Rifts Nations Air Defences

[Commander]

I am unsure as i might need more books such as the Coalition or Northern Gun ect. But in Rifts Mercenaries pg 146 it mentions it briefly.Also Pg 114 as it talks about the AC-29 Air Castle Bomber. I would guess the CS has pretty good air defences but not as strong as lets say the NGR who is very high tech and is constantly at war from what i remember, "Northern Gun" might have slightly lower tech defences than the CS yet has greater saturation, Or any major existing kingdom mentioned or Created by a Gm.

So the question is how strong are the Air Defences ? since the CS can shoot down AC-29 bombers 100 miles out side of CS Airspace. Also each kingdom differs so this is a question i had for a bit now.

[kaid]

I am unsure as i might need more books such as the Coalition or Northern Gun ect. But in Rifts Mercenaries pg 146 it mentions it briefly.Also Pg 114 as it talks about the AC-29 Air Castle Bomber. I would guess the CS has pretty good air defences but not as strong as lets say the NGR who is very high tech and is constantly at war from what i remember, "Northern Gun" might have slightly lower tech defences than the CS yet has greater saturation, Or any major existing kingdom mentioned or Created by a Gm.

So the question is how strong are the Air Defences ? since the CS can shoot down AC-29 bombers 100 miles out side of CS Airspace. Also each kingdom differs so this is a question i had for a bit now.

Well one way the CS decided to defend its airspace from things like air castle bombers was they invaded new kenora and took over iron heart armaments truly a hostile takeover thus no more air castle bombers being made.

Triax and the CS both have reasonably good air superiority fighters and one must assume copious amounts of medium/long range missiles at any major base/city.

One can assume that any medium/large sized city state with the ability to manufacture missiles probably has at least reasonable 100 mile coverage around any major city/outpost with long range missile emplacements.

The trickier thing to defend against is probably low level nape of the earth incursions due to all the man sized fast power armor/hover cycles/jet bikes/sky cycle type things low altitude small in size and fast.

[glitterboy2098]

because of the speed based to hit penalties, it can be very difficult to shoot down LRM's, and your best bet is to out fly them or 'soft kill' them with ECM/flares/chaff etc.

on the other hand, a high speed flying target moving flat out could penetrate most air defenses pretty easily due to the same issue.. the +3 or +5 of a missile is nothing compared to the -31 of a Grey Falcon.

the CS's defenses are notable mainly in that they have more depth (multiple rings of missile based anti-air emplacements, as well as Skycycles, SAMAS, and full on jet fighters) and cover a much larger area than most of the other nations. (most other nations really can only boast missile based anti-air, and a few skycycle type units. they also tend to be pretty small, giving little strategic or tactical depth to the defenses)

you need high speeed flying units to intercept high speed enemies (thus bringing to penalties to strike down), and depth of defenses so you have multiple chances to get that golden BB..

that said, magical kingdoms with creative mages could do pretty good for defense.. even ignoring the obvious ideas of "warlocks summon air elementals".. summoning storms in the path of the enemy, or using invisibility spells to make high value targets difficult to see/target, etc..

[flatline]

If you can get close enough, Call Lightning is perfect for shooting down missiles since it hits automatically.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

If you can get close enough, Call Lightning is perfect for shooting down missiles since it hits automatically.

--flatline

But it takes two actions to cast - the missiles will have already hit their target or at least have zoomed far out of the range of Call Lightning before you finish the spell.

[flatline]

If you can get close enough, Call Lightning is perfect for shooting down missiles since it hits automatically.

--flatline

But it takes two actions to cast - the missiles will have already hit their target or at least have zoomed far out of the range of Call Lightning before you finish the spell.

One action via Talisman or if it's the Warlock version (level 3).

If you wanted, you could chain-summon Phantoms and have them form a ring. They can cast Call Lightning at, I think, a 400' range (Phantoms have all air spells levels 1-4, so I'm guessing they cast as a 4th level caster).

Also, if you can see it coming, you can start casting before it's in range. It only has to be in range when you finish casting and the actual effect occurs.

--flatline

[Commander]

CS Had plans but i am unsure at the current state of things since i am using old books and might need the Coalition book. I think the CS is more worried about Dragons or the Like in my opinion. Yet what about the other non CS nations also lets not forget them.

Also i would expect any GM to have several Mercenary units not to mention a militia at New Kenora even there shipyards further down. Not to mention the CS would have to cross near a Xiticix Hive near Dryden so any attack would give them ample warning unless it was from the air thus i am sure CS would find Grey Falcons and Ground Based SAM's shooting down Death Head transports. Not to mention the fact that the Xiticix would control most of the area as the CS would have Iron Heart do it as it seems Free Quebec is being left out of the Cs strategic thinking. With that in mind they would run into the little monsters who would no doubt fight to the death against any CS incursion.


On a Commanders scale of one to twenty twenty being very high tech like Phase world tech one being people armed with muskets i would rate CS Air Defences at around 8 as they are well equipped. Yet even so it would take a small army of techs to not only man the radar installations but to perform constant around the clock maintenance.

On comparison with lets say the New German Republic who's tech level is quite large. I would rate them as a 10 even 11 in some cases due to the fact they have been at war with Gargoyles for years thus would have quite a dense ring of air defences as well if not better then the CS. Its hard to say about places like Atlantis as it could be anything from a dragon to a high tech bio cannon.

The problem with Any Air Force is when you are attacking that you will need to be resupplied or it will be a long flight back full of other dangers such as enemy air craft dragons or other flying creatures who could be pressed into service. Ammo repairs or the like. CS has Powered armor and Sky Cycles not to mention the Nightwing and Mobile SAM stations Such as the Mark IX.(Surface to Air Missile.)

Cs would run into the same constraints unless they are willing to set up supply lines and have clear attack lanes. That would tip most high tech towns or the like. Magic spells can work but it would be better used at very close range when troops are dropping in or when the enemy is most vulnerable.

Air Defences on the ground can be taken out with wild weasel missions, Commando strikes. Low level cruise missile strikes or sabotage.

Using magic unless its a TK device or other in Air to Air or Air to Ground combat missions against bot or fast moving aircraft would be difficult to pull off as you would have only one shot as it rained its payload all over you. Power armor, Sky Cycles and Helicopters are slower depending on the type. Some power armor is pretty fast so it would depend.

Unsure how magic Kingdoms like Lazlo or Tolkeen air defences worked before the CS war.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

CS Had plans but i am unsure at the current state of things since i am using old books and might need the Coalition book. I think the CS is more worried about Dragons or the Like in my opinion. Yet what about the other non CS nations also lets not forget them.

Also i would expect any GM to have several Mercenary units not to mention a militia at New Kenora even there shipyards further down. Not to mention the CS would have to cross near a Hive near Dryden so any attack would give them ample warning unless it was from the air thus i am sure CS would find Grey Falcons and Ground Based SAM's shooting down Death Head transports.

Im not even sure what this is referencing.

On a Commanders scale of one to twenty twenty being very high tech like Phase world tech one being people armed with muskets i would rate CS Air Defences at around 8 as they are well equipped. Yet even so it would take a small army of techs to not only man the radar installations but to perform constant around the clock maintenance.

Well it's a good thing they have a truly gigantic military to do such things. Like, millions of guys under arms.

The problem with Any Air Force is when you are attacking that you will need to be resupplied or it will be a long flight back full of other dangers such as enemy air craft dragons or other flying creatures who could be pressed into service. Ammo repairs or the like. CS has Powered armor and Sky Cycles not to mention the Nightwing and Mobile SAM stations Such as the Mark IX.(Surface to Air Missile.)

Almost any of the places that the Coalition would care to attack, their fighters could be in and out in less than an hour. And their fighters have good high-powered dogfighting weaponry that tend to have unlimited ammo. Supply really isn't an issue for "getting home".

Cs would run into the same constraints unless they are willing to set up supply lines and have clear attack lanes. That would tip most high tech towns or the like.

Or they could send in a company of CS Rangers with target designators and obliterate almost any nation other than the Big Guys (Lazlo, FQ, FoM, Pecos Empire (largely because they're too scattered), etc) from Chi-town. LRM's can go up to 1800 miles; the CS can strike almost all of North America from their large bases without ever leaving. It's one of the reasons i dont really buy places like the Colorado Baronies and Arzno even existing.... the Baronies particularly are only about 300 miles from CS Chi-Town/Iowa. They pose no threat of any kind and should have been taken out as a haven of magic users and technowizardry years ago.

Most nations probably have fairly pitiful air defenses - probably a few SAM sites linked to Radar installations, maybe a small air force of flying power armor or hover-type vehicles (Sky King, Sky Cycle, etc) - very few have the money to have real jets/fighter aircraft. Places like the Colorado Baronies, for instance, probably have next to NO air defenses. They dont have the money, size, or manufacturing capability to afford it. Places like Kingsdale probably have pretty comprehensive, if limited AA - SAM sites and a decent (company) sized set of flying Power Armor and low-altitude vehicles.

Places like Ishpeming, and the other "Big Guys" that aren't the CS probably have a step better - lots of SAM sites, lots of flying power armor, and a small dedicated air force.

The CS are the only guys on the continent (and, i guess, FQ, hard to remember that they arent still effectively just an adjunct of the CS) with a real air force and full-up air defenses.

[Commander]

Nightwing(PG 149-150 of Rifts Mercenaries0 would be that first strike fighter unless CS plans on sending in massive Cruise missile strikes or the like. It does not have unlimited ammo you over estimate the CS. Only thing it has that would be close is the Laser.

Also is there not some invasion from hell going on ? so i am sure the CS would be on high alert for any Flying Demons or Rifts. Also i figure the other guys are not going to let CS just shoot missiles at them from far away. Using Patriot Batteries or similar anti missile defence systems. to up close. If they can make tanks with anti air features. Iron Heart Armaments i am sure they will be paranoid about Xiticix, Monsters Demons etc. for general defence not to mention other forces under employ.

CS how ever could do the same only with better high tech solutions. At least this is from my understanding of how the CS operates. Best option for Cs would be to Sneak in a bomb or the like even gas using special forces troopers or Skelebots. As that would be better then losing troops or taking the chance the CS will take heavy losses.

Also yes the other Big Nations i am sure will have similar defences. CS is not the only nation on the Planet with better than average air defences. NGR would be a notch or two above CS.

Non Cs nations would not be sitting around. Cs is powerful but they need to be aware of threats. No satellites ect. Not all information about every enemy is found or the CS is even aware of even in places like the Burbs or Chi-Town. Besides the Leaders of the Cs need to look like there are no gaps in there defences even if there is. If any enemy is going to make its self a threat they will be dealt with.

[kaid]

CS Had plans but i am unsure at the current state of things since i am using old books and might need the Coalition book. I think the CS is more worried about Dragons or the Like in my opinion. Yet what about the other non CS nations also lets not forget them.

Also i would expect any GM to have several Mercenary units not to mention a militia at New Kenora even there shipyards further down. Not to mention the CS would have to cross near a Xiticix Hive near Dryden so any attack would give them ample warning unless it was from the air thus i am sure CS would find Grey Falcons and Ground Based SAM's shooting down Death Head transports. Not to mention the fact that the Xiticix would control most of the area as the CS would have Iron Heart do it as it seems Free Quebec is being left out of the Cs strategic thinking. With that in mind they would run into the little monsters who would no doubt fight to the death against any CS incursion.


On a Commanders scale of one to twenty twenty being very high tech like Phase world tech one being people armed with muskets i would rate CS Air Defences at around 8 as they are well equipped. Yet even so it would take a small army of techs to not only man the radar installations but to perform constant around the clock maintenance.

On comparison with lets say the New German Republic who's tech level is quite large. I would rate them as a 10 even 11 in some cases due to the fact they have been at war with Gargoyles for years thus would have quite a dense ring of air defences as well if not better then the CS. Its hard to say about places like Atlantis as it could be anything from a dragon to a high tech bio cannon.

The problem with Any Air Force is when you are attacking that you will need to be resupplied or it will be a long flight back full of other dangers such as enemy air craft dragons or other flying creatures who could be pressed into service. Ammo repairs or the like. CS has Powered armor and Sky Cycles not to mention the Nightwing and Mobile SAM stations Such as the Mark IX.(Surface to Air Missile.)

Cs would run into the same constraints unless they are willing to set up supply lines and have clear attack lanes. That would tip most high tech towns or the like. Magic spells can work but it would be better used at very close range when troops are dropping in or when the enemy is most vulnerable.

Air Defences on the ground can be taken out with wild weasel missions, Commando strikes. Low level cruise missile strikes or sabotage.

Using magic unless its a TK device or other in Air to Air or Air to Ground combat missions against bot or fast moving aircraft would be difficult to pull off as you would have only one shot as it rained its payload all over you. Power armor, Sky Cycles and Helicopters are slower depending on the type. Some power armor is pretty fast so it would depend.

