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Okay, here's a question-- the OSM indicates that there are not a lot of survivors. I think the number ranges from 70,000 to a few million, although there are debates.

But...there are cities. A fair number of cities. We have monument, Rooks' hometown, the several settlements that were shown in the post rain of death era-- and they're mostly fairly large cities, certainly more than 10-100K apeice. (notice the size of the city that Khyon attacks on Christmas eve). Even ignoring NYC, that's a pretty big urban infrastructure, with all that implies in terms of rural support.

Not only that, but there is a lot of luxury materials-- Dana's dress, the "collection" of fighters we see in the NEw Gen episode, the food supplies in Detroit. These aren't just military bases, they're big cities with everything from plays to dress makers to confectionary stores, and every piece of candy you see has to have people, usually a lot of people, behind it. AGain, that indicates a large population-- large enough that you can afford to let Junior go to candy making store instead of pointing out that the Emperor demands his service for the adeptes ast- err that he has to join the UEDF.

But Robotech specifically didn't use cloning, and Shadow Chronicles makes it plain, however disgusiting the decision was, that the zentraedi were largely an isolated (ghettoized) group that more or less died out, to the point that having zentraedi blood is something that is seen as pretty unusual and worthy of comment.

We also note that the military has a high percentage of females in it, and there is no sign that the birth rate has increased, or that their have been any changes to family structures to include a large number of children. Most characters we're introduced to appear to be single children or maybe have one brother or sister.

So....where are the people coming from?

If we start from a population of 70K to a few million, Scott and co shouldn't be worrying about resistance forces, they should be trying not to start to death while they frantically look for a needle in a haystack that is the rare population center.

mech798 wrote:Okay, here's a question-- the OSM indicates that there are not a lot of survivors. I think the number ranges from 70,000 to a few million, although there are debates.

Not exactly. The surivor number may be accurate description for SDF:Macross OSM, but to call the colonists on Glorie in SDC:SC OSM "survivors" is way off base. It might apply to GCM, but its hard to say (IIRC) if the Inbit engaged in a mass extermination upon arrival (similar to the Rain in SDF:M), since there was an exodus of people to Mars and elsewhere.

Basically Robotech's population "issue" is the result of the two later contributors not experiencing a similar level event as experienced in the first contributor.

mech798 wrote:ut Robotech specifically didn't use cloning, and Shadow Chronicles makes it plain, however disgusiting the decision was, that the zentraedi were largely an isolated (ghettoized) group that more or less died out, to the point that having zentraedi blood is something that is seen as pretty unusual and worthy of comment.

With regard to the Zentraedi that isn't a Shadow Chronicles aspect, that is rooted in the show when Scott makes a comment that suggest the Zentraedi have all but died out as an option for the future prospects of the Invid.

mech798 wrote:Okay, here's a question-- the OSM indicates that there are not a lot of survivors. I think the number ranges from 70,000 to a few million, although there are debates. [...]

Er... are you using the term "OSM" correctly? I only ask because there isn't really any debate WRT the number of survivors in the original source material. Macross has stuck with the approximate total of 1 million human survivors, located aboard the SDF-1 Macross, in three of Earth's four Grand Cannons, on the moon, and in space colony clusters. That number got an enormous hike from the application of Zentradi cloning technology.

Both Southern Cross and MOSPEADA aren't definite about how many people live on Glorie (SC) or Earth (GCM). Glorie is said to be sparsely populated by Pioneer's liner notes for Southern Cross, but that's not surprising for a recently colonized world settled after the Earth was rendered uninhabitable by a nuclear holocaust. MOSPEADA's Earth is also an unknown quantity, as the outsystem colonies haven't had any real contact with the locals in upwards of thirty years thanks to the Inbit occupation... but it's also supposed to have been rendered much less populous than it is today by emigration to Luna, Mars, and Jupiter.

Robotech... now there's debate THERE. Mainly because the show repeatedly says there were only 70,000 survivors, and the RPG has a nasty habit of exaggerating the crew numbers, sizes, etc. of ships.

mech798 wrote:But...there are cities. A fair number of cities. We have monument, Rooks' hometown, the several settlements that were shown in the post rain of death era-- and they're mostly fairly large cities, certainly more than 10-100K apeice.

Well, to be entirely fair, the ones that were established after the war in Macross were not very large... but grew as the population exploded thanks to cloning and so on. The ones shown during Southern Cross are never seen in much detail, so it's impossible to say how large or how populous they were. MOSPEADA's cities were almost uniformly ruins full of squatters, while the rest of the population lived in small towns and villages.

At the very least, official Robotech sources suggest there were actually very few inhabited cities on Earth between the 1st and 2nd wars, and during the 3rd war it's said that one of Earth's most populous cities (the ruins of New York) had a population only in the thousands. The total population of Earth is referred to as only being in the millions at the end.

mech798 wrote:Not only that, but there is a lot of luxury materials-- Dana's dress, the "collection" of fighters we see in the NEw Gen episode, the food supplies in Detroit. These aren't just military bases, they're big cities with everything from plays to dress makers to confectionary stores, and every piece of candy you see has to have people, usually a lot of people, behind it.

Not necessarily... we see plenty of similar commodities in Macross City, and that was a city of just 56,000 (70,000 in RT). Give that advanced technology some credit, my friend. Take out some of the RPG's massive exaggerations and the necessary number of people to see what we see shrinks by orders of magnitude. (Seriously! Some of those MOSPEADA ships operated with crews of only a dozen or so at maximum capacity.)

mech798 wrote: large enough that you can afford to let Junior go to candy making store instead of pointing out that the Emperor demands his service for the adeptes ast- err that he has to join the UEDF.

Ironically, the RPG suggests this is not exactly the case... and that virtually all of the humans in space go into the military because there is pretty much no other career path open to anyone... and once the Invid get to Earth...

mech798 wrote:But Robotech specifically didn't use cloning, [...]

That's somewhat debatable... we know for a fact they had the means and the motive. In fact, the means in question are the focus of an entire episode.

mech798 wrote:and Shadow Chronicles makes it plain, however disgusiting the decision was, that the zentraedi were largely an isolated (ghettoized) group that more or less died out, to the point that having zentraedi blood is something that is seen as pretty unusual and worthy of comment.

's kind of cruel, ain't it? 's one reason I favor Macross... there's more of a peace and love thing going on, instead of KILL THE XENOS! I rather like Macross II's approach, where it's SO common for humans and Zentradi to intermarry that a pure-blood Meltran is something quite unusual.

mech798 wrote:We also note that the military has a high percentage of females in it, and there is no sign that the birth rate has increased, or that their have been any changes to family structures to include a large number of children.

Eh? We only see a very small cross-section of the military in any of the three sagas... so that isn't exactly a conclusion we can make safely. It's certainly more equal-opportunity than what we have today, but that may be a matter of simple necessity (fewer warm bodies means you take what you can get).

(Then again, it may still be an improvement on Southern Cross, where Jeanne comes right out and announces to the audience that her sole intention behind entering the military was to catch herself a husband and retire immediately.)

mech798 wrote:Most characters we're introduced to appear to be single children or maybe have one brother or sister.

But as we're only ever shown a very tiny cross-section of the population, consisting of just a few actual families and their close friends... we can't really conclude that as being typical either.

mech798 wrote:So....where are the people coming from?

From the plot holes, my friend... from the plot holes.

mech798 wrote:If we start from a population of 70K to a few million, Scott and co shouldn't be worrying about resistance forces, they should be trying not to start to death while they frantically look for a needle in a haystack that is the rare population center.

They do spend a fair few episodes roughing it... but honestly if you look at their course, they're spending a lot of time zigzagging around to population centers instead of making a beeline for Reflex Point.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not exactly. The surivor number may be accurate description for SDF:Macross OSM, but to call the colonists on Glorie in SDC:SC OSM "survivors" is way off base. [...]

"Refugees" might be a better word to describe the colonists in Southern Cross, as humanity had abandoned Earth and started to colonize extrasolar planets after a nuclear holocaust and its ensuing nuclear winter forced them to flee into space.

ShadowLogan wrote:It might apply to GCM, but its hard to say (IIRC) if the Inbit engaged in a mass extermination upon arrival (similar to the Rain in SDF:M), since there was an exodus of people to Mars and elsewhere.

Well, yes and no... the refugees who escaped into space during the Inbit invasion were sent to Luna or the independent colonies in the outer solar system, but that number is implied to be on the small side (tens of thousands, perhaps). The colonies on Luna, Mars, and Jupiter had been established for a while, and won their independence from Earth on the battlefield.

when I refer to OSM, I'm generally referring to the robotech as intended series, sans any adaptations from the RPG. (it's a bit difficult--we've got the original three series, the robotech combination, the rpg expansion on them, and the shadow chronicles). So my main question focused on the world as portrayed by the robotech continuity.

mech798 wrote:when I refer to OSM, I'm generally referring to the robotech as intended series, sans any adaptations from the RPG. (it's a bit difficult--we've got the original three series, the robotech combination, the rpg expansion on them, and the shadow chronicles). So my main question focused on the world as portrayed by the robotech continuity.

I personally run between 5 and 10 million after the rain of death. Since we see bomb shelters in Macross where the citizen of macross island ride out their fold trip to Pluto, and the fact we do see new york and other ruins which look generally intact enough to suggest survivors. but you will have arguments or debates over it. So your gonna have to pick and chose.

Seto wrote:"Refugees" might be a better word to describe the colonists in Southern Cross, as humanity had abandoned Earth and started to colonize extrasolar planets after a nuclear holocaust and its ensuing nuclear winter forced them to flee into space.

The Colonists though aren't from Earth, they are from Liberty. So I don't think "refugee" is any better in description as they are 2nd or 3rd generation removed from the event so may not see themselves in that manner.

The Zor might be closer to refugee/survivors than the colonists based on their situation having left Glorie and returned.

mech798 wrote:when I refer to OSM, I'm generally referring to the robotech as intended series, sans any adaptations from the RPG. (it's a bit difficult--we've got the original three series, the robotech combination, the rpg expansion on them, and the shadow chronicles).

