How would you have done the Shadow Chronicles

[mech798]

Or the "period after Invid Invasion". Because IMO, Shadow Chronicles is a disaster-- a disaster of a movie, and a disaster of a setting. It's a rpg disaster because absolutely everything is overshadowed by the need to get the matrix back-- there's no time to do anything else because the idiot hunter's managed to lose the magic box. It's also a disaster, because great, now you get to reprise Macross, only as the zentraedi...without any big fleet.

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

[Seto Kaiba]

How would you have done the Shadow Chronicles

Put simply... "Not at all."

Were I in a position to make those decisions, I would've point-blank refused to even consider doing yet another feeble attempt to continue the Robotech series. Historically, it has NEVER worked. Even under the closest they've ever had to ideal conditions, when the series was "new" and there was some merchandise for it in stores, they couldn't manage a viable sequel. Harmony Gold just doesn't have the talent, the money, or the rights to the source material necessary to make a sequel work... in no small measure because the sequel fans want is basically Macross in everything but name.

Or the "period after Invid Invasion". Because IMO, Shadow Chronicles is a disaster-- a disaster of a movie, and a disaster of a setting.

Same answer as above, but for a different reason.

Personally, I wouldn't have bothered trying to continue the story after the New Generation because it simply doesn't bear continuing. Yes, Rick Hunter is "missing", but what does it matter? The Robotech Masters and Zentradi have been wiped out, the Sentinels worlds are liberated and (originally) were an entirely thankful and supportive lot, and the Invid have politely removed themselves not just from our world but from the universe in general*.

*Which shows that, at the very least, the Regess's abilities include 4th Wall Awareness.

There are no more enemies.

Humanity has weathered the storm of alien invasions and come out battered, but still alive. Finding a single ship in friendly space is a milk run at best, a rescue effort in friendly space at worst. It isn't a sustainable premise, because the only part of Robotech that has ever historically mattered was Macross, so most of your audience is only going to be watching to find out what became of the Macross Saga characters they cherished. Characters that you, by in large, cannot use.

You either have a very short, uneventful story where Rick turns out to have fallen asleep on the toilet at a Space 7-11 and missed the offensive entirely... or you have to resort to the same tactic Harmony Gold did, and have him go missing again immediately after you find him, which makes the series more a protracted sci-fi session of Where's Waldo? than a credible story.

It's a rpg disaster because absolutely everything is overshadowed by the need to get the matrix back-- there's no time to do anything else because the idiot hunter's managed to lose the magic box. It's also a disaster, because great, now you get to reprise Macross, only as the zentraedi...without any big fleet.

To be fair, the (sort of) mechanically-sound RPG was already a (narrative) disaster for the simple and straightforward reason that Robotech's setting is narratively very small, despite its geographical (or, rather, astrographical) scale. You have a setting in which there are only a tiny number of human survivors after the apocalypse, and all historically-relevant events are driven by the same tiny group exclusively composed of Macross Saga characters. You have two options... one is two ignore pretty much EVERYTHING and write your own story OVER the Robotech story, and the other is to have your story perpetually on the periphery of the events driven by that tiny handful of egos.

At the very least, the RPG (2E) is honest about it... they hang a planet-sized lampshade on that fact when they discuss the state of human society in the core book. An entirely militarized society where they wander the galaxy in search of the last protoculture matrix? That doesn't sound familiar at all... Shadow Chronicles desperately wishes it was the love child of Macross: Do You Remember Love? and the remake of Battlestar Galactica.

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

Skip forward a few hundred to a few thousand years, and throw a civil war as humanity finally starts to establish space colonies and they launch a war of independence against Earth. Ignore anything to do with protoculture, Zor, the flowers of life, or any of the other core macguffins of Robotech.

[ShadowLogan]

It's a rpg disaster because absolutely everything is overshadowed by the need to get the matrix back-- there's no time to do anything else because the idiot hunter's managed to lose the magic box. It's also a disaster, because great, now you get to reprise Macross, only as the zentraedi...without any big fleet.

The RPG is not a disaster in this sense.

First the GM has freedom to set the action when they want, they don't have to set it during Shadow Chronicles. That said PB is shoe-horned in what they can do (apparently) compared to 1E in material.

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

1st I treat the whole TSC animation (and certain aspects of PttSC) as nothing more than a "dream sequence" or if you like a "movie" (ala DYRL in SDF:M).

The N-S missiles aren't blackhole weapons. They certainly are WMDs, but more on the order of asteroid/comet impact.

The Shadow Device and Syncrocannon are not booby-trapped. The Syncrocannon even in RT is something Scott knew about, so likely any booby trap in them is likely shadow device installed to hide the weapons built in PC power source (for TSC).

There are several options for new enemies, but I don't see the need to re-make the Haydonites into an enemy (makes TSC look like a bad-rippoff of the popular BSG remake at the time it was made). We have space pirates (low key action) mentioned in TRM saga (on going issue), the DoZ mentioned by the Masters in TMS, hell Gloval's history briefing allows for there to be another race(s) of giants out there (giants evolved into the Zentraedi, but other splinter evolutionary groups could also exist if they developed successful adaptations), and Shadowwing/Laytow (Rand's FoL vision). The "Children of the Shadow" seems to be a catch all term the Invid use for "bad/evil" (Sera calls Corg a "child of shadow"), so really doesn't point to any one race/faction.

Nor is there a need to push the next confrontation with aliens so close. They could give Earth a breather before throwing it back into the next alien conflict for the next generation to resolve.

The SDF-3 and Rick Hunter are "lost" is part of the 85 ep and is fine (really HG could have done a single movie to resolve this). The Protoculture Factory/Matrix is not on the SDF-3 (the only reason I can see to put it on the ship, is to move it from location A to location B). There is no 1year supply issue (none is mentioned in 85ep, so TSC is out of left field).

[Protoculture]

Frankly speaking, I won't ignore the RTSC setting. While players may want to carry on with post RTSC campaigns off Earth & specifically in deepspace settings ala Sentinel campaigns, I've feel that on Earth itself several campaign settings can still be done even without RTSC undertones.

For example, the UEG revivalism post 3rd RT War by returning UEEF may faced severe oppositions in light of UEEF callous decision to irradiate the planet just to remove a Queen slug. And then the local Earthers might find UEEF is nothing more than another deepspace invaders claiming a stake in the already devastated Earth (that enmity should be amplified x10 with the usage of NS by UEEF). The only regions would reverted back to UEEF would be North America & several South American nations, Japan and Australia, and perhaps UK.

While fan-favorite EBSIS might already succumbed to Invid onslaught during initial Invid Invasion era, I'd suggested the next credible threat to neo-UEG with transplanted nationalistic human nation of NGR (from RIFTS) and North East Asian (Neasian) Alliance (lifted from the RT novelization) to form another type of Cold War settings and outright hostilities. And then there's still the threat of several Invid Genesis Pits controlled by mutants parasitic Gura Invid which provides tons of campaigns settings ala Malcontent Uprisings.

[silvermoon383]

What do I plan to do with the post-Invid era of Shadow Chronicles? Why a lot actually, your post prompted a brainstorming session for me and I have quite a list together (thanks for that)! Now I'm tempted to dispute your opinions of Shadow Chronicles (I actually find it a very worthy successor and am waiting eagerly for Shadow Rising), but that's not really the point of this thread now is it?

