Refitting next generation mecha with SMLH fusion?

[mech798]

It would seem to be difficult, but OTH, the Southern Cross mecha was about the same size, so their would seem to be no absolute bar to it, and given that there is no more protoculture to be had, wouldn't that be a wise choice?

[Tiree]

In my games, I do the following:

Southern Cross uses SLMH Fuel Stacks (per the power Armor), but those same fuel stacks are used on their Robots. They just use more of them. But these Fuel Stacks look a lot like Protoculture Cells, they are interchangeable. For Mecha that are used to Protoculture but get a SLMH Fuel Stack, then divide the duration by 4. For those that are used to SLMH and you put protoculture in, multiply the duration by 2.

[glitterboy2098]

the powerplants might fit, but i doubt the UEEF mecha carry enough tankage to run for very long.. after all when 16 quarts or so of PC will run you for a month, there is little need to build big fuel tanks for the powerplant.* and the fighter's space endurance is described as pretty low despite using plasma engines, so it doesn't have much in the way of reaction mass tankage either.

i doubt you could convert PC mecha over to SLMH and get enough operations time to make it worthwhile.. especially the space fighters where that SLMH would have to double as reaction mass for the engines.



* an Alpha uses 16 PC cannisters.. each big enough to carry a quart or so of liquid, like PC. this runs the Alpha for a month. a VF-1 carries a fuel load of many hundreds of gallons, which only runs it for a week! using ASC mecha, those efficencies better, but a Logan is still going to be a flying gas tank by comparison to the alpha. and it uses fusion engines designed for it.. not a mcguyver'd refit rying to run non-fusion engines.


given the UEEF seem to be able to build mecha fairly rapidly, they might just be better off loading Logan or AGACS schematics into their factory sat's computers and building mecha designed specifically for SLMH.. even if that means a degree of retraining for their pilots.

[ShadowLogan]

the powerplants might fit, but i doubt the UEEF mecha carry enough tankage to run for very long.. after all when 16 quarts or so of PC will run you for a month, there is little need to build big fuel tanks for the powerplant.* and the fighter's space endurance is described as pretty low despite using plasma engines, so it doesn't have much in the way of reaction mass tankage either.

The thing is, we don't know how much "tankage" these designs actually have, just that they use SLMH and their endurance figures from the 2E RPG and Infopedia. Even the Alpha/Beta's PC canister count may not reflect all the available fuel/reaction mass.

One way to beef up UEEF fuel tankage though, would be to retrofit the Cyclone storage bay out for said tank (IIRC, the cyclone is about 1cubic meter in volume, or 1,000liters or ~250gallons of fluid). Never mind converting the Beta's seldom used bomb bay to contain a fuel tank (either completely, or partially).

this runs the Alpha for a month. a VF-1 carries a fuel load of many hundreds of gallons, which only runs it for a week! using ASC mecha, those efficencies better, but a Logan is still going to be a flying gas tank by comparison to the alpha. and it uses fusion engines designed for it.. not a mcguyver'd refit rying to run non-fusion engines.

2E RPG Canonically these times are off (unless it changed in the reprinting of Macross SB with the new size, I don't have that one):
Alpha and Beta: 1 month, but HEAVY use cuts that in half
VF-1: 2 Days (48hrs)
ASC VTs: 7 Days

The UEEF might not have to macguyver a system in, the 2E RPG does have those backup fusion engines. And it isn't like aerospacecraft haven't changed engines during their lifetime. And as the Alpha models show, the engines can be changed.

given the UEEF seem to be able to build mecha fairly rapidly, they might just be better off loading Logan or AGACS schematics into their factory sat's computers and building mecha designed specifically for SLMH.. even if that means a degree of retraining for their pilots.

They might use them as a starting point, but I don't think they would use them as is since they would not take advantage of new technology. The designs may not also meet current requirements.

[Seto Kaiba]

The thing is, we don't know how much "tankage" these designs actually have, just that they use SLMH and their endurance figures from the 2E RPG and Infopedia. Even the Alpha/Beta's PC canister count may not reflect all the available fuel/reaction mass.

Well, if one wanted to use the VF-1's tankage as a fair indicator, we can quote that down to the liter.

[ShadowLogan]

The thing is, we don't know how much "tankage" these designs actually have, just that they use SLMH and their endurance figures from the 2E RPG and Infopedia. Even the Alpha/Beta's PC canister count may not reflect all the available fuel/reaction mass.

Well, if one wanted to use the VF-1's tankage as a fair indicator, we can quote that down to the liter.

That may well be helpful for the VF-1 specifically, but the other Veritechs it doesn't really help.

Keep in mind the ASC VFs are supposed to have x3.5 the endurance (in the 2E RPG-verse). That means they either carry x3.5 more fuel, are x3.5 more efficient, or some mix of the two all in smaller frames.

The UEEF Veritechs with their PC engines are (basically) x2 as efficient as the ASC (1/2 Month of heavy use), though the two designs are either smaller than a VF-1 or larger AND they fit in a back-up fusion system with 4hr (IIRC) endurance on top of the non-SLMH supply.

[Seto Kaiba]

Keep in mind the ASC VFs are supposed to have x3.5 the endurance (in the 2E RPG-verse). That means they either carry x3.5 more fuel, are x3.5 more efficient, or some mix of the two all in smaller frames.

Putting aside the usual form reply to the effect of "The RPG is full of stuff that makes no sense", there's also another very obvious explanation... namely, that the ASC VFs are operating at a dramatically lower level of performance per canon and official spec and the like, and therefore would have lower demands on their fuel supply.

[mech798]

The problem is that unless protoculture is radically superior in some respect, using it is a pants on head stupid decision. My take is that the main advantage is that if you have protocultrue it's very simple to use. Protoculture engines have far less in the way of maintenance burdens than SMLH engines, and they're likely easier to build. Granted, that doesn't make much sense, but it's about the best you can do when the second option is "we decided to reprise the robotech masters by tying our entire civilization to a power supply that has one (1) source that has an unfortunate habit of getting lost. We than proceeded to lose said source."

[jaymz]

It's a game. In the game, I'd allow it. It wouldn't be easy. It would also be harder to get fuel supplies I would think but if all you have to repair a unit back to operational status is a SMLH powerplant to replace the PC one. I'd allow it. To hell with realism. It's a game not a the show

[ShadowLogan]

Putting aside the usual form reply to the effect of "The RPG is full of stuff that makes no sense", there's also another very obvious explanation... namely, that the ASC VFs are operating at a dramatically lower level of performance per canon and official spec and the like, and therefore would have lower demands on their fuel supply.

This really doesn't hold up. As it doesn't work out to a 1:1 trade off. Sure they could sacrifice for endurance, but with the exception of the Beta these are all smaller mecha on top of that and with the exception of the Logan heavier. So their efficiency has to go up, even if they sacrifice speed, to account for all the other changing variables to account for the RPG's stated endurance of all of these mecha.