OSM is taken to mean the Original Source Material, which refers to the original 3 separate series before they where combined. Robotech is generally taken to refer to the combined nature as you put it, the RPG is usually mentioned as the RPG, and Shadow Chronicles can be shortened to TSC.

mech798 wrote:when I refer to OSM, I'm generally referring to the robotech as intended series, [...]

Yeah, in this case that'd be the wrong way to use the term "OSM". For Robotech's purposes, OSM means the three original Japanese series. The original source material. If you wanted to come up with a term to refer to Robotech as, WRT its status, it'd probably be "Derivative Source Material", though that sounds a bit condescending...

ShadowLogan wrote:The Colonists though aren't from Earth, they are from Liberty.

Eh... that's actually not established anywhere. The timeline in the backstory is somewhat sketchy at best, in part because of the brevity of the liner notes that are our only insight into what happened before what we've been shown in the series proper, but it's not actually said that Glorie was colonized by Liberte... just that the planet Glorie (in Epsilon Eridani) was discovered second. The only person in the main series who is mentioned as having been from Liberte is Jeanne herself. "Refugees" seems like the best fit to me, because the settlers living on Glorie were doing so after fleeing the nuclear apocalypse which rendered Earth uninhabitable.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Zor might be closer to refugee/survivors than the colonists based on their situation having left Glorie and returned.

Perhaps, though per that same backstory material the Zor are actually humans who've been through the same situation TWICE... once on Earth, and again on Glorie. The second time around, they pulled the Megazone 23 maneuver and wandered space until their planet was livable again.

Why didn't the Invid just wipe out humanity when they started having problems with resistance groups? Corg was the one that had to take action in New York...

mechachap wrote:Why didn't the Invid just wipe out humanity when they started having problems with resistance groups? Corg was the one that had to take action in New York...

In the same episode it becomes apparent that the Invid have been studying humans as part of a research program as indicated by Sera. Given they are emulating the human form, and the Regis in "Metamorphosis" mentions potential hidden dangers in the form as a result of loss of contact with Ariel/Marlene, they may not want to off the originals just yet as it is also the form they appear to be heading toward.

mechachap wrote:Why didn't the Invid just wipe out humanity when they started having problems with resistance groups? Corg was the one that had to take action in New York...

Depending on whether you're asking the RPG or the series... the Invid either wanted humans for slave labor to work their protoculture farms and factories, or they wanted to observe humans in their evolutionary experiments.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

mechachap wrote:Why didn't the Invid just wipe out humanity when they started having problems with resistance groups? Corg was the one that had to take action in New York...

Depending on whether you're asking the RPG or the series... the Invid either wanted humans for slave labor to work their protoculture farms and factories, or they wanted to observe humans in their evolutionary experiments.

The series even mentions becoming "sharecroppers on an Invid PC farm" in "The Fortress". Depending on what Scott meant by "sharecroppers" as literal or code is open for debate, but given the fact they are rebels it looks more like "code" than literal.

ShadowLogan wrote:The series even mentions becoming "sharecroppers on an Invid PC farm" in "The Fortress". Depending on what Scott meant by "sharecroppers" as literal or code is open for debate, but given the fact they are rebels it looks more like "code" than literal.

What the licensed works talk about is quite a different picture from what the series shows... while the Invid do resort to casual brutality and exterminations every now and again, they're borderline apathetic towards humanity except for their experimental interest in evolution and occasional barter-based collaborations (usually fuel for service). The RPG and other sources tend to play the Invid up as cruel and thoroughly evil oppressors instead of the disinterested landlords of the series.

In all honestly, what do you think the population should be on Earth at this time, that makes sense? I'm thinking somewhere between 1/4 a million to a million at most, and even then it might be pushing it. And remember, this is all over the earth, and not counting and space colonies.

Well, I think it's difficult to say-- again since we have three series jammed together, there are a lot of things that don't seem to mix, especially when you add the retcons HG made regarding the zentraedi.

mech798 wrote:Well, I think it's difficult to say-- again since we have three series jammed together, there are a lot of things that don't seem to mix, especially when you add the retcons HG made regarding the zentraedi.

What rectons? The Zentraedi as far back as the 85 episode run are strongly suggested to have died out by the time of NG. The only version that doesn't have that is in the novel timeline IINM, but that post-dates the series.

Alpha 11 wrote:In all honestly, what do you think the population should be on Earth at this time, that makes sense? I'm thinking somewhere between 1/4 a million to a million at most, and even then it might be pushing it. And remember, this is all over the earth, and not counting and space colonies.

Now there's an open-ended question... because you're not going to find an answer that fits the dialogue the series presents without resorting to cheats like the unmentioned cloning of humans off-screen. The dialog in the Macross and Masters Sagas indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the orbital bombardment in the Macross Saga, but somehow that number has magically ballooned to "millions" within a few decades... at least, per dialogue from the New Generation. The habitual exaggeration of the scale of the New Generation's ships doesn't help either... the written stats which indicate these ships carry crews of thousands and mecha complements of several hundred don't line up with the animation of the New Generation or RTSC, which show those ships as having nowhere near the listed capacity for crew or hardware. The RPG exaggerates for good reason, since it's all about providing diverse settings (like the addition of non-canon rival nations on Earth in the post-1st war era). You just couldn't get that diversity if there were less than a million humans period...

As far as what I think the population should be, I'd have to say that it should only be a couple hundred thousand by 2044. Unless you've got a behind-the-scenes cloning operation running, humans don't breed at rates that would permit the population size to grow over 40x in just three decades, not counting the second major, apocalyptic war they had. Strip out the gross exaggerations of ship crew sizes and capacity and the entire ~400 ship UEEF fleet we see in Shadow Chronicles could be crewed by as little as 20,000 people, making a total surviving human population circa 2044 of a few hundred thousand much more tenable.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:In all honestly, what do you think the population should be on Earth at this time, that makes sense? I'm thinking somewhere between 1/4 a million to a million at most, and even then it might be pushing it. And remember, this is all over the earth, and not counting and space colonies.

Now there's an open-ended question... because you're not going to find an answer that fits the dialogue the series presents without resorting to cheats like the unmentioned cloning of humans off-screen. The dialog in the Macross and Masters Sagas indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the orbital bombardment in the Macross Saga, but somehow that number has magically ballooned to "millions" within a few decades... at least, per dialogue from the New Generation. The habitual exaggeration of the scale of the New Generation's ships doesn't help either... the written stats which indicate these ships carry crews of thousands and mecha complements of several hundred don't line up with the animation of the New Generation or RTSC, which show those ships as having nowhere near the listed capacity for crew or hardware. The RPG exaggerates for good reason, since it's all about providing diverse settings (like the addition of non-canon rival nations on Earth in the post-1st war era). You just couldn't get that diversity if there were less than a million humans period...

As far as what I think the population should be, I'd have to say that it should only be a couple hundred thousand by 2044. Unless you've got a behind-the-scenes cloning operation running, humans don't breed at rates that would permit the population size to grow over 40x in just three decades, not counting the second major, apocalyptic war they had. Strip out the gross exaggerations of ship crew sizes and capacity and the entire ~400 ship UEEF fleet we see in Shadow Chronicles could be crewed by as little as 20,000 people, making a total surviving human population circa 2044 of a few hundred thousand much more tenable.

Well you could breed humans that quickly, but using women like breeders like that wouldn't be all that great for them even with advanced medical technology (remember that even without that humans have easily managed over a dozen children in a family in the span of a decade). You'd also need an impressive educational system and devotion to the process to try and manage so many kids at once since you'd have WAY more kids than adults and would have to track bloodlines to protect against future inbreeding problems.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:In all honestly, what do you think the population should be on Earth at this time, that makes sense? I'm thinking somewhere between 1/4 a million to a million at most, and even then it might be pushing it. And remember, this is all over the earth, and not counting and space colonies.

Now there's an open-ended question... because you're not going to find an answer that fits the dialogue the series presents without resorting to cheats like the unmentioned cloning of humans off-screen. The dialog in the Macross and Masters Sagas indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the orbital bombardment in the Macross Saga, but somehow that number has magically ballooned to "millions" within a few decades... at least, per dialogue from the New Generation. The habitual exaggeration of the scale of the New Generation's ships doesn't help either... the written stats which indicate these ships carry crews of thousands and mecha complements of several hundred don't line up with the animation of the New Generation or RTSC, which show those ships as having nowhere near the listed capacity for crew or hardware. The RPG exaggerates for good reason, since it's all about providing diverse settings (like the addition of non-canon rival nations on Earth in the post-1st war era). You just couldn't get that diversity if there were less than a million humans period...

As far as what I think the population should be, I'd have to say that it should only be a couple hundred thousand by 2044. Unless you've got a behind-the-scenes cloning operation running, humans don't breed at rates that would permit the population size to grow over 40x in just three decades, not counting the second major, apocalyptic war they had. Strip out the gross exaggerations of ship crew sizes and capacity and the entire ~400 ship UEEF fleet we see in Shadow Chronicles could be crewed by as little as 20,000 people, making a total surviving human population circa 2044 of a few hundred thousand much more tenable.

See, this is more like it. Putting a little logic behind it, and we can get a good reasonable answer. That's what HG really needs to be doing in Robotech.

Nightmask wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alpha 11 wrote:In all honestly, what do you think the population should be on Earth at this time, that makes sense? I'm thinking somewhere between 1/4 a million to a million at most, and even then it might be pushing it. And remember, this is all over the earth, and not counting and space colonies.

Now there's an open-ended question... because you're not going to find an answer that fits the dialogue the series presents without resorting to cheats like the unmentioned cloning of humans off-screen. The dialog in the Macross and Masters Sagas indicate that there were only 70,000 survivors of the orbital bombardment in the Macross Saga, but somehow that number has magically ballooned to "millions" within a few decades... at least, per dialogue from the New Generation. The habitual exaggeration of the scale of the New Generation's ships doesn't help either... the written stats which indicate these ships carry crews of thousands and mecha complements of several hundred don't line up with the animation of the New Generation or RTSC, which show those ships as having nowhere near the listed capacity for crew or hardware. The RPG exaggerates for good reason, since it's all about providing diverse settings (like the addition of non-canon rival nations on Earth in the post-1st war era). You just couldn't get that diversity if there were less than a million humans period...

