Inertial Compensators in Robotech mecha by 2022

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

"The impact....I'm gonna black out.....There, stabilizers finally kicked in. That's got her back on track."

Hmmm....stabilizers? This dialogue would seem to indicate that Robotech mecha had inertial compensators of some sort by 2022 to keep the pilot from croaking during a hard shift. Yes, I know its a simulator, but presumably, if they have anti-grav, they could easily pin Baker to the seat of his fighter during the simulation by shifting his relation to the plane of gravity (and increase the level of gravity acting upon him). Rather advanced bit of technology and one that should reduce potential pilot fatalities in combat during hard climbs/dives and such.

Time marker 3:19

Robotech 2: The Sentinels part 1/10

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmmm....stabilizers? This dialogue would seem to indicate that Robotech mecha had inertial compensators of some sort by 2022 to keep the pilot from croaking during a hard shift.

Sorry, but no... it's pretty obvious from the animation and the context of his remarks that he's talking about stabilization of a more traditional sort. At the time, his fighter is shown to be literally cartwheeling through the sky. Once the "stabilizers kick in", his flight path becomes progressively more linear until he's back in something approximating level flight and thus no longer being subjected to the high g-forces of that graceless cartwheel. His very next line says that "[the stabilizers] got her back on track". That's not inertial damping... that's nothing more than a stability augmentation system, a very real (and entirely mundane) piece of technology.

(Heck, at the time, we even see he's apparently in a dutch roll... which is one of the flight instabilities an SAS is commonly used to prevent in commercial aircraft.)

Why would the Alpha, whose flight performance is no better than many modern jet fighters, need inertial damping? Pilots in the real world get by just fine without an inertial damper.

Even then, a mecha-scale gravity control system isn't something humanity has ever apparently had... the hover vehicles in the Masters Saga are using thrust to achieve their hover effect. It's only the Masters who are ever shown using anti-grav systems on their mecha, and only then for lift, not propulsion or inertial damping or anything else. (The Biover/hover sleds have a visible set of exhaust nozzles in their line art.) Robotech's stats actually deleted the one inertial damper that existed in the source material... the Queadluun-Rau's IVCS. Just as well, really, since if they had kept it it'd be a massive plot hole in the Shadow Saga (since it uses dimensional shifting in the OSM).

[Colonel Wolfe]

Looks like a repeat of the Anti-grav tech found on the Spartas, its easy to see that a 58,000 pound Spartas is able to fly and glide along the grouns with thrusters smaller than those found on the logan. either those are the most powerful thrusters in Robotech, or part of the hover system involves anti-grav tech.
Humanity has had access to anti-grave tech for nearly a quarter century by the time Jack is using the simulator, its not that hard to think the Alpha has some kind of Anti-grav and Inertial compensation.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Humanity has had access to anti-grave tech for nearly a quarter century by the time Jack is using the simulator, its not that hard to think the Alpha has some kind of Anti-grav and Inertial compensation.

Ayep. Like I said, the dialogue seems to show that since Jack clearly states its the explosion that affected the Alpha and its resulting tumble that was causing him to start to black out. Inertial compensation would be relatively easy since we know they have anti-grav built into the Spartas as well. That's a considerable bit of advanced technology built into Robotech mecha. Thinking about this further, it may even mean that the Alpha (and other 2nd and 3rd Generation Robotech fighters) performance profiles only reflect what the engine output is and not the total performance boosted with anti-grav. 'Short legs in space' would seem to mean it cannot go interplanetary (1 AU or more), where a trip to the Moon and back, such as in The Shadow Chronicles, could be easily accomplished in a short time.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Humanity has had access to anti-grave tech for nearly a quarter century by the time Jack is using the simulator, its not that hard to think the Alpha has some kind of Anti-grav and Inertial compensation.

Ayep. Like I said, the dialogue seems to show that since Jack clearly states its the explosion that affected the Alpha and its resulting tumble that was causing him to start to black out. Inertial compensation would be relatively easy since we know they have anti-grav built into the Spartas as well. That's a considerable bit of advanced technology built into Robotech mecha. Thinking about this further, it may even mean that the Alpha (and other 2nd and 3rd Generation Robotech fighters) performance profiles only reflect what the engine output is and not the total performance boosted with anti-grav. 'Short legs in space' would seem to mean it cannot go interplanetary (1 AU or more), where a trip to the Moon and back, such as in The Shadow Chronicles, could be easily accomplished in a short time.

Well, its not uncommon for some to purposefully misconstrue wording to imply yhings that just aren't true.
in the vastness of Space, Short-legs could be to the moon and back, but unable to get to Mars or Venus alone. even in MOSPEDA the Beta was added to allow the Legios to make the Trip from Mars to Earth on its on if necessary.
Taking Anti-grav out of the Spartas Equation means that the ASc has developed thruster technology lightyears beyond that of the Macross era, and the Speeds of the ASC flying mecha and fighters should be adjusted to reflect so, Much like the Logan's mach 6 in the 1st edition rpg.

[Seto Kaiba]

Inertial compensation would be relatively easy since we know they have anti-grav built into the Spartas as well.

