gladiator were pretty cool though. MAC III wasn't bad.

I like the look of this one - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XdP6Lp2ceqY/Sz2IBNRjd4I/AAAAAAAAF3s/32kcmBJ5CUw/s400/mospeada7.PNG

Yeah that one is smaller and sort of like a super cyclone PA type thing iirc

I would not be surprised if some of the mecha from the Imai files end up with stats int he UEEF Marines book.

I'd be down with that for a few of those

Jerell wrote:I kinda liked the Sentinels destroids, except the Excaliber. The original was far superior to the Sentinels. The REF Radar-X, Spartan and Gladiator were pretty cool though. MAC III wasn't bad.

I like the look of this one - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XdP6Lp2ceqY/Sz2IBNRjd4I/AAAAAAAAF3s/32kcmBJ5CUw/s400/mospeada7.PNG

looks to be a similar size as a Logan.. would be an awesome mini-destroid for the marine book.. especially since it looks to have full flight ability or at least super-jump ability.. making it able to be dropped from orbit under its own power. hat would be wonderfully heinlein-esque.