As far as what I think the population should be, I'd have to say that it should only be a couple hundred thousand by 2044. Unless you've got a behind-the-scenes cloning operation running, humans don't breed at rates that would permit the population size to grow over 40x in just three decades, not counting the second major, apocalyptic war they had. Strip out the gross exaggerations of ship crew sizes and capacity and the entire ~400 ship UEEF fleet we see in Shadow Chronicles could be crewed by as little as 20,000 people, making a total surviving human population circa 2044 of a few hundred thousand much more tenable.

Well you could breed humans that quickly, but using women like breeders like that wouldn't be all that great for them even with advanced medical technology (remember that even without that humans have easily managed over a dozen children in a family in the span of a decade). You'd also need an impressive educational system and devotion to the process to try and manage so many kids at once since you'd have WAY more kids than adults and would have to track bloodlines to protect against future inbreeding problems.

And it could have very well happen. Maybe not to that extent, though. Just look at what happen in the US after WWII. If it happen then, there would be a big chance of it happening after the Rain of Death.

Nightmask wrote:Well you could breed humans that quickly, but using women like breeders like that wouldn't be all that great for them even with advanced medical technology (remember that even without that humans have easily managed over a dozen children in a family in the span of a decade). You'd also need an impressive educational system and devotion to the process to try and manage so many kids at once since you'd have WAY more kids than adults and would have to track bloodlines to protect against future inbreeding problems.

Considering there's only really time to raise one generation to fighting age between the end of the first war, and the start of the second and third, you'd need every person on Earth to be having a family (and dialogue from the series suggests that there may not be enough women), that's just 35,000 breeding pairs. With an arrangement like that, each family would need to somehow have fifty or sixty children with no deaths in just thirty or so years.

That ain't feasible.

Alpha 11 wrote:See, this is more like it. Putting a little logic behind it, and we can get a good reasonable answer. That's what HG really needs to be doing in Robotech.

They try... but there's a limit to what they can do on their own, since they're not translators and they don't really have anyone whose job it is to ensure that the information they release is consistent the way some of the bigger mecha anime franchises do.

Seto wrote: With an arrangement like that, each family would need to somehow have fifty or sixty children with no deaths in just thirty or so years.

It might be possible, if the bulk of the off spring produced in the period are of the multiple birth (twin/triplet/etc, given the lack of duplicates likely fraternal) variety as compared to the norm. Though why the incident rate changed...

Seto wrote: that's just 35,000 breeding pairs.

Not quite. That assumes all of them are capable of having children (sterile, or age). Nor does it consider theoretical human-zentraedi off spring beyond Max/Miryia (I don't think it was common). Or those who may not want children, or who put it off (Rick & Lisa, ex). Given the role of women in the military in later arcs, it seems unlikely every available female was breeding as fast as possible (unless that was a way to put it off from societal pressure POV by enlisting).

ShadowLogan wrote:It might be possible, if the bulk of the off spring produced in the period are of the multiple birth (twin/triplet/etc, given the lack of duplicates likely fraternal) variety as compared to the norm. Though why the incident rate changed...

Given the resources present and the supposedly low number of human settlements on the Earth's surface seventeen years later, I think it's rather doubtful... to say nothing of a big problem involving having to literally tell thousands of independent women that they're just going to have to become literal baby factories. I imagine that'd cause quite a ruckus...

(The "get back in the kitchen" Tommy delivered to Lisa was insulting enough...)

ShadowLogan wrote:Not quite. That assumes all of them are capable of having children (sterile, or age). Nor does it consider theoretical human-zentraedi off spring beyond Max/Miryia (I don't think it was common).

True... though we don't exactly see many elderly folks in Macross City, it's reasonable to assume there were at least a few that moved there with their families. Likewise, I guess human-Zentradi pairings would probably not be counted, since they were so rare that by 2044 the mere idea that someone in the military is not 100% human comes as a shock to people who live in a setting where the only career is military service.

ShadowLogan wrote:Or those who may not want children, or who put it off (Rick & Lisa, ex). Given the role of women in the military in later arcs, it seems unlikely every available female was breeding as fast as possible (unless that was a way to put it off from societal pressure POV by enlisting).

Bingo.

This, among other reasons, is why I strongly suspect that there was some behind-the-scenes cloning going on. It's the only way to account for the MASSIVE boom in Earth's population between 2012 and 2044 that doesn't involve contradicting the dialog in some fairly grievous way.

Seto wrote:Given the resources present and the supposedly low number of human settlements on the Earth's surface seventeen years later, I think it's rather doubtful... to say nothing of a big problem involving having to literally tell thousands of independent women that they're just going to have to become literal baby factories. I imagine that'd cause quite a ruckus...

(The "get back in the kitchen" Tommy delivered to Lisa was insulting enough...)

The "GbitK" aspect is insulting on some levels, but on the other hand the baby factory could be seen as "patriotic" duty to shore up the human numbers. I do admit I don't like it though, but that doesn't mean it can't be done for the "greater good". I will add you suggested they need to produce 50-60 offspring each, I am just pointing out how they could achieve that end.

As when women do have children there is the possibility of multiple births naturally, plus environmental factors may push for outside assistance, and that can lead to high rates of multiple births IINM. Which could skew any estimate on population growth if the actual growth in RT had higher rates of multiple births than one assuming natural trend of 1 per birth.

Seto wrote:True... though we don't exactly see many elderly folks in Macross City, it's reasonable to assume there were at least a few that moved there with their families. Likewise, I guess human-Zentradi pairings would probably not be counted, since they were so rare that by 2044 the mere idea that someone in the military is not 100% human comes as a shock to people who live in a setting where the only career is military service.

I don't think we see many elderly folks in TRM saga either. NG may also fall in that realm.

As for h/z pairings I admit it may not be common, but it can shore up the numbers somewhat. With regard to the scene in question though, there are several ways that scene could be interpreted.

Seto wrote:This, among other reasons, is why I strongly suspect that there was some behind-the-scenes cloning going on. It's the only way to account for the MASSIVE boom in Earth's population between 2012 and 2044 that doesn't involve contradicting the dialog in some fairly grievous way.

I don't think it has to point to cloning going on. The dialogue can be interpreted in several ways, none of which really requires contradiction to occur unless every line of dialogue is meant to be taken literally (which we know it isn't).

I simply go with a much higher rate of survival. aprox 1 to 2 % population survival. or between 70 to 140 million people. It is the only way ther east of the show makes any sense at all.


I don't even have an issue with the original RPG sentiment of 300 million.

There are lots of reasons for this, but the biggest one is that the earth is obviously not just obliterated too much is intact in NG time to have killed that many people, too many people live in the middle of no where.

Humans obviously have very well developed shelter systems, and well, we are just annoying little rooster roaches and hard to kill.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote:Given the resources present and the supposedly low number of human settlements on the Earth's surface seventeen years later, I think it's rather doubtful... to say nothing of a big problem involving having to literally tell thousands of independent women that they're just going to have to become literal baby factories. I imagine that'd cause quite a ruckus...

(The "get back in the kitchen" Tommy delivered to Lisa was insulting enough...)

The "GbitK" aspect is insulting on some levels, but on the other hand the baby factory could be seen as "patriotic" duty to shore up the human numbers. I do admit I don't like it though, but that doesn't mean it can't be done for the "greater good". I will add you suggested they need to produce 50-60 offspring each, I am just pointing out how they could achieve that end.

As when women do have children there is the possibility of multiple births naturally, plus environmental factors may push for outside assistance, and that can lead to high rates of multiple births IINM. Which could skew any estimate on population growth if the actual growth in RT had higher rates of multiple births than one assuming natural trend of 1 per birth.

Well it's a flawed assumption that one you're pairing people off for breeding and two leaving things up to natural processes to produce those pregnancies. All you have to do is look at the Octomom for one of the more extreme examples of medically augmented child production to see how you can produce those multiple birth pregnancies AND it makes even the women who are too old to get pregnant still viable breeders as well as any other women who's inability to get pregnant isn't something that would prevent implantation of fertilized eggs from working.

Events like the near extinction of the species would result in more extreme responses to try and quickly repopulate and modern medical technology provides much faster methods than the standard methods of reproduction, especially if there was fear that more aliens could show up and a driving need to try and get as many new humans as possible produced to meet those new threats.

ShadowLogan wrote:The "GbitK" aspect is insulting on some levels, but on the other hand the baby factory could be seen as "patriotic" duty to shore up the human numbers. [...]

Considering the apparent profusion of career-focused women in Robotech, I honestly cannot see that being the case.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think we see many elderly folks in TRM saga either. NG may also fall in that realm.

We see a few highly visible ones in the New Generation, but they're mostly old soldiers.

Elthbert wrote:Humans obviously have very well developed shelter systems, and well, we are just annoying little rooster roaches and hard to kill.

If, per the show, there were only ~70,000 survivors in total, those shelter systems aren't quite as well-developed.

Nightmask wrote:Well it's a flawed assumption that one you're pairing people off for breeding and two leaving things up to natural processes to produce those pregnancies. [...]

I'm not so sure... look at the Hunters waiting decades to have a kid, or the other high visibility families that only have one or two children TOTAL.

Seto wrote:Considering the apparent profusion of career-focused women in Robotech, I honestly cannot see that being the case.

The thing is those career focused women are in the military, which might be seen as an "out" or a delay since you are also working for the greater good.

Seto wrote:We see a few highly visible ones in the New Generation, but they're mostly old soldiers.

I don't know if I would consider the Garfish crew elderly, certainly (late) middle aged but not elderly.

Seto wrote:If, per the show, there were only ~70,000 survivors in total, those shelter systems aren't quite as well-developed.