Anti-gravity technology is not mentioned in connection with the Spartas hover tank or any human mecha. In fact, the very name of the mecha "hover tank", contradicts the notion of antigravity's involvement. By definition, to hover it to use physical force (i.e. thrust) to suspend an object against gravity. We see only too plainly in the series that the hover tank is using thrust... if it wasn't, it wouldn't be shown kicking up clouds of dust when it lifts off.

The amount of thrust required to lift even an object as heavy as a Spartas isn't all that great... and is easily within what we know extremely small engines of the same period were capable of. (In fact, the Alpha's sub-engines, weak as they are, can provide more thrust than is actually necessary to get the Spartas aloft to an altitude of at least 1m. As fusion turbines do appear to provide greater output than protoculture at the expense of lower endurance... well, the rest should be obvious.)

That's a considerable bit of advanced technology built into Robotech mecha.

If it was, it would be... but it isn't, so it's not.

The only interpretation of the dialogue that actually fits with aviation terminology, the visuals presented in the animation, and the wording of the dialogue, is that the "stabilizers" are exactly what the name implies... an airframe stabilizer, not an inertial damper. Inertial damping wouldn't stop the airframe from cartwheeling, and the dialogue clearly indicates that the stabilizers, not the pilot, were what got the plane back under control and on course.

[ShadowLogan]

I have to agree with Seto in principle w/re to the stabilizers in Sentinels OVA pointing toward inertia dampers. Lancer in "Dark Finale" makes a similar statement ("My gyro stabilizers are shot I can't get myself turned right side up") when his Alpha Battloid goes into a head first dive and Sera rescues him. That to me suggests Baker is in fact referring the "gyro stabilizers" Lancer does and not inertia damper technology in a loose short-hand type of way.

Why would the Alpha, whose flight performance is no better than many modern jet fighters, need inertial damping? Pilots in the real world get by just fine without an inertial damper.

Pilots are also wearing G-suits, have training, and even then there is still an upper-limit to what they can endure (~9G) which is actually less than the airframe itself could handle in maneuvers. So an inertial dampening technology would be desirable even in modern jet fighters as it could allow the fighter to execute maneuvers that would disable the pilot before the plane.

Inertial compensation would be relatively easy since we know they have anti-grav built into the Spartas as well.

Do we really? I don't recall it being clearly stated anywhere in the dialogue that they have anti-gravity built into the spartas.

There is no need for anti-gravity, PC, or fusion to achieve hovercraft technology like we see in the show. They would be nice for a variety of reasons, but are not required to explain what we see.

its easy to see that a 58,000 pound Spartas is able to fly and glide along the grouns with thrusters smaller than those found on the logan

Yes it is, because the Logan is ~4x faster than the Spartas at Sea Level, but with ~1/4 the mass (sans wings, they are about the same size). It really looks like a trade of speed for extra mass (basically). As for physical size of the thrusters, they look to be similar in size to me, and given the Spartas engines probably don't have the same requirements as the Logan's it is possible the Logan's engines are larger to accommodate "fighter" requirements as opposed to "hovercraft" requirements.

Taking Anti-grav out of the Spartas Equation means that the ASc has developed thruster technology lightyears beyond that of the Macross era, and the Speeds of the ASC flying mecha and fighters should be adjusted to reflect so, Much like the Logan's mach 6 in the 1st edition rpg.

1E Logan was Mach 4.6 top speed (atmosphere, space was slower at Mach 4) not Mach 6 (your thinking of the Chimera fighter).

While I do think later generations need to have their speeds adjusted, it is the result of the fact that in their Battloid form they are without exception faster than a VF-1 (Same mode) in all cases (to varying amounts) in an unaerdynamic mode (dependent on raw thrust to stay aloft) all while (generally) being heavier than the Valk which means they either have additional hard to spot drag reduction technologies in play (which could be used in F mode to alter their apparent F mode properties) or they have much greater thrust available to overcome drag.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The Spartas has no notable Skirting that air cushioned vehicles/Hover Craft use today.
Even the Sci-fi definition of a hover-tank is a tank equipped with Anti-Garv.
having worked around a hover-craft, the amount of air flow put off by the unit is crazy and in the desert environments of the ASC would have left much larger dust cloud than those shown in the show.
The VHT lacks the proper shape to even created the high=pressure area to create the lift necessary to lift 58,000 pounds. and have zero Elements in common with modern Skit-less hovercrafts.
The Existence of anti-G-tech on board the SDf-1, the massive amounts used by the Zents, The hover-platform they use is 39,000 pounds and can carry over 220,000 pounds, miniaturized versions of this Tech should easily be able to assist in holding up less than 1/4th that.
for the Ajax Hover-Copter to affectingly use its Copter mode, some type of anti-G must be at work to hold a 37,000 pound copter alot on the 4 puny blades.
The 17,000 pound Apache Helicopter has a Roter diameter over x2 that of the Agac (48f x 23 ft.).
The Skirtless Hover-trucks and Cars in the show... honestly no one in the show is going to specifically point out they use what is a extremely common technology in monument city.

[Seto Kaiba]

I have to agree with Seto in principle w/re to the stabilizers in Sentinels OVA pointing toward inertia dampers. Lancer in "Dark Finale" makes a similar statement ("My gyro stabilizers are shot I can't get myself turned right side up") when his Alpha Battloid goes into a head first dive and Sera rescues him.

