Thoughts on Brodkil and damage output

[Noon]

Not finding the Brodkil base damage to be terribly much a threat when I use them at the moment - the players, while it takes them awhile to whittle them down, seem to be pretty certain of whittling them down. Which just turns combat into a grind that has a predictable ending and so it takes too long.

I'm thinking of giving them amulets that after one round let the brodkil cast firebolt each attack, for one melee. I know I could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players and it doesn't quite match theme - the brodkil generally use their toughness to get through life and spend their loot on pleasure, not tactically apt things. Anyway, the amulet will burn out after that but is maybe worth 100 credits for materials if sold, so the players get some loot. Also the brodkil has to give up about 30 MDC of it's own to gain this power. With another power I gave them that makes them give up 80 MDC, that brings them down to 140 MDC, which is probably about the point the players were getting a little tired of the battle.

Anyway, the amulet makes it scary that if you can't beat them in one melee their damage boosts up - and it also lets their natural fist attacks to still get used rather than replaced by other weapons.

Anyone else find that supernatural creatures barely put a scratch into players (well, the ones that are iconic of rifts, but only do 1D6 to 2D6 MD)? Especially if the player has armour of ithan?

[MaxxSterling]

Yeah, I feel many of the races are underpowered against certain occ/rcc.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Actually, the fluff makes it clear that Brodkil love guns and the bigger the better. the entire reason they get bionics is they know technology makes them better. Using just straight brodkil and giving them more magic is kinda counter to their general purpose. they are magically weak so they turn to technology.

[Noon]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

[Nightmask]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

This might come as a shocking revelation but sometimes people STEAL stuff, especially people who're generally violent and have a 'might makes right' philosophy. Seeing as people also tend to steal stuff that they like and cost being quite irrelevant since again they're stealing it instead of buying it then one can really expect something like a Brodkil to be carrying around some nice high-tech weapons (and handing them magic talismans as if somehow THOSE are free and don't cost anything is on the ridiculous end and seems more of a 'well I think they should be limited to magical stuff so I think they'd get that free unlike tech stuff which I think supernatural creatures wouldn't use' mindset rather than actually acknowledging the books regarding them).

So I really doubt it's about Kevin 'ignoring parts of his fantasy world like prices', because prices only matter to people who're buying things, prices don't mean anything at all if you're a bandit or have a thing for stealing stuff. The brodkil with the high tech weapons simply took them, or scavenged them, or heck maybe they were employed by someone who supplied them with the weapons and they kept them. There's more than one way for someone to reasonably have something than by buying it, and there are a LOT of people running around in a setting like Rifts or Palladium Fantasy who didn't pay anything for what they've got and acquired it some other way.

[Noon]

If people who have 3D6 MD weapons in any number use a pointy stick (rather than multiple guards using said weapons) to fend off thieves, I'd agree.

And something like the original talisman spell has no material cost. Not sure what the base cost of a laser rifle is.

Further the primary issue isn't about arguing who's vision of the setting is just super the most truest of true - the primary issue is not enough damage output to make the outcome of combat uncertain. If all the setting talk ignores that, then the setting talk isn't any use to what I began talking about to begin with.

[eliakon]

I suspect that weaponry will be like the Real World in warzones. You see LOTS of people running around with thousand dollar assault rifles, with machine guns, grenades, and RPGs everywhere. You don't see lots of tanks or artillery (power armor and robots) but they do show up. So yah, bandits/boadkil/what ever will probably have basic MD weapons (which can up the damage out put considerably) probably a few grenades (which can do TONS of damage, AND are one use) and if they are not well maintained....well those salvaged rifles might not sell for much.....
just my two cents worth

[glitterboy2098]

and note.. many of the ones big into bionics are likely to be the worshipers of the Angel of Death of mindwerks. they wouldn't be paying for their augmentation.. those are 'gifts from their goddess' in exchange for their devotion.

[Alrik Vas]

I resolve this problem by having Brodkil serve others...like the above mentioned Angel of Death. They'll pick up weapons from whatever they manage to kill, or they'll receive gifts from their employer (lord and master...whatever)...but i also think that brodkil do love to beat the living crap out of things.

I have some that literally wield a giant hunk of sharpened "mega steel", some have giant warhammers, others have plasma flamethrowers, it really depends on where they are in the pecking order. Regardless of that, i let melee damage do weapon + SN str + PS bonus. Don't get hit by a SN creature in melee. It's bad.

[Killer Cyborg]

Actually, the fluff makes it clear that Brodkil love guns and the bigger the better. the entire reason they get bionics is they know technology makes them better. Using just straight brodkil and giving them more magic is kinda counter to their general purpose. they are magically weak so they turn to technology.

Agreed.
If the problem is loot, just give the brodkil some predator-style self-destruct devices that eliminate possible treasure, or come up with another means to combat the issue directly.

[Noon]

I suspect that weaponry will be like the Real World in warzones. You see LOTS of people running around with thousand dollar assault rifles, with machine guns, grenades, and RPGs everywhere. You don't see lots of tanks or artillery (power armor and robots) but they do show up. So yah, bandits/boadkil/what ever will probably have basic MD weapons (which can up the damage out put considerably) probably a few grenades (which can do TONS of damage, AND are one use) and if they are not well maintained....well those salvaged rifles might not sell for much.....
just my two cents worth

Most rifles I see on the news are older than the person wielding them. And the bullets are pretty cheap. The RPG's - well, those groups love showing off to the media and the media loves an RPG shot. Thus I suspect making RPG's seem more plentiful than they are.

I suspect if there was magic in our world and all it took was zero material cost and just PPE to make a magic weapon, you'd see alot of those rifles replaced with a magic weapon, if not all of them.

I find the underlying economics to be relevant. Forgive my mixing of RL and fantasy in the example.

i let melee damage do weapon + SN str + PS bonus.

Ouch!!