My ideas come in 2 major groupings: one that makes quite a bit of use of the Sentinels, (so if SR comes out before I reach this part of the RT story and finally includes them I'll have to do some revisions, but for now I'm gonna be using bits of the Sentinels info gleaned from the McKinney novels.) The other is just random bits and pieces that could easily come about from exploration of the Galaxy.

Sentinels: (most come from the assumption that the Sentinels are also Protoculture using races and are targets of the Haydonites)

-Karbarran shipyards come under attack by the Haydonites, and afterwords Karbarran shipping lanes suffer constant harassment from Haydonite hit and run attacks. The already pressed UEEF has to decide if they are to run their PC supplies and limited manpower thinner by helping to protect their ally, or do they play turtle? The players' ship will have its own opinions, and when the decision is made, will they obey, right or wrong?

-A Haydonite sneak attack on Praxis destroys the "Place of Life", rendering their species unable to reproduce in a pure fashion, putting their entire species at risk of extinction in a single generation. Dilemmas about as debate rages on what to do: encourage procreation with compatible species (humans, Tirolians, Zentradi), thereby ensuring at least a partial survival? Pour unknown amounts of manpower and resources in an attempt to recreate the Place of Life (something that no one had been allowed to study in any detail)? Stretch the fleet even thinner by protecting the planet from future attacks? Leave the Praxians to their doom? Of course the players will have their own opinions, but for now they're off hunting the Haydonites that perpetrated the war crime.

-Garudan ships carrying resupplies of the native atmosphere to its off-planet children are constantly ambushed and either destroyed or disabled. With air supplies dwindling Garudans are forced to leave UEEF and Sentinel facilities just to survive, reducing their presence and voice off-world. Another bombshell hits when several Garudans fall ill, poisoned by the air supplies recovered from the disabled ships. Is it sabotage, or just damage from the attacks? What can the Fleet do to help?

Exploration:

-The Regent may have conquered most of the old Tirolian Empire, but some colonies still survive, simply cut off from the Empire proper. The party's ship follows a PC signal to one such colony. How does the population react to the sudden appearance of an unknown vessel, or to the news it brings? Do they join the rest of their brothers and sisters on Tirol in joining the Sentinels, or do they stick to the Imperial flag and start a campaign to regain the homeworld and rebuild the empire?

-Records on Tirol talk about a weapons testing facility on a remote planet. Dispatched to investigate, what does the party find? A new superweapon that would be invaluable against the Haydonites? Nothing but old relics of a bygone era? Or something worse?

-Since all known interstellar races use Protoculture and fold drives it was thought that that was the only way to do things, but the discovery of an alien ship that flies at FTL speeds without Protoculture or a fold drive raises a lot of questions about science and engineering. Would these new people be friends willing to share, or jealous beings who horde technology like a starving man does food? And how would the Haydonites react when they learn of this new player?

-The ship is critically damaged and is drifting aimlessly through an unknown star system. Amazingly, the astronomical odds of an encounter with a planet run out and the ship plunges through the atmosphere, unable to avoid the giant ball of rock. Managing enough control for a survivable landing, the ship is quickly surrounded by the curious locals. They seem friendly enough at first, but when the military swoops in things get tense in a hurry....

Feel free to use any of these in your campaigns, I'm not a jealous author, and if some people can't think of anything to do in a Shadow Chronicles game but search for the SDF-3, then hopefully these will spur the creative process a bit.

[jaymz]

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

Skip forward a few hundred to a few thousand years, and throw a civil war as humanity finally starts to establish space colonies and they launch a war of independence against Earth. Ignore anything to do with protoculture, Zor, the flowers of life, or any of the other core macguffins of Robotech.

So Mobile Suit Gundam?

[jaymz]

I came up with my own big overarching robotech circle of life and eras utilizing other Palladium titles as well as net material to bring it all together.

The Disciples of Zor are an excellent new foil to throw into the mix and easily done by just using the old Macross II RPG and the Mardook as the DoZ.

I tied the Haydonites back to the Rifts Manhunter Setting. I even tied in the Mechanoids as well an the remaining Macross material. I like big sweeping epic histories and futures.

Mind you I also kept an incarnation of the EBSIS, Merchant Republic and Anti-UN in "my" robotech as well.

[Chronicler]

This is why I'm doing an alternate version of robotech in my campaign. This time the humans are smart enough to build matrixes, and lab grown FoL. Also the haydonites slipped and the Nutron S missles where never used, so invid are still on earth. I'm also using material from Macross 2 for colony worlds and defence.

[Seto Kaiba]

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

Skip forward a few hundred to a few thousand years, and throw a civil war as humanity finally starts to establish space colonies and they launch a war of independence against Earth. Ignore anything to do with protoculture, Zor, the flowers of life, or any of the other core macguffins of Robotech.

So Mobile Suit Gundam?

More like Macross VF-X2... I was thinking extrasolar colonies.

[glitterboy2098]

hmm..

well, to go down a list..

1.) have two movies made simultaniously, or nearly so, so that the sequel can be released within 1-2 years of the first film. sequal would be set midway through the conflict.
2.) have the reflex point scenes more closely match the dialog and events of the show's version.. to the point of 're-shooting' exact copies of certain important scenes to ensure continuity. new material can be inserted between the show's bits to imply it occured 'offscreen' during the show.
3.) the 3D battle animation should be set up to resemble the 2D animation used in the rest of the film, to ensure a smoother transition and meshing of 2D and 3D art elements. (this has been done for over a decade now, its not that much harder)
4.) character designs for the New Generation characters should closely match the original show's appearances. apparent changes in them should be justified in film or in dialog. (for example, Marlene/Ariel still wearing the baggy outfit from the show in the beginning, with her taking the jacket off to reveal her figure during her talk with scott.. to make the more revealing invid outfit from later in the film less jarring.)
5.) Additional Protoculture production exists, but cannot keep up with the demand of the UEEF's current fighting force without the SDF-3's matrix, or earth's expected stockpiles and mention that building a new matrix would take too long. reveal of the shortage of PC should occur after the new threat is revealed.. or if before, should come with mention of a decommissioning plan to meet the reduced supply, which would be scrapped once the haydonites show up. this keeps the 'PC supply is limited' aspect without being so unbeleivable. plus opens up the potential for unseen battlefronts in the haydonite war.
6.) instead of 'super shadow fighters', a new non-PC mecha should have been used. could be described as rejected prototypes of a mecha developed before or in alternative to shadow tech, but but rejected in favor of the easier to use shadow tech. "super alpha's" using the 'de-shadowed' shadowfighter as a basis would appear in the 2nd film, as part of an upgrade to the regular UEEF forces specifically for the Haydonite war.
7.) Haydonite threat increased over all.. mention of "unknown attackers" hitting colony worlds and allies should appear after the SDF-3 battle but before the Liberty Battle. hinting at a much larger conflict developing and making the haydonite reveal to the UEEF more sinister. this theme would be continued in the 2nd film, as the haydonites move up to hitting major UEEF bases and fleets.

my vision of the 2nd movie would be the UEEF at full tilt war with the haydonites.. and slowly losing. while shadow tech has been removed from the remaining UEEF fleet and mecha, they struggle to fight an opponent that has full use of it, plus protoculture tracking. mecha losses being the main area being hit.. to thep oint the UEEF is drafting resistance fighters and anyone else with mecha training to fill the ranks. (could be revealed via video letters from rook and Rand or Lancer and Sera, recent draftee's assigned to another fleet than scott and the rest) of course the UEEF propoganda is that they are holding their own and victory is assured.. something the vetrans don't beleive but new recruits tend to accept until their first few battles. the 2nd film should have them actually find the SDF-3's location.. with the end of the film being the actual recovery of the ship/matrix. thus setting up for a final film where the UEEF prepares to confront the haydonites with their full strength, with a resolution at the end. (exactly how i don't know.. ideally via a unconventional solution. not through force of arms/genocide, to keep anti-war theme going. perhaps Janice finds a way to free the haydonites from the influence of the central haydonite mind or something, and the 'freed' haydonites turn on their enslaver. or something. shades of the zentraedi in the 1st war.