The problem is that unless protoculture is radically superior in some respect, using it is a pants on head stupid decision.

Unless its changed somewhere, Protoculture has always been considered a step up from Nuclear Energy in terms of output. It likely can't compete with Anti-matter, or other far out possibilities, but it is supposed to be superior to Nuclear.

[Seto Kaiba]

This really doesn't hold up. As it doesn't work out to a 1:1 trade off. Sure they could sacrifice for endurance, but with the exception of the Beta these are all smaller mecha on top of that and with the exception of the Logan heavier.

Unsurprisingly, their performance is also generally markedly lower in all or almost all respects... so there is some room for this to be a viable explanation. It may simply be that they're drawing less power from the reactor for other systems as well... remember, those engines aren't just making it fly, they're also generating all of its electrical power.

The problem is that unless protoculture is radically superior in some respect, using it is a pants on head stupid decision.

Unless its changed somewhere, Protoculture has always been considered a step up from Nuclear Energy in terms of output. It likely can't compete with Anti-matter, or other far out possibilities, but it is supposed to be superior to Nuclear.

While mech798 is eminently correct in his statement that using protoculture is generally a pants-on-head stupid decision for all kinds of reasons, your defense would be valid if not for one particularly inconvenient technicality with respect to your source...

Specifically... nowhere is it said that protoculture is superior to nuclear energy in output.

To be brutally precise, what's actually said in the Robotech.com Infopedia definition of the stuff was that it is superior in energy density to "conventional nuclear sources". Exactly what a "conventional nuclear source" is is frustratingly undefined, but the fact is that what's said is not that reflex furnaces will inherently produce more energy than a nuclear reactor... just that for a given unit of fuel volume, protoculture can produce more energy than the "conventional nuclear sources".

[glitterboy2098]

which is why an alpha can get by using only a couple gallons of the stuff instead of hundreds of gallons of fusion fuel.

(also why protoculture is required for useful FTL travel.. using SLMH fusion, the ship would almost certainly have to devote a lot of mass to bulky fuel tanks.. reducing other payload by a lot..)

as for ASC mecha.. given their smaller size over all, i'd say they have efficency improvements over the VF-1.. kinda like comparing a F110 engine to a F119 engine..

[Jefffar]

Also, apparently after discovering how wasteful the early mecha actually were in terms of power output versus actual battlefield results, the technology was upgraded to do more with less power creating effective war machines that needed only a fraction of the energy to do the job.

[glitterboy2098]

Also, apparently after discovering how wasteful the early mecha actually were in terms of power output versus actual battlefield results, the technology was upgraded to do more with less power creating effective war machines that needed only a fraction of the energy to do the job.

actually SLMH is not wasteful.. after all you can make more SLMH, while PC at the time was a finite resource, needed for space travel.

i've argued it was logistical.. the UEEF not wanting to have to carry huge tanks of SLMH along on starships. after all, your using PC to avoid making starships flying gastanks already, why use mecha that force you to do it anyway? with PC, a ship's mecha compliment can operate as long as the ship has fuel, and can be resupplied with fuel at the same time the ship is refueled. there isn't any extra logistical burden or operations limiter the way sticking to SLMH would impose.

on the otherhand, the ASC was not limited by the need to fit everything on a starship, or the need to supply ships for really long range missions, so it stuck to SLMH in order to free up more PC for the UEEF.

[Jefffar]

I mean the efficiencies of the second generation SMLH platforms over the first generation ones.

With what is probably less fuel tankage (being smaller), they were able to maintain combat effectiveness 250% longer. Apparently all those extremely high powered weapons and the extreme thrust to weight ratio of the first generation SLMH mecha was wastefully unnecessary to doing the job.

[Seto Kaiba]

which is why an alpha can get by using only a couple gallons of the stuff instead of hundreds of gallons of fusion fuel.

It's likely also why the Alpha has such sub-standard performance compared to, say, the VF-1... and it adds some entirely unnecessary complexity in that a protoculture-powered craft needs TWO fuel supplies instead of one. The plasma waste from the fusion reaction (coupled with intake air in atmosphere) is propellant... while the Alpha needs to carry a separate supply of propellant IN ADDITION TO its protoculture energy cells to operate in space.

(also why protoculture is required for useful FTL travel.. using SLMH fusion, the ship would almost certainly have to devote a lot of mass to bulky fuel tanks.. reducing other payload by a lot..)

Exactly what the ratio is between the respective energy density of liquid metallic hydrogen and protoculture is unknown... and thus, we really can't draw ANY conclusions to this effect. It's entirely possible, given the relatively poor gains that a protoculture power system confers, that the actual difference is very small and humanity only uses protoculture in its fold engines because their technological development is almost purely imitative and for a long time they were making do with salvaged fold systems from Zentradi wrecks.

Also, apparently after discovering how wasteful the early mecha actually were in terms of power output versus actual battlefield results, the technology was upgraded to do more with less power creating effective war machines that needed only a fraction of the energy to do the job.

I'd take exception with the "Effective", but that's more an issue of poor design choices and crippling overspecialization... there's always the practical upshot that you don't actually NEED to be careful with fuel efficiency when your fuel is the most plentiful substance in the universe and is also clean-burning. Not like protoculture, where a sniff of it brings everyone in the galaxy down on your head.

i've argued it was logistical.. the UEEF not wanting to have to carry huge tanks of SLMH along on starships. after all, your using PC to avoid making starships flying gastanks already, why use mecha that force you to do it anyway?

It's probably not even that... and is just that the ships for the Expeditionary Forces were fast-tracked in construction by using salvaged Zentradi hardware, and that all ran on protoculture.

[mech798]

The problem with protoculture is that *none* of its advantages make up for it's one crippling disadvantage: if you lose the magic box on the SDF-3, your entire warmachine falls over dead in one year.

Now, let's also note that Hunter's, those military geniuses of a like not seen since Consul Varro and George Armstrong Custer, put said irreplaceable magic box on their biggest battleship-- the thing that was going to be shot at by everyone and their brother.

And everything-- everything-- depends on that. The robotech factory, space station liberty, little cyclones, garfish, etc. etc. Even some of the *sidearms of the army* depend on this single, irreplacable source. Heck, I'll point out that they were even stupider than the robotech masters, who at least didn't intend for the matrix to ever come into harms way-- and being strategically dumber than the masters is a feat of rare brilliance.

Just imagine the response you'd get from the USMC if you suggested using a new magic gadget like protoculture to power everything:

It's not incredibly better than what you have, it's a bit cheaper and easier to use and oh, by the way, the only known, irreplacable source in the universe will be on the LCS Freedom, which we just sent into the littorals to clear mines. If it blows up, the entire Marine Corps is out of power in a year.

SMLH suffers none of those faults.