Per the show, we also know that it wasn't 100% of the surface that was hit. Indicating there are areas that may not be viewed as taking part in the holocaust, meaning if anyone lived there they may not count toward the 'survivor' count.

Nightmask wrote:Well it's a flawed assumption that one you're pairing people off for breeding and two leaving things up to natural processes to produce those pregnancies. All you have to do is look at the Octomom for one of the more extreme examples of medically augmented child production to see how you can produce those multiple birth pregnancies AND it makes even the women who are too old to get pregnant still viable breeders as well as any other women who's inability to get pregnant isn't something that would prevent implantation of fertilized eggs from working.

I think for genetic lines, the singe pairings might be the way to go.

I agree leaving it up to natural process can be an issue, and they might turn to outside assistance (as in your examples) depending on factors present in the environment that could push for a higher rate of multiple births (ex, if radiation sterilized people so they had to seek medical assistance for procreation).

ShadowLogan wrote:The thing is those career focused women are in the military, which might be seen as an "out" or a delay since you are also working for the greater good. [...]

But, as the military is established to be pretty much the only career path for anyone living out in space, and seems to be the principal career path open to people still living on Earth prior to the 2nd War, isn't that sort of at odds with the idea of "everybody's having dozens of children"?

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't know if I would consider the Garfish crew elderly, certainly (late) middle aged but not elderly.

Old enough to be drawn with most of the standard anime traits for the elderly...

ShadowLogan wrote:Per the show, we also know that it wasn't 100% of the surface that was hit.

Now that's one of those heavily debated topics... because the show says things like that the surface suffered "total annihilation", and two separate sagas affirm that only the 70k on the Macross survived.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Per the show, we also know that it wasn't 100% of the surface that was hit.

Now that's one of those heavily debated topics... because the show says things like that the surface suffered "total annihilation", and two separate sagas affirm that only the 70k on the Macross survived.

Except we know for sure that was not the case. Because Lisa Hayes survived.

Elthbert wrote:Except we know for sure that was not the case. Because Lisa Hayes survived.

Considering she was a Macross crew member, and the phrasing of the dialogue, she is not an exception. 70,000 survivors period. The same number found on the Macross. With the total number of "other" survivors worldwide being just two, both of whom were in a base miles underground... it's not looking good for the survival of the rest of the world if the dialog is taken at face value and the Earth ends up being "totally annihilated".

She was not a Macross Crew member, she was assigned to the Grand Cannon.

Also massive tracts of Jungles survive in the amazon, massive tracts of Jungle all have people in them.

Elthbert wrote:She was not a Macross Crew member, she was assigned to the Grand Cannon.

She was a Macross crew member who was basically on detached duty to the Grand Cannon at the personal insistence of her father... but, effectively, the dialog doesn't specify Macross crew member, it's just that we know the Macross was carrying 70,000 people and we're told flat-out that the total number of survivors is 70,000 on two different occasions in two different sagas. Barring the one (or two, if we count Edwards) known survivors who were rescued almost immediately after the bombardment, there's no explicit mention (and, indeed, explicit ruling-out) of the presence of other survivors.

Elthbert wrote:Also massive tracts of Jungles survive in the amazon, massive tracts of Jungle all have people in them.

Er... did you perhaps forget that Kamjin/Khyron's ship was had some fairly substantial plant growth on its outer hull, despite not being actually buried? That argues very strongly for that "massive" tract of jungle being something that grew up after the bombardment... something that DID happen in the original. (The official Macross timeline indicates that the reestablished UN Government began mass-cloning people, plants, and animals approximately three months after the bombardment ended.)

Seto wrote:But, as the military is established to be pretty much the only career path for anyone living out in space, and seems to be the principal career path open to people still living on Earth prior to the 2nd War, isn't that sort of at odds with the idea of "everybody's having dozens of children"?

It is unlikely the military is the only direct career path for anyone living in space. We see so little about the infrastructure/society I wouldn't call the military the only career path unless the military has taken over every role in society (including farming and providing the colonists mentioned in PttSC/Invasion comics).

Compared to TMS though, both NG/TRM sagas have a greatly reduced female presence shown in military uniform (NG only really gives a few episodes compared to the others, so it could be seen as skewed as TSC has women are present in larger numbers than NG suggests otherwise).

I don't think everyone needs to have dozens of children, but I don't think humnaity in RT has to resort to cloning to shore up the numbers given that the areas on Earth escaped destruction and the Zentraedi could breed with humans (they can also be assimilated to the point they are no longer thought of as "zentraedi"). IF they did though, there are ways to achieve that result without resorting to cloning if environmental factors made it difficult to conceive w/o assistance.

Seto wrote:Old enough to be drawn with most of the standard anime traits for the elderly...

That's debatable. People do age at different rates, so we can't base it purely on the standard they where drawn at. Look at Vince Grant in Shadow Chornicles, he has to be pushing ~60 at least (appears in FTS circa 2005 in the military so is 18 minimum most likely, TSC is 2044, or 39years, 39+18=57), but doesn't show it and that is globally getting into the "elderly" age range.

Seto wrote:Now that's one of those heavily debated topics... because the show says things like that the surface suffered "total annihilation", and two separate sagas affirm that only the 70k on the Macross survived.

It also establishes that a particular percentage of the surface was not destroyed though. If anyone is an area that was not directly involved with the bombardment, that aspect of the population would need not necessarily be considered "survivors".

We know NYC wasn't hit given the level of familiarity it demonstrates (Statue of Liberty, Carnige Hall, etc) to have survived into the NG period, and NYC has a population in the millions before the RoD. Since NYC wasn't subject to "total annihilation" as established later, it alone could provide millions of people to start with. That makes certain statement less literal of course, but it is one option (of many) to explain the population boom seen post-TMS that is never actually addressed. Though I wouldn't rule out limited cloning for food production and other recovery efforts for the environment (regardless those people need to eat and a self-sustaining bio-sphere or it won't matter how many people there are).

ShadowLogan wrote:It is unlikely the military is the only direct career path for anyone living in space. We see so little about the infrastructure/society I wouldn't call the military the only career path unless the military has taken over every role in society (including farming and providing the colonists mentioned in PttSC/Invasion comics).

Whether they can even be called colonies anymore is debatable... the Shadow Chronicles art book indicates that Earth militarized its offworld civilian assets during the second Robotech War. If we're talking canon we've yet to see any actual colonies or anyone who isn't militarily employed. The RPG takes it one step further and explicitly tells us that going into the military isn't just common, it's pretty much the only place to go. (Marcus sort of points this one out, stating that all the girls he and Alex know are pilots like them.)

ShadowLogan wrote:Compared to TMS though, both NG/TRM sagas have a greatly reduced female presence shown in military uniform (NG only really gives a few episodes compared to the others, so it could be seen as skewed as TSC has women are present in larger numbers than NG suggests otherwise).

True, it's open to debate whether there's actually a reduced female presence in the military in the 3rd Robotech War, since they're few and far between in the New Generation but make up disproportionately large portions of deck crew in Shadow Chronicles.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't think everyone needs to have dozens of children, but I don't think humnaity in RT has to resort to cloning to shore up the numbers given that the areas on Earth escaped destruction [...]

Whether they did or not is debatable at best... the dialog establishes total annihilation of Earth's surface.

ShadowLogan wrote:and the Zentraedi could breed with humans (they can also be assimilated to the point they are no longer thought of as "zentraedi").

This would be massively inconsistent with both the New Generation and Shadow Chronicles, and is therefore profoundly unlikely.

ShadowLogan wrote:Look at Vince Grant in Shadow Chornicles, he has to be pushing ~60 at least (appears in FTS circa 2005 in the military so is 18 minimum most likely, TSC is 2044, or 39years, 39+18=57), but doesn't show it and that is globally getting into the "elderly" age range.

How much of that is the animation style, though? Anime, and even fauxnime like RTSC, tend towards making characters look younger than they are so the audience can better relate to them. When someone's "old enough", age tends to hit them like a brick and turn them into instant elderly stereotypes. For a Macross example, look at Max and Milia as they appear in Macross 7. Both still look youthful even though they're fifty-plus, though you get characters who, once they turn 60 or so, get hit with the ravages of age all in one go.

This is probably exaggerated somewhat by Tommy's more American-comic-book style, which favors fanservice over all.

ShadowLogan wrote:It also establishes that a particular percentage of the surface was not destroyed though.

No it doesn't... the "sections" remark is, dialog-wise, part of the Grand Cannon's damage report.

ShadowLogan wrote:We know NYC wasn't hit given the level of familiarity it demonstrates (Statue of Liberty, Carnige Hall, etc) to have survived into the NG period, and NYC has a population in the millions before the RoD.

That's an assumption, not a fact, as I've pointed out in the past... we know that the survivors from Macross City had a bit of a habit of rebuilding things in familiar form.

Seto wrote:Whether they can even be called colonies anymore is debatable... the Shadow Chronicles art book indicates that Earth militarized its offworld civilian assets during the second Robotech War. If we're talking canon we've yet to see any actual colonies or anyone who isn't militarily employed. The RPG takes it one step further and explicitly tells us that going into the military isn't just common, it's pretty much the only place to go. (Marcus sort of points this one out, stating that all the girls he and Alex know are pilots like them.)

The only offworld civilian assets Earth itself militarized though where on the Moon in the show, and ALUCE-1 appears to have been abandoned prior to that. Colonies out in deep space may be a different matter.

As for Marcus/Alex, that again may just be due to Location, Location, Location and not representative of the human-off-earth-sphere.

Seto wrote:This would be massively inconsistent with both the New Generation and Shadow Chronicles, and is therefore profoundly unlikely.

I disagree. Scott's comment about the Zentraedi would only apply if the group remained as a distict entity and not assimilated to the point they are no longer thought of as Zentraedi. All TSC establishes is that human-Zentraedi (1/2 alien since they avoid the term Zentraedi) offspring occurs (which we know from TMS/TRM saga), but it not very common and/or noticeable by just appearance.