[Alpha 11]

Really loving these ideals!

[mech798]

My own take would be that there IS no other great enemy. That's not the problem. The problem is that Mankind won the war, for some value of "won" but now must face the chaos that came after teh war. After all, mankind's ability to survive will demand a rapid increse in population, alliance building, and most importantly preventing any other group from going conquistador. That can be difficult when you assuem that their are worlds out there with populations in the billions-- but mankind has, even by the most incredibly optimistic reading of the story, well under 50 million people. Worse, the majority of individuals at their peak in terms of having and raising children haven't been-- they've been in the army, which means a very ugly demographic bump is in the offing. (And it's not simple to change that-- an entire generation has been raised with one goal, and it's hard to turn around and say: okay, form families and have an average of six children every ten years).

Not only that, but the UEEG doesn't really exist-- in addition to problems with earth, how many soldiers are oging to decide to leave the service? Does the high command have any legal right ot keep them, and what do they do if a few units decide to retire anyway, and back it up with a few reflex cannon?

The thing is, the "new big bad" is a really overused trope. It's not needed-- there's quite enough chaos in the aftermath of hte fall of the Masters, Zentraedi, and Invid to keep every human hero busy for a lifetime.

[Seto Kaiba]

My own take would be that there IS no other great enemy. That's not the problem. The problem is that Mankind won the war, for some value of "won" but now must face the chaos that came after teh war. After all, mankind's ability to survive will demand a rapid increse in population, alliance building, and most importantly preventing any other group from going conquistador. [...]

's not that tall an order, really... the alliance-building was already well underway long before the final assault on Earth in 2044 was launched. Humanity had already exchanged ambassadors and formed decent working relationships with the alien races they liberated during their own crusade across the Sentinels worlds. That's what the Sentinels Council is. The United Earth Forces are totally out of enemies, because the humans on Earth couldn't put up any fight at all, and every alien race that remains in the galaxy is already an ally.

Not only that, but the UEEG doesn't really exist-- in addition to problems with earth, how many soldiers are oging to decide to leave the service? Does the high command have any legal right ot keep them, and what do they do if a few units decide to retire anyway, and back it up with a few reflex cannon?

There's a catch there...

Namely, that the United Earth Government has been pretty much entirely for show since it was destroyed by the Zentradi. Gloval and the other military brass were the de facto ruling body of Earth during the early reconstruction, and with Harmony Gold's official stance on the gov't from the Masters Saga being nothing more than a puppet government that served the military, that's basically just a continuation of the same situation (they're just less honest about it). After the Earth was conquered, the only ruling body left was (no surprise) the military's brass living out in space.

The only government after the Zentradi Holocaust was a military dictatorship.

The thing is, the "new big bad" is a really overused trope. It's not needed-- there's quite enough chaos in the aftermath of hte fall of the Masters, Zentraedi, and Invid to keep every human hero busy for a lifetime.

Yes, but Robotech isn't really a story that can stand up on its own once there isn't an evil alien invader to fight. It's like Diet Warhammer 40,000... in the grim darkness of the NEAR future, there is only war.

[slade the sniper]

Or the "period after Invid Invasion". Because IMO, Shadow Chronicles is a disaster-- a disaster of a movie, and a disaster of a setting. It's a rpg disaster because absolutely everything is overshadowed by the need to get the matrix back-- there's no time to do anything else because the idiot hunter's managed to lose the magic box. It's also a disaster, because great, now you get to reprise Macross, only as the zentraedi...without any big fleet.

So what would you have done (or are doing if you've ignored shadow chronicles) for the post invid setting?

I do it as Rifts. The UEF comes back and finds that the Terrans really really really don't want their help...and the fact that nuking the planet with Neutron-S missiles was viable plan...the Terrans are really unhappy about that. It makes the UEF bad guys...and Triax, the Coalition States, the mutated remnants of the EBSIS almost heroic...especially seeing as how when the UEF left, they didn't really have a clue how bad it was going to get...and yet here comes the "good guy" UEF coming to save the day by bungling 3 invasions and this time they brought the Haydonites in full pursuit...hooray for the Hunters and all the rest of glory hound space soldiers..NOT!

At least, that is what I did.

-STS

[mech798]

Yes, but Robotech isn't really a story that can stand up on its own once there isn't an evil alien invader to fight. It's like Diet Warhammer 40,000... in the grim darkness of the NEAR future, there is only war.

I'm not certain if that is entirely true-- the first three parts are tied toegether by the protoculture-- Earth is sitting on the galaxy's most important strategic resuource. But after that, not so much. The Hydonites are more "Team evil" than any other group for the simple reason that they don't seem to have any logical reason for their actions. But I do think you could do a decent book series set about "what happens after" hwere "after" is a time where the galaxy is more or less at peace, but mankind isn't really set up for that. What happens when half the UEEF decides they want to retire? Or mnaybe they want to retire on Tirol, which granted is war scarred but arguably more urbanized than earth. retc. (I say book because this sort of thing really doesn't work for a movie, and let's face it, HG's chance of ever putting together another series is about as great as us finding out that Disney sold them the *Frozen* franchise).

[ShadowLogan]

Yes, but Robotech isn't really a story that can stand up on its own once there isn't an evil alien invader to fight. It's like Diet Warhammer 40,000... in the grim darkness of the NEAR future, there is only war.

I'm not sure that is actually the case. Yes I agree humanity should get lull periods to recover from a given war. Still they could fast forward in time a decade or so (TMS to TRM) and explore a new alien danger. And the show does offer up several options that really haven't been explored, one of which is more low intensity "police" action though.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, but Robotech isn't really a story that can stand up on its own once there isn't an evil alien invader to fight. It's like Diet Warhammer 40,000... in the grim darkness of the NEAR future, there is only war.

I'm not certain if that is entirely true-- the first three parts are tied toegether by the protoculture-- Earth is sitting on the galaxy's most important strategic resuource.

All four parts are tied together by protoculture... specifically, the events of the original series' three sagas depict what happens when aliens launch wars against humanity to gain control of that last surviving source of protoculture. The fourth installment depicts what happens when aliens decide that using the stuff is bad news and opt to murder everyone who uses it.

The story patently skips all the bits that DON'T involve war with alien oppressors or invaders... and humanity in space has grown into a society that knows only war.

