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Ok I have run into trouble with the sea titan passing on his/her traits in our rifts game. I want some input on how pairings of sea titans and some other human races (ala lemurians and true atlanteans) might fair. I know the RCC is pretty cut and dry but I am trying to figure out from a role playing point of view. I am trying to figure out if they would pick up any genetic traits from the non-sea-titan race. Would the Sea Titan/Lemurian have gills when born? Would the Sea Tiatn/True Atlantean be able to receive mark of heritage while still young? I want to know what you guys on the boards think.

I read some other threads about the amazon+sea titan and how that would work but switching RCCs at puberty seems weird to me. Just looking for some guidance.

The Sea Titan RCC makes OCC possible after 250 years old, that just muddies the waters for me as far as saying that the RCC can someday maybe have an extra OCC. When so often it has been indicated that an RCC is the only way to progress for Racial Character Classes.

Sea Titan is its own race, as is Lemurian and True Atlantian, Human (vanilla), Ogre, Serronian etc. When your born pick one. This is EXACTLY why the 'no half breeds' rule was put into place.

Sea Titans can not get Tattoos, as they are not on the list of races that can.

If you get 250 years old, your allowed a special dispensation from the normal rules, and can switch from your RCC to an OCC

hum....
What the text says is that the Sea Titan is a mystically empowered subset of humans. Or to say what the word race means in the real world today, when talking about the different subset populations of humans.

Part of the reason behind this is that ST's do not show their titan'ness till they are in their adolescence, and that the ST's breed freely with humans.
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STxTA....
I would have the opinion that the marks of heritage would swing any child between the two to being a TA. With the magic of the tattoos blocking/negating the SN'ness from the ST parent. But others could have the ST'ness negate out the MoH tattoos to just normal tatt's.
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As for any other cross between ST's and other races that can breed with humans, the child would develop normally taking after one parent or the other till adolescence. Then the ST's SN'ness would come to the fore and their stats would change to that of a ST.
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Age: since nearly all the PC ST's will be youths this does not come into play too much.
Yes, IF your GM opt's into the optional changing class rules in the 'cuttingroom floor', then the char can change their class to an OCC. (Or if a Race has multiple RCC's then they could change their current RCC to a different RCC of that race.)

Except either the TA are human, then the child of a TA coupling with an ST is an ST too and unable to receive the Marks of Heritage, except as non magical tats, or they are different from humans (as their immunity to transformation suggests), and then such a coupling would be doomed to remain infertile.

Rifts Underseas p.113 "Strangest of all, they always pass their superhuman abilities and apparent immortality to their offspring even if one of the parents is an ordinary human. Furthermore, the offspring inherit ALL their parent's abilities, exhibiting an extremely consistent pattern of abilities.

Now, IMO, what that means is that if a Sea Titan were to have children with any other HUMAN (or other genetically compatible race, like the Kirn from Manhunter) species then the child would inherit ALL the parent's (yes that's PLURAL) abilities. If one parent was a True Atlantean, then as a youth they would seem like any other TA child except that if either parent was psychic then the child WOULD have that parent's psionics (or both parent's psionics if they were both psychic). The tattoos are magical in nature and could possibly be placed upon a Sea Titan child like any other TA child, but that I leave up to the individual GMs. If you're concerned about "power creep" then decree that the child will only inherit ONE parent's abilities/powers, the Sea Titans. Especially as the Sea Titans are TWICE as likely to have psionics anyway.

The Sea Titan genes for immortality would supercede the Atlantean genes for mere long life.
The character would be rolled up as a Sea Titan as far as stats are concerned, but their CULTURAL identity would depend upon where they were raised. If raised by Atlanteans, then CULTURALLY they are Atlantean, if raised by the New Navy then they are CULTURALLY "American".
Anyway, that's just my thoughts on it.

(P.S. I include the South American Amazons in this category too, as they ARE human, just altered by magic.)

To me, the text on the Sea Titan strongly implies that ANY race they can mate with and produce offspring from -Altess, Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons and even Naga -will get the powers (and immortality) of a Sea Titan when they reach physical adulthood, and overriding the genetics and/or special abilities of the non-Sea Titan parent.

To me, the only possible, logical exceptions to this MIGHT be (read: GM's call)

A] The Amazons if the child is a female (i.e., whose 'genetic magic' is stronger -the Sea Titan's or the Amazon's?)

or

B] The offspring of a Sea Titan and a Palladium God (does the relative strength or weakness of the god determine whose traits the child will end up with at adulthood?)

