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If you were going to make a Longbowman for PFRPG but were allowed some leeway in what race they could be what would you pick?

EDIT: please include the book they are found in if you can, thanks!

Bug bear.

Not really a race, but could make a Fayed Sister from Northern Hinterlands p. 162.

Natasha wrote:Bug bear.

Not really a race, but could make a Fayed Sister from Northern Hinterlands p. 162.

Nice I like it.

Keep the idea's coming!

Thanks

Danzi, they run faster then everybody else so, run run run shoot. run run run shoot. run run run shoot. They would never get within hth range.

kiralon wrote:Danzi

What book? maybe a page too if you have it handy.
Edit: found it in the Eastern Territories book. Thanks for the idea!

eastern territories p.25
thunder, thunder, thundercats hoooooo

haha I just editing my previous post that I found it when you posted that

Wolfen. Big size, big damage.

If you want to get super silly, just play a demigod. Pantheons of the Megaverse. Convert it to lower magic environment/SDC.

Asgard high elf from pantheons. Great stats and elf bonus with bows.

Kankoran

With as much leeway as you say you have, why not choose a Jeridu (World Book 14: Land of the Damned 1, Page 69)? 6 arms may mean 3 long bows if said GM offers that much leeway... not that mine does lol

MrShowtime wrote:With as much leeway as you say you have, why not choose a Jeridu (World Book 14: Land of the Damned 1, Page 69)? 6 arms may mean 3 long bows if said GM offers that much leeway... not that mine does lol

Wouldn't physically work to have 3 longbows because of the stance and the way the bow is drawn (try to imagine 3 bows drawn at once, even if you manage it without entangling as there is only 1 head so only 1 would be aimed), however having extra arms holding arrows would certainly allow for the argument of higher rate of fire, and maybe a bow with higher pull for more damage as you can get multiple arms working for better leverage.

Touche lol and I suppose drawing for 3 bows wouldn't be possible either... A Jeridu is more for melee anyways, but makes for a great battling character yet doesn't have to be a brute.

kiralon wrote:Danzi, they run faster then everybody else so, run run run shoot. run run run shoot. run run run shoot. They would never get within hth range.

Couldn't you do about the same thing with any Longbowman and a horse? Horse archers are pretty awesome, though it doesn't often seem to pop up in people's games.

Mark Hall wrote:Wolfen. Big size, big damage.

I'd have to go with this. The single biggest downside of archery is the low damage, which never really improves, in Palladium. The Wolfen (being giant sized) increases that damage by 50% which is a huge boost. On average, they would do enough damage to almost kill an average 'first level' peasant who didn't have any SDC to start! That being said, I prefer my Wolfen with javelins, pillum, and other similar weapons, where they can also make great use of their strength for damage as well as distance.

The Dark Elf wrote:Kankoran

This is just classy. I love the Kankoran, and the image of them stalking through the trees with arrows nocked to bowstrings, feathers, beads and scars on display is just great. I have to wonder though, does the average NPC Kankoran (not PC's who commonly break all the molds and can do things far from normal) really use a 'Long'bow? I would think they would be more likely to use a 'regular' bow, as they seem more similar to cultures around the world that do.

Eashamahel wrote:

The Dark Elf wrote:Kankoran

This is just classy. I love the Kankoran, and the image of them stalking through the trees with arrows nocked to bowstrings, feathers, beads and scars on display is just great. I have to wonder though, does the average NPC Kankoran (not PC's who commonly break all the molds and can do things far from normal) really use a 'Long'bow? I would think they would be more likely to use a 'regular' bow, as they seem more similar to cultures around the world that do.

I would make the general npc's use short bows indeed.

Eashamahel wrote:

kiralon wrote:Danzi, they run faster then everybody else so, run run run shoot. run run run shoot. run run run shoot. They would never get within hth range.

Couldn't you do about the same thing with any Longbowman and a horse? Horse archers are pretty awesome, though it doesn't often seem to pop up in people's games.

Surprisingly the fastest danzi can outrun a horse over short and long distances, and can also cast chameleon on themselves naturally. They have 5d6+6 speed, add 4d4 for running and then can sprint for x2 speed for 1/4 their pe in minutes per day. They can also run for 1hr per PE point per day without needing rest.

