High power vs. low power campaign. Where do you fit?

[tgunner91]

I was just looking at the "wimpy humans" thread and got to wondering about campaigns. How powerful do you like your campaigns? Is everyone a Glitterboy or some battlesuit jock with hundreds of MDC or do you play with 'real' people trying to make it by with SDC weapons, mixed armor, and maybe a couple of MDC weapons?

I like the low power stuff myself. I played a game with my boys and we had a hoot playing with a wilderness scout and a vagabond who were picking about a ruin looking for salvage. It was really cool when they bumped into a demon and his goblin henchmen! The demon was a low powered one, but to my guys he was a total nightmare! Only a lucky shot with a laser pistol to its head, and a hasty retreat, saved them from being ran down and served up as stew!

During the adventure the boys discovered some old AFVs (a mixture of M-2s and M-1s) hidden in the ruins. Now they are trying to scheme up a way to break back into the goblin's lair and steal one the things! Those old SDC vehicles still have a lot of firepower that they need to save their village from what will amount to a goblin invasion! And if they are lucky they might find the remains of an old Coalition patrol, who was slain decades ago by unknown raiders, and salvage some of their gear too.. the crown jewel of which are a couple of CL-12s! With these weapons and the LAV-25 they might just have the firepower to save everyone. And who knows, they might reach 2nd level at the same time.

Anyway, where do you fall?

[guardiandashi]

I was just looking at the "wimpy humans" thread and got to wondering about campaigns. How powerful do you like your campaigns? Is everyone a Glitterboy or some battlesuit jock with hundreds of MDC or do you play with 'real' people trying to make it by with SDC weapons, mixed armor, and maybe a couple of MDC weapons?

I like the low power stuff myself. I played a game with my boys and we had a hoot playing with a wilderness scout and a vagabond who were picking about a ruin looking for salvage. It was really cool when they bumped into a demon and his goblin henchmen! The demon was a low powered one, but to my guys he was a total nightmare! Only a lucky shot with a laser pistol to its head, and a hasty retreat, saved them from being ran down and served up as stew!

During the adventure the boys discovered some old AFVs (a mixture of M-2s and M-1s) hidden in the ruins. Now they are trying to scheme up a way to break back into the goblin's lair and steal one the things! Those old SDC vehicles still have a lot of firepower that they need to save their village from what will amount to a goblin invasion! And if they are lucky they might find the remains of an old Coalition patrol, who was slain decades ago by unknown raiders, and salvage some of their gear too.. the crown jewel of which are a couple of CL-12s! With these weapons and the LAV-25 they might just have the firepower to save everyone. And who knows, they might reach 2nd level at the same time.

Anyway, where do you fall?

generally somewhere between high level and munchkin the last time I played which was a campaign that I ran the same char for ~5 years of 1-5 days a week gaming.

encounters of note that the character survived.
being "rifted to alternate dimensions" in general.
"best friend wished a monofilament wall would appear in front of her and end up on the other side of me." not fun dodged ~5 times before getting hit result another bionic limb. (I think it was the left arm about 3 inches in from the shoulder. )

appearing in classic battlestar galactica (pre new bsg) on the battlestar Athena at the "peace conference with the cylons" my character ended up on the galactica along with a piece of the athenas hull plating. (don't ask for details)
appearing in star wars having various adventures, and being on the bridge of an imperial star destroyer that got hit in the main hull by a megalaser blast, (my char was the only one to survive bionics were involved but essentially I was trapped for a while between sections of floor and wall plating which were both dented and formed around my char.

being in close proximity to the target of an orbital bombardment 1d6x10,000 mdc blast, my char barely managed to find cover enough to avoid the brunt of the blast... not fun

[random_username]

Whatever is most appropriate and viable fun.

http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=129640

[tgunner91]

That's a great article random. Thanks for tossing in that link. Lots of food for thought.

[flatline]

I'm not an active gamer anymore, but when I was playing most of our campaigns were what I call a medium power level.