I appreciate the comments so far. I had the more liberal interpretation of reading from Sea Titans as well. That is what lead me to start to question how to proceed. I of course didn't see "Sea Titan" listed in the races that could have tattoos but that being said the spirit of the law is that Tattoos may be given to humans and subsets of humans (ogres, elves, atlantean etc.) As GM I have always been somewhat liberal letting the spirit of the law or rule, as I interpret it stand, but that of course is my prerogative as the GM in my game.

I haven't GMed in a long time though and so I wanted to see what others have to say. It appears to me that the idea in the book at least is that Sea Titans are basically human until sometime during puberty and that preserves their humanity. That is why I questioned whether an offspring of two human subspecies might have some genetic characteristics and/or trappings of youth (marks of heritage) from their parents separate subspecies. I am not so concerned with power creep because I am playing with some adults that are pretty easy going.

On the other point. Sea Titans also have the possibility of becoming a Master Psychic (ex: burster, mind melter, etc) and I am trying to square that with sticking only with the RCC as written. If anyone can offer some thoughts on how to resolve PCC/OCCs vs the RCC I am open to suggestions because this has me a little confused.

Thanks again all for any input.

Silvananthus wrote:I appreciate the comments so far. I had the more liberal interpretation of reading from Sea Titans as well. That is what lead me to start to question how to proceed. I of course didn't see "Sea Titan" listed in the races that could have tattoos but that being said the spirit of the law is that Tattoos may be given to humans and subsets of humans (ogres, elves, atlantean etc.) As GM I have always been somewhat liberal letting the spirit of the law or rule, as I interpret it stand, but that of course is my prerogative as the GM in my game.

I haven't GMed in a long time though and so I wanted to see what others have to say. It appears to me that the idea in the book at least is that Sea Titans are basically human until sometime during puberty and that preserves their humanity. That is why I questioned whether an offspring of two human subspecies might have some genetic characteristics and/or trappings of youth (marks of heritage) from their parents separate subspecies. I am not so concerned with power creep because I am playing with some adults that are pretty easy going.

On the other point. Sea Titans also have the possibility of becoming a Master Psychic (ex: burster, mind melter, etc) and I am trying to square that with sticking only with the RCC as written. If anyone can offer some thoughts on how to resolve PCC/OCCs vs the RCC I am open to suggestions because this has me a little confused.

Thanks again all for any input.

It seems pretty clear to me that the Sea Titan abilities are inherited ALWAYS, so any mating between a Sea Titan and an Amazon would produce Sea Titan children (male AND female) with whatever other abilities the parents have. Also a Sea Titan male has good chance of being able to defeat an Amazon so he'd still be around whe n the children are born so there would be an actual "male Amazon".
As far as Ogres, well I don't recall if they are compatable with humans, so I'll fall back on the "no half breeds" rule, however if they ARE compatable, then the child would be 100% human genetically and have the full Sea Titan abilities because the Sea Titan genes are 100% dominant (at least as far as the over all abilities, the minor stuff such as hair color, etc, are probably still random). If there was a union between a God and a Sea Titan then the child would STILL be a Sea Titan, genetically speaking, but would inherit the God's abilities as well potentially making that child even stronger than a typical Godling. The real catch is that Sea Titans are HUMAN so therefore they can ONLY mate and produce offspring with other HUMANS.
As far as the Marks of heritage go, I'd say that they could have them as a child, but once the Sea Titan abililties assert themselves then the magical regeneration abilities would erase them, so ADULT Sea Titans cannot have tattoos.
Concerning psionics, I'd say go with the "half other skills" rule, so if the Sea Titan gets the Master level psionics then they have to sacrifice half their OCC related skills due to time spent mastering their psionics.
The RCC Skills I would say are unique to the New Navy as the New Navy is the only place, currently, where Sea Titans exist in significant numbers and they receive the "training" as Sea Titans (they CAN become Navy SEALS or Marines instead of taking the RCC skils, but their ABILITIES remain the same).

Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

cornholioprime wrote:To me, the text on the Sea Titan strongly implies that ANY race they can mate with and produce offspring from -Altess, Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons and even Naga -will get the powers (and immortality) of a Sea Titan when they reach physical adulthood, and overriding the genetics and/or special abilities of the non-Sea Titan parent.