Unsure how magic Kingdoms like Lazlo or Tolkeen air defences worked before the CS war.

One thing to note what defenses iron heart armaments may have had the CS took them down and IHA is under new ownership. The CS managed to get a couple finished/under contruction sea kings cruisers from it. There are a few mentions of what happened to them the most recent being one of the vampire books that talks about a group of the IHA folks doing a delivery run to texas heard about the attack and so they have some of the tech and some of the plans and are currently working to find a place to base out of so they can rebuild and or get revenge vs the CS.

[Commander]

Fee Quebec purchased a small fleet from Iron Heart Armament's not sure if Iron Heart bought anything. Allot of mercenaries did. I do not think that CS got the Shipyards due to it being Farther down not to mention CS Quebec could protest as they are purchasing or purchased such before the CS had a real navy.(I need to get that book CS Navy)

I would expect New Konera to have Laser or Gatling towers with flack or SAM's Towers to shoot down incoming aircraft or missiles. It would not be all exactly coordinated since the tech level is around 1960 in IHA main factory area at New Konera. I would expect mercenary outfits to be protecting them with Grey Falcons or Milita Air Force. Throw in a few gifts for a contract and you have a Mercenary unit at your beck and call for the next few years. Juicer uprisings can show how even a mob can defeat a well armed but not so experienced foe like the CS.

Besides an AC-29 would ruin the CS day. Yep sneak in bomb or Chemical weapon pretending to be mercs. Then launch a surprise attack. Best to locate to some remote area then hit from the ground. Silence Air Defences then call in the Airborne troopers. With Air support. CS wins.

See my comments above.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Nightwing(PG 149-150 of Rifts Mercenaries0 would be that first strike fighter unless CS plans on sending in massive Cruise missile strikes or the like. It does not have unlimited ammo you over estimate the CS. Only thing it has that would be close is the Laser.

Too bad that thing is never, ever refferenced again. The CS stuff in Mercenaries is described as "prototypes" - and are ignored after Mercs. Everything detailed in there is replaced by something better in World Book 11; the CS Talon is superior in just about every way and has good dogfighting/self defense lasers built in, as well as an array of mini-missiles.

Also is there not some invasion from hell going on ?

No, that book is over 8 years overdue. Not happening yet.

so i am sure the CS would be on high alert for any Flying Demons or Rifts.

Which has what to do with anything?

Also i figure the other guys are not going to let CS just shoot missiles at them from far away.

"Not let" - how exactly are they going to STOP them? These other places dont have any way to retaliate or prevent such a strike. Only the Big Guys (NG, FQ, Lazlo, etc) have the tech, power, manufacturing capability, and money to mount a defense against a long-range saturation bombardment. It's not like im talking about the CS just sending a few dozen missiles. I'm talking about a place like Arzno getting bombarded for DAYS by concentrated LRM fire. They only have a finite amount of counter-missile capability (if any, none are mentioned in Arzno's writeup, but ill assume they arent completely stupid and have at least some basic SAM sites). There is quite literally no way for such a small nation to prevent it or deal with it. Tolkeen could only deal with it because the city sat right between THREE Nexus Points, and harnessed them with pyramid magic to provide a shield for the city... otherwise, they'd have been wiped away in an afternoon of bombardment.

Using Patriot Batteries or similar anti missile defence systems. to up close. If they can make tanks with anti air features. Iron Heart Armaments i am sure they will be paranoid about Xiticix, Monsters Demons etc. for general defence not to mention other forces under employ.

Iron Heart Armaments doesn't exist anymore. They were attacked by the Coalition in the opening stages of the Campaign of Unity (World Book 11) and all of their designs and factories seized and given to the Coalition State of Iron Heart. They're defunct. They went down in one night to a small CS commando force.

CS how ever could do the same only with better high tech solutions. At least this is from my understanding of how the CS operates. Best option for Cs would be to Sneak in a bomb or the like even gas using special forces troopers or Skelebots. As that would be better then losing troops or taking the chance the CS will take heavy losses.

Also yes the other Big Nations i am sure will have similar defences. CS is not the only nation on the Planet with better than average air defences. NGR would be a notch or two above CS.

Non Cs nations would not be sitting around. Cs is powerful but they need to be aware of threats. No satellites ect. Not all information about every enemy is found or the CS is even aware of even in places like the Burbs or Chi-Town. Besides the Leaders of the Cs need to look like there are no gaps in there defences even if there is. If any enemy is going to make its self a threat they will be dealt with.

Other than "Triax also has great air defenses", i literally could not follow any of this. It's like one giant run-on sentence. Can you please try to clarify just what it is you're saying?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Fee Quebec purchased a small fleet from Iron Heart Armament's not sure if Iron Heart bought anything. Allot of mercenaries did. I do not think that CS got the Shipyards due to it being Farther down not to mention CS Quebec could protest as they are purchasing or purchased such before the CS had a real navy.(I need to get that book CS Navy)

I would expect New Konera to have Laser or Gatling towers with flack or SAMS to shoot down incoming aircraft or missiles. It would not be all exactly coordinated since the tech level is around 1960 in IHA main factory area. I would expect mercenary outfits to be protecting them with Grey Falcons or Milita Air Force. Throw in a few gifts for a contract and you have a Mercenary unit at your beck and call for the next few years. Juicer uprisings can show how even a mob can defeat a well armed but not so experienced foe like the CS.

See my comments above.

All of your expectations mean precisely nothing; IHA is gone. (see my comments above). Here's a page reference for what im talking about:

The first step in the Campaign of Unity was the State of Iron
Heart acquiring the renegade manufacturer known as Iron Heart
Armaments, located in the independent kingdom of New Kenora
(see Rifts® Mercenaries for details). Iron Heart Armaments
was established by a handful of rogue engineers who discovered
and absconded with several pre-Rifts designs for mega-damage
tanks and armored vehicles. One day two months ago, the people
of New Kenora woke up to find themselves surrounded by the
Coalition Army. They had noticed a division or two of CS troopers
on maneuvers along the border of Xiticix territory north of
Minnesota, but had thought nothing of it. Additional forces came
from the State of Iron Heart and caught the community by surprise.
Resistance meant total obliteration, so the community surrendered.
New Kenora and Iron Heart Armaments are now the latest
addition to the holdings of the Coalition State of Iron Heart.

They're gone. They woke up one morning and found out they had already lost.

[Commander]

Ah well i am a bit out of Date. I expected such. IHA is gone unless the revolt or some such really up to a GM to decide that or Palladium at some point. Even Juicers were able to hold back the CS so i will wait to see what happens.(See Juicer Uprisings)

CS i am sure have new toys with there Own CS Book.

Also you need to be aware of a threat before just letting loose missiles. I mean just punching the air would look silly if you are not doing it for a reason. Practicing or the like. So Unless the CS is developing new weapons be silly just to fire them off at nothing but trees. No they rather blow up some peaceful D-bee village or the like.

Also you need to have good intel on enemy's location, numbers, civilian population. In RIfts satellites and GPS is not working. due to Ley Lines not to mention EM interference and the fact no one knows whats in space except it might be Junk or just they stopped working. So that means CS and other nations must have intel not to mention its 200 years into the future and most of the land is wilderness. Sending in spies ect ect. Not everything has a high tech solution. Also just blowing up city's with vampires would be silly or demons as you will need eyes on the ground to make sure most of them are not around any longer to strike back.

Yes ticking off vampires not to mention others would not be such a hot idea for the CS. Since you would need to use wood or water even Uv rays it would not be a worthwhile effort unless CS feels threatened by a Nation or the Like. Not saying they will not go to war. Or they will not destroy demons vampires or monsters in general when they come across them. But CS is not going to knock over every ant hill.

Besides i am sure the CS will run into Splugorth eventually. Then there target meter will rise again. As CS sees themselves surrounded mostly by enemies anyways. It takes more effort to punch in allot of directions instead of one punch one a time for the desired effect. Anyways i digress.

CS would be better off tackling things it can take on its own size or absorbing more into the CS war effort. So destroying a few nations around it one at a time then absorbing them into the whole would be better than shooting missiles at humans who could be willing tools or have tech to help CS in the future.

If the town was full of monsters i could see them using such brutal force. Besides unless you are going to use fire fighting planes against vampires or have an inventive way to bomb them its just silly to blow up a town full of humans and Vampires unless they are a threat.

Not everyone sees the threats coming to them CS is no different. Reality is while the GM knows about it CS might or might not depending on what is at hand. CS is really a small fry compared to the Splugorth or some of the real big powers in Rifts. Heck revolts can happen or A CS state might decide its time to put the Free into Quebec.

Also getting back on the subject of Air defences i am sure the CS has upgraded to a real Air force with there own book full of high tech goodies.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Ah well i am a bit out of Date. I expected such. IHA is gone unless the revolt or some such really up to a GM to decide that or Palladium at some point. Even Juicers were able to hold back the CS so i will wait to see what happens.(See Juicer Uprisings)

CS i am sure have new toys with there Own CS Book.

More than a bit out of date. About 16+ years out of date. The Tolkeen War has already been described and happened and is over (Tolkeen lost - badly).

Also you need to be aware of a threat before just letting loose missiles. I mean just punching the air would look silly if you are not doing it for a reason. Practicing or the like. So Unless the CS is developing new weapons be silly just to fire them off at nothing but trees. No they rather blow up some peaceful D-bee village or the like.

What?

Also you need to have good intel on enemy's location, numbers, civilian population. In RIfts satellites and GPS is not working.

But plain old aircraft are. The CS has aircraft with a service ceiling of 20,000+ feet. Thats more than high enough to do surveillance on the entire continent. In addition, places that im talking about (like the COlorado Baronies, Arzno, MercTown, etc) are all well-known locations that lots of people know about (There's an airline service in Merctown that travels to all of these locations, round trip, so the locations of these places are well-known and navigable to easily).

All it takes is a single company of CS Rangers being dropped in, walking into range, and painting Arzno or one of the Baronies with a targeting laser, and then Lone Star or Chi-Town can take care of the rest. Boom. Gone.

it's one of the many reasons that the setting just doesn't make sense anymore. As presented int he RMB or RUE, sure, this doesn't seem reasonable, but since the World Books have consistently proven the RMB/RUE wrong about just what kind of setting it is....

due to Ley Lines not to mention EM interference and the fact no one knows whats in space except it might be Junk or just they stopped working. So that means CS and other nations must have intel not to mention its 200 years into the future and most of the land is wilderness. Sending in spies ect ect. Not everything has a high tech solution. Also just blowing up city's with vampires would be silly or demons as you will need eyes on the ground to make sure most of them are not around any longer to strike back.

Yes ticking off vampires not to mention others would not be such a hot idea for the CS. Since you would need to use wood or water even Uv rays it would not be a worthwhile effort unless CS feels threatened by a Nation or the Like. Not saying they will not go to war. Or they will not destroy demons vampires or monsters in general when they come across them. But CS is not going to knock over every ant hill.

When did we start talking about Vampires? Even if it were an issue for the CS (it isn't, currently), they have developed weapons against Vampires (there are wooden rounds for the C-40R, for instance) and could field a tech solution to vampires pretty easily (water-shooting tanks would melt entire hordes of vampires). Again, not that this is an issue.

Besides i am sure the CS will run into Splugorth eventually. Then there target meter will rise again. As CS sees themselves surrounded mostly by enemies anyways. It takes more effort to punch in allot of directions instead of one punch one a time for the desired effect. Anyways i digress.

The problem is they aren't surrounded by credible enemies. None of their enemies could stand up to them in a fight - with the possible exception of Free Quebec, and even then, the CS would win in the end due to simple attrition. The FoM as described couldn't even successfuly harm the CS long-term, and the ONLY reason that they could potentially stand up to a CS invasion is due to the Magic Zone being such a hotbed of Ley LIne activity. They certainly dont have the armed forces to fight the CS.

CS would be better off tackling things it can take on its own size or absorbing more into the CS war effort. So destroying a few nations around it one at a time then absorbing them into the whole would be better than shooting missiles at humans who could be willing tools or have tech to help CS in the future.

Why are they going to absorb magic-using communities? CS policy is to kill magic users. Arzno and the Baronies, for instance, are huge TW communities. As much as 65% of the population of the Baronies (unsure about Arzno as i only borrowed that book and dont own it) is magic users. They aren't going to "absorb" them, they're going to KILL them.

If the town was full of monsters i could see them using such brutal force. Besides unless you are going to use fire fighting planes against vampires or have an inventive way to bomb them its just silly to blow up a town full of humans and Vampires unless they are a threat.

Why are we always talking about Vampires? The CS doesn't care about them at this point because they are down in Mexico beyond the Pecos Empire. As far as the CS is concerned, let the Pecos deal with them.

Not everyone sees the threats coming to them CS is no different. Reality is while the GM knows about it CS might or might not depending on what is at hand. CS is really a small fry compared to the Splugorth or some of the real big powers in Rifts. Heck revolts can happen or A CS state might decide its time to put the Free into Quebec.

