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N&SSpg108 has the original 'Lightning Form' special kata for Thai Kickboxing, an exclusive martial art that, like Ninjutsu, counts as 2 martial arts and must be taken as both primary and secondary. Y'know, in spite of that odd blurb about all Exclusive forms being that way...

MysticChinapg178 has another special kata called 'Greased Lightning available for Chao Ta, a non-exclusive martial art which (just guessing, might have missed another) might be the only martial art not available to any of the new OCCs introduced in MC, but is presumably available to the original N&SS OCCs, as well as various HU classes according to the conversion rules in the back.

"Greased" is described as a 'ripoffo' of "Form", and it's description I think might've been a typo. In my second printing (from 2001) it says "double the character's normal attacks per round that are delivered in the first round".

Being that the Thai Lightning Form is notable for delivering everything in the first ATTACK, would it be reasonable to assume that this was nitended to say "delivered in the first attack"?

The double attacks are pretty much offset by the 1/2 damage... though there could be some advantages and disadvantages to that I guess. If you were facing a bunch of weak opponents you could 1-hit then the double at 1/2 would be better. It'd also be good if you had some kind of energy aura or expulsion since you'd inflict twice as many hits with it, presumably only physical/strength type damage gets halved. It'd also be great against guys who lack an automatic defense since they'd run out of attacks defending against weak hits.

On the other hand, it's really suck you if you were hitting an opponent with an energy aura or some kind of spiked armor since twice as many attacks means you get zapped twice as many times. It'd also suck if someone opted to simultaneously attack you... though I don't really get why someone gets to SA you more even before their first initiative. Personally I think you should have to 'store' an attack before getting to use it simultaneously...

In spite of the decreased accuracy, Chao Ta's Greased kata might actually be better. While Thai's Lightning Kata lacks a strike penalty, it also cripples your defense, and Greased doesn't harm your defensive abilities at all except for lacking attacks to spend on dodges since you use them up all at the start.

Tor wrote:N&SSpg108 has the original 'Lightning Form' special kata for Thai Kickboxing, an exclusive martial art that, like Ninjutsu, counts as 2 martial arts and must be taken as both primary and secondary. Y'know, in spite of that odd blurb about all Exclusive forms being that way...

MysticChinapg178 has another special kata called 'Greased Lightning available for Chao Ta, a non-exclusive martial art which (just guessing, might have missed another) might be the only martial art not available to any of the new OCCs introduced in MC, but is presumably available to the original N&SS OCCs, as well as various HU classes according to the conversion rules in the back.

"Greased" is described as a 'ripoffo' of "Form", and it's description I think might've been a typo. In my second printing (from 2001) it says "double the character's normal attacks per round that are delivered in the first round".

Being that the Thai Lightning Form is notable for delivering everything in the first ATTACK, would it be reasonable to assume that this was nitended to say "delivered in the first attack"?

No, I think it's safer to say it simply doubles the number of attacks per melee you have during the first round of combat this form is activated in, but each one are -4 strike and half damage.

The double attacks are pretty much offset by the 1/2 damage... though there could be some advantages and disadvantages to that I guess. If you were facing a bunch of weak opponents you could 1-hit then the double at 1/2 would be better. It'd also be good if you had some kind of energy aura or expulsion since you'd inflict twice as many hits with it, presumably only physical/strength type damage gets halved. It'd also be great against guys who lack an automatic defense since they'd run out of attacks defending against weak hits.

It's good for spreading damage amoung a lot of opponents, yes. it can also, paradoxically, be good if you are fighting a very superior opponent with a bigger parry/dodge bonus than you have strike. while at first the -4 would make it seem ludicrious, there is a certain point at which the bonus's are so far apart that quantity matters more than quantity. if they have +12 parry and you have +6 attack, then you are only going to hit if you roll really high and they roll really low. doubling the attacks per melee round increases the odds that you roll an 18-20 and they roll a 1-7 at the same time, letting you hit at all.

On the other hand, it's really suck you if you were hitting an opponent with an energy aura or some kind of spiked armor since twice as many attacks means you get zapped twice as many times. It'd also suck if someone opted to simultaneously attack you...

Nothing makes you use it on an opponent with a fire aura or something...

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's safer to say it simply doubles the number of attacks per melee you have during the first round of combat this form is activated in

Then we're left questioning how often it can be used though. Would they have to switch to another kata and then switch back? Escape HtH combat range and stay out of it for an entire melee? Pretty big gap there. Every melee is the 'first melee' you use a HtH form in, essentially, because 'first' is completely subjective as there's no discrete barrier between combat sessions. If we don't see this as 'every melee' then the only alternative I can see is 'once in a lifetime' because all subsequent melees (even if they happen days later) are no longer first.