Though in all seriousness how Marcus/Alex didn't not know Mia Sterling was Max's Sterlings daughter, who from all indications is still with the Zentreadi Miryia, is beyond me. So I think their reactions stem more from her not being alien enough in appearance.

Seto wrote:How much of that is the animation style, though?

Which is part of the problem. They may be made to look older because they are run down and exhausted, but still not as old as they appear. We also have to consider that some of them may "dye" their hair funky colors (ex Scott and Lancer) like Zentraedi and Tirolians (who may or may not have that naturally).

Seto wrote:No it doesn't... the "sections" remark is, dialog-wise, part of the Grand Cannon's damage report.

Not the line I was referring to. Ep35 has the narrator establish something like 95% devastation (sorry I don't have quote handy).

Seto wrote:That's an assumption, not a fact, as I've pointed out in the past... we know that the survivors from Macross City had a bit of a habit of rebuilding things in familiar form.

It really is an assumption if NYC survived intact AND/OR if it was rebuilt, as the show establishes that devastation was actually at 95%. The total/100% aspect may be nothing more than rounding/hyperbole.

ShadowLogan wrote:The only offworld civilian assets Earth itself militarized though where on the Moon in the show, and ALUCE-1 appears to have been abandoned prior to that. Colonies out in deep space may be a different matter.

That's if they exist at all... Prelude's dialog isn't exactly consistent on that note, and Harmony Gold's two official statements about space colonization border on being mutually contradictory on the note of whether any ships were even completed, let alone launched.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for Marcus/Alex, that again may just be due to Location, Location, Location and not representative of the human-off-earth-sphere.

Name me another location then... there are only two kinds of location for the UEEF as far as we've seen (and, indeed, as far as the RPG seems to be concerned): military base and Invid-enslaved planet.

ShadowLogan wrote:I disagree. Scott's comment about the Zentraedi would only apply if the group remained as a distict entity and not assimilated to the point they are no longer thought of as Zentraedi.

But between the events of Prelude (which shows us that Zentradi are militarily segregated from humans in the UEEF), the dialog of RTSC proper (which establishes that alien-human hybrids in human society are unheard-of), and the implication of Scott's remarks in the New Generation (I doubt a rabid Invid-hater wants the Invid to integrate into human society, the "genocide" option is really the only one that fits), that seems pretty much impossible.

ShadowLogan wrote:Though in all seriousness how Marcus/Alex didn't not know Mia Sterling was Max's Sterlings daughter, who from all indications is still with the Zentreadi Miryia, is beyond me. So I think their reactions stem more from her not being alien enough in appearance.

Considering RTSC has retconned Zentradi into all being blue and seven feet tall, his confusion may be understandable... but note well Maia's choice of words. Marcus isn't amazed that she is half-Zentradi, he's amazed that she's half-alien, as in "hybrids aren't a thing we do".

ShadowLogan wrote:

Seto wrote:How much of that is the animation style, though?

Which is part of the problem. They may be made to look older because they are run down and exhausted, but still not as old as they appear. We also have to consider that some of them may "dye" their hair funky colors (ex Scott and Lancer) like Zentraedi and Tirolians (who may or may not have that naturally).

Or we can just excuse the odd hair colors as artistic license... though I've heard a couple fun theories from Gundam circles about funky hair colors being a side effect from being born and raised in space.

Seto wrote:That's if they exist at all... Prelude's dialog isn't exactly consistent on that note, and Harmony Gold's two official statements about space colonization border on being mutually contradictory on the note of whether any ships were even completed, let alone launched.

We know ships were completed. That the Pioneer mission ran into difficulty suggests they did launch, though weather they setup colonies would seem to be a given due to the mere fact the UEEF has been able to survive 15years cut off from Earth suggests they had to be sucessful at least once in order to supply all the resources they would go through.

Seto wrote:Name me another location then... there are only two kinds of location for the UEEF as far as we've seen (and, indeed, as far as the RPG seems to be concerned): military base and Invid-enslaved planet.

Other location/facilities almost have to exist in order to support the UEEF. That we don't see them does not invalidate their existance. I wasn't necessarily focused on types of locations (civil, military, etc), but rather the scope of their search. If they are confined to a certain location, the candidate pool of prospects is much slimmer overall.

Marcus and Alex would seem to have a closed social circle, since they only females they know are pilots, so unless the medical staff and other support personnel qualify as "pilots"...

Seto wrote:But between the events of Prelude (which shows us that Zentradi are militarily segregated from humans in the UEEF), the dialog of RTSC proper (which establishes that alien-human hybrids in human society are unheard-of), and the implication of Scott's remarks in the New Generation (I doubt a rabid Invid-hater wants the Invid to integrate into human society, the "genocide" option is really the only one that fits), that seems pretty much impossible.

I don't get the impression the Zentraedi in the UEEF are segregated, we only see one real unit (Breetai's) in PttSC. That certainly comes through with the RPG and the Bioroid Interceptor program, but even then it seems more like mission role than anything else since the Zentraedi (generally) seem more comfortable with certain interface types (RPG-BI), and the UEEF really doesn't seem to embrace the concept of a mixed mecha unit (mix mecha types operating in seperate units yes) forces the appearance of segregation could appear.

Nor do I think the dialogue in TSC/85ep establishes that alien-human hybrids are unheard of. Look at TRM saga, no one seems to make a big deal about Dana's lineage (certainly her behavior, and the two instances I can think of where others bring it up it doesn't come up as a negative factor), so 30years (15years after TRM) after human-Zentreadi start appearing it shouldn't be any big deal either for Mia by the time of TSC.

As for Scott, he would know that some of the Zentraedi formed alliances with humans and even integrated into society. So it is unlikely he is referencing genocide.

Seto wrote:Considering RTSC has retconned Zentradi into all being blue and seven feet tall, his confusion may be understandable... but note well Maia's choice of words. Marcus isn't amazed that she is half-Zentradi, he's amazed that she's half-alien, as in "hybrids aren't a thing we do".

Aren't those Zentreadi all MALE though. The animation has a pretty diverse skin tone range for the males, so it is possible that looking at a select small sample (as in PttSC), all those Zentreadi could appear a uniform blue-gray. Though IIRC, the females are more regular in the animation.

The Zentreadi are alien technically. Marcus/Alex reaction seems more on the order of Mia's appearance in connection to her lineage, as opposed to just her lineage IMHO. As they would have to be complete idiots to not at least consider her a relative of 3 other "Sterlings", which means she could be a 1/2-breed depending on how she relates to them.

Seto wrote:Or we can just excuse the odd hair colors as artistic license...

There is that, but in universe...

ShadowLogan wrote:We know ships were completed. That the Pioneer mission ran into difficulty suggests they did launch, [...]

Not necessarily... the curious wording of the Pioneer mission description doesn't actually state that colonization missions were launched or that any colonies were established. All it says, in truth, is that the Expeditionary Forces were exploring the galaxy with colonization in mind. I'd argue that that, coupled with the way the Angel-class is described as though they'd not been finished before being converted into warhead delivery systems and the Ark Angel's never going to be completed, that line indicates that the UEEF may have been scouting for a hospitable world or five to settle on but wasn't actually equipped (at the time) to establish a colony anywhere.

ShadowLogan wrote:though weather they setup colonies would seem to be a given due to the mere fact the UEEF has been able to survive 15years cut off from Earth suggests they had to be sucessful at least once in order to supply all the resources they would go through.

Again, not necessarily... the "new generation" (lol namedrop) of soldiers we see at the start of the New Generation acknowledge that they were born "out in deep space, on a robotech ship", rather than on a colony world.

ShadowLogan wrote:Other location/facilities almost have to exist in order to support the UEEF.

Support facilities doesn't mean colonies... the military compound in Tiresia wasn't a colony, nor was the shipyards in Tirol orbit, or Space Station Liberty, or the other factory satellites which the AotSC book alleges exist.

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't get the impression the Zentraedi in the UEEF are segregated, we only see one real unit (Breetai's) in PttSC.

But descriptions of the UEEF, both old and new, indicate that the Zentradi who joined the UEEF fell under Breetai's purview... and we see his forces presented as exclusively Zentradi. No Zentradi is shown or mentioned outside of them, except Miriya... and she will likely be eternally "just off-screen" for legal reasons.

ShadowLogan wrote:Nor do I think the dialogue in TSC/85ep establishes that alien-human hybrids are unheard of. Look at TRM saga, no one seems to make a big deal about Dana's lineage (certainly her behavior, and the two instances I can think of where others bring it up it doesn't come up as a negative factor), [...]

Nobody seems to remember her parents are Max and Miriya Sterling either... so we must take that with a little salt, especially in light of what has been canonically established as the later UEEF's anti-alien biases on the part of Leonard.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for Scott, he would know that some of the Zentraedi formed alliances with humans and even integrated into society. So it is unlikely he is referencing genocide.

Then his remark about wishing the Invid "go the way of the Zentradi" makes no sense in that context... he HATES the Invid with a passion. For him to wish that the non-humanoid Invid would interbreed with humans and become a part of human society doesn't fit with either the tone or the literal content of his dialog.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Zentreadi are alien technically. Marcus/Alex reaction seems more on the order of Mia's appearance in connection to her lineage, [...]

That's my point though... they're absolutely flabbergasted at the idea of an alien among them, and if their ranks were full of human-Zentradi hybrids, that a half-alien could look so human to the casual observer should be something they're well aware of. Instead, it's a profound shock, which indicates that not only are hybrids rare, but that the Zentradi in the Pioneer mission did not reproduce, or kept entirely to themselves.

Seto wrote:Not necessarily... the curious wording of the Pioneer mission description doesn't actually state that colonization missions were launched or that any colonies were established. All it says, in truth, is that the Expeditionary Forces were exploring the galaxy with colonization in mind. I'd argue that that, coupled with the way the Angel-class is described as though they'd not been finished before being converted into warhead delivery systems and the Ark Angel's never going to be completed, that line indicates that the UEEF may have been scouting for a hospitable world or five to settle on but wasn't actually equipped (at the time) to establish a colony anywhere.