You really need to catch up. Free Quebec DID leave the CS (in World Book 11 - Coalition War Campaign) - when Prosek announced the Campaign of Unity, Free Quebec Secceeded from the States. There was a brief war that FQ was... holding the CS back, but ONLY because more than 2/3 of their military was ALSO fighting Tolkeen at the SAME TIME.

Let that boil around in your head. The CS invaded FQ, and was only being held back/held in place by FQ's armies (which have a LEGIONS of Glitterboys) because 66% of the CS forces were ALREADY FIGHTING ANOTHER WAR.

I.E., if the CS hadn't ALSO been fighting Tolkeen, they'd have taken FQ in a matter of months.

Also getting back on the subject of Air defences i am sure the CS has upgraded to a real Air force with there own book full of high tech goodies.

Yeah, they did. Bombers, 4 different DHT's, Rocket Cycles, Old Sky Cycles, New Sky Cycles, Super-SAMAS, Striker-SAMAS, dedicated attack fighters. AA tanks, APCs, Main Battle tanks, an entire line of giant robots.

[Commander]

Let me ask you this. Do you know exactly what your neighbor does ? What his Neighbor does ? Ask around you will get different answers and gossip. Then add in Rifts and the fact that there is a really Dense magic zone south of CS Chi-Town down the Mississippi. You act as if there is nothing to prevent or interfere with radar instruments not to mention Dense Forests. Covering most of eastern united states into Canada out to the Great Plains.

Do you know what goes on on the other side of town with out radio ? or news or getting it second hand ? So your claims about aircraft circling around is just foolish far away from CS controlled areas unless CS want's all sorts of baddies to come right in Via old Chicago or other hot spots. Oh yes not to mention the Ley Lines and other things that can interfere with instruments.

Why yes lets shoot missiles that might go into a Rift or might lock onto any number of things without confirming its a threat. Not to mention CS would need a really good reason. You keep insisting CS knows everything about every one but most of it is second or Third hand information about remote spots all over the world or even at times in its borders. Its the Gm making such assumptions. Unless they see it Via camera pictures or the like not to mention collect data about the town area ect. Then you really need to look at how real nations operate these days.

Yes they will destroy nations or Kingdoms who they fear that have magic. CS is well known for that but they will also offer aid or take over if opportunity presents its self to towns or nations that share ideals or who are a threat they can take out of picture then turn the population to there own means. Your assumptions about CS knowing everything as they Don't. think of a nation as a person They can only see so far hear so far and some events or such exist as tales. The real truth is when you have proof that there are such things if it does not affect you its not a concern at the time. So while the CS has good knowledge of some of eastern US and lower part of Canada they have little knowledge of what goes on past the Mississippi.

Not to mention firing missiles at things 300 miles away when they have no idea what is really going on that far away. Not only that but any bully knows you do not tick off a bunch of people as they will come after you. CS is not stupid nor is going to fire missiles to tick people off that will unite nations or whole areas. Military Intelligence exists for a reason that reason is to figure out who is a threat and who is not. Not to mention you left out Rifts monsters not to mention things CS is not going to know about. Even they were told second hand what is going on in NGR let alone the Western United States.

Expeditions get lost read up what happened to people like Louis and Clark in the old day s then add magic and demons. Demons emerge from the Rifts. New threats emerged. CS has problems trying to keep an eye on the Rifts IE magic zone and its borders let alone it just blows up towns with out proof or good reason. With out a Question of a Doubt and the Fact it really does threaten them. Better to let some minor kingdom or such take the D-bee raid or Monster who emerges from the Rifts.

With so much going on not to mention both inside the CS and across the planet you assume CS will just cruse around in Aircraft collecting intelligence yet never need to send in a ground team to investigate. Sorry not the way it works. Look at Vietnam. It had allot of tree cover and allot of hiding places. Unless the CS needs to be there its like the old Feudal days they claim an area but really control Quarter to 1/3 of the total area. So unless its an immediate threat they can see and know exists then they prepare and strike.

I am sure the CS had expanded. Does that mean they know exactly where every outpost nook and cranny unless its CS territory ?. the GM does know but should be careful not to meta game. Its hard for real governments to stay on top of situations let alone Rifts earth where anything can happen at anytime. Apparently you did not factor in allot of things. So unless we are talking Desert or the Like its very unlikely that CS has the bases let alone US Air Force bases that have ballistic launch capacities unless they did some digging around in Pre-Rifts Cities or Areas. Or they went to Norfolk to get the Navy hardware that should be under the sea during the the time of when the first Rifts appeared.

Not only that but America had launch sites mostly on the West Coast. So unless the CS went around building such i find it unlikely they have the kind of capacity old america did before Rifts. So unless you can validate why spies are not necessary or Why aircraft just zoom around at 20,000 ft seemingly able to penetrate tons of trees wilderness or rifts energy emissions, Weather, with just sensors(Not to mention pilots do not receive penalties for spotting or detecting hostiles as Forests have living creatures on a good clear day) and the occasional threat then apparently you are running a different Rifts game with out the Rifts. Intelligence operations coordinate with ground teams often in Rifts. They can just vanish depending on ley lines nexus or the like as it opens.

You might want to check out Robotech as rules for spotting Zentradie or the Like could be used in rifts then Extrapolate from there with monsters or bots. Some one has to check the town out or know whats going on. Simple Flyby will not work in some situations. Case and Point is some evil magic guys might be hiding in caves near at town or such even a Jet will not pick up at 30.000 feet even if it was reported some weird guys were hanging out near some caves.

Also you forgot to factor in the fact CS defences get tested so often even the Air Defences. This is Rifts Earth where Rifts open and close like the ocean tides. Rifts do not open every so often they can be irrelevant to GM's who feel the Rifts just sit there. It is your discretion but not the way described in the books. In the old world things flew Straight and True. Not in Rifts.

[jaymz]

I hate to say this Commander but there is GM caveat in regards to IHA and New Kenora. It is gone. They even explain in CS Navy that the CS is using the Shipyards to build new ships iirc. IHA Brass BARELY got out with their lives but they did take all teh computer data files with them. Problem is they do not have teh resources to start up again. They DID create a new Mercenary force that fights only CS targets IIRC.

[Commander]

Yep i had a book that mentioned that a long time ago about IHA back when it was new. Sadly i had forgotten about it until it was mentioned here. This post was mostly about Air Defences and how good they are. No worries i can get the books again now that i should be getting the Core books today.

Well its good to go back in time and have a reason for PC's to get involved in CS activity's. Cs seemed too greedy at Chi-Town to ignore the fact that mercenary units and others were being outfitted with IHA Combat Vehicles. This just means Larsons brigade or others who purchased Ac-29's back in the day or Sea Kings will have the few produced. This means no replacements for Non-Cs nations or Mercenary bands.

[rat_bastard]

Base RADAR, Robot vehicle RADAR, Large vehicle RADAR, power armor RADAR, eyesight from flying vehicles and armor suits, psychic foresight, magical foretelling, super abilities and innate abilities.

If your attack is small and precise then generally your worry is being spotted by RADAR and patrols, if you have large scale ambitions then you have to worry about their mystics getting a bad feeling putting the local patrols on high alert and if your air assault is world changing then you have to worry about fellowships from across the megaverse forming to stop you.

[azazel1024]

Base RADAR, Robot vehicle RADAR, Large vehicle RADAR, power armor RADAR, eyesight from flying vehicles and armor suits, psychic foresight, magical foretelling, super abilities and innate abilities.

If your attack is small and precise then generally your worry is being spotted by RADAR and patrols, if you have large scale ambitions then you have to worry about their mystics getting a bad feeling putting the local patrols on high alert and if your air assault is world changing then you have to worry about fellowships from across the megaverse forming to stop you.

Pretty much.

A nape of the Earth, single unit or small number of units could probably penetrate the CS pretty easily.

One of the things that doesn't make sense to me in Rifts is the total lack of stealth. With our silly early 21st century tech, stealth isn't THAT hard. I don't mean everything can be made invisible to radar with the snap of your fingers, but it should be easy for any of the manufacturers who are churning out stuff, especially stuff that isn't just regurgitated Golden Age tech (which would probably all have some kind of low observable tech built in).

Yeah, Radar tech probably advanced too, but within reason, if you have no radar return, it doesn't matter how advanced your radar tech is.

Any rate, anything within 500 miles of one of the major CS city is probably just about impossible to penetrate short of stealth planes/robots/PA and/or REAL nape of the Earth flying. Anything without 100 miles probably just can't be penetrated (add in with advanced thermal sensors, visual sensors, LIDAR, that sort of thing blanketing it and covering "blind spots" where you could nape of the Earth it otherwise).

In general CS borders, probably if you are flying low and careful, it shouldn't be a big deal, especially if you know where the radar sites are. Anything flying high is going to get nailed on radar from a 100+ miles out, I am sure.

Good long range radar can spot a target from around 30-60 miles. If you mount the radar mast high up off the ground you could extend that 20-30% further. Add-in that I am sure the CS uses some tethered ballon mounted radar and/or robotic zeplins with radar and/or regular old refitted death's heads and that sort flying high and slow with very long range radar and they probably have the entire border resonably well covered out to around 100 miles.

Low flying, stealth, etc should make it possible to penetrate though.

IF seen, you are in big trouble as I am sure the CS has bases periodically enough to easily bring a large number of LRMs on top of you in quick order. Most have a range of 500 miles, which means it wouldn't even take that many bases to have overlapping coverage of their entire border out to 100 miles. They may have smaller outposts setup often enough to have shorter range MRM coverage of the entire border. Its a lot more bases, but the CS has a big ole army. It wouldn't hurt to have a platoon sized base for patrols to R&R at and launch SAR missions from that was basically a ditch, berm wall, a couple of barracks, mine field, a platoon or two of skelebots, some barracks, armory and kitchens. Maybe some maintance sheds. A small airpad for PA, robots and helicopters (probably big enough for a deaths head transport or a few smaller vehicles), maybe a couple of morters or light artillery pieces and probably a battery or two of MRMs and a radar dish.

Ground patrols can stop overnight, you have ready back-up for any patrol that gets in trouble, you can rotate out patrols at the outposts easily and it provides both long range support fire for any patrol and anti-air coverage of the border.

1 such outpost every 25 miles along the border probably puts it up around 200 outposts total. That isn't a lot of resources for the coalition. Roughly 4-5 regiments of soldiers total. For an Army that has something like 2-3 million soliders total, shaving off 5-10,000 for border outpots and maybe as many again for periodic larger bases with LRMs (company or occasionally battalion sized bases in hotter spots along the border every 100-200 miles and with some robot vehicles, maybe some helicopters or a couple of jets for the larger bases)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Let me ask you this. Do you know exactly what your neighbor does ? What his Neighbor does ? Ask around you will get different answers and gossip. Then add in Rifts and the fact that there is a really Dense magic zone south of CS Chi-Town down the Mississippi. You act as if there is nothing to prevent or interfere with radar instruments not to mention Dense Forests. Covering most of eastern united states into Canada out to the Great Plains.

Actually, the CS Navy heavily patrols the entire Mississippi, and has a major base near the mouth of the Mississippi. They have very accurate intelligence about what goes on there, and even a few days into the Magic Zone (where they send patrols daily - WB 16, FoM).

Do you know what goes on on the other side of town with out radio ? or news or getting it second hand ? So your claims about aircraft circling around is just foolish far away from CS controlled areas unless CS want's all sorts of baddies to come right in Via old Chicago or other hot spots. Oh yes not to mention the Ley Lines and other things that can interfere with instruments.

The CS has extremely active intelligence operations. They have a huge spy ring in Merctown, and Merctown has regular passsenger airline flights to places like Arzno, Lazlo, NG, Wellington's home town, a few of the Colorado Baronies, etc. The CS has agents in the Baronies, on the ground (which are, after all, just a few hundred miles from the borders of Chi-Town). The CS even has a ring of agents and spies down in the freaking DINO SWAMP! They are, quite literally, everywhere.

Why yes lets shoot missiles that might go into a Rift or might lock onto any number of things without confirming its a threat.

A place like Arzno is a major manufacturer of Technowizardry items (same withe Baronies). Ergo - Threat.

Not to mention CS would need a really good reason.

How about.. "we're an expansionist, evil, anit-magic nation with a giant army". That's all the reason they needed to go after Tolkeen.

You keep insisting CS knows everything about every one but most of it is second or Third hand information about remote spots all over the world or even at times in its borders.

Because they DO have good intel on all these places; the books say they do. They have first-hand-contact (and even soldiers on the ground helping out) in Europe with the NGR. They have first-hand contact (and an embassy) and communication with nations in South America (and therefore, access to all of the intel on that region that those nations have); they have a network of agents at Merctown, NGR, Northern Gun, Old Bones, and in FQ. They are allies and share info with FQ, the NGR, and Northern Gun. They have a network of agents in the freaking Dinosaur Swamp.

