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What W.P. would be used from someone using the vibro claws out of Juicers Uprising?

Me? I wouldn't use a W.P. and just make regular H2H attacks. That's just me of course. But I wouldn't want to grant additional strike bonuses for what is effectively just a punch....especially not when things with claws don't get such a bonus....

At least originally you were instructed to use WP Knife, which of the options available made the most sense, claws being short blades and all.

Eashamahel wrote:At least originally you were instructed to use WP Knife, which of the options available made the most sense, claws being short blades and all.

Correct.
Every time I've seen a WP mentioned (in regards to claws) in Rifts, it's WP Knife.

We used WP Forked if it has multiple blades.

RUE Page 259 wrote:The W.P. Knife skill and bonuses apply
to Vibro-Blades and Vibro-Claws.

As well worded as any rifts ruling but the jist is clear, claws are knives for the purposes of skills.

I agree WP knife covers claw weapons, natural weapons do not need or use a WP as far as I know.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:At least originally you were instructed to use WP Knife, which of the options available made the most sense, claws being short blades and all.

Correct.
Every time I've seen a WP mentioned (in regards to claws) in Rifts, it's WP Knife.

KC is correct. Even when talking about the better settings.

Yes, that is how I have always seen it, claws = WP knife. However it is unclear if this only applies to a non-natural weapon addition of claws (a forearm claw vambrace, retractable virbo claws, ect..) or could this WP be applied to natural claws.

From RDB#10 (Hades) Gurgoyles have claws that do damage per Supernatural PS +1D6 MD, they also get RCC skills including WP's and could choose WP knife. Would a Gurgoyle get to add the strike and parry bonuses (throw not applicable) from WP Knife when stiking or parrying with their natural claws?

42dragon wrote:Yes, that is how I have always seen it, claws = WP knife. However it is unclear if this only applies to a non-natural weapon addition of claws (a forearm claw vambrace, retractable virbo claws, ect..) or could this WP be applied to natural claws.

From RDB#10 (Hades) Gurgoyles have claws that do damage per Supernatural PS +1D6 MD, they also get RCC skills including WP's and could choose WP knife. Would a Gurgoyle get to add the strike and parry bonuses (throw not applicable) from WP Knife when stiking or parrying with their natural claws?

I always interpreted it as no, but I suppose you could make an argument....

I thought of it as WP aka WEAPON Proficiency, only applies to non "natural" weapons although you then could argue that there should be an equivalent "proficiency" for the trained use of "natural or built in weapons" that are part of your body

its sort of a tangent example, but think of the mutants wolverine and sabretooth why should wolverine be able to use wp knife to upgrade his claws when sabretooth can't do the same to upgrade his fingernail claws

In the original creation rules for supernatural monsters, they were afforded natural combat bonuses to go along with their natural weapons. A Tiger, for instance, is skilled with it's claws, and recieves bonuses, but this is done differently than a human who is trained in the use of a clawed vambrace. Usually the predators skill is shown in either set bonuses to strike, parry, ect, or a high PP. Although these apply equally to, say, claw attacks and judo throws, that's more the vagueness of the system than not awarding the creature bonuses to go along with it's natural weapons.

(canon)
If the creature has claws as their natural weapons already have their bonuses for them integrated into their natural bonuses of the creature they are.

The WP Claws is just for using constructed weapons.
-------------
(opinion)
If a clawed being has and uses constructed claw weapons then they 'could...possibly' ( ) acquire WP claws, if they can have skills, but it would only count when using the constructed claws and only the damage from the constructed claws would be done while using the constructed claws.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:(canon)
If the creature has claws as their natural weapons already have their bonuses for them integrated into their natural bonuses of the creature they are.

The WP Claws is just for using constructed weapons.
-------------
(opinion)
If a clawed being has and uses constructed claw weapons then they 'could...possibly' ( ) acquire WP claws, if they can have skills, but it would only count when using the constructed claws and only the damage from the constructed claws would be done while using the constructed claws.

sort of my point
when using "artificial" claws /knives guns etc the wp would apply.

however (opinion) there could argueably should be an equivalent "skill" that could apply to "natural" weapons that some characters (animals etc) can take that represents better than "normal" training with those natural weapons ex every "cat" gets an inherent +2 to hit with their claw attacks, a specific "tiger" was "trained to fight with its claws" and so gets bonuses roughly equivalent to wp knife in addition to represent that "extra" training/skill

The thing is, that those animals with natural weapons already have bonuses built in to represent that skill. They just have general +2 to strike, instead of +2 to strike with claw attacks, because Palladium is not set up for that level of specificity.