[Nightmask]

I suspect that weaponry will be like the Real World in warzones. You see LOTS of people running around with thousand dollar assault rifles, with machine guns, grenades, and RPGs everywhere. You don't see lots of tanks or artillery (power armor and robots) but they do show up. So yah, bandits/boadkil/what ever will probably have basic MD weapons (which can up the damage out put considerably) probably a few grenades (which can do TONS of damage, AND are one use) and if they are not well maintained....well those salvaged rifles might not sell for much.....
just my two cents worth

Most rifles I see on the news are older than the person wielding them. And the bullets are pretty cheap. The RPG's - well, those groups love showing off to the media and the media loves an RPG shot. Thus I suspect making RPG's seem more plentiful than they are.

I suspect if there was magic in our world and all it took was zero material cost and just PPE to make a magic weapon, you'd see alot of those rifles replaced with a magic weapon, if not all of them.

I find the underlying economics to be relevant. Forgive my mixing of RL and fantasy in the example.

Except economics isn't relevant, certainly not to the degree you're rating it at. There are certainly costs to producing magic items, you aren't going to produce a magic weapon without an actual weapon to make magic after all. The ease for the production of non-magic items relative to magic-items (since you can't currently factory produce any magic items) also weighs in their favor. Once you've got the factory going it turns out finished goods for little more than the raw materials, the mage though has to spend time individually making each magic item he produces and most aren't likely to be interested in being treated like factories. Plus the number of mages able to do such is lower than the number of people who can set up these factories and maintain them.

Also as has been pointed out Brodkil barely rate as magical/supernatural creatures and have no more reason to lean towards using magic stuff than the average human, instead they're more likely to lean towards technology to make up for that magical lack.

Really, if magic items had no costs and were so easy to produce in setting then technology wouldn't be anywhere near as common as it is but it is.

[Giant2005]

Have your Brodkil use consumables like Grenades and such. A Flashbang Grenade is enough to make any battle dangerous as hell. If not, give them simple but powerful weapons like nets and such and if you want them fighting with their fists, stick a Neural Duster on each of those fists and see how the party react to that.

[Dog_O_War]

If people who have 3D6 MD weapons in any number use a pointy stick (rather than multiple guards using said weapons) to fend off thieves, I'd agree.

And something like the original talisman spell has no material cost. Not sure what the base cost of a laser rifle is.

Further the primary issue isn't about arguing who's vision of the setting is just super the most truest of true - the primary issue is not enough damage output to make the outcome of combat uncertain. If all the setting talk ignores that, then the setting talk isn't any use to what I began talking about to begin with.

Whoa, let me stop you there.

If you wanted combat uncertainty, then you will actually have to do some work here. You cannot expect that Brodkil will provide that uncertainty no matter what the combination of OCCs the party is, especially when you're providing only stock Brodkil because you "could give them guns but I don't want the extra loot for the players".

Yes, Brodkil may be straight-forward thugs, but the thing of it is that thugs often gather around a leader, and that leader is the one who is often providing equipment. As someone else pointed out, a military is an excellent example of a group of thugs that are running around in thousands of dollars worth of gear that they didn't buy. So not every Brodkil will be armed with the latest equipment, the point being made is that you cannot expect otherwise naked thugs to provide the challenge you're seeking when they're written as favoring gear and clearly fix the problem you have when fitted with said gear.

[Noon]

Really, if magic items had no costs and were so easy to produce in setting then technology wouldn't be anywhere near as common as it is but it is.

I dislike taking a conclusion like that then changing stuff to fit the conclusion (like adding a price to the talisman creation spell, which has no material cost).

I really don't dig "there's alot of tech around - now make up reasons why that's the case, gamer! It's just IS how it is, gamer! But were not going to say why and although it's not actually interesting to make up reasons why that's the case, you gotta (while the book makes up reasons as to the opposite - ie, high costs for tech weapons)"

I mean, if the books told me people are dying of thirst but then the books tell me ten meters away is a font of clean water, I don't just take it that "well, the book told me they are dying of thirst, so they gotta keep doing that!". If anyone else would, okay, what-evs.

When the books show me high price tech weapons/weapons people would guard (using the very same weapons!) but also that various mages could indeed make magic weapons (like the talisman) on a lazy weekend for nix, I'm not inclined to just go with the dying of thirst option.

They've faced very few tech weapons in my wilderness campaign, barring their run ins with the CS.

[flatline]

They've faced very few tech weapons in my wilderness campaign, barring their run ins with the CS.

How do those run-ins typically play out?

--flatline

[Noon]

They've faced very few tech weapons in my wilderness campaign, barring their run ins with the CS.

How do those run-ins typically play out?

--flatline

How in what regard? Generally they were far lower MDC opponents (like dog boys in dog boy armour) with weapons like vibro blades, which are equal or stronger than brodkil attacks and relative to their MDC, far higher damage output when compared with MDC total.

When it became clear the PC's were going to win, it didn't take very long in RL before they did win, in such cases.

[Alrik Vas]

Then flesh out your setting. There should be no such thing as a true random encounter. I mean, it may seem random, but a CS patrol was dispatched from a base that has to be in certain proximity or the larger camp of a long-range patrol. Bandits have camps as well, or maybe even a small village where they've hoarded the items they've killed for. Brodkil would be no different, and the bandits might even serve them because they're so much bigger and stronger.

I guess i'm not seeing the issue you're really having. If it's just their damage, then raise their damage or use a different enemy that could be found in the region they're in. Or give them different challenges than combat. Forest fires suck in wilderness games, i hear.

[jedi078]

If your worried about the players getting extra loot in the form of the weapons used by the Brodkil you can always have said weapons destroyed during the fight.

[Noon]

I guess i'm not seeing the issue you're really having. If it's just their damage, then raise their damage or use a different enemy that could be found in the region they're in. Or give them different challenges than combat. Forest fires suck in wilderness games, i hear.

I've already proposed one solution to my problem in the first post. The threads more a discussion of having to cook up solutions for such things if 1D6/1D8/2D6 isn't really cutting it in terms of making the outcome of combat uncertain against the PCs.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

And why would a magic talismen that shoots firebolts every other turn be cheeper/more readialy avialable (to my knowlage no place on rifts earth makes them in any kind of quantity) as opposed to laser guns (Which are mass produced in many areas)

Basically, magic amulets that shoot 4d6 firebolts are even rarer than laser guns, so why would magic amulets be easier for brodkil to get?