In an aviation (or even maritime navigation) context, "stabilizers" means one and only one thing... a mechanism that acts upon the craft to provide a controlled, stable course. In this case, it's a pretty obvious stability augmentation system, a technology that's been around for bloody ages.

Pilots are also wearing G-suits, have training, and even then there is still an upper-limit to what they can endure (~9G) which is actually less than the airframe itself could handle in maneuvers.

That's a sustained 9G that is the upper limit of human endurance... humans can actually tolerate more with the right mechanical assistance and/or short durations. There are plenty of other options for improving the pilot's ability to endure high g-forces besides the inertia-damping technology the Robotech universe doesn't have. (I've read some rather interesting papers involving the use of electromagnetics, lasers, and a few other things to increase the body's endurance to high-g conditions in the short term.)

Inertial compensation would be relatively easy since we know they have anti-grav built into the Spartas as well.

Do we really? I don't recall it being clearly stated anywhere in the dialogue that they have anti-gravity built into the spartas.

No, we do not.

In actual fact, not only do the official Robotech stats not make any mention or implication of anti-grav technology in the Spartas' drive train, the RPG asserts that both the hover bike and hover tank are applications of entirely conventional hovercraft technology. Nothing more, nothing less. Even the uRRG agrees that the Spartas is staying aloft purely on the mechanically-generated lift provided by its engines. The series itself depicts the Spartas units kicking up dust when they engage their hover units... something an anti-gravity skimmer shouldn't do.

its easy to see that a 58,000 pound Spartas is able to fly and glide along the grouns with thrusters smaller than those found on the logan

Yes it is, because the Logan is ~4x faster than the Spartas at Sea Level, but with ~1/4 the mass (sans wings, they are about the same size). It really looks like a trade of speed for extra mass (basically). As for physical size of the thrusters, they look to be similar in size to me, and given the Spartas engines probably don't have the same requirements as the Logan's it is possible the Logan's engines are larger to accommodate "fighter" requirements as opposed to "hovercraft" requirements.

Surprisingly enough, the Spartas' engines would only need to be about as powerful as the Alpha's sub-engines to achieve the hover performance we see in the series, based purely on thrust-to-weight ratios and the characteristics of a modern unskirted hover vehicle. That's well within reason, considering the generally superior output of fusion turbines (which you could say is achieved at the cost of operation time).


EDIT: Incidentally, if one thinks that a hovercraft REQUIRES a skirt to operate... there are several decades worth of old and new concept vehicles that rather handily disprove this, going back as far as the Avro Canada VZ-9 Avrocar from the late 50s to the more recent (late 90s, early 2000s) Moller M200 Neuera.

[ShadowLogan]

The Spartas has no notable Skirting that air cushioned vehicles/Hover Craft use today.

Said skirting though is not a requirement for hovercraft/aircushion vehicles even today unless you think we have regressed technologically in this area from the 50s. What the skirt does is improve efficiency. Due to the VHT's transformation, I can see why it wouldn't be used (less so for conventional platforms).

The Existence of anti-G-tech on board the SDf-1, the massive amounts used by the Zents, The hover-platform they use is 39,000 pounds and can carry over 220,000 pounds, miniaturized versions of this Tech should easily be able to assist in holding up less than 1/4th that.

That there is anti-gravity/gravity control technology in Robotech is not the issue. The issue is if they could actually miniaturize it for use by human mecha. All the known examples humans would have access to are on much larger platforms.

the amount of air flow put off by the unit is crazy and in the desert environments of the ASC would have left much larger dust cloud than those shown in the show.
The VHT lacks the proper shape to even created the high=pressure area to create the lift necessary to lift 58,000 pounds.

That doesn't automatically point toward anti-gravity/gravity control technology on the platform(s) in question. They could simply be using a form of magnetic levitation, Animation Error/Physics (or estimation on what's necessary by viewer), or other "mudane" approaches to achieve that effect that don't require jumping up to the exotic anti-gravity (even though the basic technology is available) solution.

or the Ajax Hover-Copter to affectingly use its Copter mode, some type of anti-G must be at work to hold a 37,000 pound copter alot on the 4 puny blades.

Not necessarily.
1st, the AGAC in chopper mode is more of a compound helicopter than a pure helicopter due to the traditional wing in the design because the wing itself takes some of the load off the rotor system (this may be limited to forward flight and not hover/vertical).
2nd, we have no actual demonstration of the mode in question to gauge actual effectiveness.
3rd, the AGAC might supplement the rotor with thrust from its engines to stay aloft. (the Rotors do have thrusters in them, as Battloid mode shows, and the RSRA was to use thrust in place of twisting the blades)
4th, the AGAC uses contra-rotating blades (which increase performance compared to tail rotor in the same design).

In an aviation (or even maritime navigation) context, "stabilizers" means one and only one thing... a mechanism that acts upon the craft to provide a controlled, stable course. In this case, it's a pretty obvious stability augmentation system, a technology that's been around for bloody ages.

Agree the function means one thing, but there are a variety of "stabilizers" that could be loosely referred to. I agree with you in principle the stabilizer is mundane in this case, but the means the "stabilizer" uses may be different. I point to Lancer's reference to gyro-stabilizers, but you may or may not have some other stabilizer method in mind that regained control of the craft as you left stabilizer in a vague general sense in your posts. That is why I put the qualifier on my statement like I did.