I'm not sure that is actually the case. Yes I agree humanity should get lull periods to recover from a given war. Still they could fast forward in time a decade or so (TMS to TRM) and explore a new alien danger.

Didn't you just make my point for me here? There's no story unless there's a new alien danger.

[Alpha 11]

I know were they can go. Do the Sentinals! That's at least 2 seasons right there.

[ShadowLogan]

Didn't you just make my point for me here? There's no story unless there's a new alien danger.

Sorry incomplete thought.

I am not sure that is actually the case. FTS comic shows that RT can have a story that isn't focused on use of actual aliens in the plot for the story. I'm not very familiar with the older comic lines, so they may also have a few exceptions. But from what I know there has never been a real push to not use an alien threat in Robotech as part of the story focus consistently, so we don't know how well Robotech can function without it. Would it still be Robotech, if they focused on police actions during feudal reconstruction Earth (2015-2028) with a prime focus on human dissidents (and maybe the occasional alien) or at a colony world?

Humanity as a whole though does deserve a break from war in Robotech in order to better recover. There are alien threats out there, that can be taken from the 85ep for sure, but there is no pressing need to make it happen right away or have them be the next big bad wolf. If conflict is to happen, it could easily be done more on a regional and/or low-intensity level and could even occur with humans.

Also your comparison to WH40k is not necessarily wrong, but when one looks at recorded human history as a whole, humanity has been involved in wars for almost its entire recorded history. Wars are almost always happening somewhere in the world.

[Seto Kaiba]

I know were they can go. Do the Sentinals! That's at least 2 seasons right there.

Aren't they still adamantly insisting that Sentinels is over and they won't revisit it?

Didn't you just make my point for me here? There's no story unless there's a new alien danger.

Sorry incomplete thought.

I am not sure that is actually the case. FTS comic shows that RT can have a story that isn't focused on use of actual aliens in the plot for the story.

Er... you may want to go back and review that one, because the core focus of the setting of that one was 1. the discovery that there is hostile alien life in the universe and 2. the development of weapons for fighting same. The alien threat is still very much present in that story, it just has yet to manifest itself into actual open hostilities.

I'm not very familiar with the older comic lines, so they may also have a few exceptions. But from what I know there has never been a real push to not use an alien threat in Robotech as part of the story focus consistently, so we don't know how well Robotech can function without it.

There were a few comics that tried to ignore the "alien threat" thing, but they didn't do well.

Humanity as a whole though does deserve a break from war in Robotech in order to better recover.

Oh, I agree... aliens have had humanity on the ropes for so long they deserve a break. The problem is that, unlike its primogenitor and other component series, Robotech is less about relationships and more about war. The emphasis of the originals shifted when they were adapted into Robotech in the editorial rewriting process that tried to simplify them for a much younger audience than what they had originally been conceived for.

A war story without war isn't much of a story... and that's Robotech's recurring problem. In my brief, but growing exposure to Star Wars, that franchise seems to have much the same problem. Without a war in the stars, Star Wars as a setting doesn't stand up nearly as well as it does in times of galactic conflict.

Also your comparison to WH40k is not necessarily wrong, but when one looks at recorded human history as a whole, humanity has been involved in wars for almost its entire recorded history. Wars are almost always happening somewhere in the world.

True, but we're a world of billions now and made up of many different nations, belief systems, etc., so conflict is all but inevitable (even though the statistics show we're actually getting better at quashing this stuff and keeping it small). Robotech is a setting where humanity is essentially united under one government, and numbers at most a few million souls. They've had decades of common threat to unite them, and they've just successfully liberated Earth from alien oppression. They're not going to have fodder for a civil war because their forces were decimated by the Invid and the people who are most likely to rebel are down to black powder revolvers and harsh language in terms of weaponry.

Robotech: a Tale of Bucolic Harmony doesn't exactly make for compelling watching. It'd be like watching someone else play Harvest Moon or Animal Crossing.

[ShadowLogan]

Er... you may want to go back and review that one, because the core focus of the setting of that one was 1. the discovery that there is hostile alien life in the universe and 2. the development of weapons for fighting same. The alien threat is still very much present in that story, it just has yet to manifest itself into actual open hostilities.

The alien aspect though was not part of the conflict in the story, the conflicts it depicts are straight earthling vs earthling. That aliens form part of the background for the setting I do not dispute, but the actual contribution to events depicted was limited at best.

The problem is that, unlike its primogenitor and other component series, Robotech is less about relationships and more about war. The emphasis of the originals shifted when they were adapted into Robotech in the editorial rewriting process that tried to simplify them for a much younger audience than what they had originally been conceived for.

I have to disagree here. Within the 85ep, relationships still have a very strong emphasis and impact to the story. LATER projects do seem to place less emphasis on relationships and more about the war (which might be one of the factors in getting a successful continuation).

A war story without war isn't much of a story... and that's Robotech's recurring problem. In my brief, but growing exposure to Star Wars, that franchise seems to have much the same problem. Without a war in the stars, Star Wars as a setting doesn't stand up nearly as well as it does in times of galactic conflict.

While there needs to be some type of conflict in a story, I don't think it requires a war. We see countless other stories portrayed (written, comic, animation, live-action, etc) that don't involve war, conflict yes, but not war. Robotech is really no different really.

With the Star Wars EU I lost interest in a long time ago, not so much because of the nearly constant state of war, but at the time the authors seemed to be in a general trend of one-up-man-ship (IMHO) when it came to the original trilogy characters in the story. The final nail in the coffin was the first book for 'Vong invasion.

True, but we're a world of billions now and made up of many different nations, belief systems, etc., so conflict is all but inevitable

unfortunatly we have had the problem long before our population got into the billions. IIRC the class description in high school (nearly 20years), its something like 5years or so where war has not been occurring somewhere with humanity out of all of recorded history.

They're not going to have fodder for a civil war because their forces were decimated by the Invid and the people who are most likely to rebel are down to black powder revolvers and harsh language in terms of weaponry.

Conflict though need not be a civil war category. Conflict within the Robotech story could take the form of actions against organized crime (gangs, drug smuggling, etc) trying to maintain or expand their "hold".

[Seto Kaiba]

The alien aspect though was not part of the conflict in the story, [...]

Not directly... it might not have been humans shooting aliens, but the alien conflict drove every significant event in the comic. The UEG was formed because of the alien threat. The Anti-Unification League was formed in response to that. The story itself centers around testing anti-alien weapons (and the AUL's efforts to sabotage same). The threat posed by aliens is there, as loud and proud as ever. It's always been there in Robotech.

While there needs to be some type of conflict in a story, I don't think it requires a war. We see countless other stories portrayed (written, comic, animation, live-action, etc) that don't involve war, conflict yes, but not war. Robotech is really no different really.

Robotech is a war story. Or rather, a wars story, since it concerns four or five different ones (depending on how you split it). The story is never NOT about war. You can't take the war out of Robotech the way you could with the Macross or Gundam universes. There's just nothing for humanity to do without war in Robotech.

[silvermoon383]

There's just nothing for humanity to do without war in Robotech.

Sure there is. They have a pretty serious need to rebuild, after all, Earth's a wreck. Then there's the integration of the Zentradi and Tirolians, how'd that go? I'm sure that wasn't all peaches and cream.