Its the Gm making such assumptions.

Actually, no, im going by what the books say they know, or, in the most rare cases, reasonably inferring that they know something that is well known to the population of a town that they have a network of agents in (like, the location and nature of Arzno - which is common knowledge in Merctown, as Merctown is a major market for Arzno's TW wares).

Unless they see it Via camera pictures or the like not to mention collect data about the town area ect. Then you really need to look at how real nations operate these days.

Yes they will destroy nations or Kingdoms who they fear that have magic.

Right, like... Arzno, The Colorado Baronies, New Lazlo, and Kingsdale, just to name a few. All but one of which is within 200 miles or so of claimed CS territory. (Arzno being the major exception, all the way down in Arizona)

CS is well known for that but they will also offer aid or take over if opportunity presents its self to towns or nations that share ideals or who are a threat they can take out of picture then turn the population to there own means. Your assumptions about CS knowing everything as they Don't. think of a nation as a person They can only see so far hear so far and some events or such exist as tales. The real truth is when you have proof that there are such things if it does not affect you its not a concern at the time. So while the CS has good knowledge of some of eastern US and lower part of Canada they have little knowledge of what goes on past the Mississippi.

The CS has at least two major military bases "past the Mississippi", including a major naval base on the eastern coast of the continent (near the mouth of the St. Lawrence Seaway). They have a network of agents and informants in place in the south-eastern US, as well, in the "Dino Swamp"; the only part of the area that they dont have at least decent information on is the 'Shemarrian Nation' (where they have no bases and cannot subborn locals to provide them with info) and some of the east coast places like Madhaven.

Not to mention firing missiles at things 300 miles away when they have no idea what is really going on that far away.

Except they do have a good idea what is going on there. Flights come into Merctown *daily* from those places. Information isn't hard to come by.

Not only that but any bully knows you do not tick off a bunch of people as they will come after you.

So what if they do? All of those places combined couldn't muster a threat to the CS in their wildest fantasies. The CS has between 2.5-3.5 million soldiers under arms, and that is just humans - that same number again in Dog Boys and Skelebots. They could wipe out all of those places in a single afternoon of close action.

CS is not stupid nor is going to fire missiles to tick people off that will unite nations or whole areas. Military Intelligence exists for a reason that reason is to figure out who is a threat and who is not. Not to mention you left out Rifts monsters not to mention things CS is not going to know about. Even they were told second hand what is going on in NGR let alone the Western United States.

Except they have first-hand knowledge of what is going on in Europe. theyve had an embassy there (with field agents and a small contingent of troops) for almost a decade and during the NGR's recent campaign, landed 20,000 troops in support of the NGR offensive; those troops are still there, on the ground.

Information from the "Western US" (except for the West Coast which hasn't been detailed AT ALL by a canon source) is easy to come by - daily commuter flights come in from most of the larger civilized areas out that way to Merctown, which is inundated with CS agents, and, quite honestly, isn't trying to keep any of that info secret anyway

Expeditions get lost read up what happened to people like Louis and Clark in the old day s then add magic and demons. Demons emerge from the Rifts. New threats emerged. CS has problems trying to keep an eye on the Rifts IE magic zone and its borders

They have an entire force devoted to that, actually, with daily patrols into the Magic Zone. As far as it can be, that area is wellc ontained and that border is well fortified (FoM Worldbook)

let alone it just blows up towns with out proof or good reason.

Proof = they manufacture TW stuff and practice magic.
Good reason = see above.

To the CS a "good reason" to destroy a town or village is that it harbors dangerous D-bees or Magic users. Or sometimes, just because they dont like the cut of your jib. If you aren't a CS citizen, they dont need a reason to kill you.

With out a Question of a Doubt and the Fact it really does threaten them. Better to let some minor kingdom or such take the D-bee raid or Monster who emerges from the Rifts.

The CS is pretty unconcerned with things coming out of Rifts, as a whole. They have forces stationed to contain the few active Rifts of which they are aware, and forces aplenty in garrison to defend their towns and cities. Remember, MILLIONS of men under arms, with millions more Dog Boys and Skelebots, and that doesn't even count the ISS Peacekeepers, who are still formidable in their own right, with "Old Style" Dead Boy Armor, access to the modern weapons (CP-40/50), and use of the huge stockpile of UAR-1 and "Death's Head" SAMAS.

With so much going on not to mention both inside the CS and across the planet you assume CS will just cruse around in Aircraft collecting intelligence yet never need to send in a ground team to investigate.

I dont assume, they do it. They regularly scout FAR beyond their claimed borders, and patrol far beyond their borders. That much is FACT, presented in the books. The books even give compositions for such forces. It's not like it would be hard for them to do so. A few DHT's converted to surveillance or just some robotic drones would do the job with no real danger.

Actually, if you go back and read, i mentioned several times that the next step is to send in a company sized force of CS Rangers (think Wilderness Scouts crossed with Special Forces) on the ground to reconoiter and paint high value targets.

Sorry not the way it works. Look at Vietnam. It had allot of tree cover and allot of hiding places. Unless the CS needs to be there its like the old Feudal days they claim an area but really control Quarter to 1/3 of the total area. So unless its an immediate threat they can see and know exists then they prepare and strike.

I am sure the CS had expanded. Does that mean they know exactly where every outpost nook and cranny unless its CS territory ?. the GM does know but should be careful not to meta game. Its hard for real governments to stay on top of situations let alone Rifts earth where anything can happen at anytime. Apparently you did not factor in allot of things. So unless we are talking Desert or the Like its very unlikely that CS has the bases let alone US Air Force bases that have ballistic launch capacities unless they did some digging around in Pre-Rifts Cities or Areas.

Im not metagaming, im just stating what is in the books with a few (extremely reasonable) extrapolations (like exploiting information freely available at Merctown).

Or they went to Norfolk to get the Navy hardware that should be under the sea during the the time of when the first Rifts appeared.

Actually... they did. Great minds think alike, i guess. They unearthed several pre-Rifts modern aircraft carriers and the like.

Not only that but America had launch sites mostly on the West Coast. So unless the CS went around building such i find it unlikely they have the kind of capacity old america did before Rifts.

Im not sure what pre-Rifts ICBM sites have to do with LRM launch capability of the CS - at all. (And, for the record, all but 4 of our ICBM sites are in just three states in the "west" - but nowhere near the west coast - think Great Plains). LRM launch capability has nothing to do with pre-rifts launch capability. If you DONT think they have millions of LRMs available, i'm not sure we're even talking about the same game.

So unless you can validate why spies are not necessary or Why aircraft just zoom around at 20,000 ft seemingly able to penetrate tons of trees wilderness or rifts energy emissions, Weather, with just sensors(Not to mention pilots do not receive penalties for spotting or detecting hostiles as Forests have living creatures on a good clear day) and the occasional threat then apparently you are running a different Rifts game with out the Rifts. Intelligence operations coordinate with ground teams often in Rifts. They can just vanish depending on ley lines nexus or the like as it opens.

No, im running a game where most of the major ley line active areas are already mapped out and avoided... you know, the one provided for in the books. The one where Rift and Ley Line activity are such a non-issue that commercial airline flights are possible on a daily basis (and safe enough that people will actually use the service without fear of dying). And i never said not to send in ground troops - the CS even has troops just for that kind of activity - CS Rangers! Beyond that - no major town or nation exists "under the trees". A flyover will reveal most towns of any reasonable size (any size worth noting, at least) simply because of their energy emissions and the fact that they will have cleared the area the town is in. Arzno is on top of the Grand Canyon, plainly visible to the naked eye. The Colorado Baronies are by and large just sitting out in the open. And that's assuming that the CS doesn't already know exactly where these places are - they do. The information is freely available in-setting. Any mook with Computer Operations can get to it.

Also you forgot to factor in the fact CS defences get tested so often even the Air Defences. This is Rifts Earth where Rifts open and close like the ocean tides.

Nothing in the printed material supports that. In a few very ley-line active areas, yes. Elsewhere... not really.

Rifts do not open every so often they can be irrelevant to GM's who feel the Rifts just sit there. It is your discretion but not the way described in the books.

Actually, in most areas of North America that aren't heavily ley-line active (like the Magic Zone), Rifts opening is pretty rare. The areas where that activity is common have long since been mapped out and are avoided by technologically advanced societies. That's what is described in the books.

In the old world things flew Straight and True. Not in Rifts.

Well, they fly straight and true enough that airlines can still operate reliably. So, yeah.

I think the biggest disconnect is coming because you're pretty far behind on the meta-story in the books; the setting as described int he Rifts Main Book, where there are hundreds of miles between civilized places and most of North America is some vast wilderness with days or weeks travel between civilized places, is just plain bunk. It's been proven by World Book after World Book that you can barely go a single days travel, (actually not even that in a lot of cases) without bumping into another civilzed nation or place. There is an EXCELLENT map posted in a sticky thread up top here in the forums of Rifts North America - download it and take a look at it - almost the entire continent is COVERED with civilizations.

Rifts was, VERY briefly, a post-apocalyptic setting where civilization was far apart and barely holding on and most of the country was a menacing wilderness - that lasted until the World Books started to come out and populate the map with nation after nation. It isn't true anymore. Rifts Earth, at least in North America is no longer post-apocalypic.. its post-post apocalypse.

[Commander]

Let me ask you this. Do you know exactly what your neighbor does ? What his Neighbor does ? Ask around you will get different answers and gossip. Then add in Rifts and the fact that there is a really Dense magic zone south of CS Chi-Town down the Mississippi. You act as if there is nothing to prevent or interfere with radar instruments not to mention Dense Forests. Covering most of eastern united states into Canada out to the Great Plains.

Actually, the CS Navy heavily patrols the entire Mississippi, and has a major base near the mouth of the Mississippi. They have very accurate intelligence about what goes on there, and even a few days into the Magic Zone (where they send patrols daily - WB 16, FoM).

Do you know what goes on on the other side of town with out radio ? or news or getting it second hand ? So your claims about aircraft circling around is just foolish far away from CS controlled areas unless CS want's all sorts of baddies to come right in Via old Chicago or other hot spots. Oh yes not to mention the Ley Lines and other things that can interfere with instruments.

The CS has extremely active intelligence operations. They have a huge spy ring in Merctown, and Merctown has regular passsenger airline flights to places like Arzno, Lazlo, NG, Wellington's home town, a few of the Colorado Baronies, etc. The CS has agents in the Baronies, on the ground (which are, after all, just a few hundred miles from the borders of Chi-Town). The CS even has a ring of agents and spies down in the freaking DINO SWAMP! They are, quite literally, everywhere.

Why yes lets shoot missiles that might go into a Rift or might lock onto any number of things without confirming its a threat.

A place like Arzno is a major manufacturer of Technowizardry items (same withe Baronies). Ergo - Threat.

Not to mention CS would need a really good reason.

How about.. "we're an expansionist, evil, anit-magic nation with a giant army". That's all the reason they needed to go after Tolkeen.

You keep insisting CS knows everything about every one but most of it is second or Third hand information about remote spots all over the world or even at times in its borders.

Because they DO have good intel on all these places; the books say they do. They have first-hand-contact (and even soldiers on the ground helping out) in Europe with the NGR. They have first-hand contact (and an embassy) and communication with nations in South America (and therefore, access to all of the intel on that region that those nations have); they have a network of agents at Merctown, NGR, Northern Gun, Old Bones, and in FQ. They are allies and share info with FQ, the NGR, and Northern Gun. They have a network of agents in the freaking Dinosaur Swamp.

Its the Gm making such assumptions.

Actually, no, im going by what the books say they know, or, in the most rare cases, reasonably inferring that they know something that is well known to the population of a town that they have a network of agents in (like, the location and nature of Arzno - which is common knowledge in Merctown, as Merctown is a major market for Arzno's TW wares).

Unless they see it Via camera pictures or the like not to mention collect data about the town area ect. Then you really need to look at how real nations operate these days.

Yes they will destroy nations or Kingdoms who they fear that have magic.

Right, like... Arzno, The Colorado Baronies, New Lazlo, and Kingsdale, just to name a few. All but one of which is within 200 miles or so of claimed CS territory. (Arzno being the major exception, all the way down in Arizona)

CS is well known for that but they will also offer aid or take over if opportunity presents its self to towns or nations that share ideals or who are a threat they can take out of picture then turn the population to there own means. Your assumptions about CS knowing everything as they Don't. think of a nation as a person They can only see so far hear so far and some events or such exist as tales. The real truth is when you have proof that there are such things if it does not affect you its not a concern at the time. So while the CS has good knowledge of some of eastern US and lower part of Canada they have little knowledge of what goes on past the Mississippi.