To me, the only possible, logical exceptions to this MIGHT be (read: GM's call)

A] The Amazons if the child is a female (i.e., whose 'genetic magic' is stronger -the Sea Titan's or the Amazon's?)

or

B] The offspring of a Sea Titan and a Palladium God (does the relative strength or weakness of the god determine whose traits the child will end up with at adulthood?)

I would say a sea titan and a god would likely result in a godling.

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

But is that Rifts canon? I don't recall if the conversion book said they were still compatable.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:To me, the text on the Sea Titan strongly implies that ANY race they can mate with and produce offspring from -Altess, Ogres, True Atlanteans, Amazons and even Naga -will get the powers (and immortality) of a Sea Titan when they reach physical adulthood, and overriding the genetics and/or special abilities of the non-Sea Titan parent.

To me, the only possible, logical exceptions to this MIGHT be (read: GM's call)

A] The Amazons if the child is a female (i.e., whose 'genetic magic' is stronger -the Sea Titan's or the Amazon's?)

or

B] The offspring of a Sea Titan and a Palladium God (does the relative strength or weakness of the god determine whose traits the child will end up with at adulthood?)

I would say a sea titan and a god would likely result in a godling.

Technically, Yes. BUT the physical stats would be Sea Titan not godling as the Sea Titan abilities ALWAYS transfer. So you'd have a Sea Titan with the abilities of their Deific parent.

Slight001 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Because I don't expect the male parent to take care of the baby...

Svartalf wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Because I don't expect the male parent to take care of the baby...

Yep. Unless the baby literally rips itself out of the mothers womb at birth, then their still has to be a female aroud to nurse it for the first year or two. Now it may be thet the baby is given to an ogre female after its birth, but that's all conjecture.

keir451 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

But is that Rifts canon? I don't recall if the conversion book said they were still compatable.

As per my RCB1, yes, they are.

keir451 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Because I don't expect the male parent to take care of the baby...

Yep. Unless the baby literally rips itself out of the mothers womb at birth, then their still has to be a female aroud to nurse it for the first year or two. Now it may be thet the baby is given to an ogre female after its birth, but that's all conjecture.

Yeah, but since ogres are not the kind to have kine about (not that a nursing infant can thrive on normal cow milk), nor are likely to have a nursing female about (human women dead, ogre ones infertile, so likely milkless), that would mean the baby is doomed in the short term (time to starve) if the mother dies at birth.

Svartalf wrote:

keir451 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:

Slight001 wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Ogres are definitely human compatible. It's PFRPG canon that the ogres are a subspecies of humans and compensate the infertility of their females by abducting human females and mating with them... I guess it's kind of same throughout the megaverse, though I have trouble understanding how the mothers (and babies) manage to survive if ogrebabies are proportionate size to ogres... I have to guess ogre babiess are human sized and the growth happens at puberty.

why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Because I don't expect the male parent to take care of the baby...

Yep. Unless the baby literally rips itself out of the mothers womb at birth, then their still has to be a female aroud to nurse it for the first year or two. Now it may be thet the baby is given to an ogre female after its birth, but that's all conjecture.

Yeah, but since ogres are not the kind to have kine about (not that a nursing infant can thrive on normal cow milk), nor are likely to have a nursing female about (human women dead, ogre ones infertile, so likely milkless), that would mean the baby is doomed in the short term (time to starve) if the mother dies at birth.

Yeah and even a race as relative uneducated as ogres would see the sense in keeping the females alive to produce more young. And hey, you may even have some women who LIKE it (Stockholm sysndrome or the like?). Now figure that Sea Titan female will NEVER reach menopause so she'll be fertile FOREVER!!!

And keep producing little sea titans... but for some reason, I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

Svartalf wrote:And keep producing little sea titans... but for some reason, I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

Ha ha! Yeah me either.

I hadn't thought about magical regeneration getting rid of the tattoos. Of course the tattoos aren't destroyed by the regeneration of the Chiang Ku dragons. I am inclined to think as a subset of humans they can get tattoos (at least the six that don't transform you in to MD.) I am also and tending toward thinking that lemurian features like gills etc would also remain intact despite not needing to use them after sea titan conversion at puberty.

I am also of the opinion that the RCC skills reflect their upbringing in the New Navy. As such I would say they that a Sea Titan raised in a different culture should be able to take OCCs or at least pyschic classes available in that culture (True Atlantean, Lemurian, etc) what ever it may be.