The only justification for protoculture, especially with oh, say...and example of an entire interstallar empire that fell due to losing their magic box, is to be used for things that nothing else will work for. If protoculture was a vital part of hte FTL process, you could justify using it for ships, but as it stands, the entire damned Shadow Chronicles setting makes humanity seem so utterly stupid that it beggers the mind. They didn't only make a decision that made their doom almost certain at some ponit, they did it in full knowledge that the loss of the protoculture matrix was *precisely* the thing that doomed a vast empire with far more in the way of technology and industry than earth.

Oh, and as Seito pointed out, protoculture tends ot have the same : everyone wants to kill you for it, effect that the One Ring had.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem with protoculture is that *none* of its advantages make up for it's one crippling disadvantage: if you lose the magic box on the SDF-3, your entire warmachine falls over dead in one year.

Aye... and let's not forget that there's absolutely no replacing or duplicating that "magic box" either, as that "magic box" is the last source of the stuff in the universe. If the United Earth Forces lose it, they won't be the only ones completely and totally screwed... their allies will be going down with them.

Put bluntly, this isn't a problem it's even possible to encounter with the nuclear fusion reactors used on the mecha of Robotech's first two generations or the thermonuclear reaction power plants used in Macross. Whether the Robotech mecha are using the RPG's liquid metallic hydrogen or some of the more conventional options like hydrogen, deuterium and helium-3, or hydrogen and boron-11, it's all stuff you can get pretty much anywhere. If you're lazy or desperate, you can always stick Bussard ramscoops onto your ship and pick the stuff up as you travel, but space cheerfully provides a pit stop with most gas giants... which contain immeasurably vast quantities of naturally occurring hydrogen, in liquid metallic form at certain altitudes. The best part is that if you want to do rocket engines, there's no need to carry a separate rocket fuel supply either... liquid hydrogen'll do the trick just fine, and the liquid metallic stuff is a cut above regular hydrogen-oxygen rockets.

What madness would possess someone to turn down a technology where the whole galaxy is literally your gas station for magic flowers that make everyone want to kill you?

Now, let's also note that Hunter's, those military geniuses of a like not seen since Consul Varro and George Armstrong Custer, put said irreplaceable magic box on their biggest battleship-- the thing that was going to be shot at by everyone and their brother.

At least Harmony Gold has retconned things so said battleship wasn't stranded out on the front lines of someone else's war completely alone...

And everything-- everything-- depends on that. The robotech factory, space station liberty, little cyclones, garfish, etc. etc. Even some of the *sidearms of the army* depend on this single, irreplacable source. Heck, I'll point out that they were even stupider than the robotech masters, who at least didn't intend for the matrix to ever come into harms way-- and being strategically dumber than the masters is a feat of rare brilliance.

Little known secret... the standard tactics text for the Robotech Masters soldiery was a dogeared old copy of Zap Brannigan's Big Book of War that fell through a time warp. The Robotech Defense and Expeditionary Forces required reading is still The Butter Battle Book by Dr. Seuss.

If protoculture was a vital part of hte FTL process, you could justify using it for ships, but as it stands, the entire damned Shadow Chronicles setting makes humanity seem so utterly stupid that it beggers the mind.

... and that's a big "if", my friend. The Haydonites don't seem to use the stuff, and yet they have fold capability as explicitly stated in the RTSC film itself.

Oh, and as Seito pointed out, protoculture tends ot have the same : everyone wants to kill you for it, effect that the One Ring had.

It's got the same flaw that the One Ring had too... remember, one of the big plot points of the entire New Generation and the Prelude comic miniseries was that actually USING the stuff in battle is somewhat less covert than simply phoning the enemy up and letting him know you're coming. It took the UEEF's brightest and best DECADES to figure out that their power source made their ships and all their mecha marginally less stealthy than a marching band in a minefield and provoked every Invid in eyeshot to the kind of dispassionate murderfrenzy normally only provoked by Flavor Flav or Snooki.

Even then, the "brightest and best" needed to have the answer literally dropped in their laps by aliens who'd had the answer all along and were presumably watching humanity get massacred for the lulz... which, to any sane man, would probably be cause for either intense suspicion or the mother of all "WHAT THE HELL, MAN?!" moments.

At least Frodo only had to worry about nine ring wraiths... the UEEF's use of protoculture is like having the entire fellowship wearing the One Ring and the Nazgul busing themselves in by the hundreds.

[jaymz]

I get the hate for Snooki....but Flava flave? Man.....haterz be hatin...

As for the Matrix.....yeah putting it on the SDF-3......human intelligence at it's finest. You'd THINK the smart thing would be to leave it at Tirol.......you know the planet they have effectively taken over and likely fortified against attack at this point.

[ShadowLogan]

Unsurprisingly, their performance is also generally markedly lower in all or almost all respects... so there is some room for this to be a viable explanation. It may simply be that they're drawing less power from the reactor for other systems as well... remember, those engines aren't just making it fly, they're also generating all of its electrical power.

That doesn't really work.

Outside of Fighter Mode, every VF when in equivalent form (when available) per RT.com Infopedia is equal to or faster than a VF-1 in comparable mode (range is something like 100%-248% of the VF-1 in the same mode). And these are the more drag intensive forms the Veritechs can assume. They certainly have to have either more engine power available in this mode, or they have some type of drag reduction technology.

They are also almost without exception heavier. Between ~25% and ~220 Heavier, the Logan is lighter (48% of the mass) than a VF-1. That means if they are slower, we should see proportional drop in speed in all modes, but that is not the case. And the Logan being lighter, should be faster, but it isn't.

Yes I realize the engines are also being used to generate electrical power, but again the ASC VTs are heavily dependent on energy weapons, unlike the VF-1 whose main weapons are missiles and 55mm projectiles. UEEF Veritechs are closer to UEDF:RDF era than UEDF:ASC in this respect. So ASC VTs actually place higher demand on the energy production than the other VTs.

All of this on top of what is supposed to be increased endurance, does not strike me as a simple trade off of performance for endurance. There has to be increases in efficiency going on given the general size reduction trend.

To be brutally precise, what's actually said in the Robotech.com Infopedia definition of the stuff was that it is superior in energy density to "conventional nuclear sources". Exactly what a "conventional nuclear source" is is frustratingly undefined, but the fact is that what's said is not that reflex furnaces will inherently produce more energy than a nuclear reactor... just that for a given unit of fuel volume, protoculture can produce more energy than the "conventional nuclear sources".

If the energy density of the fuel is superior to nuclear, then the output has the potential to be superior to nuclear.

I agree it would help if they clarified what "conventional" nuclear sources actually are.

[Seto Kaiba]

I get the hate for Snooki....but Flava flave? Man.....haterz be hatin...

*sticks a few more pins into his Flavor Flav voodoo doll*

Damn right.

As for the Matrix.....yeah putting it on the SDF-3......human intelligence at it's finest. You'd THINK the smart thing would be to leave it at Tirol.......you know the planet they have effectively taken over and likely fortified against attack at this point.