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's safer to say it simply doubles the number of attacks per melee you have during the first round of combat this form is activated in

Then we're left questioning how often it can be used though. Would they have to switch to another kata and then switch back? Escape HtH combat range and stay out of it for an entire melee? Pretty big gap there. Every melee is the 'first melee' you use a HtH form in, essentially, because 'first' is completely subjective as there's no discrete barrier between combat sessions. If we don't see this as 'every melee' then the only alternative I can see is 'once in a lifetime' because all subsequent melees (even if they happen days later) are no longer first.

I would say it's once per combat. It would need some GM audication for when one ends and another begins.

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I think it's safer to say it simply doubles the number of attacks per melee you have during the first round of combat this form is activated in

Then we're left questioning how often it can be used though. Would they have to switch to another kata and then switch back? Escape HtH combat range and stay out of it for an entire melee? Pretty big gap there. Every melee is the 'first melee' you use a HtH form in, essentially, because 'first' is completely subjective as there's no discrete barrier between combat sessions. If we don't see this as 'every melee' then the only alternative I can see is 'once in a lifetime' because all subsequent melees (even if they happen days later) are no longer first.

The greased lightning description quite explicitly says that it doubles attacks delivered in the first melee round ergo, it can be ussed only in the first round of any combat.

As far as I'm concerned, Erick or whoever edited MC had smoked reefer when he did the Chao Ta ... It's pretty obvious that a kata that doubles attacks at the expense of them being ineffective is not a ripoff of the Thai Kick Boxing's Lightning Form but of WU Shu's Mao's Pride kata.

Mao's Pride doesn't actually inflict any damage though, it's pure show. Chao Ta can actually be very effective and possibly better than Lightning Kata. I'd say it's clearly just a typo saying 'round' instead of 'attack'. Otherwise you can say 'okay I stop attacking' at the end of the melee and 'okay I'm beginning a new combat session' at the start of the next.

Tor wrote:Mao's Pride doesn't actually inflict any damage though, it's pure show. Chao Ta can actually be very effective and possibly better than Lightning Kata. I'd say it's clearly just a typo saying 'round' instead of 'attack'. Otherwise you can say 'okay I stop attacking' at the end of the melee and 'okay I'm beginning a new combat session' at the start of the next.

Just because YOUR not attacking doesn't mean its not combat. I would say that unless you can get everyone else to agree to take a break......
"CUT! Okay, Five minutes while the thugs change headbands, then we are back on."

Greased OLightning is a ripoff of Mao's Pride, the fact that the attacks can hit and do some damage are why it's a ripoff and not the original... otherwise, the writeup is quite coherent and doesn't suggest a mistake... plus, I don't see the kata doing BOTH a Lightning Form (all attacks at once first thing in the round) AND a Mao's Pride (double attacks, though less effective), which is what it would be if you're right... especially in a non exclusive form, since both those katas are special and come from exclusives.

Don't ripoffs tend to be inferior though? This is arguably inferior in some ways to the lightning kata, but it seems to trump Mao's pride. Mao's pride may not give strike penalties, but you don't do any damage, so while you might hit all kinds of targets, none of'm will break...

I never got that whole "does no attacks" + "doubles the number of normal attacks" part, seems like a contradiction. Even though it says you can't use it in combat I'm trying to figure if there's some use for it.

I know Wu Shu has WP katas, but I thought you couldn't use 2 katas simultaneously, so I'm confused how you can use WPs in Mao's Pride since it's also a kata. I thought without using a kata, you used raw WP bonuses and could only use the attacks of the form, but none of the other properties.

In this case the ripoff is better than the original, I guess that being from an art where you actually hit people all the time, trying to look impressive does that as opposed to one where you train by shadowboxing and performing movement sequences in the air.

Mao's pride is a gymnic demonstration, it aims to impress the audience into standing down by making it look like you can attack twice as much per round than you actually can... but the description on p120 of N&SS said so quite clearly.

and you can use weapons you have kata for with other special kata's : Isshin ryu teaches both staff and the fortess penetration Bassai kata... you can use that kata either bare handed of with the staff.

Although the intro does say "each kata can use the Bo Staff" ... it may mean without combining the HtH bonuses with the WP bonuses. This could just mean WP + Kata bonuses.

Isshin-Ryu is even referenced under WP katas on page 123, the example is given of learning to use a spear rather than the default staff... but it doesn't mention being able to combine it with other katas.

While weapon katas are unique in not forcing you to use them for an entire melee (meaning you could switch between two WP katas within a single round).

I seem to recall SOMEWHERE reading that only 1 kata could be used at a time... can't seem to find it though. Maybe it doesn't explicitly say that but the general impression I got was this, since it talks about slipping into and out of 1 kata and another.

Weapon kata is the exception, it's not a formal kata but a WP for use with martial arts.

It's an exception to the 'must use full melee' and 'limits attack or defense' parts, but isn't listed as an exception to the 'can't use other katas' limit implied by other katas by mention of switching from 1 to other.