[eliakon]

I guess i'm not seeing the issue you're really having. If it's just their damage, then raise their damage or use a different enemy that could be found in the region they're in. Or give them different challenges than combat. Forest fires suck in wilderness games, i hear.

I've already proposed one solution to my problem in the first post. The threads more a discussion of having to cook up solutions for such things if 1D6/1D8/2D6 isn't really cutting it in terms of making the outcome of combat uncertain against the PCs.

1) my goto solution would be grenades
2)guns that use ammo also are great (gyrojets, machineguns, grenade launchers, naruni) since getting the 'free' (I hesitate to use that word for something you have to fight for) weapon just means you get the privilege of buying ammo for it.
3) energy weapons that turn out to use eclips can drive players crazy if its not the same sort of eclip the party uses. (the books talk in several places that some weapons are incompatible. It can make your party leery of 'gunz is kewl' if they have to carry 7 different types of e-clips...and rechargers
4) Xictic style melee weapons are also great nothing like 4d6+SN punch damage to ruin your day

[Deadboy Dakka]

As to a way that Brodkil get MDC tech, I have a two word answer; Northern Gun. The reason why tech is so common (in industrial areas and such, like among the brodkil BANDITS) is because of the concept of the assembly line. And lets face it, NG moves FREIGHTERS of weapons, and power armor, and robots around. Then they get on hover trains, and then they get to Mercs and such who get eaten by Brodkil, who then pick up the guns and such. And as to controlling the amount of loot the party gets, the weight of said gear adds up, and the places that can afford to pay for said gear with credit close to the list price, will have enough of said weapons that the Players will be lucky to get 20% of said cost, and armor can get expensive to repair. In games I run, I tend to balance out any loot the party gets, with the fact that they need to repair the armor and maintain the ammo cost. As Tennessee Jack said, farmers are the ones with the real money.

[Noon]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

And why would a magic talismen that shoots firebolts every other turn be cheeper/more readialy avialable (to my knowlage no place on rifts earth makes them in any kind of quantity) as opposed to laser guns (Which are mass produced in many areas)

Basically, magic amulets that shoot 4d6 firebolts are even rarer than laser guns, so why would magic amulets be easier for brodkil to get?

Okay, I'll bite.

I've never actually seen the requirements for making a laser rifle - so looking past the listed book price, it can be as easy to make one as the DM, at her or his whim, sees fit.

So you've made it as easy to make one in your setting as would best prove your point.

As I said above with the 'people dying of thirst by a clean fountain is ten meters away', it really doesn't matter if the books don't abound with examples of talisman use like it wouldn't matter if the example text had no examples of the people walking over and drinking the water instead of dying of thirst. One doesn't necessarily need something spelled out in order to extrapolate the event occuring.

In the end your basically getting backed up by asking why should what I think change the way you play your game at your table, as you think laser rifles are pretty much everywhere for pick up, ala a game of FPS deathmatch (okay, I can't resist making a little fun of it...)

When I'm not interested in dictating that.

[Noon]

1) my goto solution would be grenades

Most of the grenades I'm aware of top out at 3D6 MD, which is a bit of a upgrade but not super much. Do you know of a stronger grenade?

[Giant2005]

1) my goto solution would be grenades

Most of the grenades I'm aware of top out at 3D6 MD, which is a bit of a upgrade but not super much. Do you know of a stronger grenade?

Plasma Grenades or NE-10G High Explosive Grenades do double that.
With W.P. Targeting, you can also throw two at a time.

[Nightmask]

I think you're kind of missing some points, as for example why you think magical items particularly items that require a high-level spell to create (talismans) would be so common that the average bandit would have them even though those who can create them are far less in number than the places that can create high-tech items and that do so in mass quantities since factories turn out a lot of a product (like guns) quickly and efficiently and mages currently can't even remotely reach that level of production that they could reasonably compete numbers-wise.

There's also the question regarding the aversion to the PC potentially acquiring some extra guns or weapons from the defeated Brodkil. Weapons break, reselling stuff rarely approaches anywhere close to what it costs to buy them new, and if you're using current Rifts setting the world simply isn't in a terrible dark age like right after the Cataclysm but instead having recovered enough for a number of high-tech nations to have developed as well as dozens if not hundreds of weapons manufacturers given the demand for such items. Plus unlike those 'secretive' mages all those weapons manufacturers and the Black Market are eager to make money on selling weapons to whoever can afford them and can easily end up in the hands of bandits since that's what bandits do: they acquire stuff that they otherwise couldn't have if they had to pay for it.

[eliakon]

1) my goto solution would be grenades

Most of the grenades I'm aware of top out at 3D6 MD, which is a bit of a upgrade but not super much. Do you know of a stronger grenade?

Plasma Grenades or NE-10G High Explosive Grenades do double that.
With W.P. Targeting, you can also throw two at a time.

And don't forget that AOE effects are much harder to avoid, which can deal with the annoying issues of +20 parries, and +11 autododges (I exaggerate...but not my much:P)
And if your not in sealed environmental armor a single gas grenade is really going to ruin you day
flash bang/stun grenades are also unpleasant to be on the receiving end of.
TW grenades/Goblin grenades are the best (or worst, depending on if your on the throwing or receiving end) of both worlds
there is also the SDC incendiary grenade....that does damage in an area some 100' in radius (very VERY nasty if it has been charmed al la the Nightbane charm weapon spell though that is again going to magic)
another interesting source of 'grenades' is palladium fantasy, the alchemists have all sorts of one shot magic in the various books. Most of which a party would probably rather not be on the receiving end of.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

And why would a magic talismen that shoots firebolts every other turn be cheeper/more readialy avialable (to my knowlage no place on rifts earth makes them in any kind of quantity) as opposed to laser guns (Which are mass produced in many areas). You could say there is in your game, which is fine, but then you have to establish that for the other people on the thread.

Basically, magic amulets that shoot 4d6 firebolts are even rarer than laser guns, so why would magic amulets be easier for brodkil to get?

Okay, I'll bite.

I've never actually seen the requirements for making a laser rifle - so looking past the listed book price, it can be as easy to make one as the DM, at her or his whim, sees fit.

So you've made it as easy to make one in your setting as would best prove your point.