You'd think they would've had the sense to put it somewhere that wasn't devastated by war after war, and where the Invid and anyone else wouldn't think to look for it.

[jaymz]

Well yeah that too but at least Tirol by this point would be a fortified location....not a ship that has no history whatsoever of being safe by any stretch

[Seto Kaiba]

Well yeah that too but at least Tirol by this point would be a fortified location....not a ship that has no history whatsoever of being safe by any stretch

Now THAT I'm not too sure about... Tirol took a real beating during the liberation (or so we're expected to believe), and the antics of ONE ship that wasn't even putting up a serious fight was enough to throw the garrison force into complete disarray.

[jaymz]

Tirol, still safer than the SDF-3

[mech798]

I get the hate for Snooki....but Flava flave? Man.....haterz be hatin...

*sticks a few more pins into his Flavor Flav voodoo doll*

Damn right.

As for the Matrix.....yeah putting it on the SDF-3......human intelligence at it's finest. You'd THINK the smart thing would be to leave it at Tirol.......you know the planet they have effectively taken over and likely fortified against attack at this point.

You'd think they would've had the sense to put it somewhere that wasn't devastated by war after war, and where the Invid and anyone else wouldn't think to look for it.

The problem is, it doesn't matter *where* you put it. It's still the only source. I mean, remember, just how important the fact that the M1 Abrams had a multi-fuel turbine was, because it was just *that* important to reduce the danger of getting your logistics train cut. Both engineers and the military talk about failure modes, which is when something happens that causes bad stuff to occur and there is no bigger failure mode then "we lose the one thing that keeps our equipment running and we cannot ever replace it."

There is literally no advantage protoculture can give a mecha that would be worth risking that failure mode occurring, as in fact it did. Because at the end of the Shadow Chronicles, the Haydonites don't have to do anything-- they just wait and mankind's doomed. Or they could send out a few fighters every day or so, confident in the fact that they can refuel their mecha while the UEEF is using irreplaceable supplies. It's a really, really annoying plot point, which honestly given the quality shown by shadow chronicles, shouldn't be that surprising.

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem is, it doesn't matter *where* you put it. It's still the only source. [...]

True, but I can think of a bunch of safer places for your one source of fuel than on a battleship commanded by people who make Zap Brannigan look on the ball, out on the front lines of someone else's interstellar war.

I mean, remember, just how important the fact that the M1 Abrams had a multi-fuel turbine was, because it was just *that* important to reduce the danger of getting your logistics train cut.

Yeah, and the same presumably goes for the thermonuclear reaction power systems commonly used in Macross, which are also explicitly described as being multi-fuel. Hydrogen slush is their preferred fuel, but they can apparently even run on some non-nuclear materials.

There is literally no advantage protoculture can give a mecha that would be worth risking that failure mode occurring, as in fact it did. Because at the end of the Shadow Chronicles, the Haydonites don't have to do anything-- they just wait and mankind's doomed.

They don't even have to hide... because humanity would quickly burn out its stores of protoculture just trying to get to grips with the enemy. Folding apparently takes a LOT of protoculture.

[Jefffar]

Quadrupling the amount of time between refuels is a significant tactical, strategic and budgetary advantage.

[Seto Kaiba]

Quadrupling the amount of time between refuels is a significant tactical, strategic and budgetary advantage.

Sure it is... but only if you assume that all other factors are equal.

It becomes far less of a tactical, strategic, and budgetary advantage if, in so doing, you...

• ... become entirely dependent on a new fuel that is considerably more difficult to procure. (aka "Costs more")
• ... are forced to develop a much less reliable chain of supply to a single source with near-zero fault tolerances.
• ... are forced by the design change to include a separate, secondary fuel source just to avoid sacrificing half of your operational regime.
• ... are forced to rely upon an alternate fuel source controlled exclusively by your enemy.
• ... sacrifice overall performance in the name of longer operation times.
• ... lose strategically or tactically advantageous capabilities as a result of loss of performance.
• ... sacrifice stealth by choosing an alternative fuel that actively gives away your presence to the enemy.
• ... mark yourself out as a target to previously uncommitted forces by using said alternate fuel.
• ... make your forces dependent upon a fuel source you don't understand and cannot independently produce.
• ... put your one source of fuel on a front line battleship operating in enemy territory during wartime.

So, you see, the idea that the increased time between refuelings (an aspect that exists only in the RPG) poses a significant tactical, strategic, or budgetary advantage is entirely illusory and false... it carries so many significant tactical and strategic liabilities and is otherwise such a nightmare to implement and maintain, that any gains are buried in a mountain of losses.

[mech798]

Quadrupling the amount of time between refuels is a significant tactical, strategic and budgetary advantage.

It really doesn't. EVery military works on the idea of planning for "worst case". In the case of protoculture "worst case" is "the matrix is destroyed or lost and we then lose the ability to refuel anything that uses protoculture." That's a fatal flaw right there, that no competant military would ever accept. The VF-1 has less time between refuelings than hte alpha it's true, but unless you build a gadget to destroy *all the hydrogen in the universe* you can keep using it. Mount a fusion plant on your homeshiop and you can make as much fuel as you need-- and if you LOSE that ship, we'll, you've lost one ship-- it does nothing to all the other ships out there. Lose the matrix and every ship and mech falls over dead-- permanently.

Also, refueling isn't the only factor. Sure your alpha can fly around forever-- but what happens after it uses the last missile? What about repair? Crew endurance? The month long endurance isn't going to save you from doing a lot of the same thing you need to do on your VF-1 and again, you're dependent on an irreplacable source of power.

Which gets back to: "Did nobody in the UEEG even bother to read books like "what caused the Robotech Master's Empire to fall?" It's not like this was some possibility that was so unlikely it could be discounted-- the loss of the single source of protoculture quite literally sparked the entire series of robotech wars. When you're sitting on a devastated planet, talking to the last representatives of a genetically engineered warrior race who were largely destroyed due to the desparate need to recover the matrix, it's rather unforgivable that nobody bothered to consider just what an insane decision this was.

[Jefffar]

Except they clearly believed there would be protoculture on earth. Indeed there was, for the Regess took it with her. It was that occurring, in conjunction with the loss of the SDF that limited their protocultue supplies. So it isn't completely a single source fuel.

Now the question of why they can't get it from elsewhere isn't answered canonically on screen, but I suspect that before the Loss of the Zentraedi Armada and the corruption of the supply in the Master's ships, there was a lot more protoculture around

[Protoculture]

It was easy enough. As post RTSC, any new fuel source for the UEEF's mecha can be converted back to SLMH. My POV, go back to OSM (Mospeada especially). Remember the PC fuel cells? In the OSM, it is originally HBT cells which is basically a new improved Hydrogen fuel.

So using the same premise, with post two Robotech Wars (I+II) fought by humanity fielding SLMH-fuelled mechas, while the 3rd RT war using PC-fuelled mechas, I found it plausible for humanity to yet again fielded SLMH fuel, but far more efficieny as humanity seems have mature technology in terms of hydrogen fuel production & technology.