I rate party power levels thusly in Rifts:

If a party of 5 must use clever tactics and/or teamwork to defeat a single SAMAS, it's a low power party.
If a party of 5 must use clever tactics and/or teamwork to defeat 5 SAMAS, it's a medium power party.
If a party of 5 doesn't even sweat an encounter with 5 SAMAS, it's a high power party.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

The groups tend to be medium powered, just because of the types of things the group likes to do. However, the game world is still the game world. Greater demons, Devastators, boom gun rounds from miles away...these things are going to happen if you get into a situation that could produce it. That is, the world is high powered, but also has everything beneath it. I don't limit what the PC's come across based off their power level, if they get themselves into the thick, i let'm have it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I tend to be medim-to-low when running or (by preference) when playing. Mages tend to murk things up a bit, depending on how free the GMs are with both experience levels and spells (at level 1 a mage is usually pretty equivalent to any other character, by level 6 with a GM who is even moderately free with spells, he's better than a guy in Power Armor, and if the game progresses into "high" levels, He's more versatile than most of the rest of the party and has the MDC of a small tank or robot) - but that's why I usually play them. I have no problem limiting my character to the power of the rest of the party to make sure its fun for everyone.

[sirkermittsg]

I don't care for high powered characters like mages, dragons, and demi gods. I actually don't care for the boom gun of a glitterboy either. I have had characters in apc's and samas. tech guys are what I enjoy playing the most. they are not great fighters....but the role play is fun.

[Incriptus]

Human Augmentation.

Generally speaking we are a mid powered game. Each of us are more than a match for your average soldier, on par with a light war machine, and with a little bit of thought/prep/luck can take out a major war machine. We can reshape a city, we can turn the tide in a battle, but we are not going to win the war on our own.

[Athos]

I have always wanted to play a powerful rifts character like a dragon hatchling, a godling or a lizard mage; but alas, most GMs won't touch those kind of games with a 10' pole. The reason is simple, high power games are very hard to run. When you have to really work to challenge a party, not only do you have to worry about the party going to sleep on you, but you also have to find the balance where you don't simply kill them all. That is the hard part. With a medium or especially a low powered party, it is relatively easy to GM since many/most encounters will be a challenge.

For me, as long as everyone in the party is reasonably close in what they contribute and power wise, and everyone is having fun, then I am good. What I would not be comfortable with is one player being super powered and the rest being relative weaklings, who likes that kind of munchkin situation? Other than the munchkin in the position or power of course.

Balance is the key in gaming. If the party is on the same basic level, and the monsters/challenges aren't overwhelming, then the game works. Many GM's will do all SDC or some concoction like that to make sure noone is too powerful intrinsically, but a GB is still heads and shoulders above most classes when it comes to attacks, damage and MDC; so I am not really convinced that is an "equal" playing field.

I would say "medium" power is the most common that I have played. I personally like magic classes, which are generally medium in power, IMO. I would like to try "high" powered, but those games generally fall apart once the GM realizes how hard they are. "Low" powered doesn't really interest me, why play a punk or an average joe, when real life offers more than that? Having been a soldier for 8 years, and working as an engineer for 15+ years and being involved in technology start-ups, my life has been pretty interesting, so why would I want to play a farmer? My work is more interesting than that, and pays a lot more.

My advise to anyone would be to find a good GM. A good GM will attract good RPers, and that is what makes or breaks a game ultimately. If the environment is fun, and people are loose and enjoying themselves, then it is hard to screw up a game like that, regardless of "power" level.

[tgunner91]

so why would I want to play a farmer?

Depends IMO. Playing a farmer who finds out that his community is in serious danger, and only a handful of people (the party) believe him, could make for a lot of fun. Farmer Claude doesn't have tons of mega damage armor suits, blaster/lasers out the ying-yang, an APC full of E-clips and shields, nor even a collection of spells to so save his hide. All he has is his natural gifts, some skills, maybe a couple of useful pieces of gear, and hopefully, a lot of luck. He has to be smart, use his meager assets effectively, and hopefully unite a lot of people into a force that can "do the right thing". To me that sounds like a lot more fun than "my party as an average attack of 160 MD and 1500 MDC, so we can destroy a flight of SAMAS over 80% of the time before we need to reload".

That's not to say that a party like that can be fun, especially if the GM comes up with adventures that are fun and engaging. It just seems more satisfying to play, and maybe win, with an underdog, than to mow down all comers with my special brew of min/maxing. Not saying that you do, though, and I get wanting the something special when it comes to gaming.

Just a thought.

[flatline]

Why is this not a poll?

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

I can play any character on any level, but I prefer low powered games/campaigns.
As in, "SDC is still useful, or even the standard."
It's easier to get a challenge that way, it's more relatable, and combat itself tends to go faster.