The thing is Earth doesn't necessarily have to establish extra-solar colony worlds, there are several locations w/n the Solar System (Mars and Luna) that could be near term targets. That Scott mentions being on the surface of Venus, at least suggests Venus might also be such a candidate (subjected to some fast acting terraforming).

The Colony ships mentioned in Prelude may be the latest form, with earlier efforts using another approach instead of the all-in-one ship. Those ships though don't come across as having been deployed.

Seto wrote:Again, not necessarily... the "new generation" (lol namedrop) of soldiers we see at the start of the New Generation acknowledge that they were born "out in deep space, on a robotech ship", rather than on a colony world.

There are space colony types that do not require settling a world that would fit that dialogue line, as in a practical sense a space station can also double as a "ship" depending on location (ISS, Skylab, Mir, Salyuts all have to have their orbits boosted periodically, so one could think of them as qualifying as a ship) and vise-versa.

Seto wrote:But descriptions of the UEEF, both old and new, indicate that the Zentradi who joined the UEEF fell under Breetai's purview... and we see his forces presented as exclusively Zentradi. No Zentradi is shown or mentioned outside of them, except Miriya... and she will likely be eternally "just off-screen" for legal reasons.

The Zentraedi organization though strikes me less as forced segregation and more of organizational approach since the Zentraedi are also more comfortable with specific control setups familiar to them vs the ones humans use, at least for the most part in both old/new material I'm familiar with. Politics might influence the design aspects of their mecha, but they do not strike me as segregated units.

Seto wrote:Nobody seems to remember her parents are Max and Miriya Sterling either... so we must take that with a little salt, especially in light of what has been canonically established as the later UEEF's anti-alien biases on the part of Leonard.

Not quite. Col. Fredricks (GMP) does establish who Dana's parents are in Ep38. It is also a known fact that Emerson knew she was 1/2 Zentraedi (bluntly stated when discussing assigning ZP to the 15th, though he doesn't mention her parents), even Bowie knows who her parents are from her history lesson in Ep37 (and Dana reminds him in a later episode she is 1/2 alien).

Seto wrote:Then his remark about wishing the Invid "go the way of the Zentradi" makes no sense in that context... he HATES the Invid with a passion. For him to wish that the non-humanoid Invid would interbreed with humans and become a part of human society doesn't fit with either the tone or the literal content of his dialog.

That he hates the Invid is not in doubt, but "go the way of the Zentreadi" does not have to involve interbreeding.

Seto wrote:That's my point though... they're absolutely flabbergasted at the idea of an alien among them, and if their ranks were full of human-Zentradi hybrids, that a half-alien could look so human to the casual observer should be something they're well aware of. Instead, it's a profound shock, which indicates that not only are hybrids rare, but that the Zentradi in the Pioneer mission did not reproduce, or kept entirely to themselves.

It is also possible that they are more common, just that they don't advertise it like Mia did. Genetics being what it is though, we only have examples from two genetic sources (Max and Miryia, resulting in 2-3 offspring depicted and another mentioned), other human/zentreadi genetic sources may yield different results. Some of which may be more noticeable than others.

ShadowLogan wrote:The thing is Earth doesn't necessarily have to establish extra-solar colony worlds, there are several locations w/n the Solar System (Mars and Luna) that could be near term targets. [...]

Indeed, several of them probably were... though, in the apparent absence of any terraforming technology, it's more likely they went out further into the solar system than in.

ShadowLogan wrote:That Scott mentions being on the surface of Venus, at least suggests Venus might also be such a candidate (subjected to some fast acting terraforming).

I dunno, Venus ain't all that vast... I suspect that was just meant to be the sort of excited exclamation a space boy is supposed to have. Kind of the same narmy exclamations we got from Robin in the really old Batman comics.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Colony ships mentioned in Prelude may be the latest form, with earlier efforts using another approach instead of the all-in-one ship. Those ships though don't come across as having been deployed.

Therein lies a catch... the Angel-class is supposed to have been the first class of colony ships, but it's doubtful (or at least dubious, given the contradictory nature of the information available) that any were completed and launched on their intended missions. The successor class, after hostilities in space died down a bit, was never finished and its entire run (but for one incomplete ship) was crushed into a singularity. That rather leaves us without a colony ship to do the deed of extrasolar colonization... but settlements inside the Sol system could easily have been constructed using military or even sublight cargo ships.

ShadowLogan wrote:There are space colony types that do not require settling a world that would fit that dialogue line, as in a practical sense a space station can also double as a "ship" depending on location (ISS, Skylab, Mir, Salyuts all have to have their orbits boosted periodically, so one could think of them as qualifying as a ship) and vise-versa.

Those are usually classified as space stations... indeed, it's part of the ISS's name. I'd say that line should probably be interpreted literally... they were born on a starship of the line out in deep space.

ShadowLogan wrote:That he hates the Invid is not in doubt, but "go the way of the Zentreadi" does not have to involve interbreeding.

The implication is pretty obvious as "extinction"... and not the "let's get along and interbreed" kind, considering he has a "heroic BSoD" when he discovers Marlene/Ariel is an Invid in human form.

ShadowLogan wrote:It is also possible that they are more common, just that they don't advertise it like Mia did.

Possible, but unlikely IMO... especially since, if they were that common, you'd expect that the issue of parentage would've come up at some point.

Seto wrote:Indeed, several of them probably were... though, in the apparent absence of any terraforming technology, it's more likely they went out further into the solar system than in.

Most terraforming takes decades or longer to work. And they do have some technology that can be adapted for terraforming (use of orbital bombardment weapons in place of asteroid impactors for heating as an example, if they can mass produce kilometer long ships then they can produce sections of sun-shades as another, use ships to tow asteroid/comets, etc). Mars is the most likely world for it, but other worlds might work also with a bit of work (main drawback is amount of sunlight they receive in outer reaches, inner you need to reduce the amount of light).

Seto wrote:I dunno, Venus ain't all that vast... I suspect that was just meant to be the sort of excited exclamation a space boy is supposed to have. Kind of the same narmy exclamations we got from Robin in the really old Batman comics.

Venus is nearly the size of the Earth (in terms of gravity, diameter, and mass), its also much larger than Mars, so yes Venus does qualify as vast compared to nearly every rocky body in the solar system.

The exclamation aspect might work for other spots in the Solar System, but Venus is too exotic a location to work IMHO given its present conditions. Scott's body language has it comforting him (he does brighten up at the prospect), which doesn't fit with the conditions that would be present on the actual Venus. That means "Venus" has been subjected to some fast acting terraforming, or "Venus" is reference to some other location that isn't the 2nd Planet from the Sun.

Seto wrote:Therein lies a catch... the Angel-class is supposed to have been the first class of colony ships, but it's doubtful (or at least dubious, given the contradictory nature of the information available) that any were completed and launched on their intended missions. The successor class, after hostilities in space died down a bit, was never finished and its entire run (but for one incomplete ship) was crushed into a singularity. That rather leaves us without a colony ship to do the deed of extrasolar colonization... but settlements inside the Sol system could easily have been constructed using military or even sublight cargo ships.

The Angel-class may be the first purpose built colony ships though, with early efforts using stand-ins just like they do w/n the Solar System. If the UEEF is establishing facilities outside the Solar System, then they can also use the same approach for colonies.

Seto wrote:Those are usually classified as space stations... indeed, it's part of the ISS's name. I'd say that line should probably be interpreted literally... they were born on a starship of the line out in deep space.

True, but it doesn't take much to turn a space station into a space ship, and it certainly takes less to turn a space ship into a space station as far as functionality goes.

Seto wrote:The implication is pretty obvious as "extinction"... and not the "let's get along and interbreed" kind, considering he has a "heroic BSoD" when he discovers Marlene/Ariel is an Invid in human form.

But the Zentreadi aren't technically extinct at this point based on post 85ep material, so Scott can't be implying technical extinction.

Seto wrote:Possible, but unlikely IMO... especially since, if they were that common, you'd expect that the issue of parentage would've come up at some point.

Why? Its not like every character is known to start talking about their parents post R.o.D period. We know nothing about: Angelo, Louie, Marie, Nova, Sean, Scott, Rand, Lunk, Lancer, or Alex's parents, compared to: Bowie, Dana/Mia, Rook, Annie, Marlene/Marucs. That's 10 no to 7 yes for human main characters, and if we expand the list to include other human characters it really tilts toward the not knowing anything about parents.

ShadowLogan wrote:Most terraforming takes decades or longer to work. And they do have some technology that can be adapted for terraforming (use of orbital bombardment weapons in place of asteroid impactors for heating as an example, if they can mass produce kilometer long ships then they can produce sections of sun-shades as another, use ships to tow asteroid/comets, etc).

Considering that Robotech's level of technology is much closer to the modern world than most SF in which terraforming exists, it may be a matter of hundreds or thousands of years to produce a livable world. The absence of colonies may be a function of how every new Earth-like world they encountered already had an alien race living on it.

ShadowLogan wrote:Venus is nearly the size of the Earth (in terms of gravity, diameter, and mass), its also much larger than Mars, so yes Venus does qualify as vast compared to nearly every rocky body in the solar system.

Size matters less than the surface conditions... the lead-melting temperatures do not make for a great place to stay, and there's no available evidence to suggest the UEEF possesses the tech for terraforming.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Angel-class may be the first purpose built colony ships though, with early efforts using stand-ins just like they do w/n the Solar System. If the UEEF is establishing facilities outside the Solar System, then they can also use the same approach for colonies.

Possibly... but they'd need civilians, and we know that the UEEF wasn't exactly rife with them (a grand total of ONE).

ShadowLogan wrote:But the Zentreadi aren't technically extinct at this point based on post 85ep material, so Scott can't be implying technical extinction.

"Functionally extinct" may apply to them at present, since the females appear to have been a tiny minority and the only ones seen or mentioned (excluding Miriya) are male. There's not an overly large group either... there only seem to be a few dozen.