Svartalf wrote:And keep producing little sea titans... but for some reason, I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

If she were ever caught in the first place. I think the New Navy probabaly has some female service members but next to none in the front line combat roles, but a female Sea Titan is usually going to be stronger and tougher than a non augmented Ogre male anyway, and maybe even stronger and tougher than an augmented male, too, depending upon levels, etc.
If the Lemurian gills are considered a dominant genetic factor thant yes, they are most likely inherited as well, but when I Gm it, I rule that the Sea Titan genome overwrites things like that.

*smirks* it is good to see the 'If a sea Titan mated with a ?????? what would happen? topic come around again.

Svartalf wrote:And keep producing little sea titans... but for some reason, I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

Unless she into ugly men with bad body odor, wait I know a few gamers who fall into that one.

Just a few?

To address the OP though.... I tend to shy away of letting people cross breed races to mini max ability's/stats/what have you. Sea Titans are fun. They're meant to be.. well Sea Titans. Not a base super species to cross breed with other things to make even more powerful species.

Palladium itself takes a pretty strict line on crossbreeding to start with. That being said I tend to break the rule if the result is something interesting in a characters history, or would be interesting in play.

In the case of the Sea titans... I think that the 'main' reason, even if it's not spoken' to be cross breeding them, is to mini max stats and abilities. My kneejerk reaction to that, is to not allow it. ( Yes I realize that someone TRYING to Mini max skills and abilities and stats and stuff can come up with a story to cover their true purpose, but usually it's pretty easy to tell those sorts)

Story purposes? For the fun of the game, allow some cross breeds? Sure. Do it to just make a creature with a combo of stats and or abilities? No way.

Does that mean I'd never allow a Sea Titan Cross breed? no. I'd allow one, with an amazing story. I'd just not allow someone to stack stats and abilities. It'd be a strict "Either/or" thing, and as the Sea titans always 'breed true', via their write up, I'd have their stuff be Sea titan. Not Sea Titan+ what ever they'd crossed with.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:To address the OP though.... I tend to shy away of letting people cross breed races to mini max ability's/stats/what have you. Sea Titans are fun. They're meant to be.. well Sea Titans. Not a base super species to cross breed with other things to make even more powerful species.

Palladium itself takes a pretty strict line on crossbreeding to start with. That being said I tend to break the rule if the result is something interesting in a characters history, or would be interesting in play.

In the case of the Sea titans... I think that the 'main' reason, even if it's not spoken' to be cross breeding them, is to mini max stats and abilities. My kneejerk reaction to that, is to not allow it. ( Yes I realize that someone TRYING to Mini max skills and abilities and stats and stuff can come up with a story to cover their true purpose, but usually it's pretty easy to tell those sorts)

Story purposes? For the fun of the game, allow some cross breeds? Sure. Do it to just make a creature with a combo of stats and or abilities? No way.

Does that mean I'd never allow a Sea Titan Cross breed? no. I'd allow one, with an amazing story. I'd just not allow someone to stack stats and abilities. It'd be a strict "Either/or" thing, and as the Sea titans always 'breed true', via their write up, I'd have their stuff be Sea titan. Not Sea Titan+ what ever they'd crossed with.

But I wanted to play half sea Titan- half dragon vampire glitterboy pilot with my mulka sidekick!!!

eliakon wrote:Sea Titan is its own race, as is Lemurian and True Atlantian, Human (vanilla), Ogre, Serronian etc. When your born pick one. This is EXACTLY why the 'no half breeds' rule was put into place.

Sea Titans can not get Tattoos, as they are not on the list of races that can.

If you get 250 years old, your allowed a special dispensation from the normal rules, and can switch from your RCC to an OCC

Actually humans/lemurians/atlantians/amazonians and sea titans are all humans and can interbreed it says it in the description of each of those races. Same with ogres although they are not very fertile they kidnap human women to breed with. So the question is a valid one I believe in the sea titan description though is all their offspring become sea titans so I would err to just going that route of saying all their kids become sea titans.

Yes, the see titan entry is quite clear that it always breeds true and that all the offspring of a sea titan are of the same species, regardless of the human subspecies of the mate.

keir451 wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that the Sea Titan abilities are inherited ALWAYS, so any mating between a Sea Titan and an Amazon would produce Sea Titan children (male AND female) with whatever other abilities the parents have.

The text of the Amazon R.C.C. also has an "always" condition for the production of Amazon offspring.

Hence my statement in my previous post about it being GM's call as to what happens if a Sea Titan (male) mates with an Amazon (female), and they have a female child.