Err, I don't see how this address's my point. I can point to littearlly a dozen manufactuers in north america that mass produce laser rifles in cannon. I cann't point to a single place that mass produces fire bolt talismens. I said nothing about how easy or hard it is to make a laser rifle, I said that they are made, by many manfacuters, in stated large quantities. How difficult it is for them to do this is not addressed, nor do I see how it's relevent to the discussion.

As I said above with the 'people dying of thirst by a clean fountain is ten meters away', it really doesn't matter if the books don't abound with examples of talisman use like it wouldn't matter if the example text had no examples of the people walking over and drinking the water instead of dying of thirst. One doesn't necessarily need something spelled out in order to extrapolate the event occuring.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. a firebolt talismen is a high level spell, costs a lot, and is good for exactly three shots before it's empty. If you are positing a different kind of talismen with more charges, then you are squarely in houserules territory where, again, they can be however easy or hard to make as you want.

In the end your basically getting backed up by asking why should what I think change the way you play your game at your table, as you think laser rifles are pretty much everywhere for pick up, ala a game of FPS deathmatch (okay, I can't resist making a little fun of it...)

Excuse me, where did I make any claim to the effect they are everywhere to pick up like a deathmatch? I said that brodkil are stated to love them and use them extensivly and perfer technology weapons to magic. that is cannon. how that translates to me saying "You want laser guns everywhere" is completely baffling to me as I never said anything of the sort. I said that laser guns would be more common in north america (with several large manufactuers), than fireball talismens (Which have rediculously small charges of three shots and no known mass producer). How you got the idea I want common loot drops is honestly beyond me sinse I didn't say or mean that.

Honestly, why are you responding so hostilly. You complained that brodkil wern't doing enough damage to threaten the party. I pointed out the book says they like to use technological weapons to make up for that. That's not not being helpful, that's giving you the cannon answer. if you don't like it, that's up to you, but there's no need to get hostile with me and insuniate I like Rifts to play like FPS deathmataches, especially sinse I hate FPS deathmatches and don't like a ton of loot in my games.

[Noon]

1) my goto solution would be grenades

Most of the grenades I'm aware of top out at 3D6 MD, which is a bit of a upgrade but not super much. Do you know of a stronger grenade?

Plasma Grenades or NE-10G High Explosive Grenades do double that.

Oh yeah, I'd remembered it wrong and thought it was the plasma that does 3D6, but from the original book plasma does 5D6.

It's one method, though at 350 credits each I'd imagine them only affording one or two each.

With W.P. Targeting, you can also throw two at a time.

I don't think it quite works that way!

[Noon]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

[eliakon]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

Isn't 'ease of production' the whole point of groups like Wilks (A company that does nothing BUT make lasers), Northern Gun ("The largest manufacturers of non-Coalition arms on the continent), Chipwell, Iron Heart arms (former), Triax, Cyberworks/Titan arms, Golden Age weaponsmiths, UTI, Wellington Industries, Bandito Arm...... the weapons factories in such minor states as Kingsdale (can make weapons and eclips), Los Almos, Newtown, Merctown, Arnzo....heck most every described city with a population over 5-10 thousand people in any book seems to be able to make energy weapons. The only mass produced magic items I could find are Tolkeen, Stormspire, Arnzo, and Atlantis.

[Noon]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

And why would a magic talismen that shoots firebolts every other turn be cheeper/more readialy avialable (to my knowlage no place on rifts earth makes them in any kind of quantity) as opposed to laser guns (Which are mass produced in many areas). You could say there is in your game, which is fine, but then you have to establish that for the other people on the thread.

Basically, magic amulets that shoot 4d6 firebolts are even rarer than laser guns, so why would magic amulets be easier for brodkil to get?

Okay, I'll bite.

I've never actually seen the requirements for making a laser rifle - so looking past the listed book price, it can be as easy to make one as the DM, at her or his whim, sees fit.

So you've made it as easy to make one in your setting as would best prove your point.

Err, I don't see how this address's my point. I can point to littearlly a dozen manufactuers in north america that mass produce laser rifles in cannon. I cann't point to a single place that mass produces fire bolt talismens. I said nothing about how easy or hard it is to make a laser rifle, I said that they are made, by many manfacuters, in stated large quantities. How difficult it is for them to do this is not addressed, nor do I see how it's relevent to the discussion.

I charitably assumed you were saying mass production means cheap weapons.

Otherwise the mass production point seems entirely irrelevant.

I'm focused on price as to who can gain access to what. Something being mass produced doesn't affect whether it costs alot to buy (and before you get into mass production savings, unless you're about to reduce the prices of laser rifles in the books, it's a moot point)

As I said above with the 'people dying of thirst by a clean fountain is ten meters away', it really doesn't matter if the books don't abound with examples of talisman use like it wouldn't matter if the example text had no examples of the people walking over and drinking the water instead of dying of thirst. One doesn't necessarily need something spelled out in order to extrapolate the event occuring.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. a firebolt talismen is a high level spell, costs a lot, and is good for exactly three shots before it's empty. If you are positing a different kind of talismen with more charges, then you are squarely in houserules territory where, again, they can be however easy or hard to make as you want.

Well for one, crazy idea: You get more than three shots if you just glue two or more talismans together. That might be a house rule, or I was lazy and described one talisman when it's a couple of them stuck together with gum (or some cooler type of glue if desired)

Further I don't know where you're going with your houserules rant.

In the end your basically getting backed up by asking why should what I think change the way you play your game at your table, as you think laser rifles are pretty much everywhere for pick up, ala a game of FPS deathmatch (okay, I can't resist making a little fun of it...)

Excuse me, where did I make any claim to the effect they are everywhere to pick up like a deathmatch? I said that brodkil are stated to love them and use them extensivly and perfer technology weapons to magic. that is cannon. how that translates to me saying "You want laser guns everywhere" is completely baffling to me as I never said anything of the sort. I said that laser guns would be more common in north america (with several large manufactuers), than fireball talismens (Which have rediculously small charges of three shots and no known mass producer). How you got the idea I want common loot drops is honestly beyond me sinse I didn't say or mean that.

Honestly, why are you responding so hostilly.