ShadowLogan wrote:Why? Its not like every character is known to start talking about their parents post R.o.D period.

Yes, but we're assuming these characters lived lives in which the events on-screen are but a small cross-section... if their childhood playmates, next-door neighbors, etc. were from mixed families with alien parents, they'd probably know. Instead of controversial children's books in the style of Heather Has Two Mommies, you might get Why is Jeanne's dad roughly eight feet tall and powder blue?. At some point, if aliens are intermarrying into humanity's surviving population, it IS going to come up... it shouldn't be a shock to two grown men who have lived in the same small fleet with at most a few hundred thousand people their ENTIRE lives.

Seto wrote:Considering that Robotech's level of technology is much closer to the modern world than most SF in which terraforming exists, it may be a matter of hundreds or thousands of years to produce a livable world. The absence of colonies may be a function of how every new Earth-like world they encountered already had an alien race living on it.

To turn a world completely into a new-Earth, yes will take longer. However, it is possible that in much shorter periods of time the planet can be made more tolerable in certain areas on the planet (ex. deep canyons on Mars are going to be made livable before the rest of the planet if subject to terraforming). IINM it would also depend on how much effort they want to expend to speed up processes.

Seto wrote:Size matters less than the surface conditions... the lead-melting temperatures do not make for a great place to stay, and there's no available evidence to suggest the UEEF possesses the tech for terraforming.

The lead-melting temperatures aren't the only thing that don't make it a good place to stay. You also have intense atmospheric pressure, though both are interrelated. The actual surface conditions (RL) and Scott's comment and body language only give 3 real options:
-"Venus" has been terra-formed to some extent to be surviable
-"Venus" is a geographic region on another planet (or maybe another planet, but that could get confusing if multiple planets have the same name vs region)
-"Venus" in RT, is much different than our Venus (given the Solar System had a PLANET called "Pamir" before the Zentreadi blasted it to rouble, it is a possibility)

I disagree the UEEF/UEDF does possess technology directly applicable for terraforming:
-They can use their ships to move asteroids and comets either by direct towing (cables, or simply pushing), gravity tractor (having their large mass simply be present), or impact/explosion (weapons fire possibly).
-those same beam weapons can also be used to replace comet/asteroids in some of the intended roles (mainly for heating).
-The ability to build large structures (Tok., Ark-Angel ships, even the SDF-3/4) and in numbers in space means they can build large mirrors (and shades) in space and transport it about and those shade/mirrors are going to be much simpler to produce that starships. Those mirror/shades can be used to adjust the amount of sunlight (ie energy) a given world receives.
-there is a domed city in TRM saga toward the end, which again points to being able to build large structures mirror/shades. Said structure also allows for regional terraforming of a world to IINM
-they do posses gravity control and fusion technologies, so they could theoretically jump start brown dwarf stars or gas giants into full fledged stars
-gravity control technology might also be useful in other areas
-salvaged Zentreadi life support systems (though human built can also work) may also be useful in terraforming on small scale to influence the environment, large scale would require vast numbers or longer time frame. Venus-like would likely require pre-work, but Mars-like may be more applicable in deep canyons
-even Shadow Technology might be useful in some applications (if it can "block" gravity as shown in PttSC) where the Trojan really won't matter
-geothermal energy tanks ("Frost Bite") would allow them to gather up the heat energy at Venus (or similar) and store it (transport/transmit it?), one such GEET isn't going to do much for Venus, but large scale deployment would. The lowering of temp, should also help with the pressure. A steady lowering to the surface as opposed to a straight drop seems the most sensible approach due to the pressure and temp encountered. This will also require additional support (like a sun-shade) and likely the importation of large quanities of water/hydrogen.

Seto wrote:Possibly... but they'd need civilians, and we know that the UEEF wasn't exactly rife with them (a grand total of ONE).

That we know of, unless the UEEF considers children part of its personnel roster they would have a pool of civilians (may be even more if civilians are used to care/educate them). The UEEF may work with other organizations in the 2010-2020s in regard to colonization, limiting their need for actual civilians in their ranks. When the Invid arrive there is an evacuation, though what the population break down is I don't know off hand.

Seto wrote:"Functionally extinct" may apply to them at present, since the females appear to have been a tiny minority and the only ones seen or mentioned (excluding Miriya) are male. There's not an overly large group either... there only seem to be a few dozen.

Agree, but we also have to remember that the females depicted in TMS can blend into human society much easier than the pool of depicted males meaning they could be there, but short of someone going "I'm Zentreadi" we'd never notice most of them in many cases. Which could influence their off-spring due to genetics.

Seto wrote:it shouldn't be a shock to two grown men who have lived in the same small fleet with at most a few hundred thousand people their ENTIRE lives.

That is the problem though. The idea of half-breeds shouldn't come as a shock to them unless they live extremely sheltered lives given Max Sterling is married to an alien (Miryia) and out and about with that fleet, Dana Sterling can also be seen roaming the halls in Prelude. Unless they have no idea on Mia's family name or its recent historical significance, which seems unlikely, there is no real reason for them to not even consider the possibility. That is why I think it has more to do with Mia's looks coupled with her heritage, and not just her heritage because there is nothing to show that she is 1/2-alien like they expect for some reason.

There is also the remote possibility that they don't think of the Zentreadi (and maybe even the Tirolians) as aliens due to genetics.

ShadowLogan wrote:To turn a world completely into a new-Earth, yes will take longer. However, it is possible that in much shorter periods of time the planet can be made more tolerable in certain areas on the planet (ex. deep canyons on Mars are going to be made livable before the rest of the planet if subject to terraforming).

True... though we have yet to see any evidence (or even mention) that humanity in RT does possess terraforming technology at ANY level of sophistication. The one time we see a UEEF installation that isn't orbital or an atmospherically-sealed surface base, it's on a moon with an environment like Earth's. It may simply be that, like in Tommy's chief inspiration Macross, they're just looking for worlds that are ALREADY Earthlike, and the "colonies" from the outer solar system are just resource stations.

ShadowLogan wrote:The actual surface conditions (RL) and Scott's comment and body language only give 3 real options:

4 options... the fourth being that it's simply a "space-y" exclamation intended to be clever or witty. Considering that 100% of the explicitly-provided evidence of bases/colonies off Earth involve going further out from the Sun (Luna, Mars, Jupiter, Neptune?), it seems doubtful the Venus reference is anything but a generic exclamation.

ShadowLogan wrote:That we know of, unless the UEEF considers children part of its personnel roster they would have a pool of civilians (may be even more if civilians are used to care/educate them).

Both the old and new material only show one civilian with the Pioneer Expedition, and that's a stowaway. Nothing in the description actually says anything about ESTABLISHING colonies as part of the Pioneer expedition, and in light of the issues they had with colony ships, it may be that they initially planned to scout out worlds and then let a bulk hauler like the old Angel-class make a single direct run. Later, it seems like they shifted to a different method due to their forces being needed elsewhere, and went to a "vagabond space city" approach like that seen in Macross, where the colony ship itself is doing the exploration.

ShadowLogan wrote:Agree, but we also have to remember that the females depicted in TMS can blend into human society much easier than the pool of depicted males meaning they could be there, but short of someone going "I'm Zentreadi" we'd never notice most of them in many cases. Which could influence their off-spring due to genetics.

We don't know if that's still true, though... I mean, most of the regular Zentradi seen in the series could've blended in just fine too. The problem is that Tommy retconned them to all be blue, barmy, and eight feet tall. Miriya, as the sole exemplar of the women, may have had a similar change made... but we'll likely never know, due to the legally contentious nature of using the character for HG.

ShadowLogan wrote:That is the problem though. The idea of half-breeds shouldn't come as a shock to them unless they live extremely sheltered lives given Max Sterling is married to an alien (Miryia) and out and about with that fleet, Dana Sterling can also be seen roaming the halls in Prelude.

I think that's proof of my point... there's nothing to indicate these people have led an extremely sheltered life, which leans more towards their view being that aliens should look alien, and thus that a hybrid that DOESN'T is a shock means there aren't many.

Seto wrote:True... though we have yet to see any evidence (or even mention) that humanity in RT does possess terraforming technology at ANY level of sophistication. The one time we see a UEEF installation that isn't orbital or an atmospherically-sealed surface base, it's on a moon with an environment like Earth's. It may simply be that, like in Tommy's chief inspiration Macross, they're just looking for worlds that are ALREADY Earthlike, and the "colonies" from the outer solar system are just resource stations.

The thing is humanity is demonstrated to have technology capable of being used in terraforming operations, it isn't used in that role, but it has the potential.

The mere fact they have sealed surface bases though indicates they are also settling (in some form) on hostile worlds that could be terraformed or subject to on-going terraforming. So they do not appear to be dead set on finding Class-M worlds.

Seto wrote:4 options... the fourth being that it's simply a "space-y" exclamation intended to be clever or witty. Considering that 100% of the explicitly-provided evidence of bases/colonies off Earth involve going further out from the Sun (Luna, Mars, Jupiter, Neptune?), it seems doubtful the Venus reference is anything but a generic exclamation.

I dismiss this as an actual option since it really doesn't fit the body language and the reality of conditions for it to be an expression as it has to be based on something. Just an open expanse have alot of other candidates that could be used and be just as clevery or witty without needing to resort to a reference to a literal hell.

Seto wrote:Both the old and new material only show one civilian with the Pioneer Expedition, and that's a stowaway. Nothing in the description actually says anything about ESTABLISHING colonies as part of the Pioneer expedition, and in light of the issues they had with colony ships, it may be that they initially planned to scout out worlds and then let a bulk hauler like the old Angel-class make a single direct run. Later, it seems like they shifted to a different method due to their forces being needed elsewhere, and went to a "vagabond space city" approach like that seen in Macross, where the colony ship itself is doing the exploration.

Invasion comic #2 "... one of the long-term goals of the Robotech Expedition is the advancement of colonization to presece the human race".

advancement of colonization would be to establish colonies, or at minium scout for it. The mere fact the UEEF also controls production of two different class of colonization ships (N-S missiles originally, Ark Angel class) points to them establishing colonies.