[Carl Gleba]

I care about having fun and not the power level. I've play and ran all level of games. The low powered games are more like chess and you have to plan your moves or check mate. The high powered games you have a little more freedom to get crazy. In the end it's all about having fun and creating a memorable story.

[flatline]

I care about having fun and not the power level. I've play and ran all level of games. The low powered games are more like chess and you have to plan your moves or check mate. The high powered games you have a little more freedom to get crazy. In the end it's all about having fun and creating a memorable story.

This is true. My main group was a bunch of power gamers and no matter what the power level of the party was, our goals always escalated faster than our abilities. If we liked the characters, we were more careful to not bite off more than we could chew, but if we were bored with the characters or lost interest in the campaign, we'd be less careful and eventually something would escalate to the point where the party could no longer handle the situation.

Obviously, if the party was low powered, we had to be more careful lest things escalate beyond our abilities.

--flatline

[tgunner91]

I can play any character on any level, but I prefer low powered games/campaigns.
As in, "SDC is still useful, or even the standard."

The interesting thing is that Rifts Earth still is basically a SDC kind of place. Page 357 in RUE says that M-D weapons are still uncommon and that most towns/villages might only have a small handful of such weapons and gear. Only the most powerful kingdoms/states or merc organizations have "ample" supplies of MDC weapons/gear. Our PCs are the champions mentioned who have that gear, after all, it's part of their "job description". But then again, not all "heroes" have to be of that calibre. And even those powerful heroes have to start somewhere: scratched up armor, a family heirloom MDC pistol or vibroblade, and probably a SDC weapon or two

But anyway, it's all about where it's fun for you to play. In a "normal" campaign the characters start low and work themselves up in the traditional RPG way. It's just to me, the low power is where it seems like the most fun/challenging.

[Athos]

so why would I want to play a farmer?

Depends IMO. Playing a farmer who finds out that his community is in serious danger, and only a handful of people (the party) believe him, could make for a lot of fun.

I am not saying it wouldn't be fun for YOU, I am saying it wouldn't be fun for ME.

Try playing a software developer that gets called in at the last minute to write code to make a machine run, so the company can get its new product to market by the time of the trade show 3 months away and they are currently projected to finish 7 years from now. Oh, and the company's financial future is on the line, so a 100 people will lose jobs if you fail. No pressure there.

That is real life for me. Not sure what you do, but being a farmer is not something I would enjoy. Like I said, real life is pretty good for me, and has been. If you want to be a farm boy, go for it. When I relax and try to enjoy fantasy games, I prefer mages.

[Witchcraft]

I would consider the current campaign I'm running a very high level campaign. It is meant to be epic in scope and my philosophy is pretty simple: It's the MEGAVERSE and it needs saving. Who's to say a wilderness scout / city rat / vagabond wouldn't be RIGHT THERE ALONGSIDE the Cosmo Knight and the Demigodling? As such I accommodate my players and whatever they want to play. The "sandbox" however is definitely high-powered.

I tend not to use the word "munchkin" because of the stigma and negative connotation but I think most folks would characterize this campaign as so far beyond munchkin that there's only one name that comes to mind and fits accurately.

"Stupid."

If you had an inkling of the kinds of things we've done (my players and I collaboratively) and what I do behind the scenes to create challenges, create spells, create rune weapons, create entire schools of magic, create NPCs, Old Ones, Megaverse-threatening baddies and EXTINCTION-LEVEL calamity NPCs -- you'd probably laugh and point fingers. I'm sure Kevin would vomit -- if he even recognized it as his Intellectual Property through the blizzard of red tape.

Perhaps one of my players would care to comment?

Dominicus Loricatus and the Vatican-5 were my 5 uber necromancers behind the bubonic plague in medieval europe that they just vanquished Saturday in a 9-hour long combat that spanned 4 melee rounds and 54 actual rounds of actions. Level 15 Murder Mage, lvl 15 Death Walker, level 15 Warborn, level 15 cursebringer, level 15 shifter -- using all the supreme high level magics, rune weapons, summoned monsters, and...well, to give you an idea of Dominicus Loricatus (he's an actual person in real-life btw, Wikipaedia win!)

He's an Ogre Gladiator for 3 levels...as a gladiator he gets tattoos with that option from the arena but not enough to make him a full T-man and bar spellcasting. He then goes Murder Mage for 15 levels, he gets staggering stun, killing deathblow, and all the gladiator H2H bonuses. His murder mage death blow punches did 2d6+32+2d4+14 before the runed knuckle-duster / hand-wraps which enhance PS to supernatural AND cast house of glass on everything they hit / touch.