Eashamahel wrote:The thing is, that those animals with natural weapons already have bonuses built in to represent that skill. They just have general +2 to strike, instead of +2 to strike with claw attacks, because Palladium is not set up for that level of specificity.

Palladium has no difficulty with that level of specialty, there are plenty of bonuses that only apply to a single type of attack.

And there are just as many examples where that is not done. Likely there are actually more examples of it not being done, though yes, there are some where creatures have different bonuses (+X to bit, +y to claw).

rat_bastard wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:The thing is, that those animals with natural weapons already have bonuses built in to represent that skill. They just have general +2 to strike, instead of +2 to strike with claw attacks, because Palladium is not set up for that level of specificity.

Palladium has no difficulty with that level of specialty, there are plenty of bonuses that only apply to a single type of attack.

It could be done it very, very rarely IS done, but yes in theory it could be done.

Thanks, i realize that i didn't convey my point very clearly. It's not that they SYSTEM doesn't support it, it's that it's rarely done. Different bonuses, for example, would give a reason as to why characters might choose different types of attacks (if a 'Snap Kick' for example had a higher strike bonus than a 'Roundhouse Kick', as currently there's no reason to have both since the only difference is damage), but it's not something PB explores very much.

eliakon wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:The thing is, that those animals with natural weapons already have bonuses built in to represent that skill. They just have general +2 to strike, instead of +2 to strike with claw attacks, because Palladium is not set up for that level of specificity.

Palladium has no difficulty with that level of specialty, there are plenty of bonuses that only apply to a single type of attack.

It could be done it very, very rarely IS done, but yes in theory it could be done.

Lets see, Hand to hand Assassin offers bonuses strictly for throwing or modern weapons, fencing provides a damage bonus to swords only, Aerobic Athletics offers a bonus to kicking damage and that is just a brief skimming of RUE.

Specific bonuses happen whenever they are needed.

Adding damage to an attack is different from attacks having different bonuses. that was the entire point of the bit about Palladium's different kick damages but no combat bonuses to go along with them.

You want to point out HtH Assassin an fencing? Sure, here's a few more:

Boxing provides bonuses to Parry and Dodge, not against punches, but against everything. Take boxing? Parry kicks better. Wrestling on the other hand gives you no bonuses to either land a takedown (bodyblock/tackle) or defend one (parry or dodge such an attack). Want to land a better takedown for wrestling? Hand to Hand Assassin gives strike bonuses. Want to defend a wrestling takedown? Take boxing!


When bonuses do try and get more specific, just as often they make little to no sense. Acrobatics actually adds a bonus to roll with IMPACT, not 'Fall', for reasons beyond understanding, as does Gymnastics.


The Palladium system does not NEVER have seperate bonuses, it just RARELY does, it's generally not set up for different bonuses. Characters land Elbows, punches, knees, kicks, ect all with the same bonuses, all equally easily parried (or dodged), and the only difference between them, the VAST marority of the time, is damage.

I find no logical reason why artificial claws strapped to the forearms or wrists should provide bonuses while natural claws projecting from the forearms or wrists should not. I kinda like the idea of giving WP knife to gargoyles for their claws

W.P. Knife (as per its description in the R:UE). I also think its mentioned again somewhere in Juicer uprising. Its one of those interesting little facts that I've always thought were neat. Tiger Claws and such, use Forked but vanbrace weaponry uses W.P. Knife.

danlorenz wrote:I would really like to see some new claw weapons please show image.

There are better pictures in the books, but THERE you go man.

I don't mind claw weapons using the same bonuses as WP knife but I kinda like requiring a separate skill selection for it seeing as how claws are used rather differently...

I mean really, stabby-claws and hooky-claws should probably have diff weapons too, but then, you could say the same for stabbing and slashing swords and those are covered under one.

isawarenshi wrote:What W.P. would be used from someone using the vibro claws out of Juicers Uprising?

Claws are part of WP knife.

Tor wrote:I don't mind claw weapons using the same bonuses as WP knife but I kinda like requiring a separate skill selection for it seeing as how claws are used rather differently...

I mean really, stabby-claws and hooky-claws should probably have diff weapons too, but then, you could say the same for stabbing and slashing swords and those are covered under one.

PB has simplified weapon skills so many traditional weapons are lumped into super groups even if they do not get used the same way. Like WP clubs covering both maces and staffs. Or WP forced including tridents and Sias.
A system like that has both strong suits and weakness. Could you imagine how big the skill tables would be if every weapon type had its own skill. It does add flexibility to gear but as you point out does have a logical draw back.

The skill tables wouldn't have to be that big, different classes of weapons still might use equivalent bonus advancement rates while requiring separate skill selections to use them. Like how the modern weapons do.