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Flatline posts a lot about this idea (summoning an elemental then drawing it's PPE to make more), which i think is pretty smart if you want to whip up an army of minions to curb stomp some serious business. I was recently looking through an old FAQ for Magic (I don't know whow as answering the questions, but it was from the 90's so it might have been KS) and someone brought up this idea exactly (which, it could have been Flatline, which would amuse me), and the answer was that you could do this, however the spellcaster would be restricted by the rules for drawing PPE from living beings.

So i checked on that and in RUE the only restriction is that the target has to be willing, which i think is okay and all...but was there a different set of rules for it in RMB? Or is the issue that the Elemental is supposed to be stingy with it's power, only appearing to do a deed for you and then go home?

The act does seem very plausible and simple (assuming your GM decides that Elementals are like, "Ja bro, take my powarz, it's all gud!"), which makes me think that it's just a lack of oversight on the game's part, or maybe there are consequences GM's are supposed to impose which make this a bad idea, i'm not really sure.

Anyway, i was just thinking of having an NPC who is very enterprising in my game do something like this and have the players get caught in the middle, because i'm basically a jerk.

By elementals do we mean the essence fragments of intelligences like the Mini-Ice and Mini-Mud and Phantom who can be summoned with spells, as upposed to the ritual summoning of Lesser/Greater elementals?

Either/any sort I would say that its up to the GM to make a ruling on if the elemental will willingly give up its PPE. The best guide for this is "what ever is best for the campaign and doesn't disrupt play for the group." There is no hard and fast rules either way, and so like many things in palladium it is left up to the judgment of the GM.

I figured that was the answer, honestly. I wouldn't expect KS to have hard rules for this sort of thing. I was just curious if anyone had information i was missing. Thanks.

The impression I got from the summoning rituals (be they warlock or Summoner) is that so long as the being is remaining on your plane, it will be obedient to you.

If enough time (or trial) goes by that an elemental rebels, it will either kill you (Warlock) or leave you (Summoner) or fight to free other elementals (Summoner, sometimes).

I think that would include providing you with PPE.

Unless your summoner is a warlock, I'd assume the elemental would not be willing in the first place... for a warlock, I'd allow it, anything for the little brothers...

Well yeah of course they're unwilling, but if they lose the battle of wills, they must obey, and I think PPE donation would fall under things they could be commanded to do, assuming they understand the instruction.

Letting somebody take your PPE needs true willingness, not just compelled obedience, otherwise, mental barriers remain that won't let the mage tap you.

If compelled obedience was enough, evil mages would keep teams of power slaves rather than sacrificing victims... half the power, but reusable.

Svartalf wrote:Letting somebody take your PPE needs true willingness, not just compelled obedience, otherwise, mental barriers remain that won't let the mage tap you.

That's inconsistent with the rules.

If you're not trained in the use of your PPE and you're unaware of me or otherwise not on the defensive towards me, then I can draw 50% of your PPE from you. "True Willingness" (whatever that means) is clearly not a requirement. If you're actively trying to assist me, then I can draw 70% of your PPE. Whether or not your assistance is voluntary or compelled via psionics or magic makes no difference.

If you ARE trained in the use of your PPE, then the barriers to your PPE are consciously controlled by you. If I compel you to lower those barriers via magic, psionics, intimidation, whatever, then the barriers will be lowered. Again, "True Willingness" has nothing to do with it.

If compelled obedience was enough, evil mages would keep teams of power slaves rather than sacrificing victims... half the power, but reusable.

This would not be the first time that the logical implications to the setting have been ignored by the authors.

--flatline

Where has Palladium made the distinction between compelled agreement and free agreement in terms of sharing energy? Someone might hate the idea of opening up to others but could do it if they felt it was in their best interest.

Some mages obviously WOULD keep teams of power slaves instead of sacrifices. It's sustainable if you have the resources to manage it. Keeping people alive (much less enslaved) can be taxing on micromanagement though, so many skip on it.

Tor wrote:The impression I got from the summoning rituals (be they warlock or Summoner) is that so long as the being is remaining on your plane, it will be obedient to you.

If enough time (or trial) goes by that an elemental rebels, it will either kill you (Warlock) or leave you (Summoner) or fight to free other elementals (Summoner, sometimes).

I think that would include providing you with PPE.

Palladium-style summoner OCC magic circles have reoccuring saves. if you win the initial battle of wills, over time they can make a new save every few months or so, but they can choose to not make the save at the first opportunity to accure bonus's. the longer the demon delays the second battle of wills, the higher the bonus. thus while the summoner can in theory bind them indefinatly, a paitent immortal demon will eventually wait long enough to get a large enough bonus to ensure they break free. this is why wise summoners usually banish their demons willingly after a few years at most.

That does nothing to deal with how silly it is to draw PPE from others. I think i'll make it take a long time, might be the way to solve the issue.

i view it not as an issue from the caster side, but rather from the elemental side. read the bit about warlocks and elemental. elementals summoned by a non-warlock will follow orders.. but if the order isn't one they like, they'll often carry them out in ways that follow the letter of the order but not the intent. and they can refuse orders too, IIRC. just not easily. so even if ordered to give up PPE, unless it was a polite request by a "friend" they'd probably not allow the caster to take more than the 50%.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Palladium-style summoner OCC magic circles have reoccuring saves

Right you are, I misphrased, instead of 'long as the being is remaining' I meant so long as it is under your control by whatever means that it would be obedient for PPE-sharing.

glitterboy2098 wrote:elementals summoned by a non-warlock will follow orders.. but if the order isn't one they like, they'll often carry them out in ways that follow the letter of the order but not the intent.

You're thinking of Djinn or other demons/deevils, who twist the word. Elementals can get mad, but they're not complex enough to be malicious about misinterpreting orders. Elementals do often carry out the letter more than the intent, but that is simply due to not understanding out reality, and a beloved warlock brother is just as likely to suffer that problem as a summoner.

glitterboy2098 wrote:they can refuse orders too, IIRC. just not easily.

If they win a battle of wills, sure. Unfortunately they tend not to have an ME attribute listed so they suck at making those saves.

glitterboy2098 wrote:even if ordered to give up PPE, unless it was a polite request by a "friend" they'd probably not allow the caster to take more than the 50%.

If their master ordered them to, they would have to do it. If the caster said "give me your PPE" they might only give some (since 'all' was not explicitly said) but if the master specifies most or all, they must obey.