As for powering up the space vessels post RTSC, there's Sekitan fuel supplied by Karbarran. Atleast TY in his pre-production art of a transformable Ark Angel also explicitly stated a Sekitan Reflex Cannon.

[Seto Kaiba]

Except they clearly believed there would be protoculture on earth. Indeed there was, for the Regess took it with her. It was that occurring, in conjunction with the loss of the SDF that limited their protocultue supplies. So it isn't completely a single source fuel.

Er... not to put too fine a point on it, but the supplies of protoculture on Earth were under enemy control. That's not a viable line of supply.

[Protoculture]

How would Earth forces need to sustain its mechanised units without PC? Post RTSC would strongly implied surviving PC supplies would be simply restricted to power naval vessels (particularly limited as well) ... then it would make sense for humanity to simply reverted back for a tried & tested SLMH fuel production to power new gen RT mecha.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for powering up the space vessels post RTSC, there's Sekitan fuel supplied by Karbarran. Atleast TY in his pre-production art of a transformable Ark Angel also explicitly stated a Sekitan Reflex Cannon.

There's no caption to that effect on the one existing picture...

How would Earth forces need to sustain its mechanised units without PC? Post RTSC would strongly implied surviving PC supplies would be simply restricted to power naval vessels (particularly limited as well)

But that would effectively hamstring the entire UEEF... as literally everything they use is powered by protoculture in some way or other. Absolutely every piece of powered kit, from their energy small arms right on up the line to the vehicles and mecha all runs on protoculture. Restricting it to ships basically means sending the Expeditionary Forces back to sharp rocks tied to sticks. Since fold drives draw a LOT of protoculture, it's likely that even restricting its use to ships would leave the UEEF high and dry in just a few years without the matrix that's gone walkabout.

[jaymz]

Didn't they say they had a year's worth or less in TSC?

[glitterboy2098]

it's more a case of how long would it take to produce enough non-PC mecha to replace all the Alpha's and such already in use. even with factory sats (which are likely to be prime targets for the haydonites) i doubt you could convert production over and produce enough AGACS or similar mecha to replace all the alpha's and such in service. and with a major conflict in the works against the haydonites, you can't afford to ground whole air wings to save PC while they wait for non-PC replacements.

plus you'd have to reorganize and retrain all the units to use the new gear.. since the non-PC stuff would not have the same doctrines and abilities as the cyclones and Alha's of the UEEF's current force.

[Protoculture]

Didn't they say they had a year's worth or less in TSC?

Then all the more reason to revert back to hydrogen based SLMH or HBT fuel cell technology (adapted from PC cell tech).

Although I have a sinking feeling, with all the SLMH & the sudden disappearance of PC post RTSC, it is another attempt by TPTB at HG to slowly distancing official RT-verse from Protoculture term, a legacy from SDF Macross & its derivative. We've seen the Zentraedi been phased out of the continuity courtesy of PTTSC & RTSC.

[Seto Kaiba]

Didn't they say they had a year's worth or less in TSC?

Considering they believed the war to be over, that 1 year estimate they give probably isn't for keeping the fleet on a war footing either... that reserve wouldn't last as long under combat conditions. Since SSL was also one of their primary ship yards, one has to wonder how much of that 1 year reserve was destroyed by Vince Grant's destruction of the station.

Then all the more reason to revert back to hydrogen based SLMH or HBT fuel cell technology (adapted from PC cell tech).

But that takes a significant investment of time, energy, and resources... none of which the UEEF has now that its primary R&D facility has been destroyed by the detonation of its neutron-s warhead stockpile, its fleet (which wasn't exactly huge before) decimated by the Invid and the Haydonites, and one of its principal factory satellites and shipyards crushed into a singularity while their sole source of fuel is in enemy hands.

Although I have a sinking feeling, with all the SLMH & the sudden disappearance of PC post RTSC, it is another attempt by TPTB at HG to slowly distancing official RT-verse from Protoculture term, a legacy from SDF Macross & its derivative. We've seen the Zentraedi been phased out of the continuity courtesy of PTTSC & RTSC.

's more like he's trying to bring Robotech closer to its Macross origins in the hopes of making it more marketable by removing the silly mysticism from the stuff and turning it into a mundane power source. There are certain things they HAD to get rid of for copyright reasons, but protoculture isn't one of them... partly because "protoculture" is really a term from cultural anthropology (Macross uses it in its traditional sense, essentially) and Robotech makes it mean a completely different thing. Robotech's protoculture has its roots more in Southern Cross than any other title...

[ShadowLogan]

it's more a case of how long would it take to produce enough non-PC mecha to replace all the Alpha's and such already in use.

Why the assumption that they have to replace the existing designs per say (yes I realize the Haydonites likely have the designs). They could look at retro-fitting existing mecha with new powerplant/engines as a near term solution and save the "new" designs as a long term solution. I would think the new engines/powerplant approach would be quicker, since the alternative would include much more additional new work to put in (including testing) unless they merely resurrect older designs (for copyright reasons we know they aren't).

Er... not to put too fine a point on it, but the supplies of protoculture on Earth were under enemy control. That's not a viable line of supply.

Short-term yes, but the UEEF was moving to liberate Earth in the Long-Term. So it could theoretically have access to those supplies.

Absolutely every piece of powered kit, from their energy small arms right on up the line to the vehicles and mecha all runs on protoculture.

Yes and no. While everything gets its energy from Protoculture, in many cases it shouldn't be a technical show stopper in switching them over to alternate energy sources unless the equipment is that picky about where it gets its energy (like Fold Drives, Reflex Furnaces). And the ASC does show that much of the technology could be changed over since they no longer are supposed to use PC. There might be some slight performance/endurance issues, but it should work in the overall picture.

Considering they believed the war to be over, that 1 year estimate they give probably isn't for keeping the fleet on a war footing either... that reserve wouldn't last as long under combat conditions. Since SSL was also one of their primary ship yards, one has to wonder how much of that 1 year reserve was destroyed by Vince Grant's destruction of the station.

Possibly, but there are several factors that might have that 1 year supply estimate may include:
-was the UEEF just going to let the Invid run
-what about the other potential low-intensity actions (space pirates, actions on the surface)

While SSL probably took a portion of the supply, how many potential users did its loss remove in relation to that. Depending on that works out it could be a gain/loss/break-even.

[Seto Kaiba]

Er... not to put too fine a point on it, but the supplies of protoculture on Earth were under enemy control. That's not a viable line of supply.

Short-term yes, but the UEEF was moving to liberate Earth in the Long-Term. So it could theoretically have access to those supplies.

It's also a long-term yes, because the UEEF never did manage to capture the Invid protoculture production facilities. That means that, for the entirety of the war, they were dependent on the fuel coming from the one protoculture matrix for their forces, or what could be stolen (at great risk) from Invid sympathizers.