Seto wrote:The problem is that Tommy retconned them to all be blue, barmy, and eight feet tall. Miriya, as the sole exemplar of the women, may have had a similar change made... but we'll likely never know, due to the legally contentious nature of using the character for HG.

Did he actually turn them all blue, or is it just the group with Breetai on board that particular Tok. in Prelude? Exedore when he appears hasn't gotten a revised skin treatment in Prelude really (more of a lighter tone than in MB1 and series). Even Azonia keeps her skin tone in L&W #1, can't tell about Miryia as she is in tube masking her true color.

Seto wrote:I think that's proof of my point... there's nothing to indicate these people have led an extremely sheltered life, which leans more towards their view being that aliens should look alien, and thus that a hybrid that DOESN'T is a shock means there aren't many.

But what is the basis for them to have such a view. Is it actual experience or just belief. The fact Dana Sterling exists proves alien-humans don't have to look alien PRIOR to TSC, so there is no ration basis for such a belief.

ShadowLogan wrote:The thing is humanity is demonstrated to have technology capable of being used in terraforming operations, it isn't used in that role, but it has the potential. [...]

Apart from the kind that involves wholesale destruction to achieve a nuclear winter effect, can you cite an example? I'm genuinely curious.

ShadowLogan wrote:The mere fact they have sealed surface bases though indicates they are also settling (in some form) on hostile worlds that could be terraformed or subject to on-going terraforming. So they do not appear to be dead set on finding Class-M worlds.

That's somewhat debatable... the one surface base we've seen on an otherwise uninhabitable world wasn't exactly a colony or terraforming-oriented installation. It was, in practice, rather more like Area 51 "in space" where the UEDF tested technologies that could either go horribly awry or would otherwise be controversial (reflex warheads, furnaces). It also seems to have been, at least in a secondary capacity, similar to its OSM function as an early warning base.

ShadowLogan wrote:I dismiss this as an actual option since it really doesn't fit the body language and the reality of conditions for it to be an expression as it has to be based on something.

Yeah, because nobody's ever given voice to an exclamation that would be impossible in reality... this is, until we can establish that the UEDF/UEEF actually HAD any kind of terraforming tech up to the task of making Venus something other than completely and utterly inimical to all life, the safest explanation is simply to assume that they wanted something alliterative and can't figure out how to use Mars or Jupiter.

ShadowLogan wrote:Invasion comic #2 "... one of the long-term goals of the Robotech Expedition is the advancement of colonization to presece the human race".

advancement of colonization would be to establish colonies, or at minium scout for it.

I'm aware... and indeed, I've said much the same thing above. However, in the absence of an actual, viable colony ship or any civilian presence in space, all we can say of their mission with any certainty is that they probably had scouting for colonies on their to-do list. Whether they actually got around to it while they were spending decades exchanging fire with the forces of the Invid Regent, we cannot say.

ShadowLogan wrote:The mere fact the UEEF also controls production of two different class of colonization ships (N-S missiles originally, Ark Angel class) points to them establishing colonies.

No, it points to them seriously intending to establish colonies... thanks to the awkwardly worded text it's unclear if they finished the Angel-class ships and decided it was far too dangerous to launch them or simply never finished them in the first place. The Ark Angel-class was never even finished, and all but one example of the class is now parked neatly in a black hole. They clearly PLANNED to do it, but circumstances don't seem to have permitted them to ever actually DO it.

ShadowLogan wrote:Did he actually turn them all blue, or is it just the group with Breetai on board that particular Tok. in Prelude? Exedore when he appears hasn't gotten a revised skin treatment in Prelude really (more of a lighter tone than in MB1 and series).

Exedore seems to be the exception, rather than the rule... and we don't know if he's changed Miriya retroactively. I suppose it's also possible that there are traits that are visible to them "in-universe" that are not evident from the art style that help tell aliens apart from humans (I don't believe anyone's ever mistaken Rem or Cabell for humans).

ShadowLogan wrote:But what is the basis for them to have such a view. Is it actual experience or just belief. The fact Dana Sterling exists proves alien-humans don't have to look alien PRIOR to TSC, so there is no ration basis for such a belief.

These are soldiers who have lived in what is almost a purely militarized society all their lives, and served alongside many other soldiers. That the idea that there are aliens of any stripe in the UEEF comes as a profound shock to them ought to be a fair indication as to the rarity (or near non-existence) of hybrids and human-looking aliens.

Seto wrote:Apart from the kind that involves wholesale destruction to achieve a nuclear winter effect, can you cite an example? I'm genuinely curious.

I listed some examples previously (2 posts before this one). And the use of Astroid/comet impacts IS regarded as part of the terraforming tool kit, and there is no reason to take it to the level of nuclear winter effect.

Seto wrote:That's somewhat debatable... the one surface base we've seen on an otherwise uninhabitable world wasn't exactly a colony or terraforming-oriented installation. It was, in practice, rather more like Area 51 "in space" where the UEDF tested technologies that could either go horribly awry or would otherwise be controversial (reflex warheads, furnaces). It also seems to have been, at least in a secondary capacity, similar to its OSM function as an early warning base.

True, but the fact is we have no idea of the scope of all their facilities that haven't been visited yet.

All the activity at ALUCE-1 might be unintentionally terraforming the Lunar atmosphere (there's a more technical name for it, but it basically amounts to an atmosphere) into a thicker version IINM, and it would definitely be changing the composition of it.

Seto wrote:his is, until we can establish that the UEDF/UEEF actually HAD any kind of terraforming tech up to the task of making Venus something other than completely and utterly inimical to all life, the safest explanation is simply to assume that they wanted something alliterative and can't figure out how to use Mars or Jupiter.

And as I said, the UEDF/UEEF do have examples of technology they can use for terraforming.

Mars actually would make more sense than Venus for Scott's comment.

Seto wrote:Whether they actually got around to it while they were spending decades exchanging fire with the forces of the Invid Regent, we cannot say.

True, but it would seem that the N-S-missile types had to be deployed to gain the experience necessary to see them revised into the Ark Angel type. Though why they would take a colony ship into a contested space I don't know, it would make more sense to have science/recon ships establish viability and then send in a colony ship.

Seto wrote:Exedore seems to be the exception, rather than the rule... and we don't know if he's changed Miriya retroactively. I suppose it's also possible that there are traits that are visible to them "in-universe" that are not evident from the art style that help tell aliens apart from humans

But if Exedore provides an exception to the rule, there may be others, or Breetai's group may be the exception and not the norm. The known sample size is pretty small for Zentraedi in this period.

Seto wrote:These are soldiers who have lived in what is almost a purely militarized society all their lives, and served alongside many other soldiers. That the idea that there are aliens of any stripe in the UEEF comes as a profound shock to them ought to be a fair indication as to the rarity (or near non-existence) of hybrids and human-looking aliens.

It really shouldn't though. They should know that hybrids are possible and among them to some extent, that they might be uncommon (or in the minority) I don't dispute, but the knowledge exits that hybrids are among them. Given the anti-alien sentiments it doesn't surprise me that the general population of hybrids would keep quiet, but the Sterlings would have a much harder time.

ShadowLogan wrote:True, but the fact is we have no idea of the scope of all their facilities that haven't been visited yet.

As far as facilities go, what's described seems to principally be space stations... I rather doubt that Jupiter base is in Jupiter's atmosphere. That would be bad for all kinds of reasons.

ShadowLogan wrote:All the activity at ALUCE-1 might be unintentionally terraforming the Lunar atmosphere (there's a more technical name for it, but it basically amounts to an atmosphere) into a thicker version IINM, and it would definitely be changing the composition of it.

The moon doesn't have the gravity or magnetic field to maintain an atmosphere.

ShadowLogan wrote:Mars actually would make more sense than Venus for Scott's comment.

Yeah, but I doubt "as massive as Mars" trips off the tongue as gracefully as "as vast as Venus".

ShadowLogan wrote:True, but it would seem that the N-S-missile types had to be deployed to gain the experience necessary to see them revised into the Ark Angel type.

I'm not so sure... the only "revision" mentioned in their description was "It might be a good idea if these things could defend themselves". That doesn't necessarily require a "lessons learned" from an active deployment.

ShadowLogan wrote:Though why they would take a colony ship into a contested space I don't know, it would make more sense to have science/recon ships establish viability and then send in a colony ship.

Yep... though as far as they knew, given their encounters with the Invid, most of the naturally inhabitable worlds appear to fall under the category of "contested".

ShadowLogan wrote:But if Exedore provides an exception to the rule, there may be others, or Breetai's group may be the exception and not the norm. The known sample size is pretty small for Zentraedi in this period.

The known sample size also seems to consist of almost 100% of Zentradi in this period too...

ShadowLogan wrote:It really shouldn't though. They should know that hybrids are possible and among them to some extent, that they might be uncommon (or in the minority) I don't dispute, but the knowledge exits that hybrids are among them.

Unless hybrids are SO rare, so utterly UNHEARD-OF, that nobody even considers the possibility that they might be "among us". In a society where the human population has really gotten its numbers whittled down, it might be understandable if interbreeding with the Zentradi (or other aliens) was strongly discouraged to the extent that Dana and Maia might be the only ones, or part of a very small group.

That they don't LOOK overtly alien, and that Marcus gives voice to such, suggests that most Zentradi look distinctly non-human and that it's assumed (ignorantly) that a hybrid should be visibly alien as well. That Maia doesn't LOOK alien is a profound shock to Marcus, and if they were as common as you suggest, Marcus should know better.

ShadowLogan wrote:Given the anti-alien sentiments it doesn't surprise me that the general population of hybrids would keep quiet, but the Sterlings would have a much harder time.

If the Sterlings are the only ones, or part of a very small group, it would be that much easier for them to keep it quiet... though since Maia seems proud of her alien heritage, it doesn't appear a hybrid is under any pressure to present themselves as being "just human".