Using a longbow from the back of a horse would be tricky, especially trying to aim at something moving at the same speed, and as the Danzi has less mass and smaller area he can stop quicker and makes a smaller target. (I know the game makes no difference for shooting at a fly from 800ft and a blue whale at 3 ft)

I've always wanted to play a centaur longbowman. Plate Barding, big saddle bag-quivers for arrows, and decent P.S., P.E, and P.P. Would be fun.

kiralon wrote:Using a longbow from the back of a horse would be tricky, especially trying to aim at something moving at the same speed, and as the Danzi has less mass and smaller area he can stop quicker and makes a smaller target. (I know the game makes no difference for shooting at a fly from 800ft and a blue whale at 3 ft)

I would think using a bow of any kind while RUNNING would be harder than doing so from horseback.


And the Centaur version of horse archers is always classy.

Eashamahel wrote:

kiralon wrote:Using a longbow from the back of a horse would be tricky, especially trying to aim at something moving at the same speed, and as the Danzi has less mass and smaller area he can stop quicker and makes a smaller target. (I know the game makes no difference for shooting at a fly from 800ft and a blue whale at 3 ft)

I would think using a bow of any kind while RUNNING would be harder than doing so from horseback.


And the Centaur version of horse archers is always classy.

Running and shooting would be hard, but I would run and stop and shoot then run again, as you are faster you will generally stay away, and horses generally aren't happy when they have an arrow sticking out of them. (not that there are rules preventing you from running and shooting).

yeah but, the horse might not be happy to have an arrow sticking out of it, and I'M not happy it's got an arrow sticking out of it, but I'm a heck of a lot happier *I* don't have an arrow sticking out of me!!

I like the horse/centaur idea I think for the run AND shoot instead of run, shoot, run, but in a world with bipedal humanoids who can run faster AND longer than a horse, I don't have an argument.


Just in general, a creature with a Supernatural strength should (roughly) be able to draw a bow 5x heavier than what it's PS would normally allow. If that actually worked, then i would have a hard time arguing that's not instantly the default choice.

Eashamahel wrote:yeah but, the horse might not be happy to have an arrow sticking out of it, and I'M not happy it's got an arrow sticking out of it, but I'm a heck of a lot happier *I* don't have an arrow sticking out of me!!

I like the horse/centaur idea I think for the run AND shoot instead of run, shoot, run, but in a world with bipedal humanoids who can run faster AND longer than a horse, I don't have an argument.


Just in general, a creature with a Supernatural strength should (roughly) be able to draw a bow 5x heavier than what it's PS would normally allow. If that actually worked, then i would have a hard time arguing that's not instantly the default choice.

I have a fairly comprehensive list for ranged combat modifiers, but even using that the centaur longbowman with a crossbowman (my crossbows do a lot more damage and shoot a lot slower) on his back is quite good

A Centaur carrying a human? The shame...

First of all Legolas disagrees with you in regards to not being about to run and shoot at the same time. I was also going to say Danzi as well. I made a Danzi character for a game that never came to pass a few years ago and would really like to play it out some day. Their ability to run is amazing, and I could see that working very well into combat with a GM that did a fluid and fun combat style.

Faerie Longbowman but in miniature form. It wouldn't be necessarily super damage but it would be funny to role-play.

Now if you just want to go completely munchkin make a Tauton LongBowman that tips their arrows in the poison from their stinger. Plus they are giant sized, have really high attributes and are supernatural that works too.

Tyberius wrote:First of all Legolas disagrees with you in regards to not being about to run and shoot at the same time. I was also going to say Danzi as well. I made a Danzi character for a game that never came to pass a few years ago and would really like to play it out some day. Their ability to run is amazing, and I could see that working very well into combat with a GM that did a fluid and fun combat style.

With regards, even though it doesn't specifically state it in PF so far as i know, moving while attacking is covered in Juicer Uprising (and perhaps in the Rifts GMG) that states if you move and attack at the same time on your turn, you take a -3 penalty and move slower than you normally would (i believe at half the movement).

Tyberius wrote:First of all Legolas disagrees with you in regards to not being about to run and shoot at the same time.

By the movies, where we see him running and shooting, i would say he had a 'bow', not a longbow. I'm pretty sure the bows of the other elves were actually larger/longbows.

Lukterran wrote:Faerie Longbowman but in miniature form. It wouldn't be necessarily super damage but it would be funny to role-play.

Faeries with bows is awesome. Characters pulling out porcupine quills for hours after disturbing them/accidentally insulting the Queen is an underrated bit of humour.

Alrik Vas wrote:With regards, even though it doesn't specifically state it in PF so far as i know, moving while attacking is covered in Juicer Uprising (and perhaps in the Rifts GMG) that states if you move and attack at the same time on your turn, you take a -3 penalty and move slower than you normally would (i believe at half the movement).