The CS has at least two major military bases "past the Mississippi", including a major naval base on the eastern coast of the continent (near the mouth of the St. Lawrence Seaway). They have a network of agents and informants in place in the south-eastern US, as well, in the "Dino Swamp"; the only part of the area that they dont have at least decent information on is the 'Shemarrian Nation' (where they have no bases and cannot subborn locals to provide them with info) and some of the east coast places like Madhaven.

Not to mention firing missiles at things 300 miles away when they have no idea what is really going on that far away.

Except they do have a good idea what is going on there. Flights come into Merctown *daily* from those places. Information isn't hard to come by.

Not only that but any bully knows you do not tick off a bunch of people as they will come after you.

So what if they do? All of those places combined couldn't muster a threat to the CS in their wildest fantasies. The CS has between 2.5-3.5 million soldiers under arms, and that is just humans - that same number again in Dog Boys and Skelebots. They could wipe out all of those places in a single afternoon of close action.

CS is not stupid nor is going to fire missiles to tick people off that will unite nations or whole areas. Military Intelligence exists for a reason that reason is to figure out who is a threat and who is not. Not to mention you left out Rifts monsters not to mention things CS is not going to know about. Even they were told second hand what is going on in NGR let alone the Western United States.

Except they have first-hand knowledge of what is going on in Europe. theyve had an embassy there (with field agents and a small contingent of troops) for almost a decade and during the NGR's recent campaign, landed 20,000 troops in support of the NGR offensive; those troops are still there, on the ground.

Information from the "Western US" (except for the West Coast which hasn't been detailed AT ALL by a canon source) is easy to come by - daily commuter flights come in from most of the larger civilized areas out that way to Merctown, which is inundated with CS agents, and, quite honestly, isn't trying to keep any of that info secret anyway

Expeditions get lost read up what happened to people like Louis and Clark in the old day s then add magic and demons. Demons emerge from the Rifts. New threats emerged. CS has problems trying to keep an eye on the Rifts IE magic zone and its borders

They have an entire force devoted to that, actually, with daily patrols into the Magic Zone. As far as it can be, that area is wellc ontained and that border is well fortified (FoM Worldbook)

let alone it just blows up towns with out proof or good reason.

Proof = they manufacture TW stuff and practice magic.
Good reason = see above.

To the CS a "good reason" to destroy a town or village is that it harbors dangerous D-bees or Magic users. Or sometimes, just because they dont like the cut of your jib. If you aren't a CS citizen, they dont need a reason to kill you.

With out a Question of a Doubt and the Fact it really does threaten them. Better to let some minor kingdom or such take the D-bee raid or Monster who emerges from the Rifts.

The CS is pretty unconcerned with things coming out of Rifts, as a whole. They have forces stationed to contain the few active Rifts of which they are aware, and forces aplenty in garrison to defend their towns and cities. Remember, MILLIONS of men under arms, with millions more Dog Boys and Skelebots, and that doesn't even count the ISS Peacekeepers, who are still formidable in their own right, with "Old Style" Dead Boy Armor, access to the modern weapons (CP-40/50), and use of the huge stockpile of UAR-1 and "Death's Head" SAMAS.

With so much going on not to mention both inside the CS and across the planet you assume CS will just cruse around in Aircraft collecting intelligence yet never need to send in a ground team to investigate.

I dont assume, they do it. They regularly scout FAR beyond their claimed borders, and patrol far beyond their borders. That much is FACT, presented in the books. The books even give compositions for such forces. It's not like it would be hard for them to do so. A few DHT's converted to surveillance or just some robotic drones would do the job with no real danger.

Actually, if you go back and read, i mentioned several times that the next step is to send in a company sized force of CS Rangers (think Wilderness Scouts crossed with Special Forces) on the ground to reconoiter and paint high value targets.

Sorry not the way it works. Look at Vietnam. It had allot of tree cover and allot of hiding places. Unless the CS needs to be there its like the old Feudal days they claim an area but really control Quarter to 1/3 of the total area. So unless its an immediate threat they can see and know exists then they prepare and strike.

I am sure the CS had expanded. Does that mean they know exactly where every outpost nook and cranny unless its CS territory ?. the GM does know but should be careful not to meta game. Its hard for real governments to stay on top of situations let alone Rifts earth where anything can happen at anytime. Apparently you did not factor in allot of things. So unless we are talking Desert or the Like its very unlikely that CS has the bases let alone US Air Force bases that have ballistic launch capacities unless they did some digging around in Pre-Rifts Cities or Areas.

Im not metagaming, im just stating what is in the books with a few (extremely reasonable) extrapolations (like exploiting information freely available at Merctown).

Or they went to Norfolk to get the Navy hardware that should be under the sea during the the time of when the first Rifts appeared.

Actually... they did. Great minds think alike, i guess. They unearthed several pre-Rifts modern aircraft carriers and the like.

Not only that but America had launch sites mostly on the West Coast. So unless the CS went around building such i find it unlikely they have the kind of capacity old america did before Rifts.

Im not sure what pre-Rifts ICBM sites have to do with LRM launch capability of the CS - at all. (And, for the record, all but 4 of our ICBM sites are in just three states in the "west" - but nowhere near the west coast - think Great Plains). LRM launch capability has nothing to do with pre-rifts launch capability. If you DONT think they have millions of LRMs available, i'm not sure we're even talking about the same game.

So unless you can validate why spies are not necessary or Why aircraft just zoom around at 20,000 ft seemingly able to penetrate tons of trees wilderness or rifts energy emissions, Weather, with just sensors(Not to mention pilots do not receive penalties for spotting or detecting hostiles as Forests have living creatures on a good clear day) and the occasional threat then apparently you are running a different Rifts game with out the Rifts. Intelligence operations coordinate with ground teams often in Rifts. They can just vanish depending on ley lines nexus or the like as it opens.

No, im running a game where most of the major ley line active areas are already mapped out and avoided... you know, the one provided for in the books. The one where Rift and Ley Line activity are such a non-issue that commercial airline flights are possible on a daily basis (and safe enough that people will actually use the service without fear of dying). And i never said not to send in ground troops - the CS even has troops just for that kind of activity - CS Rangers! Beyond that - no major town or nation exists "under the trees". A flyover will reveal most towns of any reasonable size (any size worth noting, at least) simply because of their energy emissions and the fact that they will have cleared the area the town is in. Arzno is on top of the Grand Canyon, plainly visible to the naked eye. The Colorado Baronies are by and large just sitting out in the open. And that's assuming that the CS doesn't already know exactly where these places are - they do. The information is freely available in-setting. Any mook with Computer Operations can get to it.

Also you forgot to factor in the fact CS defences get tested so often even the Air Defences. This is Rifts Earth where Rifts open and close like the ocean tides.

Nothing in the printed material supports that. In a few very ley-line active areas, yes. Elsewhere... not really.

Rifts do not open every so often they can be irrelevant to GM's who feel the Rifts just sit there. It is your discretion but not the way described in the books.

Actually, in most areas of North America that aren't heavily ley-line active (like the Magic Zone), Rifts opening is pretty rare. The areas where that activity is common have long since been mapped out and are avoided by technologically advanced societies. That's what is described in the books.

In the old world things flew Straight and True. Not in Rifts.

Well, they fly straight and true enough that airlines can still operate reliably. So, yeah.

I think the biggest disconnect is coming because you're pretty far behind on the meta-story in the books; the setting as described int he Rifts Main Book, where there are hundreds of miles between civilized places and most of North America is some vast wilderness with days or weeks travel between civilized places, is just plain bunk. It's been proven by World Book after World Book that you can barely go a single days travel, (actually not even that in a lot of cases) without bumping into another civilzed nation or place. There is an EXCELLENT map posted in a sticky thread up top here in the forums of Rifts North America - download it and take a look at it - almost the entire continent is COVERED with civilizations.

Rifts was, VERY briefly, a post-apocalyptic setting where civilization was far apart and barely holding on and most of the country was a menacing wilderness - that lasted until the World Books started to come out and populate the map with nation after nation. It isn't true anymore. Rifts Earth, at least in North America is no longer post-apocalypic.. its post-post apocalypse.

That is all nice but its still up to individual Gm's. My point is yes its in the books as i got the three new core books. Yes CS is expanding but in actual terms you are meta gaming. No way that CS knows everything. You assume they do. Civilization has expanded.

You act as if the CS is regular old Pre Rifts america worst you ignored the Rifts and threats surrounding the heart of the CS. Tell me how many nexus and ley lines that surround the CS. Not to mention Archie-3 ect ect. So Unless the Conversation gets back to CS air defences you will GM your way that has CS knowing when some enemy wipes his butt. But some how they see that all the way into Northern Gun and Across the World. Pilots would not receive penalties when using IR,Radar and Thermal when they should since forests are alive. You left out magic as well.

CS has no said missile's since you keep insisting they know about some remote town across the world. Just because the CS can destroy things they need to be aware. GM's who auto say hey they know everything they need to know by flying around then shooting missiles with out actually really knowing what goes on.

You still did not answer my question. I doubt you know what goes on in some ones house on the other side of the state. Your Neighbor yes. Do you know his every activity ? If you did i would be worried. CS yes they keep an eye on people. Intelligence network including spy's bots drones ect. But the way you put it CS is every place and that is really not true.

You justifications do not meet what normal nations do nor people know. The books describe that also. You perceive these things as threats. And you justify it with someone operating an airline. Yep CS clearly knows that Atlantis would beat them down in a war too.

ICBM's would need to be copied for the range you speak of as well as cruise missiles. Anyways since this has gotten off track i will say that planes flying around at 20,000 ft who are trying to detect ground targets will be using sensors. Unless the CS spots them they can get real close by flying tree top level. Heck if they were inventive with magic or tech even closer.

Commandos could sneak in with power armor through the trees. Hit the CS and be gone before they knew what happened. it would take the CS time to fix it. Gaps in the defences or some one even more inventive using forged Documents to slip in with official looking documents not to mention CS insignias could get really close with a unit who with magic or tech do lots of damage to the base and Radar station.

Heck the Forger OOC would be perfect for such a commando unit. CS would be confused for a bit. Response units would take time. Heck a few of these would open gaps. Best way to take down a large beast is Mosquito bites. Sure there will be a response at some point but the fact is a well prepared mercenary unit or army should be able to defeat the company CS sends out.

Then comes in the Air Strikes after they hit the CS yet again with stolen CS equipment and codes. Some Black Paint and CS logos will allow that. So then begins the hunt. So retreating into some prepared landmines even some magic to obscure the area as CS walks into yet another trap. So they will send in Skelbots even SAMAs or other bots finding that they will be surrounded.

Repeat till the CS gets so angry they send an entire Division. Next step is to back off hide for a bit. With gaps in the Defences should be not too hard for some one to sneak past with units as CS does an internal investigation. Just like a magic trick Diversion fallowed by the real team who marks target as the infiltration unit with proper papers. So when things calm down BOOM!.

Making more gaps as an enemy Attack hits with Air Defence network down. Techs would be over worked as they would be repairing such. They are more important than the soldiers defending the base. It would be months before CS investigators figured out what happened.

In the mean time some one inventive could lead monsters demons or other CS enemies aware that three of there bases are down that a gap is exploitable. CS response would likely be a large number of troops then the Unit or Some one else repeats. This time hitting further down.

Soon the Air Defences will be really weakened people would be out for blood and CS would be combing the hills as they make repairs. So that is when a surprise air attack happens with other ground units to take it to the CS units guarding the techs. Puts the CS on the Defensive till they get reinforcements.

Figure one or the other will perish. Could be the Infiltration might remain secret even if there forces are destroyed. CS would be confused even figure out most of it. Still allot of options. Who says there will be more than one infiltration team ?

Also i realize the CS has air units but is that not a CS Battalion coming over the Ridge ? Till its too later. I am sure they will be looking for the Units and others who are responsible for attacking them. They might even update procedures so that any CS unit that does not have the proper codes will be fired on.

Sure the CS will send out Aircraft for Recon and Surveillance. Even attack when the said unit appears. But i figure with Gaps in there defences CS might loose a few birds if they venture too far out. Sky Cycles and SAMAS patrols would be beefed up. Still the enemy would not be in the Sky or on the ground heck he would be one of them waiting to hit them at the right time. Never knowing till it was too late. Since the Infiltration team would consist of non magical beings. It is likely they could pass themselves off as CS soldiers or PSI Stalkers even Dog Boys.

So years might go by then boom CS Air Defence network goes down as the infiltration team sneak in more operatives into "Cell's" Hitting CS centers in covert attacks as they would never suspect there own. Even civilian targets like the rich and powerful. So when the CS defence network goes down NG or some one else would ride into the CS state hitting them with a Surprise attack.

That CS state would be at war giving whom ever a chance. Other defences sabotage as well. CS is just as vulnerable as any one else. CS counter intel and there intelligence apparatus would be working hard but by that time its too late. Cutting Communications and other sensor data. Or data can be found to have certain officers arrested then replaced with less competent officers or Dupes. Still CS would be vulnerable. CS can be corrupted by bribes or other means.