That's a sustained 9G that is the upper limit of human endurance... humans can actually tolerate more with the right mechanical assistance and/or short durations.

Agree. Still the use of inertial control would allow a human to pilot a machine into a much higher sustained G load than he/she could otherwise do relative to an external observer (relative to them they would experience a lower G load). In other words, there is a reason to put the basic inertial control technology in place IF one could.

In actual fact, not only do the official Robotech stats not make any mention or implication of anti-grav technology in the Spartas' drive train, the RPG asserts that both the hover bike and hover tank are applications of entirely conventional hovercraft technology. Nothing more, nothing less. Even the uRRG agrees that the Spartas is staying aloft purely on the mechanically-generated lift provided by its engines. The series itself depicts the Spartas units kicking up dust when they engage their hover units... something an anti-gravity skimmer shouldn't do.

I'm aware of all of this. I want to know what explicitly makes the VHT an example of using anti-gravity technology use and not something more mundane that can also be an explanation for what is shown. To date, neither RSCF or Col. Wofe have shown what explicitly requires the use of the technology to explain what is shown.

[jaymz]

I'll stick hover being hover and not anti-grav myself. Introducing said tech to the Spartas not only to me is inaccurate, it also opens a whole slew on holes into the tech base across the board.

[Seto Kaiba]

They could simply be using a form of magnetic levitation, Animation Error/Physics (or estimation on what's necessary by viewer), or other "mudane" approaches to achieve that effect that don't require jumping up to the exotic anti-gravity (even though the basic technology is available) solution.

Indeed, there are numerous other conventional technologies that could be applied to assist a thrust-based hover system in the hovertank. All the same, the RPG seems to assert that the hover vehicles used by the Southern Cross are hovering by means of thrust alone.

Agree the function means one thing, but there are a variety of "stabilizers" that could be loosely referred to.

Exactly, which is why I made a precise statement of the most likely suspect in my original post... a stability augmentation system.

I point to Lancer's reference to gyro-stabilizers, but you may or may not have some other stabilizer method in mind that regained control of the craft as you left stabilizer in a vague general sense in your posts. That is why I put the qualifier on my statement like I did.

My guess here would be that Lancer is using "gyro-stabilizers" to refer to the inevitable "auto-balancer" that every robot in the real robot genre seems to require some form of. Basically a SAS, but for all three modes. Gundam calls it AMBAC, Macross calls it ANGIRAS or ARIEL depending on the plane, and so on.

Agree. Still the use of inertial control would allow a human to pilot a machine into a much higher sustained G load than he/she could otherwise do relative to an external observer (relative to them they would experience a lower G load). In other words, there is a reason to put the basic inertial control technology in place IF one could.

True, but one would imagine they would resort to every conventional approach before resorting to something exotic (and undoubtedly expensive) like an inertial damper. Then there's always the question of what kind of inertial damper... there's several different kinds throughout sci-fi, but as force fields are a commodity Robotech reserves for starships, and a Macross style inertial displacement system uses dimension shifting, that narrows the field A LOT. Robotech's technical setting doesn't really contain any of the staples that would permit the installation of a small-scale inertial damper on a fighter or other combat robot.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Said skirting though is not a requirement for hovercraft/aircushion vehicles even today unless you think we have regressed technologically in this area from the 50s. What the skirt does is improve efficiency. Due to the VHT's transformation, I can see why it wouldn't be used (less so for conventional platforms).

Very few traditional Hover craft are 58,000 pounds with a lower surface area under 200sq feet. Skirted hover-crafts with a similar area weigh under a ton. The Closest HoverCrafts to the VHT in dimensions still has 4x the surface area coverage and weight 1/4th the weight, and only hovers 6 inches off the ground.

That doesn't automatically point toward anti-gravity/gravity control technology on the platform(s) in question. They could simply be using a form of magnetic levitation, Animation Error/Physics (or estimation on what's necessary by viewer), or other "mudane" approaches to achieve that effect that don't require jumping up to the exotic anti-gravity (even though the basic technology is available) solution.

Anti-grav isn't exotic in Robotech, infact it's a relatively mundane technology in Robotech.

I'm aware of all of this. I want to know what explicitly makes the VHT an example of using anti-gravity technology use and not something more mundane that can also be an explanation for what is shown. To date, neither RSCF or Col. Wofe have shown what explicitly requires the use of the technology to explain what is shown.

Physics are Physichs, and the VHt would be unable to hover an inch off the ground, much less the 20ft listed in the RPG using traditional technology. and the AGAC is in a similar boat with its helicopter mode. Anti-Grav isn't a advanced or exotic technology in a universe with space-folding or 8m giants.
Honestly, IDC how you want to think it happens, this is my interpretation of the technology shown in the series, this can go round and round but its not going to alter my opinion on the subject. and the RPG's non-canon nature compared to the TV series is well preached by some on this forum.

[ShadowLogan]

Exactly, which is why I made a precise statement of the most likely suspect in my original post... a stability augmentation system.

Yes, but I don't think you are reading me clearly.

F=m*a, you are focused on the F part (end result) in the equation, I'm looking at what m or a might actually be to get F. Not sure if this helps or not.

Robotech's technical setting doesn't really contain any of the staples that would permit the installation of a small-scale inertial damper on a fighter or other combat robot.