Doesn't the Longbowman have some specific rule about not taking penalties while doing specific things?

They may very well. Though my copy of PF long ago was consumed by time itself.

This is what my longbowman have to put up with when im dm

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=141128&hilit=ranged#p2738814

scroll down to the ranged combat modifiers.

Lukterran wrote:Faerie Longbowman but in miniature form. It wouldn't be necessarily super damage but it would be funny to role-play.

Now if you just want to go completely munchkin make a Tauton LongBowman that tips their arrows in the poison from their stinger. Plus they are giant sized, have really high attributes and are supernatural that works too.

Had this in one of my games- a night elf named Binker Tell, shooting faerie magic arrows- is still one of my all time faves! The PC played her to the hilt!

Elven, due to the fact I like elves. Also have excellent vision at day or night time and a good Physical Prowess.

2nd choice would be Wolfen, again just because I like Wolfen. Also their bigger size (and damage) and ability to better handle rugged winter conditions is a plus.

Am I missing something? Why do wolfen do bigger damage? Just because of their PS? Or because their weapons are larger? What is it?

all giant sized weapons do an extra d6 damage

I was unaware. I'll have to do some work with my wolfen player. Seems silly i would have missed that somehow.

As i said before...

Alrik Vas wrote:They may very well. Though my copy of PF long ago was consumed by time itself.

But thanks for the assist, Prysus.

I had a Titan Longbowman once. His arrows were the size of javelins.

Troll! Boom you're dead

Cyclops Longbowman, get the extra d6 damage for giant size, plus access to their lightning shafts (which they can shoot an additional 600ft, for a longbow that would be 700ft+600ft=1300ft at level 1 +25ft per level. That's like a level 25 Longbowman baseline w/o other racial modifiers for range).

A Gigantes, mutant giant might also be interesting with the right roll/selections on the mutation table (turn invisible, additional arm/hand for extra attack, use their poison/acid ability to enhance arrows, wings for flight, etc).

I wanted to say Quillback as an option, but they can't be the Longbowman OCC, but can select the Ranger OCC and take WP Longbow. I was thinking they could use their quills as arrows, but now I'm not so sure as they might be sized better for crossbow bolts.

Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

MrShowtime wrote:With as much leeway as you say you have, why not choose a Jeridu (World Book 14: Land of the Damned 1, Page 69)? 6 arms may mean 3 long bows if said GM offers that much leeway... not that mine does lol

kiralon wrote:having extra arms holding arrows would certainly allow for the argument of higher rate of fire, and maybe a bow with higher pull for more damage as you can get multiple arms working for better leverage.

This!

Tyberius wrote:First of all Legolas disagrees with you in regards to not being about to run and shoot at the same time.

Freak cases like him are obvious examples of Longbowmen with Sharpshooter/Sniper skills to reduce penalties and have bonuses to offset them with.

Whether shooting from horseback or while running is easier is something I think that depends on your proficiency with either, what you practise doing more. In the case of horsemanship I think we should have some rules for 'getting to know the horse' though, Palladium seems to have 1 generic skill for it whether you've been riding a horse for a couple minutes or for 5 years...

With running, you wouldn't have any acclimation time, barring any injuries.

MrShowtime wrote:With as much leeway as you say you have, why not choose a Jeridu (World Book 14: Land of the Damned 1, Page 69)? 6 arms may mean 3 long bows if said GM offers that much leeway... not that mine does lol

So without even seeing this post (for some reason I stopped getting email notifications on it) we decided to do this. not only this but a whole group of Jeridu (as my char was already a Jeridu juggler/knife thrower.

Ended up with (all Jeridu)
-Godling with flight, and the psi option taken twice so he has ALL minor psi powers and 5 major (this is the GM's character so he gets what he wants)
-Juggler knife/knife thrower
-Longbowman (GM said he gets the RoF from the longbowman OCC for each set of arms but cannot aim with the bottom two)
-Diabolist
-Priest of Light
-Half-Wizard (thief for the other half)

The diabolist and PoL will be run by myself and the longbowman as secondary characters since we needed a group of 6 (Jeridu travel/adventure in Hexans) as well as needing them for support.

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

The issue isn't necessarily seeing, but trigonometry. In order to hit an object at range you need to aim within an arc which is inversely proportional to the range. To make matters worse, in order to hit an object at range with an indirect fire weapon you need a very good estimate of distance, difference in elevation between the target and firing platform, and wind currents hundreds of feet above the surface which have no relations to those on the surface.