That's just the cliff's notes -- he and his 5 henchmen were the main boss of the area and my 3 players beat them -- they almost died on multiple occasions and it was a real challenge and the fight lasted 9 hours and and it was filled with the highs and lows of excitement and incredible actions and cinematic victory...

Everyone finds different stuff fun. Who's to say what one man's treasure is if it's not another man's trash?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I can play any character on any level, but I prefer low powered games/campaigns.
As in, "SDC is still useful, or even the standard."

The interesting thing is that Rifts Earth still is basically a SDC kind of place. Page 357 in RUE says that M-D weapons are still uncommon and that most towns/villages might only have a small handful of such weapons and gear.

RUE may say this (just like the RMB did) but the problem is that the fleshed out world from World Books makes this a lie. You cant go more than 50 miles in any direction in North America without running into people armed (to the teeth, in most cases) with MD gear. Often thousands to tens of thousands of them - or even millions (Pecos Empire, for instance).

The setting as described in RMB/RUE simply doesn't actually exist if you take the World Books into account. The basic books describe a vast wilderness puncuated by isolated villages where maybe half a dozen people have MDC weapons of any kind - including broken down old gear - but there's simply no place for these villages to exist anymore other than maybe beyond the Rockies (still not detailed) and the East Cost (not detailed much). Once you place all the various canon kingdoms and towns on the map, North America is practically FULL of civilized places where MDC is commonly available.

Im not saying i agree that that is the way it should be, mind you. I'd prefer it if the setting made more sense than it currently does (as it stands, it doesn't make sense at all in even the smallest ways) and i'd prefer it if MDC weapons WERE still the province of the few big city-states and large nations... but that's long since been proven to be not the case by the world books.

[Elthbert]

I don't necessarily agree Colonel Tetsuya.

I have run many campaigns in Texas, the pecos bandits are very real and present, but that doesn't mean they have to be armed to the teeth with MDC weapons, In My campaign MDC weapons are not common, not really, pecos raiders are often armed with an assualt rifle and explosive rounds, or ramjet rounds, a Pickup truck with a 50 BMG, a few belts of ramjet rounds and some MD armour plate hung on the side ( say 60 MD worth) with a half a dozen guys with Ramjet equipped rifles and some piecemeal MD armour ( say 20 MD) lead by a Merc soldier with a nice shiny set of bushman, an L-20 and a handful of clips is more than enough to raid a basically defenseless village.

The Tech level of most places is all about how you play it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't necessarily agree Colonel Tetsuya.

I have run many campaigns in Texas, the pecos bandits are very real and present, but that doesn't mean they have to be armed to the teeth with MDC weapons,

Then that is something you changed. I dont disagree with the change, per se, but it is a change you made. The Pecos bandits are listed by race and OCC breakdown. They ARE armed to the teeth according to Lone Star. There are almost a million of them. (just shy of 800,000 combatant-types according to the book).

In My campaign MDC weapons are not common, not really, pecos raiders are often armed with an assualt rifle and explosive rounds, or ramjet rounds, a Pickup truck with a 50 BMG, a few belts of ramjet rounds and some MD armour plate hung on the side ( say 60 MD worth) with a half a dozen guys with Ramjet equipped rifles and some piecemeal MD armour ( say 20 MD) lead by a Merc soldier with a nice shiny set of bushman, an L-20 and a handful of clips is more than enough to raid a basically defenseless village.

The Tech level of most places is all about how you play it.

Only if you ignore the World Books, which clearly define the tech level of most places and the tech level of most places described in the World Books shows that MD weapons are pretty common.

Like i said, i dont disagree with your change, and i think one of the worst things the various World Books did was basically completely contradict the RMB's description of a vast wasteland with a very few high-tech reserves and a a lot of low-tech places with almost no MD weaponry. But they DID do that. Seriously, take a look at the map project linked here in the forum (its an insanely good map - sticked above) - North America is CRAWLING with high-tech societies. You cant go more than 60-100 miles in any direction without running into something high-tech or MDC-capable (i wouldnt call Dino swamp "high tech", but they certainly are armed with MD weapons and armor). Then add in things like the Simvan and Brodkil (both listed to have populations in the millions in North America, and, but their OCC/RCC descriptions, commonly armed with MDC armor and weapons) and the Pecos Empire and BAM, MDC is more common than you can shake a stick at.