[jaymz]

As far as we know (and scott even says as much at one point) Zentraedi are all but extinct by the time of New Gen

[silvermoon383]

But what does that mean? They're not physically extinct, we saw them fighting the Regent in Prelude so they're around, not to mention Dana and Maia are both around so there're still some half-breeds as well. To me, I seriously doubt the Zentradi are gone, they're just extinct as a society. They've been with humanity long enough by the time Earth's free to fully merge with human society.

[jaymz]

Zentraedi are all but extinct

Exactly what it says. They are all but extinct. Dana and Maia could very well be the only Zentraedi genetics left. Keep in mind the event in prelude are quite sometime before the events of New Gen the way Prelude was written.

[mech798]

Zentraedi are all but extinct

Exactly what it says. They are all but extinct. Dana and Maia could very well be the only Zentraedi genetics left. Keep in mind the event in prelude are quite sometime before the events of New Gen the way Prelude was written.

Well, 'extinct' can mean a vareity of things-- afer all, the rpg refers to zentradi blooded soldiers, and the zentraedi didn't actually have much of a culture. So even if there are people with zentraedi blood running around, "extinct" could simply mean that as a culture and society they are gone-- the only zentraedi left are those who have assimilated. which in truth is very likely-- the Zentraedi were never created to be an independent culture, but disposable weapons so there's not much in thier culture that would endure after assimilation.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sure there is. They have a pretty serious need to rebuild, after all, Earth's a wreck.

Which would be why the story persistently ignores that in favor of the next war, yes?

Then there's the integration of the Zentradi and Tirolians, how'd that go? I'm sure that wasn't all peaches and cream.

Oh, I'm sure it wasn't... mostly because it didn't freaking happen (in canon Robotech).

Scott Bernard and Marcus Rush both imply in their respective titles that the Zentradi are functionally extinct in the 2040s, and all but two of the Zentradi we see in that period belong to a single, segregated unit under Breetai's command. 2043's events, as depicted in the Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles, ended with that unit being utterly destroyed by Gen. Edwards' surprise attack during their attack on the Regent's flagship, while Exedore was killed along with everyone else in the Deucalion's crew during a neutron-s missile test firing. Miriya is probably the only Zentradi left, though she isn't mentioned at all and may have died when Edwards shot the bow off the SDF-3.

The RPG asserts that Breetai's unit also included Tirolians, but there's no evidence in the comic to support it and Marcus's reaction in the movie makes it painfully clear that nonhumans and hybrids are pretty much unheard-of in the UEEF.

As far as Tirolian integration... what integration? The only Tirolians who ever appear are Rem and Cabell, and they're just ambassadors to the United Earth forces. The RPG claims that Tirolians did fight alongside the UEEF, but there's nothing to support that (the only unit that uses Bioroid Interceptors is Breetai's... and you know what became of THAT). The RPG's line was basically that Tirolians would stay on Tirol, and humans would stay on Earth, and there might have been trade if only the Haydonites hadn't shot that plan to hell. As it is, the only Tirolians in the UEEF's vicinity are Rem and Cabell...

But what does that mean? They're not physically extinct, we saw them fighting the Regent in Prelude so they're around, [...]

We saw them get wiped out in Prelude... and that, coupled with Exedore's death on the Deucalion, means it's pretty much a given that the Zentradi are functionally extinct (meaning there aren't enough of them left to make a comeback) and may be just a few individuals short of actual extinction. Miriya is likely the last of her kind, unless you're counting her half-Zentradi daughters... or unless she died in the attack on the SDF-3.

The dialogue of the New Generation and Shadow Chronicles doesn't support the idea of Zentradi integration... Scott's not exactly shy about stating that he hopes the Invid meet the same fate as the Zentradi (considering he hates them with a zealot's passion, integrating them into human society is obviously not his meaning) and Marcus's abject shock at learning that one of his fellow pilots is not entirely human doesn't augur well for the existence of ANY hybrids apart from Maia and Dana Sterling. Casually voicing your hatred for aliens probably wouldn't fly if there were large numbers of Zentradi among the UEEF's regular troops.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, 'extinct' can mean a vareity of things--

Please refer to my previous post about why the meaning of "Extinct" means "died out" in this case... any other meaning just doesn't fit with the dialogue and behavior of the characters.

afer all, the rpg refers to zentradi blooded soldiers, [...]

In this, like many other things, the RPG is not exactly in line with Robotech proper.

Marcus makes it very clear that nonhumans are pretty much unheard-of in the UEEF's main forces, and the only Zentradi troops we see are in Breetai's all-Zentradi unit that gets wiped out by Edwards while they're attacking the Regent's ship. The RPG also claims there are Tirolian troops, but we never see any evidence of them at all.

[mech798]

Well, 'extinct' can mean a vareity of things--

Please refer to my previous post about why the meaning of "Extinct" means "died out" in this case... any other meaning just doesn't fit with the dialogue and behavior of the characters.

afer all, the rpg refers to zentradi blooded soldiers, [...]

In this, like many other things, the RPG is not exactly in line with Robotech proper.

Marcus makes it very clear that nonhumans are pretty much unheard-of in the UEEF's main forces, and the only Zentradi troops we see are in Breetai's all-Zentradi unit that gets wiped out by Edwards while they're attacking the Regent's ship. The RPG also claims there are Tirolian troops, but we never see any evidence of them at all.

True, though that's one bit of OSM that if I ever start another campaign is going to get dumped (for tha tmatter, I may just dump the entire Shadow Chronicles bit). But as you said in another post, this is really also a function of how narratively limited the writers made robotech-- people in the series talk about a galaxy, but it's really earth, Tirol, a few worlds mostly off camera, and that's it-- and in that setting, killing off the zentraedi is entirely reasonable. If the empire of the masters was truly portrayed as a galaxy, or even a good chunk of the galaxy, wide empire, it's likely that there would still be millions or more zentraedi around, on ground bases that got bypassed, if nothing else.

Personally, I think this is another reason (beyond the lack of money, bad production values stemming from same, etc) that we're not likely to see much more in the way of Shadow Chronicles-- they've created a setting that can only be a reprise of the earlier shows, because they've systematically stripped out a lot of the material that could widen the field. It's all about the quest for the SDF-1, er, SDF-3 because the writers made that not only the only reasonable thing the characters can do, but the only place the story can go-- they managed to completely elminate the ability to use the sentinels races, for example.

[silvermoon383]

You guys a making a classic mistake when it comes to franchise universes: the only story (and main story) is what we see on the screen. As a die-hard Trekkie I can tell you that it one of the worst methods to deciding how a story universe is detailed. That mentality is like saying Starfleet consists of maybe a dozen ships and starbases (Enterprise plus whatever ships they happen to meet up with) with the vast numbers of the Dominion War-era simply an oddball, situational bump, and that Kirk/Picard are the only captains who matter in the Federation.

TV shows, movies, and even books can only show a small slice of a story universe on their own. It takes a lot of work and a lot of resources to build a universe, just look through a series bible for any franchise that has one. I'm willing to bet only a small fraction of it shows up on screen/in print (Avatar is a prime example here).