As the series itself makes no secret, that is NOT a reliable chain of supply.

Absolutely every piece of powered kit, from their energy small arms right on up the line to the vehicles and mecha all runs on protoculture.

Yes and no. While everything gets its energy from Protoculture, in many cases it shouldn't be a technical show stopper in switching them over to alternate energy sources unless the equipment is that picky about where it gets its energy (like Fold Drives, Reflex Furnaces).

It's taken as read, thanks to the information about the New Generation's equipment, that modifying kit back to using more conventional power sources is probably a no-go without significant modification... even in the RPG. Protoculture powered systems seem to require rather specialized and non-standard fittings, which (in the RPG) makes it difficult for fusion or an alternative power source to be adapted to power the systems.

(Crippling overspecialization at its finest.)

And the ASC does show that much of the technology could be changed over since they no longer are supposed to use PC. There might be some slight performance/endurance issues, but it should work in the overall picture.

... the ASC not using protoculture was a pseudo-retcon though (since it was assumed, but never stated, that it ran on the stuff). It doesn't prove that the UEEF can adapt protoculture-driven systems to more conventional power sources... all it DOES prove is that there's no reason to have protoculture, because you can do just as well using equipment that was designed and built to use regular power sources.

[ShadowLogan]

It's also a long-term yes, because the UEEF never did manage to capture the Invid protoculture production facilities. That means that, for the entirety of the war, they were dependent on the fuel coming from the one protoculture matrix for their forces, or what could be stolen (at great risk) from Invid sympathizers.

I don't see how the UEEF in space is going to be able to steel PC from symapth groups on Earth and return it to space given the track record known with the 3 attack waves from space (one w/shadow tech) appear to have been 1 way trips.

Still, had the Invid not taken Earth's PC stockpile with them, the UEEF would not be in the shape its in which is what the UEEF may have been planning on. They did not seem to expect the Invid to leave.

It's taken as read, thanks to the information about the New Generation's equipment, that modifying kit back to using more conventional power sources is probably a no-go without significant modification... even in the RPG. Protoculture powered systems seem to require rather specialized and non-standard fittings, which (in the RPG) makes it difficult for fusion or an alternative power source to be adapted to power the systems.

Within the context of the Series itself. It is pretty vague in what can be done. Hell the show is pretty vague about just what the 2 previous arcs are actually using for fuel for the most part. Still a conversion should be possible, and it should be easier than a whole new design (real-life X-15 went from dual engines from the X-1 to a single new engine AND a different Fuel, though both used the same oxidizer).

Within the 2E RPG verse it is more doable (looking at powerplants in 2E NG SB, not every vehicle is PC fueled, and it mentions that hydrogen stations are still available pg53 in MT-21 entry). Every major PC using system (baring IMU) has a more "conventional" backup system available to it (regenerative braking, flex-fuel, or fusion are common) in those two books.

At least for non-mecha (vehicles), those back-up systems could replace the PC system with a fuel tank to extend range.

With the larger mecha (and vehicles that use their standard equipment), it should be possible to adapt replace the backup system and main system with a uniform fusion system with the necessary output (given the penalties it likely points to the system not having sufficient output in fusion mode, or the PC engines are PC-enhanced fusion systems). And we know they can build fusion systems of sufficient size (Alpha is in the size range of the ASC mecha, and the Beta is in the RDF size range for mecha) and performance. It also makes sense that those systems are made to be removed and replaced, so the main issue is getting properly designed replacements to fit in.

Smaller mecha (Cyclone, maybe even Silverback) are in that quasi-area between the two. One could "charge" the regenerative braking system externally, and maybe even replace the PC cell with a battery. Though here they essentially become non-mecha. The ASC PA Fuel-cell stack might allow a Silverback to function (Battloid mode vs nt-Battloid is similar size for the actual frame, ignoring the Silverback's turret). The Cyclones might be to small to salvage.

It is interesting to note that one infantry weapon does have the option of using either PC-energy clip or a conventional energy clip. SAL-9 pg185m. That would mean that it is possible to switch over the infantry weapons to conventional energy clips at the expense of payload (IF the SAL-9 is typical it points to a 830/40 or ~20:1 for easy conversion).

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't see how the UEEF in space is going to be able to steel PC from symapth groups on Earth and return it to space given the track record known with the 3 attack waves from space (one w/shadow tech) appear to have been 1 way trips.

They wouldn't be able to... but then again, the ground forces COULD NOT depend on being able to capture and use the Invid's stockpiles of the stuff to sustain their assault. They had literally no choice but to sustain lines of supply into space to their sole source of fuel.

That's a dangerously poor practice from any logistical standpoint.

Within the context of the Series itself. It is pretty vague in what can be done. Hell the show is pretty vague about just what the 2 previous arcs are actually using for fuel for the most part. Still a conversion should be possible, [...]

Speaking as an engineer, especially one who currently works on vehicle powertrains, I doubt it would be easy (or even possible) to convert a protoculture-powered vehicle to something less exotic without a significant rebuild of the vehicle itself. Protoculture is supposed to be a new power technology radically different from anything humanity had before...

[ShadowLogan]

They wouldn't be able to... but then again, the ground forces COULD NOT depend on being able to capture and use the Invid's stockpiles of the stuff to sustain their assault. They had literally no choice but to sustain lines of supply into space to their sole source of fuel.

No they could not depend on it, but Scott does say something to the effect robbing the enemies PC supply to Annie ("Curtain Call" IINM, sorry don't have an exact quote).

Speaking as an engineer, especially one who currently works on vehicle powertrains, I doubt it would be easy (or even possible) to convert a protoculture-powered vehicle to something less exotic without a significant rebuild of the vehicle itself. Protoculture is supposed to be a new power technology radically different from anything humanity had before...

I don't think it would be easy, but it certainly would be easier and quicker than an entire new build. Aircraft do receive new engine/powerplants (sometimes between block/model). It would be more a matter of designing an alternate system to take advantage of the existing infrastructure (and space) of the mecha in question.

There is also the issue of if the PC/Reflex Furnaces use 1 Substance or 3 Substances. In "Bye Bye Mars", a Reflex Furnace schematic has 3 different color feed lines (green, yellow, blue). What each feed is for can't be sure, and it might not apply to mecha scale power plants, but it does open up the possibility of PC powerplant/engines could be "retuned" to work on the a bi-fuel instead of tri-fuel depending on how PC works in the reaction (does it work like Florine in a LH2/LOX engine improving performance OR are all 3 necessary?)

[rem1093]

Wasn't the Alpha built pre-pioneer mission? Because if it was then wouldn't that mode fun on SLMH, just like everything else. So changing back shouldn't be that hard since the designs already exist. I think that the Cyclone would have a biggest problem with fuel.
How long would it take to build a new Matrix? Because that would be the first thing I would have the Guys back on Tirol do.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think it would be easy, but it certainly would be easier and quicker than an entire new build. Aircraft do receive new engine/powerplants (sometimes between block/model).