I cant re-iterate enough that i DONT LIKE THAT about the World Books, but that doesn't make the canon truth any less true.

[Elthbert]

I don't necessarily agree Colonel Tetsuya.

I have run many campaigns in Texas, the pecos bandits are very real and present, but that doesn't mean they have to be armed to the teeth with MDC weapons,

Then that is something you changed. I dont disagree with the change, per se, but it is a change you made. The Pecos bandits are listed by race and OCC breakdown. They ARE armed to the teeth according to Lone Star. There are almost a million of them. (just shy of 800,000 combatant-types according to the book).

In My campaign MDC weapons are not common, not really, pecos raiders are often armed with an assualt rifle and explosive rounds, or ramjet rounds, a Pickup truck with a 50 BMG, a few belts of ramjet rounds and some MD armour plate hung on the side ( say 60 MD worth) with a half a dozen guys with Ramjet equipped rifles and some piecemeal MD armour ( say 20 MD) lead by a Merc soldier with a nice shiny set of bushman, an L-20 and a handful of clips is more than enough to raid a basically defenseless village.

The Tech level of most places is all about how you play it.

Only if you ignore the World Books, which clearly define the tech level of most places and the tech level of most places described in the World Books shows that MD weapons are pretty common.

Like i said, i dont disagree with your change, and i think one of the worst things the various World Books did was basically completely contradict the RMB's description of a vast wasteland with a very few high-tech reserves and a a lot of low-tech places with almost no MD weaponry. But they DID do that. Seriously, take a look at the map project linked here in the forum (its an insanely good map - sticked above) - North America is CRAWLING with high-tech societies. You cant go more than 60-100 miles in any direction without running into something high-tech or MDC-capable (i wouldnt call Dino swamp "high tech", but they certainly are armed with MD weapons and armor). Then add in things like the Simvan and Brodkil (both listed to have populations in the millions in North America, and, but their OCC/RCC descriptions, commonly armed with MDC armor and weapons) and the Pecos Empire and BAM, MDC is more common than you can shake a stick at.

I cant re-iterate enough that i DONT LIKE THAT about the World Books, but that doesn't make the canon truth any less true.

No, no changes were made at all, strictly canonical, straight from the book.

According to Lone Star the average raider is a Pecos Raider OCC. That OCC does not even necessarily start with armour, and if it does it can be any armour, with dog boy armour ( 30 MDC) being very common, he gets a rifle and a pistol, those are listed as Energy or other, and his vehicle is either a horse OR a beat up hover cycle.


Its all about how you outfit these men on average, if you give them all bushmen, an L- 20 and NG 57's, well then yeah MDC is common as dirt, if you give them dog pack armour, or armour made from hids, or peicemeal armour, and ramjet rounds in an M-4 with horses and a Technical then MDC is still rare. BOTH fit quite nicely within the Text of the book.

Also Simvan are SDC creatures, interpreting their equipment is the same as above.

Also, according to the book ther eare only 100,000 to 150,000 full time actual bandits. As usual Palladium is not exactly spot on when it comes to stuff even in the same book.

[Kagashi]

Its all about how you outfit these men on average, if you give them all bushmen, an L- 20 and NG 57's, well then yeah MDC is common as dirt, if you give them dog pack armour, or armour made from hids, or peicemeal armour, and ramjet rounds in an M-4 with horses and a Technical then MDC is still rare. BOTH fit quite nicely within the Text of the book.

Also Simvan are SDC creatures, interpreting their equipment is the same as above.

Also, according to the book ther eare only 100,000 to 150,000 full time actual bandits. As usual Palladium is not exactly spot on when it comes to stuff even in the same book.

How is homespun MDC armor, dogpack riot armor, and ramjet rounds not mega damage capable equipment? It's still MD. Its just not as high tech as say the Coalition equipment. But MD is still MD. Be it Simvan or Pecos Bandits, your guys are still armed to the teeth with MD weaponry, which according to the original (now defunct) Rifts Main Book is a contradiction.

As pointed out before, even low tech places have MD capable weapons. Mutants in Mad Haven have MD bone weapons, as do the rednecks in the Dino Swamp. Xiciticx have been reconned so their weapons deal MD (most powerful MD melee weapons IMHO). They all also sport MDC armor, be it made from Fury Beetles or patchwork MD metal fragments.