Now as for Zentradi and Tirolian integration and the shock at hybrids there are plenty of possible explanations, mine is thus: the Zentradi were decimated at Earth and the survivors either joined the human population or turned Malcontent. That was within the first generation. It's now been 2-3 so it's quite possible that they have fully integrated with human society by 2043 (just look at the children and grandchildren of immigrants. Within the same time period you'd never think that they weren't of this culture). Tirolians would be a generation behind, but since the UEEF is residing on their moon after saving them from the Invid I'd say things are pretty good between them. Adding in the fact that humans, Zentradi, and Tirolians are effectively the same species makes the idea that Tirolian and Zentradi become new types of races in the human gene pool (like asian, black, or whatever subdivisions the census bureau comes up with).

People like Marcus Rush would've grown up in a world where aliens have integrated with his society to the point where they're one culture. Again going back to the fact that the 3 are effectively one species, it's probable that no one even thinks about the differences between them by this point. The idea of a hybrid is probably just shocking to think of for him because unless someone said they were one there's probably no way to tell. (Another possibility is that even though the 3 races are the same they're highly segregated). Besides, I would think it very, very odd for a person who grew up on an alien planet among aliens would think of the possibility of cross-breeds when there's at least one high profile example to be shocking.

Now granted, I know I go with the thought that the Tirolians integrated with humanity but that they have representatives on the Sentinels Council. Maybe they are a separate entity still and that Tirolians in the Fleet are solitary volunteers (like US pilots in WWII England prior to 1941), or survivors from the Masters' Fleet rescued when the Invid invaded Earth. Again, there are several possibilities.

Long story short, go by only what's on screen and you'll only get a small piece of the picture. Some go with the human-centric view (humans are it, aliens and cross-breeds are statistic outliers), some like me go with the integration and cooperation view (humans forming/joining an interstellar alliance to counter the Invid Horde). Where is the canon for that? Probably locked up in some forgotten desk drawer in HG's office, maybe in Tommy Yune's head, or maybe it's a detail they never thought of. Either way, trying to figure this out without their input is like trying to read the Bible and getting consensus on everything.

[ShadowLogan]

Not directly... it might not have been humans shooting aliens, but the alien conflict drove every significant event in the comic. The UEG was formed because of the alien threat. The Anti-Unification League was formed in response to that. The story itself centers around testing anti-alien weapons (and the AUL's efforts to sabotage same). The threat posed by aliens is there, as loud and proud as ever. It's always been there in Robotech.

The not directly is my point. Yes the UEG was formed and taking actions to prepare (which was the focus), the actual conflict with aliens was not there. There is no reason another story could not take a similar approach to how alien invasion would be a factor in the story.

Robotech is a war story. Or rather, a wars story, since it concerns four or five different ones (depending on how you split it). The story is never NOT about war. You can't take the war out of Robotech the way you could with the Macross or Gundam universes. There's just nothing for humanity to do without war in Robotech.

Robotech is more than just a war(s) story though. There are other aspects that Robotech does focus on that do not require a war:
-love stories (Lisa/Rick/Minimei, Max and Miryia, Dana's infatuation with Zor, Bowie and Musica, Sean and Marie, Nova, Rook and Rand, Scott and Marlene/Ariel, Lancer and Sera, Annie's search)
-espionage (3-Spies, GMP, Ariel)
-ethics/philosophy (we see Star Trek episodes that are more centered here)

There is plenty for humanity to do w/o war in Robotech from a story perspective and still remain viable. These can can take place in and outside of war:
-a police team dealing with various criminal activities
-a fire/rescue team
-espionage
-"exploration" themed (be it testing prototypes, training, or visiting new worlds)

[Seto Kaiba]

True, though that's one bit of OSM that if I ever start another campaign is going to get dumped (for tha tmatter, I may just dump the entire Shadow Chronicles bit).

OSM is the Original Source Material, meaning the Japanese shows. That's something that they added in the Robotech adaptation.

You guys a making a classic mistake when it comes to franchise universes: the only story (and main story) is what we see on the screen.

Ah, No... we're not the ones making that mistake. That'd be Harmony Gold's doing. Palladium took lots of liberties with the RPG to try and fix that, but even then there's no getting around the show's narrow focus.

Robotech is a very narrowly focused story, where the same handful of characters are the driving force behind literally everything of significance. The only "side stories" are those that tie directly into the main animated story in some fashion. With the sole exception of the Sentinels story arc, we basically do have a story where the ONLY events that matter are the ones we see on the screen. Do away with Rick Hunter, and EVERY MAJOR EVENT falls apart, for instance.

The setting is big. It's downright colossal... astrographically, anyway. In terms of what MATTERS to the story, it's a setting so small you could fit it in a matchbook without taking any matches out first. The only people who matter and drive events are the surviving Macross Saga characters (the Hunter family, the Sterling family, the Grant family, Dr. Lang), their family members (Dana, Maia, etc.) and a selection of close friends or trusted subordinates of those officers (Scott, Jack, Marcus, etc.). The only worlds that matter are Earth, Tirol, and, to a lesser extent, Optera.

You have a story that COULD be handled as a tiny slice of a broader setting, and a studio that actively decides not to do so in favor of relying on fan favorite characters to drive every event in the story.

As a die-hard Trekkie I can tell you that it one of the worst methods to deciding how a story universe is detailed. That mentality is like saying Starfleet consists of maybe a dozen ships and starbases (Enterprise plus whatever ships they happen to meet up with) with the vast numbers of the Dominion War-era simply an oddball, situational bump, and that Kirk/Picard are the only captains who matter in the Federation.

But that's EXACTLY how Paramount plays it 99% of the time! Virtually every significant crisis waits to start until the Enterprise is literally the only ship within a couple of days' travel time. They hang quite a sizable lampshade on it in First Contact when, for once, the Enterprise was the only ship NOT present and things immediately go to pot until the Enterprise shows up late to save the day.

(At least in Voyager they had an excuse!)

TV shows, movies, and even books can only show a small slice of a story universe on their own.

True, but the question then becomes: "Is there anything else that's actually worth noticing going on there?". More often than not, the answer is "Not really". Take, for instance, Star Trek, where a single ship is at the center of almost every first contact event or galactic crisis... to the extent you'd swear the entire crew should have some pretty massive PTSD. Or Harry Potter, where nothing noteworthy happens unless it directly involves Harry. I take Star Wars to task for this a lot, as pretty much every significant event seems to involve a Skywalker, a Solo, or one of their friends, like the whole galaxy exists purely for the stories of a few people.

There are very few stories where you have a big setting that is ACTUALLY, NARRATIVELY big. Where you can actually have multiple, important stories going on at the same time and have essentially zero overlap. It's one of the reasons I love Macross so much... you can have stories set even in the same city, at the same time, and most of the time the characters of one will never interact with the characters from the other... like Macross the Ride and Macross Frontier, or Macross 7 Trash and Macross 7. Gundam offers more of these than I can reliably shake a stick at, and you have no idea what a mind screw it was for me to learn that Record of Lodoss War is set on the same world as Louie the Rune Soldier (considering one is serious fantasy and the other's a comedy...)

People like Marcus Rush would've grown up in a world where aliens have integrated with his society to the point where they're one culture.

The problem with your line of thinking is that both Scott and Marcus are vehemently xenophobic, as is General Leonard. The whole UEEF casually bandies about remarks about how aliens aren't trustworthy, which rather indicates they've gone Imperium of Terra and don't welcome aliens in among them.