This, I think, is a false parallel... while it's true that aircraft do sometimes receive new engines during routine service life upgrades, the two sets of engines typically work on the same engine technology. They're using the same (or very similar) fuel, operating on the same principles...

Rebuilding an Alpha fighter to convert it from its original protoculture fuel cell turbines to fusion turbines is more like rebuilding a battery-electric car into a conventional diesel one. It takes a LOT of time, a lot of effort, and in many cases it won't be entirely practical. (I've actually got some practical experience in doing the reverse... it ain't fun and it ain't easy.)

There is also the issue of if the PC/Reflex Furnaces use 1 Substance or 3 Substances. In "Bye Bye Mars", a Reflex Furnace schematic has 3 different color feed lines (green, yellow, blue). What each feed is for can't be sure, and it might not apply to mecha scale power plants, but it does open up the possibility of PC powerplant/engines could be "retuned" to work on the a bi-fuel instead of tri-fuel depending on how PC works in the reaction (does it work like Florine in a LH2/LOX engine improving performance OR are all 3 necessary?)

Considering the source material, it's intensely unlikely that the three lines are actually all fuel in that diagram... it's far more likely that one line (two at the most) is fuel and at least one of the others is coolant. Then again, one may not be a fluid line at all... it could be an energy pipe to prime the reactor's 10+ dimensional systems in the original.

Wasn't the Alpha built pre-pioneer mission? Because if it was then wouldn't that mode fun on SLMH, just like everything else.

Depends on who you ask... the official source suggest that the Alpha fighter was in service at the very beginning of the Pioneer Expedition, which is to a certain extent corroborated by "the new comics" under DC/Wildstorm which show the Alpha's prototype as being in testing in 2015 alongside the YF-4. The RPG sort of goes its own way and asserts that it wasn't until a LONG time after that that the Alpha was actually introduced in any numbers.

The RPG tries to rationalize the 2015-era development of the Alpha using protoculture while a number of other designs from the same period use fusion or other fuel systems by arguing the Southern Cross Army had to make do with what it had and/or was slightly butthurt over being treated as second-class to the UEEF. The Alpha was developed to use protoculture and ONLY protoculture... while the other mecha of its same era were developed to use fusion or regular fuel cells or what have you.

How long would it take to build a new Matrix? Because that would be the first thing I would have the Guys back on Tirol do.

It may well be impossible... the only people left who may have had a clue how to do it were the Robotech Masters, and they died in the 2nd Robotech War. The Masters sort of suggested the construction of a matrix required unmutated flowers of life, and with the flowers on earth being mutated and then taken by the Regess, that may be a no-go simply on those grounds before a lack of technical proficiency even becomes an issue.

The biggest obstacle, apart from a shortage of material, is that there doesn't appear to be any person left alive who knows how one actually works...

[mech798]

It may well be impossible... the only people left who may have had a clue how to do it were the Robotech Masters, and they died in the 2nd Robotech War. The Masters sort of suggested the construction of a matrix required unmutated flowers of life, and with the flowers on earth being mutated and then taken by the Regess, that may be a no-go simply on those grounds before a lack of technical proficiency even becomes an issue.

The biggest obstacle, apart from a shortage of material, is that there doesn't appear to be any person left alive who knows how one actually works...

Yeah-- "magic box" actually really does describe the matrix, at least as humanity understood it. That'd be a heck of a sequal-- humanity and everyone else defeated by some alien Empire that took one look at protoculture, said "nope" and stomps everyone else under mass produced fusion powered robotech versions of T-34 tanks. Easy to build, simple and fast to repalce.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah-- "magic box" actually really does describe the matrix, at least as humanity understood it.

Since it's supposed to be purely technological, I suppose it really fits the definition of a black box system only too well... it works, but nobody knows HOW.

That'd be a heck of a sequal-- humanity and everyone else defeated by some alien Empire that took one look at protoculture, said "nope" and stomps everyone else under mass produced fusion powered robotech versions of T-34 tanks. Easy to build, simple and fast to repalce.

Considering where Harmony Gold set the scale of destructive potential for robotechnology weaponry... it's odds-on that any modern military could probably take the UEEF simply by weight of numbers, since the weapons used in the New Generation's animation and RTSC are either on par with their modern equivalents or only marginally better.

[ShadowLogan]

This, I think, is a false parallel... while it's true that aircraft do sometimes receive new engines during routine service life upgrades, the two sets of engines typically work on the same engine technology. They're using the same (or very similar) fuel, operating on the same principles...

In all likely hood any change in engine/power reactor will likely be pushed into a new block/model standard in this. So the mecha in question could also receive additional alterations to accommodate changes to the replacement system. And depending on the extent of those changes, it may be possible to re-manufacture existing platforms to the new standard. There are also some unknowns IMHO with the PC aspect that we can't say for sure.

Comparison to fuel. Valid. I will point to the X-15 again. Initial interim Main Rocket engine pair taken from the X-1 used ethyl alcohol as a fuel, but the single main engine it acquired for regular use later used ammonia. Both substances have multiple different properties (both engines used LOX for oxidizer). A similar situation may exist with PC and SLMH, this is just one aspect about PC IMHO that makes it difficult to say for sure.

While I expect a drop in endurance compared to PC, it should still be possible to maintain performance.

Rebuilding an Alpha fighter to convert it from its original protoculture fuel cell turbines to fusion turbines is more like rebuilding a battery-electric car into a conventional diesel one.

IT COULD BE, BUT IT DOE NOT HAVE TO. It may also be closer to trading battery type in that battery-electric car engine than needing to replace everything about the engine/transmission.

If the 2E RPG's backup fusion system really represents HG's thinking on UEEF designs (and not an RPG only aspect). That would point toward the easier conversion only requiring a more potent fusion system installed in place of the backup fusion/main PC since the UEEF designs already make allowances for fusion systems. The PC Cell bay(s) and any associated system could be adapted (or replaced) with fusion equivalents to service the fusion engine.

Considering the source material, it's intensely unlikely that the three lines are actually all fuel in that diagram... it's far more likely that one line (two at the most) is fuel and at least one of the others is coolant. Then again, one may not be a fluid line at all...

I have considered the idea coolant may be in one or more lines, I don't discount it. It is merely one option of many for what could be in any one of them.

the official source suggest that the Alpha fighter was in service at the very beginning of the Pioneer Expedition, which is to a certain extent corroborated by "the new comics" under DC/Wildstorm which show the Alpha's prototype as being in testing in 2015 alongside the YF-4.

While Wildstorm shows the Alpha testing in 2015, they also seem to have the Alpha as "new" in the "Invasion" comic series, L&W includes Alphas, but I don't know of any dialogue connected with them establishing "freshness". This does mesh with the 2E RPG idea of distribution though.

Wasn't the Alpha built pre-pioneer mission? Because if it was then wouldn't that mode fun on SLMH, just like everything else. So changing back shouldn't be that hard since the designs already exist. I think that the Cyclone would have a biggest problem with fuel.