This is in direct contradiction to the original feel of Rifts when all there was, was a main book. Hence the reason why RUE was warranted to correctly reclassify Rifts Earth as a Post-Post-Apocalyptic setting and the creation of Chaos Earth which sets the stage for the Dark Ages, which is more in line with the Post-Apocalyptic feel the RMB originally presented. All because over time, the World Books power crept MD capable equipment everywhere you turn.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

- Looking at it, it DOES start with MDC armor; it simply says Dog Pack armor is quite common (Dog Pack Armor goes to 50MDC)
- They get MDC weapons. Energy or not. (I take this to mean that they may use things like the other weapons introduced in the New West trilogy and the very-popular-with-bandits NG sawed-off - still QUITE lethal)
- Looking at the various breakdowns for the major Bandit clans, Pecos Raider doesnt ever quite make up 40% of any of the clans, which are supposed to be representative of the bandits as a whole; most of the classes are things like Grunt equivalents, Brodkil, etc, that are all very heavily armed.
- Page 126 makes it quite clear that there are 550,000 or so "career bandits".
- then Page 153 outright contradicts this by saying that "only" 150,000 or so are "career criminals".
- going back to page 126, however, makes it clear the difference: as much as 40% of the "career bandits" aren't "career criminals" - they only raid the CS territory because the CS treats them like an enemy and out of desperation - these guys are known to be nice and even try not to leave casualties.

End of the day, there are, out of a population of a little over 1.6 million, about 550,000 people armed with MD weaponry and armor. I'd say that's pretty common. It doesn't matter if MDC weaponry is super-high tech - Most good rifles with Ramjets can burst up to a decent amount of MD damage, about as good as the (now single-shot only) average laser rifle. So can shotgun Ramjets or explosive shells. (Actually, a rotary-feed auto-shotgun can do BETTER damage than a laser rifle with Ramjets, the only downfall being short range).

Simvan being SDC creatures isn't really relevant. It's pretty clear (page 163) - knife, two energy weapons and light body armor is standard equipment for Simvan. There are (spread out over North America, to be sure) hundreds of thousands to millions of them (depending on which World Book you're reading). All armed with MD weapons and armor.

Brodkil ARE supernatural demons and dont need MDC weapons. There are hundreds of thousands of them in North America.

The Map is FILLED with high-tech or mega-damage capable societies.

Like i said, i dont LIKE it, but that's what the World Books did. North America is demonstrably NOT the giant wasteland with few, if any high-tech/high-magic MDC places. It's hard to go 100 miles in any direction till you hit the Canadian wastelands in the north without running into a city with ample access to MDC weaponry and armor of some kind or another.

[Elthbert]

- Looking at it, it DOES start with MDC armor; it simply says Dog Pack armor is quite common (Dog Pack Armor goes to 50MDC)
- They get MDC weapons. Energy or not. (I take this to mean that they may use things like the other weapons introduced in the New West trilogy and the very-popular-with-bandits NG sawed-off - still QUITE lethal)
- Looking at the various breakdowns for the major Bandit clans, Pecos Raider doesnt ever quite make up 40% of any of the clans, which are supposed to be representative of the bandits as a whole; most of the classes are things like Grunt equivalents, Brodkil, etc, that are all very heavily armed.
- Page 126 makes it quite clear that there are 550,000 or so "career bandits".
- then Page 153 outright contradicts this by saying that "only" 150,000 or so are "career criminals".
- going back to page 126, however, makes it clear the difference: as much as 40% of the "career bandits" aren't "career criminals" - they only raid the CS territory because the CS treats them like an enemy and out of desperation - these guys are known to be nice and even try not to leave casualties.

End of the day, there are, out of a population of a little over 1.6 million, about 550,000 people armed with MD weaponry and armor. I'd say that's pretty common. It doesn't matter if MDC weaponry is super-high tech - Most good rifles with Ramjets can burst up to a decent amount of MD damage, about as good as the (now single-shot only) average laser rifle. So can shotgun Ramjets or explosive shells. (Actually, a rotary-feed auto-shotgun can do BETTER damage than a laser rifle with Ramjets, the only downfall being short range).

Simvan being SDC creatures isn't really relevant. It's pretty clear (page 163) - knife, two energy weapons and light body armor is standard equipment for Simvan. There are (spread out over North America, to be sure) hundreds of thousands to millions of them (depending on which World Book you're reading). All armed with MD weapons and armor.