The idea of a hybrid is probably just shocking to think of for him because unless someone said they were one there's probably no way to tell.

Prelude gave each race a distinctive appearance, so Marcus has grounds to be legitimately shocked... considering Maia isn't seven feet tall and bright blue, or skinny and fey looking. They're at the point in design where the difference between a Zentradi and a Human or a Tirolian and a Human ought to be obvious at a glance. That's part of Marcus's shock in the movie... Maia's an alien who doesn't LOOK alien.

Long story short, go by only what's on screen and you'll only get a small piece of the picture.

That's true for some stories, but emphatically false for Robotech.

[Seto Kaiba]

The not directly is my point.

But your objection to my point doesn't hold up... the fact remains that the alien threat is STILL THERE, squatting on the proceedings like an excessively large toad. Just because they're not sticking the alien up your nose doesn't mean it isn't there.

Robotech is more than just a war(s) story though. There are other aspects that Robotech does focus on that do not require a war: [...]

Robotech changed the emphasis more towards the war side, so instead of being love stories set against a backdrop of war, they're war stories with a romance subplot. They put all the emphasis on combat. We don't see these people in peacetime. EVER.

There is plenty for humanity to do w/o war in Robotech from a story perspective and still remain viable. These can can take place in and outside of war:

Take the alien threat out of the picture and you're no longer running a Robotech story though... that's the one defining aspect of Robotech's stories. Once it's just police fighting criminals using robots, you're telling a Patlabor story or maybe AD Police, for instance.

[ShadowLogan]

But your objection to my point doesn't hold up... the fact remains that the alien threat is STILL THERE, squatting on the proceedings like an excessively large toad. Just because they're not sticking the alien up your nose doesn't mean it isn't there.

The THREAT IS THERE. I don't dispute that. But within the story itself nothing ever becomes of it. Its status at the start and end of the story hasn't changed and nothing the characters do in the story has an effect on it. So its actual use in the story is minimal, which is something other RT themed stories CAN duplicate.

Robotech changed the emphasis more towards the war side, so instead of being love stories set against a backdrop of war, they're war stories with a romance subplot. They put all the emphasis on combat. We don't see these people in peacetime. EVER.

I disagree. Those other story aspects are still present, maybe in less emphasized form, but they are still there. Without them, RT would be a much shorter story.

Take the alien threat out of the picture and you're no longer running a Robotech story though... that's the one defining aspect of Robotech's stories. Once it's just police fighting criminals using robots, you're telling a Patlabor story or maybe AD Police, for instance.

I don't think that is the actual case. I'm not saying completely remove alien presence, but they do not have to be in a hot war.

Could have the police/espionage dealing with Zentreadi criminal/dissidents, or Tirolians if the period and location is appropriate. Fire/Resue could also be interesting in emphasis.

And while the story might be using robots similar to Patlabor or AD Police. How many shows are out there that involve war conflict (human vs human, or human vs alien), and involve the use of mecha/'bots (SDF:M and variants, Gudam and its, SDC:SC, GCM, Orgus, and Duogram come to mind)? Just because other shows exist, doesn't mean RT can't attempt to diversify itself with known elements and themes in a different situation beyond just being a war story.

[Seto Kaiba]

The THREAT IS THERE. I don't dispute that. But within the story itself nothing ever becomes of it. Its status at the start and end of the story hasn't changed and nothing the characters do in the story has an effect on it.

The threat is there, and by its very presence the story is made possible... everything the characters do in the story has a direct effect on humanity's ability to meet that threat. It may not be the story's big focus, but it underlines EVERY event in it. Take the threat away, and the story goes away too... that would be what I'm getting at.

The outcome of the story directly affects the outcome of the war. Leonard's destruction of a Grand Cannon hampers Earth's defenses, and his attempted destruction of Alaska Base and so on would've left Earth even more defenseless. Likewise, Roy's influence directly results in the VF-1 programme's being resumed and completed, leading to the introduction of mass-produced VF-1s.

I don't think that is the actual case. I'm not saying completely remove alien presence, but they do not have to be in a hot war.

Doesn't Robotech have a disturbingly literal application of what I'm talking about in its history... Harmony Gold first attempt at a movie, which when you subtracted the aliens from the equation was just a shoddy dub of Megazone 23 Part 1?

[ShadowLogan]

Doesn't Robotech have a disturbingly literal application of what I'm talking about in its history... Harmony Gold first attempt at a movie, which when you subtracted the aliens from the equation was just a shoddy dub of Megazone 23 Part 1?

Actually the Megazone23 adaptation has two forms:
1. the dub, which apparently "wasn't a canon film" that led to
2. the spliced affair that brought in aliens as part of the plot.

I can say I've seen #2, but not #1. #2 like TSC had continuity issues with the 85ep (don't know which is worse in that regard). I can't comment on #1. Still it had more to do with the distributor wanting changes made to what they wanted.

The outcome of the story directly affects the outcome of the war.

True, but the threat of the war that was present isn't changed by any actions taken so it's impact on the story at the time is minimal.

[mech798]

True, though that's one bit of OSM that if I ever start another campaign is going to get dumped (for tha tmatter, I may just dump the entire Shadow Chronicles bit).

OSM is the Original Source Material, meaning the Japanese shows. That's something that they added in the Robotech adaptation.

My bad-- I mean the original rewrite of HG's show not the origional Japanese shows.

Ah, No... we're not the ones making that mistake. That'd be Harmony Gold's doing. Palladium took lots of liberties with the RPG to try and fix that, but even then there's no getting around the show's narrow focus.

Robotech is a very narrowly focused story, where the same handful of characters are the driving force behind literally everything of significance. The only "side stories" are those that tie directly into the main animated story in some fashion. With the sole exception of the Sentinels story arc, we basically do have a story where the ONLY events that matter are the ones we see on the screen. Do away with Rick Hunter, and EVERY MAJOR EVENT falls apart, for instance.

The setting is big. It's downright colossal... astrographically, anyway. In terms of what MATTERS to the story, it's a setting so small you could fit it in a matchbook without taking any matches out first. The only people who matter and drive events are the surviving Macross Saga characters (the Hunter family, the Sterling family, the Grant family, Dr. Lang), their family members (Dana, Maia, etc.) and a selection of close friends or trusted subordinates of those officers (Scott, Jack, Marcus, etc.). The only worlds that matter are Earth, Tirol, and, to a lesser extent, Optera.

You have a story that COULD be handled as a tiny slice of a broader setting, and a studio that actively decides not to do so in favor of relying on fan favorite characters to drive every event in the story.

A good example of a story that did this, and did it well was the Clone Wars CGI setting-- you had a HUGE number of characters, many of whom never even ineracted with other characters during their story arc or even at all. In many cases, the show had one main character off and then in another story arc, taking place at the same time (shown via communications) another major character was doing something completely different, but equally vital. It managed to convincingly create the feeling that this was a war involving thousands fo worlds, and millions of soldiers, so big that even the major characters weren't in a position to impact everything-- even though it didn't marginalize them.

The problem with your line of thinking is that both Scott and Marcus are vehemently xenophobic, as is General Leonard. The whole UEEF casually bandies about remarks about how aliens aren't trustworthy, which rather indicates they've gone Imperium of Terra and don't welcome aliens in among them.