The Alpha certainly pre-dates the SDF-3 launch aspect of the pioneer mission. So designs may or may not exist of it as a SLMH consumer (rather than PC). The PC use may have been part of the design from the beginning though.

The Cyclone's issue with fuel IMHO isn't so much the fuel itself, but rather the endurance it will have as a result. It may no longer be practical.

It may well be impossible... the only people left who may have had a clue how to do it were the Robotech Masters, and they died in the 2nd Robotech War. The Masters sort of suggested the construction of a matrix required unmutated flowers of life, and with the flowers on earth being mutated and then taken by the Regess, that may be a no-go simply on those grounds before a lack of technical proficiency even becomes an issue.

Invid likely have their own method to producing Protoculture and they are still around. The UEEF/humans and Invid currently have a common enemy, and we know the Invid are capable of negotiating with the humans (Wolfe, Norristown, NG#2 community). Sera & Ariel may know where the Regis went and they may also know how to produce PC.

Also while the FoL had mutated at the Mounds in TRM, it is possible that the mutation was not passed on to the FoL offspring.

[Seto Kaiba]

In all likely hood any change in engine/power reactor will likely be pushed into a new block/model standard in this. So the mecha in question could also receive additional alterations to accommodate changes to the replacement system.

Profoundly unlikely, IMO... but not entirely beyond the bounds of possibility.

Comparison to fuel. Valid. I will point to the X-15 again.

Yes, but the North American X-15 wasn't using turbines or anything of the kind... it's a ROCKET plane, and rocket designs are a little more forgiving of changes in fuel and engine design as the engine itself is mechanically less complex.

IT COULD BE, BUT IT DOE NOT HAVE TO. It may also be closer to trading battery type in that battery-electric car engine than needing to replace everything about the engine/transmission.

From what little description we've been given, it seems fairly self-evident that protoculture is a power source radically different in implementation from anything humanity has had before... the idea that it could be as simple as changing types of battery (say Ni-MH to Li+, like I've done in electric vehicles) is kind of ludicrous. This is more like upgrading a steam locomotive to use an all-new diesel electric generator... a radical rethink of the entire power system.

If the 2E RPG's backup fusion system really represents HG's thinking on UEEF designs (and not an RPG only aspect).

Its ongoing absence from any official material suggests it's probably a RPG-only aspect.

While Wildstorm shows the Alpha testing in 2015, they also seem to have the Alpha as "new" in the "Invasion" comic series, L&W includes Alphas, but I don't know of any dialogue connected with them establishing "freshness". This does mesh with the 2E RPG idea of distribution though.

There are new variants of Alpha that were introduced around that time though... so there's an explanation that doesn't require ANY contradiction. You have to admit, it makes perfect sense for them to be referring to the atmosphere-optimized -Z variant.

Also while the FoL had mutated at the Mounds in TRM, it is possible that the mutation was not passed on to the FoL offspring.

Er... are we a tad unclear on how reproduction works? Mutations are changes in genetic code, which would by definition be passed on to offspring.

[ShadowLogan]

Profoundly unlikely, IMO... but not entirely beyond the bounds of possibility.

The reality is that there are areas in Robotech that leave a lot of wiggle room, and that wiggle room effects the possibilities. It might be better in those situations to list the possibilities (or the range), instead of taking a more narrow approach in general. (And I am not singling anyone out in this respect)

Yes, but the North American X-15 wasn't using turbines or anything of the kind... it's a ROCKET plane, and rocket designs are a little more forgiving of changes in fuel and engine design as the engine itself is mechanically less complex.

you might be surprised. Turbines are a part of the engine (used in the pump). Nor is a rocket engine as forgiving with fuel as you think. You can't put LOX/LH2 fuel from a J-2/RL-10/SSME Rocket Engine into a hypergolic type engine (say from the old Titan II Rocket) and expect it to work either, even though both use chemical reaction between two propellants. Some of the more advanced types (electric, NTR) certainly can be more forgiving on paper. What you do see with rocket engines though is diversity in propellant options.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... asp?id=890

The X-15 also went from 2 (TWO) Main Engines for initial flights down to 1 (ONE) Main ENGINE (singular). So we have an example of a craft that had an extensiveness change to it's Propulsion System. Not only did the NUMBER of MAIN ENGINES change, but also the fuel. So yes it can be done.

From what little description we've been given, it seems fairly self-evident that protoculture is a power source radically different in implementation from anything humanity has had before... the idea that it could be as simple as changing types of battery (say Ni-MH to Li+, like I've done in electric vehicles) is kind of ludicrous. This is more like upgrading a steam locomotive to use an all-new diesel electric generator... a radical rethink of the entire power system.

I have to disagree here. What we have seen is just the opposite. That it is versatile in implementation isn't odd either on the surface (look at the way Hydrogen can be utilized, combustion, fusion, non-combustion chemical reactions, in thermal heating type rocket engines it IS THE working fluid of choice). That isn't to say PC doesn't have some radical uses (BMI), but it also seems to have some very relatable approaches.

If the OSM baseline is considered, the UEEF mecha are basically using PC as if it was in a fuel cell. And there are different types of fuel cells. SDF:M applications would boil down to a form of nuclear fusion. That's if one uses the OSM to get an idea of what's going on. Even w/o it's interpretation, we can see PC can be used in a more "conventional" sense, but there are times it is more "exotic".

There are new variants of Alpha that were introduced around that time though... so there's an explanation that doesn't require ANY contradiction. You have to admit, it makes perfect sense for them to be referring to the atmosphere-optimized -Z variant.

While new Alpha variants and other updates are said to be around, Invasion has the Alpha slated to replace the Conbats in Lancer's unit. So it shows that the UEEF was slow in distribution of the new mecha and it does not seem to have permeated deeply into the force structure (and Lancer's group was trained on the Alpha, but they would be using their old Conbat, and apparently there where no Alphas/VFs for the entire 10th MD).

Its ongoing absence from any official material suggests it's probably a RPG-only aspect.

But what official material has actually come out since the March 2008 1st printing of the 2E RPG? Art of the Shadow Chronicles has 2007 date in the copy right. The Infopedia is seldom touched, even to add actual new material (or even correct typos like the one noticeable in the Shadow Fighter File).

Er... are we a tad unclear on how reproduction works? Mutations are changes in genetic code, which would by definition be passed on to offspring.

I understand how mutations work. I was referring to Germinal and Somatic Mutations types, and the Somatic mutation IS NOT passed on to potential off spring. I apologize, I could not recall the terminology I was looking for at the time and an internet search proved fruitless in finding the terms at the time.

http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/pls ... ation2.htm

Even assuming we are dealing with Germinal Mutation, it is possible for the reproduction process to correct the mutation w/n a generation if the resulting offspring are sterile from the mutation. Breeding can also weed out the mutation (this will take multiple generations).