I'm not sure on that. Certainly in 2020s that would be the case for humans by all indications, but by the 2040s that appears to be less so since the Shadow Device is used to mask gravity on the N-S warheads and for the Nichol's Maneuver. As you said previously, the OSM SDF:M Zent FPA uses dimensional shifts to achieve the effect, and the shadow device uses dimensional shifts (and TY loves to Macross-ize RT)...

True, but one would imagine they would resort to every conventional approach before resorting to something exotic (and undoubtedly expensive) like an inertial damper.

Depends on what they might be able to get out of the system itself in other roles. If it is limited in impact to simply inertia management, a more conventional approach is warranted unless it has distinct advantages over them. However, if said device also has other attributes that those conventional systems don't and the cost isn't out there (for all the features than going conventional) it could make it more attractive as compared to conventional systems.

Very few traditional Hover craft are 58,000 pounds with a lower surface area under 200sq feet. Skirted hover-crafts with a similar area weigh under a ton. The Closest HoverCrafts to the VHT in dimensions still has 4x the surface area coverage and weight 1/4th the weight, and only hovers 6 inches off the ground.

You are making the assumption that the VHT is attempting to use air cushion technology to hover, when it could be using raw thrust alone (ex AV-8B, X-32) to achieve the same ends.

Anti-grav isn't exotic in Robotech, infact it's a relatively mundane technology in Robotech.

In Robotech, no it is still an exotic technology as it is only common place on platforms larger than the ones that are being looked at. Even the Master's Bioroid hoversleds are larger than a VHT, and their other hoverplatforms may simply be magnetic levitation as they are only seen used inside the ship.

Physics are Physichs, and the VHt would be unable to hover an inch off the ground, much less the 20ft listed in the RPG using traditional technology. and the AGAC is in a similar boat with its helicopter mode. Anti-Grav isn't a advanced or exotic technology in a universe with space-folding or 8m giants.

Neither mecha have to resort to anti-gravity to achieve their demonstrated and stated abilities. The problem with using AnG technology on mecha, is that it should result in no need for the numerous conventional thrusters we see said units using.

this is my interpretation of the technology shown in the series, this can go round and round but its not going to alter my opinion on the subject. and the RPG's non-canon nature compared to the TV series is well preached by some on this forum.

Are you sure your interpretation isn't biased toward a certain end result even if there are more plausible explanations?

Even the TV series doesn't make a clear statement that the AGAC/VHT (or even later mecha) actually utilize anti-gravity technology.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Very few traditional Hover craft are 58,000 pounds with a lower surface area under 200sq feet. Skirted hover-crafts with a similar area weigh under a ton. The Closest HoverCrafts to the VHT in dimensions still has 4x the surface area coverage and weight 1/4th the weight, and only hovers 6 inches off the ground.

You are making the assumption that the VHT is attempting to use air cushion technology to hover, when it could be using raw thrust alone (ex AV-8B, X-32) to achieve the same ends.

These planes you use as examples both weight less than the VHT, and are Much larger and weigh much less...
The VHT is 6m x 2.25m x 2.7 m weights 58,000 pounds
the X-32 is 13.7 m x 11m x 5.3 m weights 38,000 pounds, engines producing -43,000 LBF
The AV-8B is 14.2 m x 9.5 m x 3.5 m weight 20,700 pounds, engine producing -23,000 LbF
and neither one of these are Hover-vehicles. and both have huge intakes and huge thrusters that are much larger than the ones on the Hover-tank.
and here we are comparing Tanks to Planes.. to show a tank can hover...

see before this was brought up, and I said that the VHT is going to need an engine more powerful than the ones on the VF-1 to perform this thrust-alone hover... I was then shown examples of skirtless hover-crafts that have a extremely low thrust to weight ration... that look nothing like the VHT but create an air-cushion to hover... as proof that it wouldn't.

[Seto Kaiba]

F=m*a, you are focused on the F part (end result) in the equation, [...]

Nah, I'm focused on the best-fit explanation that explains what we see with as few what-ifs and open-ended questions as possible.

I'm not sure on that. Certainly in 2020s that would be the case for humans by all indications, but by the 2040s that appears to be less so since the Shadow Device is used to mask gravity on the N-S warheads and for the Nichol's Maneuver.

Eh... yes and no. It's worth remembering that, in the Shadow Chronicles, one of the big bullet points surrounding the "shadow technology" thing is that humanity uses it but has no clue how it actually works. Being able to apply the shadow fields to mask a high-intensity gravitational field is one thing, and being able to combine it with a fold effect to isolate the field's contents from an outside gravitational source is a step in the right direction... but there's nothing the franchise has yet given evidence of that would allow them to selectively counter acceleration g-forces on a platform too small to boast any kind of gravity control system or fold system.

As you said previously, the OSM SDF:M Zent FPA uses dimensional shifts to achieve the effect, and the shadow device uses dimensional shifts (and TY loves to Macross-ize RT)...

True, which at least theoretically puts the invention of an inertial damper within the grasp of the Haydonites... who, as an apparently robotic/cybernetic race whose own military hardware doesn't seem to outperform the Alpha, would have almost no practical application for the technology. They're also apparently the most technologically proficient race left in the RT setting.