I explicitly said I'm 'making a little fun'

You just take yourself too seriously - any time anyone even teases your ideas a teeny tiny bit (even saying they are doing that so as to show it's just a bit of fun and not more than that), it comes off as hostile to you because your ideas about this made up imagination game are so dang serious!

It wasn't hostile. It just questioned your firmly held beliefs. There's no need to monsterise the other people so as to hold onto beliefs.

[Noon]

Isn't 'ease of production' the whole point of groups like Wilks (A company that does nothing BUT make lasers), Northern Gun ("The largest manufacturers of non-Coalition arms on the continent), Chipwell, Iron Heart arms (former), Triax, Cyberworks/Titan arms, Golden Age weaponsmiths, UTI, Wellington Industries, Bandito Arm...... the weapons factories in such minor states as Kingsdale (can make weapons and eclips), Los Almos, Newtown, Merctown, Arnzo....heck most every described city with a population over 5-10 thousand people in any book seems to be able to make energy weapons. The only mass produced magic items I could find are Tolkeen, Stormspire, Arnzo, and Atlantis.

Unless you're gunna lower the book price, this focus on mass production does not matter.

If Lamborginis were mass produced but the price did not lower, then you aren't going to find everyone can easily access/afford a Lamborgini (and that includes dupes affording weapons so someone else can steal from them).

This is why I raised the dying of thirst people near a water fountain.

If everyones making laser rifles so very much, why doesn't the price come down/why don't the people walk over and drink at the fountain?

If you're focused on cannon though, I guess the people keep dying of thirst and the prices of rifles stay the same even though everyones making them and the brodkil still get the rifles even though they can't afford them.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I honestly don't play in a game world where if someone loves something, they just *poof* get it. If laser rifles were two credits each, I'd agree they'd use laser rifles. As is, it's where Kevin goes off in his own 'npc's who really like X have X!!' fantasy world that carefully ignores other parts of his fantasy world, like prices.

And why would a magic talismen that shoots firebolts every other turn be cheeper/more readialy avialable (to my knowlage no place on rifts earth makes them in any kind of quantity) as opposed to laser guns (Which are mass produced in many areas). You could say there is in your game, which is fine, but then you have to establish that for the other people on the thread.

Basically, magic amulets that shoot 4d6 firebolts are even rarer than laser guns, so why would magic amulets be easier for brodkil to get?

Okay, I'll bite.

I've never actually seen the requirements for making a laser rifle - so looking past the listed book price, it can be as easy to make one as the DM, at her or his whim, sees fit.

So you've made it as easy to make one in your setting as would best prove your point.

Err, I don't see how this address's my point. I can point to littearlly a dozen manufactuers in north america that mass produce laser rifles in cannon. I cann't point to a single place that mass produces fire bolt talismens. I said nothing about how easy or hard it is to make a laser rifle, I said that they are made, by many manfacuters, in stated large quantities. How difficult it is for them to do this is not addressed, nor do I see how it's relevent to the discussion.

I charitably assumed you were saying mass production means cheap weapons.

Otherwise the mass production point seems entirely irrelevant.

I'm focused on price as to who can gain access to what. Something being mass produced doesn't affect whether it costs alot to buy (and before you get into mass production savings, unless you're about to reduce the prices of laser rifles in the books, it's a moot point)

As I said above with the 'people dying of thirst by a clean fountain is ten meters away', it really doesn't matter if the books don't abound with examples of talisman use like it wouldn't matter if the example text had no examples of the people walking over and drinking the water instead of dying of thirst. One doesn't necessarily need something spelled out in order to extrapolate the event occuring.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. a firebolt talismen is a high level spell, costs a lot, and is good for exactly three shots before it's empty. If you are positing a different kind of talismen with more charges, then you are squarely in houserules territory where, again, they can be however easy or hard to make as you want.

Well for one, crazy idea: You get more than three shots if you just glue two or more talismans together. That might be a house rule, or I was lazy and described one talisman when it's a couple of them stuck together with gum (or some cooler type of glue if desired)

Further I don't know where you're going with your houserules rant.

In the end your basically getting backed up by asking why should what I think change the way you play your game at your table, as you think laser rifles are pretty much everywhere for pick up, ala a game of FPS deathmatch (okay, I can't resist making a little fun of it...)

Excuse me, where did I make any claim to the effect they are everywhere to pick up like a deathmatch? I said that brodkil are stated to love them and use them extensivly and perfer technology weapons to magic. that is cannon. how that translates to me saying "You want laser guns everywhere" is completely baffling to me as I never said anything of the sort. I said that laser guns would be more common in north america (with several large manufactuers), than fireball talismens (Which have rediculously small charges of three shots and no known mass producer). How you got the idea I want common loot drops is honestly beyond me sinse I didn't say or mean that.

Honestly, why are you responding so hostilly.

I explicitly said I'm 'making a little fun'

You just take yourself too seriously - any time anyone even teases your ideas a teeny tiny bit (even saying they are doing that so as to show it's just a bit of fun and not more than that), it comes off as hostile to you because your ideas about this made up imagination game are so dang serious!

It wasn't hostile. It just questioned your firmly held beliefs. There's no need to monsterise the other people so as to hold onto beliefs.

Actually, you were teasing beleifs I don't actually hold, which is why I was frustrated. I never said anything to monsterize you, but if your going to poke fun at someone's beleifs, try to poke fun at what they actually beleive.

Also, you still havn't answered any of the questions i've raised. It's fine to ask me to question my beleifs, but it's only fair if you also are willing to examine yours. The reason I was frustrated wasn't that you were poking fun at my beleifs, it's that you were poking fun at beleifs I don't actually hold, rather it looks like you took from my initial posts that I thought laser rifles were readiably avialable everywhere and have been using that assumption to interpret my other statements, but in fact, I am firmly of the opinion that laser guns should be rare in Rifts.

I just think Brodkil are dispreportionatly likely to get a hold of them.

[eliakon]

Isn't 'ease of production' the whole point of groups like Wilks (A company that does nothing BUT make lasers), Northern Gun ("The largest manufacturers of non-Coalition arms on the continent), Chipwell, Iron Heart arms (former), Triax, Cyberworks/Titan arms, Golden Age weaponsmiths, UTI, Wellington Industries, Bandito Arm...... the weapons factories in such minor states as Kingsdale (can make weapons and eclips), Los Almos, Newtown, Merctown, Arnzo....heck most every described city with a population over 5-10 thousand people in any book seems to be able to make energy weapons. The only mass produced magic items I could find are Tolkeen, Stormspire, Arnzo, and Atlantis.