So in effect if some one went through all that effort CS Chi-Town or Iron Heart even Lone Star would be Vulnerable. Lone Star being the weakest. Would be the most susceptible to such.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

That is all nice but its still up to individual Gm's. My point is yes its in the books as i got the three new core books. Yes CS is expanding but in actual terms you are meta gaming. No way that CS knows everything. You assume they do.

I'm not assuming anything. The stuff i've told you the Coalition knows... is printed right in the books. The CS DOES KNOW THESE THINGS. That's not a supposition or open to debate - it's printed in canon material.

Civilization has expanded.

I think you're rather missing the point - Civilization didn't expand, it was ret-conned. Most of these places have existed for 50+ years according the material. I.E. they were always there

You act as if the CS is regular old Pre Rifts america worst you ignored the Rifts and threats surrounding the heart of the CS.

What threats are those, exactly? The Federation of Magic? Considering how badly the CS blitzed Tolkeen, the FoM isn't a viable threat of any kind.

Tell me how many nexus and ley lines that surround the CS.

This is relevant... why? The CS has containment forces at every nexus in their territory. There's even an entire division of guys who study and contain Rifts (the RCSG).

Not to mention Archie-3 ect ect.

.. What about him? He's not exactly prepared for all-out war with the CS. He couldn't if he tried. He's got his own problems, what with the Republicans trying to take him out and using his own factories against him to produce their own power armor and robots and gear.

So Unless the Conversation gets back to CS air defences

CS Air Defenses: effectively impenetrable. An effectively infinite amount of countermissiles available, complete radar and patrol coverage of their claimed borders. Frequent (often daily) patrols hundreds of miles outside their own borders. Dozens of bases with overlapping coverage.

you will GM your way that has CS knowing when some enemy wipes his butt.

Your attempt at hyperbole is laughable. I never said anything about anything remotely like this. What i did say is that the CS has good intelligence on places like the Colorado Baronies, Arzno, and Kingsdale; it wouldnt even be hard to get that information. Here's how hard it is: Coalition agent walks into the airliner service at Merctown, dressed in civilian clothes. He flies out to Arzno. He scouts out the town, and he flies back. Maybe buys some stuff while he's there. He flies back. Then he flies to the Baronies. Buys a trinket for his girlfriend. Flies back. Intelligence gathered. There's no one preventing him from doing it. The CS has operatives in Merctown. They know all about these other places, just like everyone else who goes there. You can hardly have an airline flight to a place on a regular basis and then claim that it is somehow a secret that no one knows about.

But some how they see that all the way into Northern Gun and Across the World. Pilots would not receive penalties when using IR,Radar and Thermal when they should since forests are alive. You left out magic as well.

I didn't leave out magic. There's no magic that prevents a guy with a good old fashioned Mark 1 Eyeball from looking down and seeing your city of 20,000 people sitting there in the open.

CS has no said missile's

So.. now your argument is that the Coalition States doesn't have Long Range Missiles?! Considering the number of their vehicles that are armed with them.... i find that a little hard to swallow. The Coalition DOES demonstrably have LRM's.. and lots of them.

since you keep insisting they know about some remote town across the world. Just because the CS can destroy things they need to be aware. GM's who auto say hey they know everything they need to know by flying around then shooting missiles with out actually really knowing what goes on.

No, i said that they know about this place that is a few hundred miles away (not "across the world") that is a heavy producer of TW goods because a lot of people know about it, including the CS. And yeah, if they'd ever sent any scout planes that way, they'd see it. It's perched on the side of the Grand Canyon, plain as day, a city of 40,000+ people. Hard to hide it.

You still did not answer my question. I doubt you know what goes on in some ones house on the other side of the state. Your Neighbor yes. Do you know his every activity ? If you did i would be worried. CS yes they keep an eye on people. Intelligence network including spy's bots drones ect. But the way you put it CS is every place and that is really not true.

Not that it matters if i know what my neighbor is up to, because it has nothing to do with this discussion - but yeah, the CS keeps an eye on people. They have agents everywhere. That's not open to discussion, it's a printed fact in canon sources. They even have agents in the freaking Dinosaur Swamp, a place so backwards that the natives use MDC steel trees as weapons and hunt dinosaurs with spears... and yet The Coalition still has agents here. Now imagine a place that is actually dangerous, a hotbed of magic use and TW item production... you know, a REAL threat. Yes, the CS knows about them. Is it important to know what is going on minute-to-minute in Arzno? No, and i never claimed they did. I said they knew where it was located, knew its defenses, and knew it was a town of magic users and d-bees. That's all fact.

You justifications do not meet what normal nations do nor people know. The books describe that also. You perceive these things as threats. And you justify it with someone operating an airline.

The CS is hardly a "normal nation" - theyre a zenophobic, facist, expansionist, genocidal dictatorship.

You throw away the "someone operating an airline" even though it debunks every "BUT DA RIFTS MAKE TRAVEL AND INFORMATION IMPOSSIBLES!" argument you've made. I cant stress this enough: if the airline is a viable thing, that is safe enough that people actually use it, that means that Rifts and Ley Lines are NOT this mystical omnipresent "makes everything nearby invisible to sensors and eyeballs" force that you're trying to claim. They are such a non-issue that people can make a passenger airline a safe and regular occurence.

Yep CS clearly knows that Atlantis would beat them down in a war too.

Actually, if you read Triax 2, yes, the CS is well aware that Atlantis is extremely dangerous and can wipe them out - they go to several extremes, when transporting troops to Europe, to avoid antagonizing Atlantis in any way. They have been given intelligence about Atlantis by a rebel/freedom fighter who frees slaves from Atlantis, who is also the person that gave them the routes to fly so they wouldn't be seen by Atlantis. Again, it's in a canon book. The CS DOES know how dangerous Atlantis is.

ICBM's would need to be copied for the range you speak of as well as cruise missiles.

No, they wouldn't. RMB, Page 46' R:UE, Page 363 - missile charts. Long Range missiles - Proton Torpedo (1200 mile range), Nuclear Med (1000 mile range), Nuclear Heavy (1000 mile range), and Nuclear Multi-Warhead (1800 mile range). Those are off-the-shelf Long Range Missiles available to just about every high tech power in Rifts Earth.

And not that i matters.. since the Coalition States DO have Cruise Missiles, as well (CS Navy Book).

Anyways since this has gotten off track i will say that planes flying around at 20,000 ft who are trying to detect ground targets will be using sensors. Unless the CS spots them they can get real close by flying tree top level. Heck if they were inventive with magic or tech even closer.

Commandos could sneak in with power armor through the trees.

Microwave Fencing, Radar Detectors, and a Ground Sensor system (most can be found in RUE or Merc Ops, total cost less than 50,000cr) make sneaking up on foot in anything other than body armor nearly impossible.

Hit the CS and be gone before they knew what happened. it would take the CS time to fix it. Gaps in the defences or some one even more inventive using forged Documents to slip in with official looking documents not to mention CS insignias could get really close with a unit who with magic or tech do lots of damage to the base and Radar station.

Heck the Forger OOC would be perfect for such a commando unit. CS would be confused for a bit. Response units would take time. Heck a few of these would open gaps. Best way to take down a large beast is Mosquito bites. Sure there will be a response at some point but the fact is a well prepared mercenary unit or army should be able to defeat the company CS sends out.

No one other than other Big States have any of these capabilities. And even if you could somehow punch a small hole in the CS defense perimiter, theyll just send in troops to re-secure the area, and those troops will bring their own radar installations, in a lot of cases mounted on their vehicles and forward bases. If it gets bad enough, theyll just send in a Firestorm Fortress, which has all of the sensors needed to plug a very big gap indeed... and comes standard with a Field Army sized force.

Then comes in the Air Strikes after they hit the CS yet again with stolen CS equipment and codes. Some Black Paint and CS logos will allow that. So then begins the hunt. So retreating into some prepared landmines even some magic to obscure the area as CS walks into yet another trap. So they will send in Skelbots even SAMAs or other bots finding that they will be surrounded.

Surround all the Skelebots you want. They have millions of them.

Also... you cant just spray your armor black and pretend to be CS. Especially since they Dont wear all-black armor anymore and have a very distinctive new style of armor that even the Black Market wont copy for fear of pissing them off. On top of that, even if your armor somehow passed.. youll immediately fail the IFF check. Forged documents are only so useful when most of the soldiers you might encounter aren't literate.

Repeat till the CS gets so angry they send an entire Division. Next step is to back off hide for a bit. With gaps in the Defences should be not too hard for some one to sneak past with units as CS does an internal investigation. Just like a magic trick Diversion fallowed by the real team who marks target as the infiltration unit with proper papers. So when things calm down BOOM!.

Making more gaps as an enemy Attack hits with Air Defence network down. Techs would be over worked as they would be repairing such. They are more important than the soldiers defending the base. It would be months before CS investigators figured out what happened.

In the mean time some one inventive could lead monsters demons or other CS enemies aware that three of there bases are down that a gap is exploitable. CS response would likely be a large number of troops then the Unit or Some one else repeats. This time hitting further down.

Soon the Air Defences will be really weakened people would be out for blood and CS would be combing the hills as they make repairs. So that is when a surprise air attack happens with other ground units to take it to the CS units guarding the techs. Puts the CS on the Defensive till they get reinforcements.

Figure one or the other will perish. Could be the Infiltration might remain secret even if there forces are destroyed. CS would be confused even figure out most of it. Still allot of options. Who says there will be more than one infiltration team ?

Also i realize the CS has air units but is that not a CS Battalion coming over the Ridge ? Till its too later. I am sure they will be looking for the Units and others who are responsible for attacking them. They might even update procedures so that any CS unit that does not have the proper codes will be fired on.

Sure the CS will send out Aircraft for Recon and Surveillance. Even attack when the said unit appears. But i figure with Gaps in there defences CS might loose a few birds if they venture too far out. Sky Cycles and SAMAS patrols would be beefed up. Still the enemy would not be in the Sky or on the ground heck he would be one of them waiting to hit them at the right time. Never knowing till it was too late. Since the Infiltration team would consist of non magical beings. It is likely they could pass themselves off as CS soldiers or PSI Stalkers even Dog Boys.

So years might go by then boom CS Air Defence network goes down as the infiltration team sneak in more operatives into "Cell's" Hitting CS centers in covert attacks as they would never suspect there own. Even civilian targets like the rich and powerful. So when the CS defence network goes down NG or some one else would ride into the CS state hitting them with a Surprise attack.

That CS state would be at war giving whom ever a chance. Other defences sabotage as well. CS is just as vulnerable as any one else. CS counter intel and there intelligence apparatus would be working hard but by that time its too late. Cutting Communications and other sensor data. Or data can be found to have certain officers arrested then replaced with less competent officers or Dupes. Still CS would be vulnerable. CS can be corrupted by bribes or other means.

So in effect if some one went through all that effort CS Chi-Town or Iron Heart even Lone Star would be Vulnerable. Lone Star being the weakest. Would be the most susceptible to such.

Its an interesting fantasy, but it is mostly fueled by a total lack of information on your part. I urge you to get ahold of (borrow, buy used, whatever) some of the newer World Books.

The CS, as presented, has literally NONE of the weaknesses you're imagining. They have dozens or hundreds of border outposts, constant patrols hundreds of miles outside their claimed territory, MILLIONS of men in active military service backed up by an equal number of Skelebots and an equal number of Dog Boys (who are now allowed to wear "old" 80 MDC armor - complete with environmental helmet - and carry rifles and other common equipment, making them every bit the equivalent of a human soldier - better, in a lot of ways). So... easily 8-10 million "soldiers" between real soldiers (3+ million) Skelebots (millions) and Dog Boys (millions) and this is before we even get to the ISS Peacekeeper force, which is armed with "old" body armor and Death's Head Sams and UAR-1s.

Im not blowing smoke nor am i making it up. Read the books, if you can lay your hands on them. It's one of the biggest problems i have with the setting - particularly post-Tolkeen/Aftermath era, the way the books set up the CS, they are an unstoppable juggernaut that could pretty much take on every other power on the Continent without breaking a serious sweat.

Free Quebec only held them at bay because they couldn't put more than a few field armies into the fight and FQ is built for a defensive war (Glitterboy Legions do great on Defense)... and they were still being pushed back. Tolkeen was wiped completley off the map and only held out as long as it did because of writer fiat. They summoned demonic allies by the legions and built TW golems/robots that were every bit the equal of a giant robot... and they still lost, hands-down.

There's no more mystery left to North America, it's literally all mapped out and covered. About the only "wilderness' left is northern Canada/Alaska and a few places near the East Coast and West Coast. That's it.