Then again, the Macross Quimeliquola Queadluun-Rau's inertia vector control system doesn't really fit the definition of an inertial damper... it's more an inertia capacitor. It's not countering the acceleration g-forces, it's merely displacing the g-forces that exceed the pilot's bodily tolerances by converting it into a different type of energy (into dimensional shift energy) and storing it temporarily. Once the g-force load on the airframe drops, the energy is restored to the airframe in a controlled fashion. (Yes, it's observing conservation of energy.) The IVCS is a big part of the reason the Queadluun-Rau's so rare... it's a high-complexity system that's difficult to manufacture. Even once the humans got their grubby mitts on it, the system was only adopted on one model of limited-production fighter because it was too expensive and its performance wasn't quite enough to meet the UN Forces' needs.

You are making the assumption that the VHT is attempting to use air cushion technology to hover, when it could be using raw thrust alone (ex AV-8B, X-32) to achieve the same ends.

He is making a sound assumption on that front... at least with respect to the RPG. The Masters Saga sourcebook asserts that the hover bike and hover tanks are riding on an engine-generated air cushion effect. (The relevant text is actually in the hover bike's entry in the book, under its propulsion system and speed entries.) Admittedly, raw thrust makes the most sense, since the engine power necessary to make it work is entirely within humanity's grasp and was for at least a decade before we saw the Spartas for the first time. On a modern hovercraft, a couple kilonewtons of thrust is a big deal... on a craft in Robotech, ask for a couple kilonewtons of thrust and they'll tell you "Take forty, they're small!". After all, we ARE talking about a setting where, on a first-generation design, a 200kN+ engine was no object, and even the Alpha's sub engines would've been enough to get an F-14 aloft.

Even the TV series doesn't make a clear statement that the AGAC/VHT (or even later mecha) actually utilize anti-gravity technology.

Does the TV show mention ANYTHING about that? I don't recall it even mentioning that the Biovers are using anti-gravity.

(The OSM at least says that the Spartas is getting 'round on lift alone.)

[ShadowLogan]

Nah, I'm focused on the best-fit explanation that explains what we see with as few what-ifs and open-ended questions as possible.

85ep though does provide a best fit explanation for what we see/hear in Sent OVA, no real what-if/open-end that requires one to be as vague though.

Eh... yes and no. It's worth remembering that, in the Shadow Chronicles, one of the big bullet points surrounding the "shadow technology" thing is that humanity uses it but has no clue how it actually works.[...]

Agree that humanity doesn't know how it works exactly, but they do know what it is doing (or at least they think they do given the comment about the technology not working if the math didn't checkout in a conversation between Janice/Louie).

True, which at least theoretically puts the invention of an inertial damper within the grasp of the Haydonites... who, as an apparently robotic/cybernetic race whose own military hardware doesn't seem to outperform the Alpha, would have almost no practical application for the technology. They're also apparently the most technologically proficient race left in the RT setting.

It also puts it in within the grasp of anyone with access to their Shadow Technology. And the UEEF would have to be complete idiots to get rid of all data/hardware on the technology without doing additional research to see what they could salvage.

Though its hard to rate the Masters tech level, as they where running on empty and may be avoiding the flashier (and more costly) options. They did manage to sneak a large vessel down to the surface ("half-moon") undetected, so their stealth tech isn't anything to dismiss. Their Bio-Magnetic Induction Network is orders above propulsion systems we see in use on all other known ships (Haydonite included).

Does the TV show mention ANYTHING about that? I don't recall it even mentioning that the Biovers are using anti-gravity.

Off hand no.

The Bioroid hovercraft the one instance that I thought it might be came up negative ("Danger Zone" came up only as "hovercraft"). Though with the Hoversled, it is still larger than a VHT (and most human mecha, save maybe the Beta VF and Monster-class nt-mecha) so may be at the lower end of the size that it can be produced at. Something else to consider is the amount of energy required to actually run a system like this.

see before this was brought up, and I said that the VHT is going to need an engine more powerful than the ones on the VF-1 to perform this thrust-alone hover... I was then shown examples of skirtless hover-crafts that have a extremely low thrust to weight ration... that look nothing like the VHT but create an air-cushion to hover... as proof that it wouldn't.

With regard to thrust. There are several things you seem to have failed to consider:
1. Well if we use OSM numbers, no the VHT would not need more powerful engines. The VF-1A engines have a T/W ratio of between 1.24-3.47 depending on configuration of the mecha (per Seto's link to the Macross Mecha Manual). The VHT's mass is ~2x that of the VF-1 (both dry per RT.com infopedia), so the VHT could do the job using the existing VF-1 engine in a paired setup. Even if we toss out OSM specs for limited RT.com infopedia specs see pt5.

2. One could use multiple engines of lower thrust value to achieve the same ends as a single powerful engine. The VHT is shown to have at least 4 ports (IINM), indicating 4 engines. And multiple engines are the norm for full-sized Veritechs (non-PA).