Unless you're gunna lower the book price, this focus on mass production does not matter.

If Lamborginis were mass produced but the price did not lower, then you aren't going to find everyone can easily access/afford a Lamborgini (and that includes dupes affording weapons so someone else can steal from them).

This is why I raised the dying of thirst people near a water fountain.

If everyones making laser rifles so very much, why doesn't the price come down/why don't the people walk over and drink at the fountain?

If you're focused on cannon though, I guess the people keep dying of thirst and the prices of rifles stay the same even though everyones making them and the brodkil still get the rifles even though they can't afford them.

So how much does your talisman cost? Who is providing these talismans?

A cheap laser cost ~8k, that's a chunk of change, though not terribly expensive. You can outfit a solder pretty well for 10k(weapon, some eclips, some grenades). And that's if your buying all new. If your brodkill are scavenging weapons from kills they don't pay for them. (as a side note to your broadkill have cybernetics like is mentioned in the book? If so then isn't that more expensive than weapons, if not then what is the reasoning on removing part of the write up?) Yah you can look at the 'but its expensive so must be rare' or you can look at the 'even vagabonds and city rats start with energy weapons, why not brodkil'

[flatline]

What equipment can you give a soldier with a 10k budget?

[Nightmask]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

No, you didn't fix anything because there was nothing wrong about my post in the first place (and that 'fixed your post' stuff is irritating and insulting). I invented no evidence because the evidence is quite clear in the books there are factories and businesses small and large scattered around producing high-tech items particularly weapons in mass quantities (heck we've entire BOOKS dedicated to cataloging the volumes of items around and where they're manufactured).

The CS alone has produced millions of SAMAS (just the ones they haven't had stolen by mercenaries number in the millions), along with millions of skelebots, millions of railguns, and energy weapons, and so on. The dead zone between the CS and Tolkeen is literally littered with grave yards filled with technology which includes a lot of weapons and the like. Whether you knock off a little or a lot of the cost for weapons as the production cost all those other well-known manufacturing groups like Northern Gun (as well as the flash-in-the-pan sorts mentioned in the Game-Master's Guide) are producing large numbers of weapons because they're a business, they aren't in it to produce a few hundred weapons or a few thousand they produce and sell on a scope that they're recognized by people in North America for their product and they've been producing for decades if not longer and there are more and more weapons accumulating as the years go along (because weapons aren't bio-degradable and there's no way they're all being destroyed every year).

So while you may rule that all those weapons manufacturers aren't producing anything and nobody is buying their products in your game that's simply not what is clearly shown in the books to be true.

[eliakon]

What equipment can you give a soldier with a 10k budget?

okay, my bad. I should have said 20k (which will buy you a nice wilks laser rifle, a couple of e-clips, and a couple grenades)

Though it should be noted here that a vagabond starts with a suit of MDC armor (the cheapest costs tens of thousands) and a weapon, and a clip...

[eliakon]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

No, you didn't fix anything because there was nothing wrong about my post in the first place (and that 'fixed your post' stuff is irritating and insulting). I invented no evidence because the evidence is quite clear in the books there are factories and businesses small and large scattered around producing high-tech items particularly weapons in mass quantities (heck we've entire BOOKS dedicated to cataloging the volumes of items around and where they're manufactured).

The CS alone has produced millions of SAMAS (just the ones they haven't had stolen by mercenaries number in the millions), along with millions of skelebots, millions of railguns, and energy weapons, and so on. The dead zone between the CS and Tolkeen is literally littered with grave yards filled with technology which includes a lot of weapons and the like. Whether you knock off a little or a lot of the cost for weapons as the production cost all those other well-known manufacturing groups like Northern Gun (as well as the flash-in-the-pan sorts mentioned in the Game-Master's Guide) are producing large numbers of weapons because they're a business, they aren't in it to produce a few hundred weapons or a few thousand they produce and sell on a scope that they're recognized by people in North America for their product and they've been producing for decades if not longer and there are more and more weapons accumulating as the years go along (because weapons aren't bio-degradable and there's no way they're all being destroyed every year).

So while you may rule that all those weapons manufacturers aren't producing anything and nobody is buying their products in your game that's simply not what is clearly shown in the books to be true.

Ohhh, scavenging skelebot graveyards! lots of nifty rifles there (millions of them infact)

[Nightmask]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

No, you didn't fix anything because there was nothing wrong about my post in the first place (and that 'fixed your post' stuff is irritating and insulting). I invented no evidence because the evidence is quite clear in the books there are factories and businesses small and large scattered around producing high-tech items particularly weapons in mass quantities (heck we've entire BOOKS dedicated to cataloging the volumes of items around and where they're manufactured).

The CS alone has produced millions of SAMAS (just the ones they haven't had stolen by mercenaries number in the millions), along with millions of skelebots, millions of railguns, and energy weapons, and so on. The dead zone between the CS and Tolkeen is literally littered with grave yards filled with technology which includes a lot of weapons and the like. Whether you knock off a little or a lot of the cost for weapons as the production cost all those other well-known manufacturing groups like Northern Gun (as well as the flash-in-the-pan sorts mentioned in the Game-Master's Guide) are producing large numbers of weapons because they're a business, they aren't in it to produce a few hundred weapons or a few thousand they produce and sell on a scope that they're recognized by people in North America for their product and they've been producing for decades if not longer and there are more and more weapons accumulating as the years go along (because weapons aren't bio-degradable and there's no way they're all being destroyed every year).

So while you may rule that all those weapons manufacturers aren't producing anything and nobody is buying their products in your game that's simply not what is clearly shown in the books to be true.

Ohhh, scavenging skelebot graveyards! lots of nifty rifles there (millions of them infact)

Yes, while they're designed for direct plug-in to the Skelebot they're easily modded back to using e-clips and even if just 1% of them survived that's tens of thousands of them but certainly many more than that and plenty of material for a competent tech-sort to repair damaged ones on those fields to make them into functional weapons again. Battlefields like that are certain to end up scavenged and the salvageable material put to use by anyone who has the capacity to do so.