Which paints a rather interesting view of their relationship with the Sentinals races. You could make a convincing argument that there's a reason none of them came along to liberate earth, which is that mankind is starting to look just as (un) trustworthy as the master's were. I mean, even if you ignore the Haydonite sabotage of the Neutron S Missiles, the commander launching them obviously expected that they would render the earth uninhabitable. If I were an alien race, that'd definitely make me do the political equivalent of backing away quickly while not making eye contact.

[Seto Kaiba]

The outcome of the story directly affects the outcome of the war.

True, but the threat of the war that was present isn't changed by any actions taken so it's impact on the story at the time is minimal.

Except, y'know, that literally everything in that story was only possible because of the alien threat...

A good example of a story that did this, and did it well was the Clone Wars CGI setting-- you had a HUGE number of characters, many of whom never even ineracted with other characters during their story arc or even at all. [...]

Now THAT is a big setting that actually FEELS big.

The problem with Robotech doing something like that is humanity's population is very small and predominantly military after the first Robotech War... so all of the vital decisions and what have you center around the double handful of Macross Saga characters who now make up the top brass of the military. Everything centers around them because they're the top dogs of the military, and humanity's space presence is just the military's expeditionary forces. Unless the Hunters will it, it doesn't happen. That's why Robotech is so narratively small... the number of humans ain't huge, and space isn't the open frontier is is in many other SF titles.

Which paints a rather interesting view of their relationship with the Sentinals races. You could make a convincing argument that there's a reason none of them came along to liberate earth, which is that mankind is starting to look just as (un) trustworthy as the master's were.

Oh, that's not a view we have to ascribe to ourselves... because the Prelude comic sticks that one in our faces with great vigor. You have, on the one hand, human soldiers vocally expressing their distrust and suspicion of aliens within earshot of the alien ambassadors on the Sentinels Council, and on the other you have Veidt straight-up saying that the Haydonites in the comic are upset/worried over humanity's indecent enthusiasm for unprecedented destructive potential (the neutron-s warheads) and want to destroy them before they can become the sequel to the Robotech Masters.

The movie plays it like the Haydonites are doing it "for teh evulz", but the comic makes it sound more like they're giving our boy Rick enough rope to hang himself with and were entirely unsurprised when his gut reaction was to tie a hangman's noose with it.

[mech798]

Oh, that's not a view we have to ascribe to ourselves... because the Prelude comic sticks that one in our faces with great vigor. You have, on the one hand, human soldiers vocally expressing their distrust and suspicion of aliens within earshot of the alien ambassadors on the Sentinels Council, and on the other you have Veidt straight-up saying that the Haydonites in the comic are upset/worried over humanity's indecent enthusiasm for unprecedented destructive potential (the neutron-s warheads) and want to destroy them before they can become the sequel to the Robotech Masters.

The movie plays it like the Haydonites are doing it "for teh evulz", but the comic makes it sound more like they're giving our boy Rick enough rope to hang himself with and were entirely unsurprised when his gut reaction was to tie a hangman's noose with it.

Yeah, the movie had absolute no reason for the Haydonites to betray the humans-- not a obscure reason, but literally no reason whatsoever. If they'd put in the fact that the Haydonites were concerned about Admiral "Make a BIG BOOM!" Hunter, you could have had a better reason.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, the movie had absolute no reason for the Haydonites to betray the humans-- not a obscure reason, but literally no reason whatsoever.

Remember, the only thing keeping Robotech going is direct sales to existing fans... they'd probably assumed that anyone watching the movie had already read the comic.

[Lt Gargoyle]

Yeah, the movie had absolute no reason for the Haydonites to betray the humans-- not a obscure reason, but literally no reason whatsoever.

Remember, the only thing keeping Robotech going is direct sales to existing fans... they'd probably assumed that anyone watching the movie had already read the comic.

Well if they came up with a good plot and made a new chapter worth watching along with the toys and games we could expand that fan base. But i do not see that happening with HG.

[ShadowLogan]

Except, y'know, that literally everything in that story was only possible because of the alien threat...

But how many of those involved new about the actual threat. The MB1 comic suggests while the SDF-1s alien origin was known, the military danger wasn't as commonly known.

Yeah, the movie had absolute no reason for the Haydonites to betray the humans-- not a obscure reason, but literally no reason whatsoever. If they'd put in the fact that the Haydonites were concerned about Admiral "Make a BIG BOOM!" Hunter, you could have had a better reason.

Well the movie was intended to launch a series which could have been where it was revealed. And actually it is hinted by the Invid that the Haydonites did not like PC users (even the Haydonite dialogue is clear on this). So the Haydnonites may have been planning to kill 2birds (Invid and human PC users) with 1 stone via the Blackhole bombs.

[Seto Kaiba]

But how many of those involved new about the actual threat.

After his meeting with Gloval... every principal character, why? It may have been classified at the time, but every one of the main characters knew from the start except Roy, who learned it shortly thereafter.

[Alrik Vas]

Hrm...ignore Shadow Chronicles you say? Make up my own story, you say? Well, don't mind of i do.

The Neutron-S missiles never fire. The UEEF is noobing it up though, and they're ABOUT TO...but the Regiss uses her near divine power to contact the humans in orbit, touches their minds and lets them see a bit of hers and then is like, "So...can i garden on your land, bro?" The humans are like, "Yes, but you can only have Australia." She says, "kthx!" and the war is over.

So the Haydonites are like..."Wow, glad we didn't have to play big brother to all those humans." And quietly their booby traps are phased out as new technology emerges.

Fast-forward 150 years.

Humans are starting to colonize worlds they're just starting to visit (and their relationships with the "local group" are still pretty strong). Humans are basically now the bridge between the Invid and everyone else. Having shared a planet with them for so long, whenever someone needs protoculture, they have to talk to the humans for the FoL (well, the good one anyway, if you like the RT novels). Of course, eventually, they encounter races that weren't associated with the Robotech Masters at all, have different technology and at first, they seem to like everyone's face pretty well.

Then i get less tired and can come up with more imaginative ideas...yeah, i'll come back to this later.

[mechachap]

Has the RPG ever tackled the Disciples of Zor? Even hinted at it in any of the books?

I think they would've been a worthy foe over the Haydonites.

[Seto Kaiba]

Has the RPG ever tackled the Disciples of Zor? Even hinted at it in any of the books?

Nope! They're barely mentioned in the series.

I think they would've been a worthy foe over the Haydonites.

Probably would've just been the Robotech Masters part deux, honestly...

[jaymz]

I think they would've been a worthy foe over the Haydonites.

Probably would've just been the Robotech Masters part deux, honestly...

That's why I effectively made the Marduk the DoZ......aesthetically it works and can fit as such.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's why I effectively made the Marduk the DoZ......aesthetically it works and can fit as such.

Probably an ironic choice, since the more I think on it the more it seems like the Haydonites have been using the same principles in their technology that Macross does in OTM. A great many overtechnologies rely upon dimension-shifting...

[jaymz]

That's why I effectively made the Marduk the DoZ......aesthetically it works and can fit as such.

Probably an ironic choice, since the more I think on it the more it seems like the Haydonites have been using the same principles in their technology that Macross does in OTM. A great many overtechnologies rely upon dimension-shifting...

Likely so that HG can introduc such "ideas" without stepping on BWs toes