[Commander]

So since when did the average CS soldier or Dog boy know how to read ? The fact is that most officers might know how to read And yet CS has those weaknesses. So that means yes they can be fooled with fake insignias replicas ect. I have the updated books and the Troops around lets say Lone Star have been reduced during the war. Some people can be bought and the black market or if you have a Forger can give you what you need to infiltrate the CS. You speak of IFF but everything can be countered from ECM to Commando teams to infiltration teams to shut it down. Again it can be subverted.

The Tolkeen war has taken allot of resources. Like any military you need supplies and supply lines. Troops have to come from someplace and i would estimate from what i have read that quite a bit of CS troops are in the North or are around Chi-town. This makes CS quite busy with Missouri and Arkansas. The latter having just joined as much effort is going into that.

CS would never admit to being Vulnerable. CHI-Town would be too difficult to do what i have suggested above.Not only that but they are quite involved in a few projects besides Tolkeen. Yet the average CS soldier is not going to ask too many questions if lets say Larsons Brigade does just that when they send what appears to be a CS company of troops with officers. Having CS equipment and other teams also no one would even imagine it would be to sneak in a few personnel that would sabotage the CS Defences.

Most just assume that the CS is just Chi-Town. But if one would strike at Lone Star CS leaders would be defamed. The ability to protect its citizens would decrease. Sure they would send whole Divisions to there doom to get Lone Star back. But the reality is you over estimate the CS. Despite all its tech it can be subverted and have Counter intelligence personnel in its ranks. CS does have personnel for that task but again doing the Unexpected as a group of players could pull it off as long as the Chars did not have magic.

Best part is that No army real or not is fool proof and impregnable. And i know there is allot of Mystery to North America. The Books fill you in but as a GM or player it is up to you to fill in the gaps. Limiting yourself is kinda my whole point. Also in my example Lone Star Complex and the bases surrounding it do not have the personnel it once did.

Sure there might be electronic locks and cameras but when some one attacks and they are cut off then a battalion of CS troops appears that are instead not CS troops that becomes quite an interesting situation. First thing you said is it would not happen. In Rifts earth or in life. Impossible just sets limits. Improbable perhaps but never impossible. I suggest seeing it from allot of perspectives before i would cast such heavy jugements. A good GM is flexible but also understands the limits of the human condition.

He understands the view points of all and takes the middle road. Even his own opinion. In the CS would like to point out that the Illiteracy is exploitable, Second that orders are to be obeyed. CS does not like soldiers who do not fallow orders. Most people have a voice code ect. No one is really going to check papers for a bunch of grunts or a few low ranking officers. Well placed bribes can make things smoother and when the time comes to dupe officers with new replacements or ones who are incompetent. Then the real fun begins.

I am sure the CS would do anything to get its Armor and Mutant production facilities back. Allot of options. Or some one could get the Vampires so angry they just do the work for them. CS like most big modern day armies have weaknesses. NG and its so called allies have the same problems and is why CS can infiltrate them. Most Spy operations fallow the target of what the common citizen of said kingdom or empire. This means CS can be fooled with false information from Spy's Turncoats or the like. Same goes with CS operations in many areas.

Overall CS has some safeguards from magic or enemies who could trick them with Psionics or the like. CS would have a real hard time finding spy's like any big government. CS is not going to have info that will fall in there lap unless there is a real good reason behind it.

So that means that Spy's who operate in "Cells" Who might engage in all sorts of covert activity are not going to advertise what they are doing. Nor is the nation they are from going to know or Mercenary unit. Not is the CS going to find out unless they really get lucky.

So agents could stay undercover for years. Not to mention there are crooked Cs officers officials police or the like. With the right money and contacts even with the new armor ect it can be done if you are willing to spend a boat load to do it right. That being said it should give you an indication that anyone with far reaching plans is not going to leave most things to chance.

Now if they screw up or constantly keep attacking the CS then yes i could see that. But in an area where its pretty calm even for Rifts then they have a good chance of pulling it off.

[eliakon]

Well we could always look at the original posts question to get some information. The CS Air Defense was good enough to
1) Track AC-29s from far enough away that the 'engagement envelope' was 100 miles outside of CS airspace
2) The defenses are good enough to shoot down said airplanes from 100 miles away
This leads to
The CS has a buffer of at LEAST 100 miles where it can detect, identify, and neutralize aircraft that it feels are a threat before they enter its territory.

To do that it will have to
1) have some way of detecting said aircraft
2) some way of identifying said aircraft
3) some way of shooting down said aircraft

#1 is pretty easy. Radar + Air Patrols (both of which it is mentioned in various books as possessing0
#2 is also pretty easy with computers
#3 has 4 possible ways that I see it can be done
a) AA units outside the CS Proper (very unlikely to be able to provide full coverage)
b) They have LRM units inside the CS that provide AA
c) They scramble air units to intercept
d) a combination of "b" and "c"

[Commander]

Well we could always look at the original posts question to get some information. The CS Air Defense was good enough to
1) Track AC-29s from far enough away that the 'engagement envelope' was 100 miles outside of CS airspace
2) The defenses are good enough to shoot down said airplanes from 100 miles away
This leads to
The CS has a buffer of at LEAST 100 miles where it can detect, identify, and neutralize aircraft that it feels are a threat before they enter its territory.

To do that it will have to
1) have some way of detecting said aircraft
2) some way of identifying said aircraft
3) some way of shooting down said aircraft

#1 is pretty easy. Radar + Air Patrols (both of which it is mentioned in various books as possessing0
#2 is also pretty easy with computers
#3 has 4 possible ways that I see it can be done
a) AA units outside the CS Proper (very unlikely to be able to provide full coverage)
b) They have LRM units inside the CS that provide AA
c) They scramble air units to intercept
d) a combination of "b" and "c"

That is why having some one on the inside to make things not happen like that would be key yes ? Spy's Commandos or Saboteurs who would ensure you get to target area.

[eliakon]

Well we could always look at the original posts question to get some information. The CS Air Defense was good enough to
1) Track AC-29s from far enough away that the 'engagement envelope' was 100 miles outside of CS airspace
2) The defenses are good enough to shoot down said airplanes from 100 miles away
This leads to
The CS has a buffer of at LEAST 100 miles where it can detect, identify, and neutralize aircraft that it feels are a threat before they enter its territory.

To do that it will have to
1) have some way of detecting said aircraft
2) some way of identifying said aircraft
3) some way of shooting down said aircraft

#1 is pretty easy. Radar + Air Patrols (both of which it is mentioned in various books as possessing0
#2 is also pretty easy with computers
#3 has 4 possible ways that I see it can be done
a) AA units outside the CS Proper (very unlikely to be able to provide full coverage)
b) They have LRM units inside the CS that provide AA
c) They scramble air units to intercept
d) a combination of "b" and "c"

That is why having some one on the inside to make things not happen like that would be key yes ? Spy's Commandos or Saboteurs who would ensure you get to target area.

yes a spy or saboteur could take out one specific installation at a time. Though unless your able to impersonate the high command or the like your still going to have to punch out each unit at a go. Sort of like real world wars, you can stop specific units. In this case though AA units are likely to be company to battalion sized elements, in overlapping areas of responsibility. They are likely to have constant two way communication with several (if not all) other units both for information sharing, and security (after all they KNOW that people can sneak in, and that there are people out there that wish them harm). I would suspect that the LRM units will be farther back (as well as being larger, and will almost certainly have psychics).
Hrmmm, I think the best bet would be to try and use technological espionage....and steal IFF codes, and then either get CS or Friendly Nation hardware, and equip it with those IFF codes. Or magic, lots and lots of magic creatively applied can do some...interesting things. The trick is to NOT make yourself Tolkeen level of obnoxious lest you too wake up with the CS starting the day off with a barrage of nuclear missiles, and having the rest of the day go down hill from there.

[flatline]

The trick is to not give them something that they can meaningfully retaliate against. Either be gone before they can react or send disposable troops to accomplish your goals. Even better if you can cause the CS to wage war against your other enemies
.

-flatline

[eliakon]

The trick is to not give them something that they can meaningfully retaliate against. Either be gone before they can react or send disposable troops to accomplish your goals. Even better if you can cause the CS to wage war against your other enemies
.

-flatline

And make sure that your not linked to something that can be attacked either. They don't have to strike the party...if they get the home nation/sponsor.

[flatline]

The trick is to not give them something that they can meaningfully retaliate against. Either be gone before they can react or send disposable troops to accomplish your goals. Even better if you can cause the CS to wage war against your other enemies
.

-flatline

And make sure that your not linked to something that can be attacked either. They don't have to strike the party...if they get the home nation/sponsor.

Exactly.

-flatline

[Kagashi]

Rifts, in general, is very weak when it comes to air defense, electronic warfare, and data links. Much more realistic rules are presented in the new Robotech books. The data links and jamming capabilities of Robotech alone would make it easy for the UEEF to conquer pretty much any tech based entity on Rifts Earth.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Rifts, in general, is very weak when it comes to air defense, electronic warfare, and data links. Much more realistic rules are presented in the new Robotech books. The data links and jamming capabilities of Robotech alone would make it easy for the UEEF to conquer pretty much any tech based entity on Rifts Earth.

Well, its because the tech base of the books was based on Kev's understanding of "super high tech" almost 30 years ago. I mean, mega-computers with 4MB of RAM!

FOUR WHOLE MEGABYTES!

Thats a major part of why the tech in Rifts makes little sense. The entire concept of the continent being largely unexplored wilderness goes out the window when viewed through the lens of modern (today) technology - the Coalition States (hell, ANY tech power with the ability to manufacture rudimentary AI robots) could flood the skies with drones that would map the entire continent in just a few days. Communication could be handled the same way - hang a drone blimp in the air, bounce comm lasers off of it as needed. Hundreds or thousands of them could be sent up for almost no material commitment on the part of the CS or tech power in question. Dirt cheap. Basically, any downfall mentioned by the "lack of satellite technology" in Rifts could be remedied with sub-orbital drones tooling around at 40,000 feet. With cheap nuclear power supplies they could stay aloft literally forever and provide every benefit that previous satellite systems provided.

So, yah.

[jaymz]

There is what I consider an EXCELLENT Rifter article that covers suborbital communications etc.

[Commander]

CS i think does have drones in the CS navy book. Eagle UAV. Still Kevin i think was far reaching in his time with Tech. I mean the Glitter Boy was an still is my favorite besides the Robotech Mecha. Like the Alpha and Beta fighter. Moving on with Rifts earth i think he left it more open.

CS while they do have Skelebot's could use a host of UAV's but still they can be subverted with ECM. Its been my understanding for a bit now that CS while they have the tech rather put resources into tech that will be human controlled. Mini surveillance bots some out of Heros unlimited lines of books would be a good place to start.

CS has to me from described in the books like human implementation at every step. The Problem is that most CS citizens are not literate(Unlike lets say NGR or Japan). This actually is more of a hindrance then most realize. This means its more of a controlled population. Thus new ideas are not common. Only the CS elite and Privileged have that kind of access so it means that the population does not come up with new ideas unless they have the support of the upper class. I view it more like the middle ages with lords and ladies having the privileges while the common folk while smart do not have the breaks the educated lords and ladies do.

So this limits the idea pool. Since the CS also has based themselves off other guys who wear black they want to control its people through propaganda and enforcement. This would be the reason why Drones do not flood the sky. Or one of them. Also it would take resources that CS is pumping into human settlements or its human driven warmachine. The other reason is simply is that the CS might not have the tech or to reuse the tech for there own purposes. So instead of pumping resources into things that will not pan out.

As CS seems to look at past the designs and implement them limiting their creativity. Not to mention other factors i have not mentioned due to Resources and the availability of such. Just a guess here. But i try to remain flexible as do the books the way they were written.

Also for the Infiltration part. I would expect some one who is well funded to keep it a secret with no links to who or whom sent them. Not to mention that the objective will to be not to draw attention. Keeping all activity's subvert. Working through false Identities the could sabotage the defence network to go down at a specific time.

Or a friendly mage or person of magic who is for hire could be employed to Distract the Cs or other threat such as troops who are again not apart of the nation or group who hired them/Sent the PC's. Forging orders ect or someone impersonating a high ranking officer. Not some one well known. But so many levels of subversion and bribes can make things interesting even more in depth. Heck the Black Market offers allot of good items. Even some one on the inside to guide the PC's for the right price ? Best way would to take it down through explosives or computer virus.

IFF would be corrupted when the Virus crashes the defence network and then the Radio room with other planted hidden explosives blow up communications networks. Its all about timing. So if the infiltration team does well it could take down the defences for Ac-29 or other aircraft to hit the hardened defences and CS command center. Not to mention a commando team could be waiting or special strike team. Allot of ways to go. Also leave false trails and false clues leading CS away from the sponsors or client. Sending CS after others like the Federation of Magic or even Nurani ect as CS would vow revenge against said nation.