3. disregarding size of the engine for a moment, humans have built a 1.5million lb thrust engine in the 1960s, so there is no need to resort to anti-gravity to lift something as heavy as a VHT. It's a rocket-engine (F-1 on Sat-5), but there are jet engines that can also put out the necessary thrust today or better (higher 7x7 series engines, C-17, transports for sure), if we go with multi-engine configuration (as in #2) there are plenty of other options to get to the required thrust

4. EVERY Battloid (VF or nt) with flight characteristic in that mode would be in the same boat the VHT transport mode is in, they all rely on raw thrust to stay aloft/hover (just like the X-32, AV-8B examples and a few others I could point to) and fly, indicating that in Robotech they do have engine power available to do what they say they do

5. The VFB-7/9 Beta has more mass than a VF-1 OR VHT-1 (all dry), and that is the Beta w/o the Alpha (which adds ~56% more). So engine technology is certainly present to handle something as massive as a VHT, and IINM we do see the Beta using VTOL (w/o G mode), so the technology is definitely there. While the Beta of NG post dates the VHT, it shows that w/n the lifetime of the VHT (Beta-7 in 2022 OVA) requisite engine technology existed.

As for skirtless hovercraft: Did you see the Hiller Flying platform or other flying jeep/platforms from the 50s? The Hiller platform can actually fly higher than the VHT (listed). They also have a flying jeep(s) from the period.

[jaymz]

Eh I still say simple answer is, thrust alone to make things simple. Leave A/G for ships.....

[glitterboy2098]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SERvwWALOM <- airgeep. limits of 1950's tech forced use of large ducted fans instead of compact jets.

X-hawk by Urban Aeronautics of Israel. modern take on the concept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FFIW3qX3jI <-- air mule drone using X-hawk design.

note the above actually have oversized engines to allow for higher flight ceilings.. if they wanted to stay only within 20-30 feet of the ground they could get by with fans a fraction of the size since the ground effect would add some boost.

Hiller Flying platform.. smaller vehicle using the same principles. note the ceiling limit.
<-- Williams X-jet. balanced on the thrust of a tomahawk cruise missile engine. this is basically how the VHT would work. effectively ducted thrust off a jet engine, similar to the Harrier (the harrier actually benefits from ground effect when landing.. one reason landing can be tricky for first timers.)

[Seto Kaiba]

85ep though does provide a best fit explanation for what we see/hear in Sent OVA, no real what-if/open-end that requires one to be as vague though.

's the same answer though... a computer-aided stabilization system. We took two different routes and came to the same destination.

It also puts it in within the grasp of anyone with access to their Shadow Technology.

Only if they understand the technology and know how to adapt it to their own purposes... which is, at present, a little bit beyond what humanity is able to do.

With regard to thrust. There are several things you seem to have failed to consider:
1. Well if we use OSM numbers, no the VHT would not need more powerful engines. The VF-1A engines have a T/W ratio of between 1.24-3.47 depending on configuration of the mecha (per Seto's link to the Macross Mecha Manual). The VHT's mass is ~2x that of the VF-1 (both dry per RT.com infopedia), so the VHT could do the job using the existing VF-1 engine in a paired setup. Even if we toss out OSM specs for limited RT.com infopedia specs see pt5.

Actually, it could do it with less... a hovercraft, even one without a skirt, doesn't need a thrust-to-weight ratio in excess of 1 to get properly aloft and maneuver. You could probably make it work with the rough equivalent of the Alpha's four smaller sub-engines (which are REALLY small, according to OSM cutaways, and could easily fit inside the Spartas' frame). I believe some of the military's experimental ducted-fan "flying saucer" type hovercraft had T/W ratios as low as 0.6.

2. One could use multiple engines of lower thrust value to achieve the same ends as a single powerful engine. The VHT is shown to have at least 4 ports (IINM), indicating 4 engines. And multiple engines are the norm for full-sized Veritechs (non-PA).

4 engines at ~41kN/ea should be sufficient to achieve a limited hover capacity, and is entirely achievable within the constraints of the technology we know to be in existence at that point. (That gets the Spartas to a T/W ratio of 0.63.)

[ShadowLogan]

s the same answer though... a computer-aided stabilization system. We took two different routes and came to the same destination.

I agree we came to the same conclusion (the principle), and we took different routes and provided differing levels of evidence. I looked outside the scene to see if it was repeated and if it could shed light on the matter. You focued on the scene only.

Only if they understand the technology and know how to adapt it to their own purposes... which is, at present, a little bit beyond what humanity is able to do.

Which may vary from individual to individual. I would point out that the Nichol's manuever was worked out on the fly, so we already are seeing humans able to adapt the technology for their own purposes, even with the math being (apparently) incorrect.

Actually, it could do it with less... a hovercraft, even one without a skirt, doesn't need a thrust-to-weight ratio in excess of 1 to get properly aloft and maneuver. You could probably make it work with the rough equivalent of the Alpha's four smaller sub-engines (which are REALLY small, according to OSM cutaways, and could easily fit inside the Spartas' frame). I believe some of the military's experimental ducted-fan "flying saucer" type hovercraft had T/W ratios as low as 0.6.

Considering Col. Wolfe feels that the engines needs to be more powerful than a VF-1 to achieve lift though (implying T/W ratio of 1>) because of its excess mass (comapred to VF-1), it can be shown via the VF-1's T/W ratio that a pair of VF-1 engines have sufficient excess capacity to meet the needs of the VHT's heavier frame if one is looking for a T/W ratio greater than 1 (his view).