Brodkil ARE supernatural demons and dont need MDC weapons. There are hundreds of thousands of them in North America.

The Map is FILLED with high-tech or mega-damage capable societies.

Like i said, i dont LIKE it, but that's what the World Books did. North America is demonstrably NOT the giant wasteland with few, if any high-tech/high-magic MDC places. It's hard to go 100 miles in any direction till you hit the Canadian wastelands in the north without running into a city with ample access to MDC weaponry and armor of some kind or another.

Reread it

It says Typically some type of armor.... typically does not mean-- "has armor" it means a significant number have no armour at all, but that most do.

Also it never says anywhere that the Rifle or Pistol are MD, check again. One could argue that Vibro knifes are standard MD equipment, but even then the book simply says "common equipment".

The Brodkil are a serious problem, so are the Tokanii and they should be treated as such. But of the 1.6 million people in the empire only about 250,000 are MD and most of those are very light MD creatures ( vangaurd brawlers).

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

- Looking at it, it DOES start with MDC armor; it simply says Dog Pack armor is quite common (Dog Pack Armor goes to 50MDC)
- They get MDC weapons. Energy or not. (I take this to mean that they may use things like the other weapons introduced in the New West trilogy and the very-popular-with-bandits NG sawed-off - still QUITE lethal)
- Looking at the various breakdowns for the major Bandit clans, Pecos Raider doesnt ever quite make up 40% of any of the clans, which are supposed to be representative of the bandits as a whole; most of the classes are things like Grunt equivalents, Brodkil, etc, that are all very heavily armed.
- Page 126 makes it quite clear that there are 550,000 or so "career bandits".
- then Page 153 outright contradicts this by saying that "only" 150,000 or so are "career criminals".
- going back to page 126, however, makes it clear the difference: as much as 40% of the "career bandits" aren't "career criminals" - they only raid the CS territory because the CS treats them like an enemy and out of desperation - these guys are known to be nice and even try not to leave casualties.

End of the day, there are, out of a population of a little over 1.6 million, about 550,000 people armed with MD weaponry and armor. I'd say that's pretty common. It doesn't matter if MDC weaponry is super-high tech - Most good rifles with Ramjets can burst up to a decent amount of MD damage, about as good as the (now single-shot only) average laser rifle. So can shotgun Ramjets or explosive shells. (Actually, a rotary-feed auto-shotgun can do BETTER damage than a laser rifle with Ramjets, the only downfall being short range).

Simvan being SDC creatures isn't really relevant. It's pretty clear (page 163) - knife, two energy weapons and light body armor is standard equipment for Simvan. There are (spread out over North America, to be sure) hundreds of thousands to millions of them (depending on which World Book you're reading). All armed with MD weapons and armor.

Brodkil ARE supernatural demons and dont need MDC weapons. There are hundreds of thousands of them in North America.

The Map is FILLED with high-tech or mega-damage capable societies.

Like i said, i dont LIKE it, but that's what the World Books did. North America is demonstrably NOT the giant wasteland with few, if any high-tech/high-magic MDC places. It's hard to go 100 miles in any direction till you hit the Canadian wastelands in the north without running into a city with ample access to MDC weaponry and armor of some kind or another.

Reread it

It says Typically some type of armor.... typically does not mean-- "has armor" it means a significant number have no armour at all, but that most do.

Also it never says anywhere that the Rifle or Pistol are MD, check again. One could argue that Vibro knifes are standard MD equipment, but even then the book simply says "common equipment".

The Brodkil are a serious problem, so are the Tokanii and they should be treated as such. But of the 1.6 million people in the empire only about 250,000 are MD and most of those are very light MD creatures ( vangaurd brawlers).

I dont need to re-read it. I read it just fine the first time. You're assuming that they are idiots, and given a choice of a weapon, wont take an MD weapon when it is clearly available.

I dont assume people are idiots. They have access to MD weapons and armor by default, therefore they will not be stupid and will take it.