[Noon]

Also, you still havn't answered any of the questions i've raised.

By your measure I haven't, okay.

I just think Brodkil are dispreportionatly likely to get a hold of them.

No, I think your solution to my problem was that the Brodkil would have laser rifles.

That's not disproportionately likely.

That's 100%.

[Nightmask]

Also, you still havn't answered any of the questions i've raised.

By your measure I haven't, okay.

I just think Brodkil are dispreportionatly likely to get a hold of them.

No, I think your solution to my problem was that the Brodkil would have laser rifles.

That's not disproportionately likely.

That's 100%.

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC most or all of the time that's only disproportionately high not 100% of all Brodkil. Plus the idea that magic items that require rare high-level spells to produce and those who can being far far smaller than the numbers of energy weapons being produced by established manufacturers like the CS or NG would somehow always be in the hands of the NPC Brodkil is considerably more unlikely particularly if 100% are never in possession of these common items but 100% are in possession of rare magic items.

[Alrik Vas]

Giving a creature the tools it needs to make a fight with the PC's interesting is as simple as determining HOW they got them. If they salvaged a bunch of stuff from a battlefield then kidnapped an Operator to make him fix it all up, then there ya go. The operator might still be captive and the PC's might rescue them. Or the old battlefield might draw others into the area, making it more dangerous.

Or if someone gave them the weapons, the brodkil would likely be this person's shocktroops/thugs.

Giving them the weapons because the setting says so is one thing. Developing the setting to meet what you need in a game is another.

[Noon]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

No, you didn't fix anything because there was nothing wrong about my post in the first place (and that 'fixed your post' stuff is irritating and insulting). I invented no evidence because the evidence is quite clear in the books there are factories and businesses small and large scattered around producing high-tech items particularly weapons in mass quantities (heck we've entire BOOKS dedicated to cataloging the volumes of items around and where they're manufactured).

Then give me some quotes for how many they produce a year.

Then tell me why the price of a laser rifle they produce does not lower when its so easy for them to produce so many and they are as plentiful as snowflakes.

You're damned either way - you either have to contradict the book prices and reduce them due to mass production (which I'm fine with but I think you have trouble bringing yourself to do it) or recognise that mass production is A: not so mass and B: the books probably don't give production numbers and you have been given an ambiguous word 'mass' than in fine weasel word fashion could mean any amount and you've read into it exactly the definition of 'mass' that you wanted to. In other words - how you imagined it.

But really if you can't think there's a chance there's something wrong with your post and if there actually is something wrong with it, discussion would never work out.

The CS alone has produced millions of SAMAS (just the ones they haven't had stolen by mercenaries number in the millions), along with millions of skelebots, millions of railguns, and energy weapons, and so on. The dead zone between the CS and Tolkeen is literally littered with grave yards filled with technology which includes a lot of weapons and the like. Whether you knock off a little or a lot of the cost for weapons as the production cost all those other well-known manufacturing groups like Northern Gun (as well as the flash-in-the-pan sorts mentioned in the Game-Master's Guide) are producing large numbers of weapons because they're a business, they aren't in it to produce a few hundred weapons or a few thousand they produce and sell on a scope that they're recognized by people in North America for their product and they've been producing for decades if not longer and there are more and more weapons accumulating as the years go along (because weapons aren't bio-degradable and there's no way they're all being destroyed every year).

So while you may rule that all those weapons manufacturers aren't producing anything and nobody is buying their products in your game that's simply not what is clearly shown in the books to be true.

Tell me that, because of all that free loot or easily made weapons, you are lowering the prices of laser rifles from what the book lists them as and I will begin to say you have a point.

You paint it as if there are areas where you might trip for the number of laser rifles laying around. Okay, does that lower the price of them underneath what's written in the book? Or are you lothe to go against the text? The people keep dying of thirst even with the fountain there, because the text damn well says they do and who contradicts that?

[Noon]

So how much does your talisman cost? Who is providing these talismans?

You have no magic guilds in your campaign?

Nor any guilds that might want to gain favours and/or low sums of money from Brodkil for something which, when the guild has the spell, costs them really nothing to make?

A cheap laser cost ~8k, that's a chunk of change, though not terribly expensive. You can outfit a solder pretty well for 10k(weapon, some eclips, some grenades). And that's if your buying all new. If your brodkill are scavenging weapons from kills they don't pay for them.

It sounds like you imagine guys who have somehow gotten 10K then walk around with a laser rifle and no body armour.

If that were somehow the case I would be inclined to agree with you - it'd be easy farming for a Brodkil.

(as a side note to your broadkill have cybernetics like is mentioned in the book? If so then isn't that more expensive than weapons, if not then what is the reasoning on removing part of the write up?)

If we change it to a 'write up' that says people are dying of thirst but a fountain is ten meters away, your question basically is 'what is the reasoning on having the people drink from the fountain instead of die from thirst as the text describes them doing?'

It sounds like the idea of a text being flawed would be a new idea to you - or atleast a palladium text being flawed would be a new idea to you.

Yah you can look at the 'but its expensive so must be rare' or you can look at the 'even vagabonds and city rats start with energy weapons, why not brodkil'

So. Metagame.

That it hurts.

Occasionally a vagabond just spawns into existance in Rifts with their 'energy weapon of choice'? Or the vagabond is born, raised to adulthood and then an energy weapon of his choosing costing $$$$$ just spawns into his arms?

Man, if you run your game that way and enjoy it, okay, it's good you enjoy that. But not everyone runs things that way.

Or if you don't, you realise you make no argument at all in regard to setting.

[Noon]

Giving a creature the tools it needs to make a fight with the PC's interesting is as simple as determining HOW they got them. If they salvaged a bunch of stuff from a battlefield then kidnapped an Operator to make him fix it all up, then there ya go. The operator might still be captive and the PC's might rescue them. Or the old battlefield might draw others into the area, making it more dangerous.

Or if someone gave them the weapons, the brodkil would likely be this person's shocktroops/thugs.

Giving them the weapons because the setting says so is one thing. Developing the setting to meet what you need in a game is another.

And bastardising ones vision of the setting is a third.