Or if someone wanted to be even more tricky they could tip off other powers in the region that the CS defences were going down such as the Pecos empire vampires Federation of Magic would send in the throw away troops then have their forces sweep in clean CS out and other hostile "Invited force" So thus killing two birds with one stone. If they want to get even more tricky they could fly the colors of an allied kingdom to the CS or disguise the units as CS (Since IFF will be down confusion will be rampant)

As for the Aftermath yes Psychic's will look into it(Psi-Stalkers ect) but the truth of the matter is even they would be confused and fooled depending on how much depth was put into the Scheme. Allot of things can happen so who can say if the CS investgators will get lucky or not.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

CS while they do have Skelebot's could use a host of UAV's but still they can be subverted with ECM. Its been my understanding for a bit now that CS while they have the tech rather put resources into tech that will be human controlled. Mini surveillance bots some out of Heros unlimited lines of books would be a good place to start.

Which is why they have millions of Skelebots, most of which operate with no direct human controller? They send long-range (hundreds to thousands of miles round trip) search-and-destroy parties made up solely of skelebots, sometimes at battalion strength.

Its a lot more likely that when Kev wrote Rifts, no one had any clue that UAVs would even be a thing in our lifetimes, let alone as prevalent as they are. There's literally no reason that given how we know Tech turned out, that the CS couldn't flat battalions of AI driven (and human monitored, back at base) communications and sensor derigibles.

Its just that literally no one saw that kind of tech being a thing back when this setting was envisioned. I mean, im not exagerating.. everything a satellite network does for our earth, the CS could accomplish with a drone fleet (because they could remain aloft effectively forever) for almost no material cost compared to what they spend on Skelebots in a year.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

CS seems to look at past the designs and implement them limiting their creativity. Not to mention other factors i have not mentioned due to Resources and the availability of such. Just a guess here. But i try to remain flexible as do the books the way they were written.

You might want to check out World Book 11, then; they have tons of innovative designs (Hellraiser, Glitter Boy Killer, Scorpion Skull Walker, Warbird Rocket Cycle, Skysweeper tank) that covered up pretty much every weakness the CS had. And.. ahem... Firestorm Fortress.

Also for the Infiltration part. I would expect some one who is well funded to keep it a secret with no links to who or whom sent them. Not to mention that the objective will to be not to draw attention. Keeping all activity's subvert. Working through false Identities the could sabotage the defence network to go down at a specific time.

To even get into the parts of Chi-town that house such things like the defense network, you have to be cleared at the highest levels, and undergo psychic screenings. The idea that someone could infiltrate on that level is absurd.

Individual border posts or even small to medium sized bases, sure. I can see a good enough spy/agent being able to pull that off.. but when you're trying to infiltrate any of the Arcology cities (and there are 5 in CS Chi-Town alone) you need very high security clearance that you can only get with a thorough Psi-Battalion screening. Good luck getting past the Mind Melter's doing a thorough mental scrubbing.

Or a friendly mage or person of magic who is for hire could be employed to Distract the Cs or other threat such as troops who are again not apart of the nation or group who hired them/Sent the PC's. Forging orders ect or someone impersonating a high ranking officer. Not some one well known. But so many levels of subversion and bribes can make things interesting even more in depth. Heck the Black Market offers allot of good items. Even some one on the inside to guide the PC's for the right price ? Best way would to take it down through explosives or computer virus.

IFF would be corrupted when the Virus crashes the defence network

You're living in some fantasy where there's a single computer node that you can take down that will crash an entire defense network. Every base is going to have an independent system. Most mobile air defense units have their own onboard computer and IFF (Skysweeper tanks, for instance). At best you're going to get one or even a handfull of bases. All you have to do to restore coverage is send out a few Mark V's to cover the gap with their powerful on-board Radar. Or some companies of Skysweeper tanks, or, if the gap is large enough, move a Firestorm Fortress into the area, as well as giant robots like the Skullsmasher and IAR-2. All of those things have totally independent, self contained systems that in some cases cover 100+ miles on their own.

and then the Radio room with other planted hidden explosives blow up communications networks. Its all about timing. So if the infiltration team does well it could take down the defences for Ac-29 or other aircraft to hit the hardened defences and CS command center. .

At best you're going to get a small corridor that might let you a few hundred miles into CS territory.. but no way you're going to be able to take down the entire CS network, as there are dozens of bases that have huge, overlapping areas of coverage. You'd have to take out three or four or more ina line to even open up a single hole. And then there's bases interior to those. To even get close to one of the fortress cities or a high-value target, you'd have to take out dozens of bases worth of installations and some how NOT have the commanders of those installations do something intelligent like... order their independent units with self-contained systems into the field to cover the gaps.

Even half a dozen Skysweeper's would be a force that no AC-29 could make it past. They'd shoot it down in seconds.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Honestly, if you wanted to pull off a successful heavy LRM strike on a major CS base or City, the best way to do it is.... oddly enough.. from the ground. It would probably be possible with enough time and a knowledge of their patrol routes to sneak enough launchers close enough that by the time the defense systems were aware that they were under attack the missiles would already be on top of them.

If, over the course of a few months, yo could sneak in some robots with heavy LRM loads and get them within 20-30 miles of a major installtion, the missiles might have time to get near and strike the target before defenses come online and have a chacne to really engage them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I was going on the assumption of the local-sabotage scenario that was presented.

Against non-compromised defenses? Yeah, no way. You'd have to flood the local point defense with hundreds or thousands of missiles to get a few through.

However, a few IS all you need. Nuclear Multi Warhead are 2d4x100 - just a few could wipe out an entire area pretty effectively.

[Kagashi]

There is what I consider an EXCELLENT Rifter article that covers suborbital communications etc.

You could include buoys. We basically used that before satellites for ships to have some sort of GPS. Also TACANs and VORDME systems easily provide positioning for aircraft and no satellite is needed to do it. Of course, both of these require reading a map in order to figure out where you are...so I guess the CS is out of heading up this venture.

[jaymz]

There is what I consider an EXCELLENT Rifter article that covers suborbital communications etc.

You could include buoys. We basically used that before satellites for ships to have some sort of GPS. Also TACANs and VORDME systems easily provide positioning for aircraft and no satellite is needed to do it. Of course, both of these require reading a map in order to figure out where you are...so I guess the CS is out of heading up this venture.

Why is that? Many of the OCCs get Navigation as a skill thus can read a map.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There is what I consider an EXCELLENT Rifter article that covers suborbital communications etc.

You could include buoys. We basically used that before satellites for ships to have some sort of GPS. Also TACANs and VORDME systems easily provide positioning for aircraft and no satellite is needed to do it. Of course, both of these require reading a map in order to figure out where you are...so I guess the CS is out of heading up this venture.

Why is that? Many of the OCCs get Navigation as a skill thus can read a map.

Except that by and large they are illiterate. So, im not sure how most people would rule on that. Hard to read the map legend, etc, if you cant read. Of course, i ignore the black/white way Palladium plays literacy in Rifts and always have because it's not even possible for the societies to function if so many people are totally illiterate (vs functionally illiterate).

But by the book.. yeah. Most of the guys that would need to read these maps cant read.

[jaymz]

Well if that is the case not one CS soldier can pilot a single vehicle or PA or Robot.

Personally while they may be "illiterate" I assume the are functionally illiterate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

[Kagashi]

There is what I consider an EXCELLENT Rifter article that covers suborbital communications etc.

You could include buoys. We basically used that before satellites for ships to have some sort of GPS. Also TACANs and VORDME systems easily provide positioning for aircraft and no satellite is needed to do it. Of course, both of these require reading a map in order to figure out where you are...so I guess the CS is out of heading up this venture.

Why is that? Many of the OCCs get Navigation as a skill thus can read a map.

Depends on how literal you interpret literacy. I always imagine the "navigation" skill for a CS troop to be them looking at a computer screen and it would be green if you were going where you would be supposed to be going, but red if you were going in the wrong direction...thus "navigating". But even then, you need some kind of coordinates to determine where you are supposed to go. In your GPS, you input an address, or search for a particular store...requiring literacy to accomplish. Unless the officer who can read is inputting that destination for you, the illiterate grunt would be unable to even determine where to go unless there was some sort of voice prompt the computer understood, "Computer, plot a path to Chi-Town, level 4". If its not in that data base, the grunt would be screwed, unable to input any unknown destination.

Real land navigation, and especially airborne navigation requires more than just looking down at a map and interpreting some land feature to compare against. It requires *reading* instruments, some math, plotting coordinates, and altering headings to guess where you will be at a given point in time. Espeicaly when putting your finger on the chart and saying, "we need to go *here*". He would then have to read the chart to get the coordinates and put the plane/power armor in the correct direction. I really dont see how, without computers that do everything for you, any CS grunt would be able to truly navigate.

The navigation skill really should have per-requisites: basic math and literacy. That means every RPA pilot, Military Specialist, Commando, and Pilot should be able to read. At least at a basic level. But that's just my opinion based off of my experience in the air. The whole point of the Palladium skill system is the player or GM doesnt have to really know the skills their characters do...they just roll a dice to see if they achieved what they were trying to achieve.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Well if that is the case not one CS soldier can pilot a single vehicle or PA or Robot.

Personally while they may be "illiterate" I assume the are functionally illiterate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy

FWIW, i completely agree, but that topic is a thrice-ressurected dead horse.

[jaymz]

Yes, yes it is.

[Commander]

Actually Kevin S. does put into perspective how its suppose to work. My understanding through both the first Rifts and Rifts Ultimate Edition. Pg 231 tells that they know what symbols mean sort of like Coat of arms from the middle ages or the skills in a persons trade.The reading actual books the common people or average CS grunt is not book learned. Also try pg 13 of Rifts Ultimate Edition. Cs deems the lower classes of people who most are illiterate to stay that way.

Sure they can read blips heck 1 out of ten might need to learn how to read out of necessity so yes they can read symbols understand how to plot courses. Also most things are voice imprinted sort of like start trek but more dumbed down. On comparison NGR & Triax for that matter have a very educated population. As does Free Quebec.

So this puts into perspective a few things. CS leaders have and always have punished anyone except the elite to have books tapes CD's ect If its not approved by the CS. first a warning then they just kill you. To them people with education are dangerous. But my point is even unlearned folk can be inventive or understand what concepts mean even if they cannot read whole books on lets say First aid or Shakespeare. Even so the reading material is to be enjoyed by the CS privileged.

Anyways i again shift away from the original topic. Since the NGR & Triax are 30 years ahead do you think they have stronger Air defences ?as most of the bots they have are quite formidable compared to the CS. Also i would like to note that repairs on air defences require materials should they become damaged.

So i wonder if it is left up to the Local CS Governor ? Or does the military base commander send out a squad to gather resources with a civilian work crew. Heck they could use prisoners since it is Rifts earth we are talking about. I would find it would be scary. I could see NGR doing the same also to recover bots or vehicles that could be salvaged.

Mining would be also have added danger besides the norm. I am unsure how Northern Gun or other powers handle such but i imagine it would be dangerous to look for scrap, plastic or recycling items from the past. So since the threat is pretty real from massive attack by hostile forces. How long would it take to repair such defences and would some one be able to exploit that as i have discussed above.

Not to mention the guy who gets sent out to the outer defensive ring. He will be exposed so i would imagine that a Mark V or few squads of Cs soldiers with Skelebots even Samas cover him or other techs as they repair the defences. That brings into how long to repair such damage ? one or two days unless they have to replace it with a new one from a factory i would guess.

Also maintenance hours must be a killer. Every bot sky cycle and other machine should have some weekly maintenance. I remember when i played Battletech they had a Mercenaries book with some guidelines on 'Mech maintenance. Or you can use the Robotech rules even create your own. So all tech needs periodic maintenance. Or should unless it has been underused, Stored away. 15% sounds like a good margin for most regular check ups. Heck even Glitter Boy's will need upkeep. But i would keep it simple. Nothing slows a game down like trying to fix stuff but thats a GM suggestion.

Just some thoughts. Sorry if it was all jumbled a bit but i figure it all relates to the Air Defence question.

[flatline]

So the elephant in the room is that we all seem to agree that the CS relies heavily on radar posts, but there are no stats that I'm aware for radar posts. How easy/hard is it to knock out the radar? I'm not talking destroying the whole post, just the transceiver and/or dish in order to blind the post until repairs can be made.

--flatline

[jaymz]

Well the things is while you can take out the post's radar you will still likely have to defend against the posts troops, of which willbe at least a couple of Sams liekly which can cover a portion of the gap....not to mention if they are smart (which is possible that they are not since this is the CS we are talking about) but typically radar posts overlap on all sides and sometimes significantly. The gap may be ther but it may not be very big and in teh meantime the likely response would be increase airt patrol by CS aircraft, and I'm not talking Sams but Nightwings and Talons with what should be better radar systems

[jaymz]

That ouwld only work once though. Unless you have an inside man in several

[jaymz]

Which is already being eon by one group. The republicans IIRC