The Immortal ME wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

The issue isn't necessarily seeing, but trigonometry. In order to hit an object at range you need to aim within an arc which is inversely proportional to the range. To make matters worse, in order to hit an object at range with an indirect fire weapon you need a very good estimate of distance, difference in elevation between the target and firing platform, and wind currents hundreds of feet above the surface which have no relations to those on the surface.

Considering the game doesn't have the arrow take any time to get there, I don't think most are gonna worry about trig.

The Immortal ME wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

The issue isn't necessarily seeing, but trigonometry. In order to hit an object at range you need to aim within an arc which is inversely proportional to the range. To make matters worse, in order to hit an object at range with an indirect fire weapon you need a very good estimate of distance, difference in elevation between the target and firing platform, and wind currents hundreds of feet above the surface which have no relations to those on the surface.

Good points but the game doesn't account for this (its a game after all and too much realism especially in combat gets it very bogged down). At those distances you could even have a normal chance to dodge behind cover or simply change your position since its gonna take 2, and maybe as much as 4, seconds for the arrow to travel 1300 feet. In two seconds at a Spd of 10 you can cover 20 feet, 40 for 4 seconds, and of course more if you have a higher than average speed attribute.

Isn't the arc of fire (between 0 and 45 degrees) directly related to the distance? Pretty sure that at very close distances you can get away with 0 degrees where at a longer distance you would need a higher arc and at max distance you are pretty much shooting at 45 degrees. Inverse relation would mean at very close distance you would be shooting at a very high arc and at far distance you would be shooting very flat. Arcs grater than 45 degrees generally shorten the shot and increase hang time and are only used for indirect fire weapons like artillery or mortars.

Bows are direct fire under most circumstances. Fire over a castle wall or over a hill or hedge or over your front ranks of infantry and cavalry, would be indirect because you cannot see your target and are basically aiming at a point in the sky and estimating where it will land and adjusting this aim point in the sky to hopefully hit your target on the ground. Even when this is used its generally used very close to the max distance of the bows so that the archers can stay as far away from their target as possible, so angles above 45 degrees are not really used. Archery en masse works pretty well this way because you are filling the air with many, many arrows, from many, many archers. Despite "max range-high arcing fire" being widely used in history it is not how most people play archers in RPGs. We tend to shoot stuff we can see with a single (or a handful) of archers.

Anyhow this thread is about good races for archers not the physics of archery.

Mark Hall wrote:

The Immortal ME wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

The issue isn't necessarily seeing, but trigonometry. In order to hit an object at range you need to aim within an arc which is inversely proportional to the range. To make matters worse, in order to hit an object at range with an indirect fire weapon you need a very good estimate of distance, difference in elevation between the target and firing platform, and wind currents hundreds of feet above the surface which have no relations to those on the surface.

Considering the game doesn't have the arrow take any time to get there, I don't think most are gonna worry about trig.

Teleporting arrows are awesome in that regard arn't they? So much simpler.

The Immortal ME wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Lukterran wrote:Problem with a range of 1300ft is the negative modifiers to shoot and hit something that far away. Not only seeing that far is difficult without clear terrain.

Given a Cyclops is 2-3x larger than human size, which those modifiers are based on, it may be the equivalent of a human shooting at 400-600ft as opposed to one shooting at 1300ft for a Cyclops. Additionally they could have magical enchanted objects to grant them superior vision (ex. "Eye of the Eagle" monocle in PF2 pg256, allows one to see 2000ft clearly)

Terrain is an issue, but it would also apply to any archer/range attack to fully utilize the range.

The issue isn't necessarily seeing, but trigonometry. In order to hit an object at range you need to aim within an arc which is inversely proportional to the range. To make matters worse, in order to hit an object at range with an indirect fire weapon you need a very good estimate of distance, difference in elevation between the target and firing platform, and wind currents hundreds of feet above the surface which have no relations to those on the surface.

Which would be covered by the WP skill(s) IMHO.

WP: Archery increases the [u]maximum effective [/i]range each level. While the WP: Longbow lacks that qualification, it can be seen in other lines that "range" is short for "effective range" in numerous cases, and one can shoot beyond effective range by 30% with penalties.

Titan. just think of it. your shooting tree's as your arrow's.. ballista bolt's for arrow's man with a long bow range...giant sized. massive damage. or Cyclop's with the lighting arrow's...from a long bow.

Titan and cyclop's are in the main book.