Are those tech weapons actually available (atleast in your vision of how the setting is)?

Or are you twisting and contorting the setting to bring them in?

If you are twisting and contorting, why not instead just play the setting how you see it (or atleast figure out if you can reduce the twisting and contorting down any futher than you have)? Try a straight play.

If they're easily available in your setting, okay. I just find that A: Texts can say things that contradict each other (take my dying of thirst near a fountain example) and B: Adhering to text that contradict each other isn't terribly fun.

[Nightmask]

than the places that can create high-tech items and that, as I imagine it, do so in mass quantities

Fixed your post.

As I said to Nikira, there's really nothing saying how much it takes to make a laser rifle. So you just imagine it take as little as it requires to prove your point utterly - by simply inventing the evidence you want to support the conclusion. And granted, the books don't provide anything that would counter your invention.

So okay, I get it - in your games laser rifles are really easy to make.

No, you didn't fix anything because there was nothing wrong about my post in the first place (and that 'fixed your post' stuff is irritating and insulting). I invented no evidence because the evidence is quite clear in the books there are factories and businesses small and large scattered around producing high-tech items particularly weapons in mass quantities (heck we've entire BOOKS dedicated to cataloging the volumes of items around and where they're manufactured).

Then give me some quotes for how many they produce a year.

Then tell me why the price of a laser rifle they produce does not lower when its so easy for them to produce so many and they are as plentiful as snowflakes.

You're damned either way - you either have to contradict the book prices and reduce them due to mass production (which I'm fine with but I think you have trouble bringing yourself to do it) or recognise that mass production is A: not so mass and B: the books probably don't give production numbers and you have been given an ambiguous word 'mass' than in fine weasel word fashion could mean any amount and you've read into it exactly the definition of 'mass' that you wanted to. In other words - how you imagined it.

But really if you can't think there's a chance there's something wrong with your post and if there actually is something wrong with it, discussion would never work out.

So apparently you miss the third option, that the prices given are in fact factoring in price reductions due to mass production, since you can turn out a lot of something and still have it be pretty pricey (just look at cars).

The CS alone has produced millions of SAMAS (just the ones they haven't had stolen by mercenaries number in the millions), along with millions of skelebots, millions of railguns, and energy weapons, and so on. The dead zone between the CS and Tolkeen is literally littered with grave yards filled with technology which includes a lot of weapons and the like. Whether you knock off a little or a lot of the cost for weapons as the production cost all those other well-known manufacturing groups like Northern Gun (as well as the flash-in-the-pan sorts mentioned in the Game-Master's Guide) are producing large numbers of weapons because they're a business, they aren't in it to produce a few hundred weapons or a few thousand they produce and sell on a scope that they're recognized by people in North America for their product and they've been producing for decades if not longer and there are more and more weapons accumulating as the years go along (because weapons aren't bio-degradable and there's no way they're all being destroyed every year).

So while you may rule that all those weapons manufacturers aren't producing anything and nobody is buying their products in your game that's simply not what is clearly shown in the books to be true.

Tell me that, because of all that free loot or easily made weapons, you are lowering the prices of laser rifles from what the book lists them as and I will begin to say you have a point.

You paint it as if there are areas where you might trip for the number of laser rifles laying around. Okay, does that lower the price of them underneath what's written in the book? Or are you lothe to go against the text? The people keep dying of thirst even with the fountain there, because the text damn well says they do and who contradicts that?

Uh no, the BOOKS make it quite clear that there are places where you can practically trip over laser rifles (look at the tables for the war on Tolkeen, there are options to run across entire gun caches completely unguarded). Of which none of that is going to have any particular bearing on the costs of things like laser rifles just like in RL people finding caches of guns or other items don't affect the market price of those items. Guns are plentiful RL and yet the prices still remain fairly constant and at a not very cheap level. So even if every Brodkil is carrying a laser rifle and every laser rifle is recovered intact by a PC group it's going to have zero impact on the price of laser rifles on the open market.

Really, you're obsessing on the price at which Laser Rifles are sold and in spite of the evidence against it insisting that it must mean that the weapons are rare when that's clearly not the case, or that somehow used items being resold would have massive economic impact which again is not a given nor supported by the book material.

If you find the NPC you're using against the PC weak then given them the gear commonly expected of them, mages are going to be carrying around mainly magical items and Brodkil are going to be carrying around mainly technological items. If your motivation is to always keep the PC broke by ensuring they never have anything they can resell like keeping Brodkil basically naked in spite of them being a tech-using/favoring race well then there really isn't any room for a reasonable discussion since you're always going to find excuses for why 'oh no that's just too rare/impossible for them to have' even when they should have relatively easy access to it (after all you expect the people robbing other people to be better armed than those who aren't going around robbing people).

[Noon]

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC

I don't run games where such 'happens' conveniently occur just to the PC's. I find it contrived. No, I do not snap or bark at anyone else who wants to play that way. But I don't want to.

The Brodkil they are running into at the moment are from clans drawn toward psuedo-service to an undead god that's arising. I note this now because folks original arguments seemed entirely 'the text says they love tech, so tech they have', which ignored context.

in possession of these common items

Common like a Lamborghini is common, as opposed to being a magical device?

Please use the word 'mundane' instead of 'common', as that's what you meant but what you said leads to other interpretations.

[eliakon]

No, out of all the Brodkil if the one's most likely to have energy weapons happens to be those attacking the PC

I don't run games where such 'happens' conveniently occur just to the PC's. I find it contrived. No, I do not snap or bark at anyone else who wants to play that way. But I don't want to.

The Brodkil they are running into at the moment are from clans drawn toward psuedo-service to an undead god that's arising. I note this now because folks original arguments seemed entirely 'the text says they love tech, so tech they have', which ignored context.

That is not a trivial bit there. The original post was about the 'low damage of Brodkil' which implies generic Brodkil, it also provided no explanation for them to chose a rare powerful weapon over the races normal inclination. Now if they are specific monsters, that serve a specific master, and that master is a GOD? Then yes, it suddenly makes perfect sense. Now they are being armed by some one, instead of just having 'random gear' (which make the whole who is paying for these toys moot). It gives a reason for them to have magic (a god did it).