[Elthbert]

- Looking at it, it DOES start with MDC armor; it simply says Dog Pack armor is quite common (Dog Pack Armor goes to 50MDC)
- They get MDC weapons. Energy or not. (I take this to mean that they may use things like the other weapons introduced in the New West trilogy and the very-popular-with-bandits NG sawed-off - still QUITE lethal)
- Looking at the various breakdowns for the major Bandit clans, Pecos Raider doesnt ever quite make up 40% of any of the clans, which are supposed to be representative of the bandits as a whole; most of the classes are things like Grunt equivalents, Brodkil, etc, that are all very heavily armed.
- Page 126 makes it quite clear that there are 550,000 or so "career bandits".
- then Page 153 outright contradicts this by saying that "only" 150,000 or so are "career criminals".
- going back to page 126, however, makes it clear the difference: as much as 40% of the "career bandits" aren't "career criminals" - they only raid the CS territory because the CS treats them like an enemy and out of desperation - these guys are known to be nice and even try not to leave casualties.

End of the day, there are, out of a population of a little over 1.6 million, about 550,000 people armed with MD weaponry and armor. I'd say that's pretty common. It doesn't matter if MDC weaponry is super-high tech - Most good rifles with Ramjets can burst up to a decent amount of MD damage, about as good as the (now single-shot only) average laser rifle. So can shotgun Ramjets or explosive shells. (Actually, a rotary-feed auto-shotgun can do BETTER damage than a laser rifle with Ramjets, the only downfall being short range).

Simvan being SDC creatures isn't really relevant. It's pretty clear (page 163) - knife, two energy weapons and light body armor is standard equipment for Simvan. There are (spread out over North America, to be sure) hundreds of thousands to millions of them (depending on which World Book you're reading). All armed with MD weapons and armor.

Brodkil ARE supernatural demons and dont need MDC weapons. There are hundreds of thousands of them in North America.

The Map is FILLED with high-tech or mega-damage capable societies.

Like i said, i dont LIKE it, but that's what the World Books did. North America is demonstrably NOT the giant wasteland with few, if any high-tech/high-magic MDC places. It's hard to go 100 miles in any direction till you hit the Canadian wastelands in the north without running into a city with ample access to MDC weaponry and armor of some kind or another.

Reread it

It says Typically some type of armor.... typically does not mean-- "has armor" it means a significant number have no armour at all, but that most do.

Also it never says anywhere that the Rifle or Pistol are MD, check again. One could argue that Vibro knifes are standard MD equipment, but even then the book simply says "common equipment".

The Brodkil are a serious problem, so are the Tokanii and they should be treated as such. But of the 1.6 million people in the empire only about 250,000 are MD and most of those are very light MD creatures ( vangaurd brawlers).

I dont need to re-read it. I read it just fine the first time. You're assuming that they are idiots, and given a choice of a weapon, wont take an MD weapon when it is clearly available.

I dont assume people are idiots. They have access to MD weapons and armor by default, therefore they will not be stupid and will take it.

They don't have access to such weapons by default, they have access to such weapons by GM fiat, becuase, according to the setting books ( RMB and RUE) Mega weapons are still uncommon. If you are choosing to give all your raiders energy weapons then that is on you, not on the book, it is not "people being stupid" to use what is available.

If I had a player who was making a Pecos raider I would give them a choice of what they wanted. But clearly, the average Pecos Raider is an NPC, and so his equipment has nothing to do with a PC's choices, but with what the GM chooses to equip him with. Well within the rules as written, the average pecos raider has some armour and some weapons, some of which might be MD and some of which might not. Some raiders have no armour at all, commonly a vibro blade is carried, but that doesn't mean that all even have that.



If you go in with the idea that MD weapons are common to everyone, you will give everyone MD weapons, if you take the setting at its word and MD weapons are uncommon, then there is no reason to assume that the "average Raider" has MD weapons at all.

[Hotrod]

"Power" is such a subjective term. It all depends on the circumstances.

Can a Cosmo-knight deliver a breach baby, or save a village during the outbreak of a deadly infectious disease?
Can a demi-god safely dispose of an intricate and sensitive bomb in the hold of a crowded ferry?
Can a dragon track a group of lost children in the wilderness?
Can a descended Glitter Boy pilot teach a bunch of Tolkeen refugees how to farm and store enough food in the pacific northwest so they don't starve to death the next winter?
Can a (pick your flavor) samurai dig a shelter for their village so they survive a typhoon?
Can a True Atlantean Undead Slayer solve a string of mysterious murders that aren't the work of the undead?

If you accept the idea that heroes are people who do for others what those others can't do for themselves, then there's a lot more to heroics than fighting big bad guys in a face-to-face confrontation.