If I did the math right, the Avro-car works out to 0.66 T/W when empty (numbers per National museum of the US Air Force fact sheet for the Avro-car, available on their website).
Empty: 4620lb
Engines: 3x 927lb (total of 2781lb)

Given we need the VHT to fly 20ft (per 2E RPG), and the Avro-car only delivered 3ft altitude (out of estimated 10,000ft, though the Fact Sheet suggests higher altitudes where achieved but above 3ft it becomes unstable), a higher T/W ratio is in order to get the desired performance I would think.

[Colonel Wolfe]

The VF-1 is a much larger mecha than the VHT, so even if its thrusters could rpduce the same thrust, they have to be much much smaller than the ones found on the VF-1.
if you make a thruster system that is 1/8th the size of the ones on the VF-1 that can maintain the same level of thrust, that system is more powerful.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which may vary from individual to individual. I would point out that the Nichol's manuever was worked out on the fly, so we already are seeing humans able to adapt the technology for their own purposes, even with the math being (apparently) incorrect.

Whether the shadow field was actually necessary for that... we'll probably never know, but I personally doubt it.

Considering Col. Wolfe feels that the engines needs to be more powerful than a VF-1 to achieve lift though (implying T/W ratio of 1>) because of its excess mass (comapred to VF-1), it can be shown via the VF-1's T/W ratio that a pair of VF-1 engines have sufficient excess capacity to meet the needs of the VHT's heavier frame if one is looking for a T/W ratio greater than 1 (his view).

That'd be rather more than is necessary to achieve the actual lift effect required... 2 x 225.55kN would give the Spartas a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.74, easily enough for it to legitimately FLY. It's clearly not capable of that, and should only use enough to get it aloft as a hovercraft. You should be able to easily achieve that using just one VF-1 turbine, or even with the lower-powered 47.07kN engines off the Alpha, which'd get you clear to 0.73, well in excess of what's necessary for its hovercraft capability.

If I did the math right, the Avro-car works out to 0.66 T/W when empty (numbers per National museum of the US Air Force fact sheet for the Avro-car, available on their website).

Somethin' like that, yes...

Given we need the VHT to fly 20ft (per 2E RPG), and the Avro-car only delivered 3ft altitude (out of estimated 10,000ft, though the Fact Sheet suggests higher altitudes where achieved but above 3ft it becomes unstable), a higher T/W ratio is in order to get the desired performance I would think.

's why I suggested the Alpha's engines as a performance benchmark... gives it a nice margin over the top of what's needed and is still plenty small enough to fit gracefully inside the Spartas' chassis. The actual VF-1 engines are much smaller than most people think, and might even be small enough to fit into a Spartas if need be.

[ShadowLogan]

The VF-1 is a much larger mecha than the VHT, so even if its thrusters could rpduce the same thrust, they have to be much much smaller than the ones found on the VF-1.
if you make a thruster system that is 1/8th the size of the ones on the VF-1 that can maintain the same level of thrust, that system is more powerful.

For its size it would certainly be potent and advanced, but comparing the actual performance in that one area (thrust alone) neither engine is really more powerful than the other. Plus when you consider the role the engines are designed for, the VF-1 engine may result in a larger engine because of requirements that the VHT doesn't have to meet resulting in a larger size (VHTs have to be modified to fly in space, so clearly there are diffent attributes in the propulsion system that can influence size that need to be considered).

Whether the shadow field was actually necessary for that... we'll probably never know, but I personally doubt it.

Those involved certainly seemed to think so.

That'd be rather more than is necessary to achieve the actual lift effect required... 2 x 225.55kN would give the Spartas a thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.74, easily enough for it to legitimately FLY. It's clearly not capable of that, and should only use enough to get it aloft as a hovercraft. You should be able to easily achieve that using just one VF-1 turbine, or even with the lower-powered 47.07kN engines off the Alpha, which'd get you clear to 0.73, well in excess of what's necessary for its hovercraft capability.

In actual practice, you are right (I'm not disputing that here). However, looking at it from Wolfe's perspective where "one needs a 1+ T/W ratio", it can be shown that the need for a more powerful engine than the VF-1's Thrust level doesn't really hold up from that perspective.

's why I suggested the Alpha's engines as a performance benchmark... gives it a nice margin over the top of what's needed and is still plenty small enough to fit gracefully inside the Spartas' chassis. The actual VF-1 engines are much smaller than most people think, and might even be small enough to fit into a Spartas if need be.

Give the respective mass involved, I would think the Beta's VTOL would be a better place to start than the Alpha since it's closer to the VHT by mass than an Alpha (once one gets rid of the wings/nose the Alpha might be closer in dimensions though). Really depends on how one looks at this.

[Seto Kaiba]

Whether the shadow field was actually necessary for that... we'll probably never know, but I personally doubt it.

Those involved certainly seemed to think so.

Really, the way Harmony Gold has decided that fold drives work in Robotech... it shouldn't, but they might not understand the physics of what they're working with on a production level.

In actual practice, you are right (I'm not disputing that here). However, looking at it from Wolfe's perspective where "one needs a 1+ T/W ratio", it can be shown that the need for a more powerful engine than the VF-1's Thrust level doesn't really hold up from that perspective.

True!

Give the respective mass involved, I would think the Beta's VTOL would be a better place to start than the Alpha since it's closer to the VHT by mass than an Alpha (once one gets rid of the wings/nose the Alpha might be closer in dimensions though). Really depends on how one looks at this.

The Beta's using the same engines tho... more or less, at least for its VTOL capabilities.