It would be a case of "magic/genetic Unstoppable Force meets magic/genetic Immovable Object" -again, GM's call.

If there was a union between a God and a Sea Titan then the child would STILL be a Sea Titan, genetically speaking, but would inherit the God's abilities as well potentially making that child even stronger than a typical Godling.

There is absolutely no canon evidence for this assertion.

Actual precedent of (Palladium) Gods mating with...... well, whatever they want, seems to invariably create Godling/Demigod offspring.

The real catch is that Sea Titans are HUMAN so therefore they can ONLY mate and produce offspring with other HUMANS.

Actually, humans in the Palladium Games Megaverse can mate with and produce viable offspring with:

• Ogres (These brutish, possibly proto-human creatures are officially considered close enough to do so)
• Altess (Hyper-genetically engineered humans that are officially considered close enough to do so)
• Tritonians (These creatures are the result of heavy genetic modification, but are nevertheless human)
• Seeronians (Essentially homo sapiens on another world, officially considered close enough to do so)
• True Atlanteans (Magically/genetically engineered humans; officially considered close enough to do so)
• Lemurians (Same as the True Atlantean above)
• Naga (These Creatures Of Magic have the ability to mate with and create viable offspring with humans)
• Palladium (True) Gods (These supernatural creatures have the unique ability to mate and create viable offspring with any living species)

As far as the Marks of heritage go, I'd say that they could have them as a child, but once the Sea Titan abililties assert themselves then the magical regeneration abilities would erase them, so ADULT Sea Titans cannot have tattoos.

1. Humans can get Magic Tattoos.

2. Sea Titans are still apparently "human," even though they eventually turn into something more.

3. Chiang-Ku can also get Magic Tattoos.

CONCLUSION: Since A]] being Human allows a creature to get Magic Tattoos, B]] Sea Titans remain human, and C]] the existence of the Chiang-Ku and their ability to have Tattoos is not adversely affected by them being Supernaturally Powerful MDC Creatures, there is nothing in either canon rule or logical observation to prevent a Sea Titan from acquiring or keeping his own Magic Tattoos unless a GM disallows it in their games.

cornholioprime wrote:

keir451 wrote:If there was a union between a God and a Sea Titan then the child would STILL be a Sea Titan, genetically speaking, but would inherit the God's abilities as well potentially making that child even stronger than a typical Godling.

There is absolutely no canon evidence for this assertion.

Actual precedent of (Palladium) Gods mating with...... well, whatever they want, seems to invariably create Godling/Demigod offspring.

The Demigod is written from the perspective as if gods only mate with and have offspring from humans, even when that's clearly not the case and Godlings would have to have basic racial traits of their mortal parent race otherwise you couldn't possibly have Godlings of an aquatic race for example because they'd drown or Wolfen Godlings because what you'd get would be a human Godling coming out not a Wolfen Godling. There's no reason that the nature of the Sea Titan wouldn't add to the nature of the Godling since their natural abilities are so dominant and in many cases overlap a number of basic godling features anyway.

I would think that Since the Sea Titan (adult form) is ineligible to possess tattoos there are two posibilties either
1) tattoos work until they become a sea titan, at which time they stop working
2) the tattoos don't work at all (presumably since the magic 'knows' that this isn't a normal human)

I would say that 2 is the most logical. The Sea Titan is not a normal human that turns supernatural. Its a different sub-race that starts with 'normal' attributes, SDC, and a small handful of special powers, that gains MORE powers as they age. They were not a normal human to start with.

eliakon wrote:I would think that Since the Sea Titan (adult form) is ineligible to possess tattoos there are two posibilties either
1) tattoos work until they become a sea titan, at which time they stop working
2) the tattoos don't work at all (presumably since the magic 'knows' that this isn't a normal human)

I would say that 2 is the most logical. The Sea Titan is not a normal human that turns supernatural. Its a different sub-race that starts with 'normal' attributes, SDC, and a small handful of special powers, that gains MORE powers as they age. They were not a normal human to start with.

Ogres are 'a different sub-race' as well, and they can get Magic Tattoos as well.

Truly, there simply isn't anything official in the makeup of a Sea Titan -not their 'lack of humanity' (they can mate with and produce offspring with everyone that a 'normal' human can, which makes them human enough in Palladium's eyes), and not their supernatural abilities (once again, Chiang-Ku can also get Magic Tattoos) -to stop them from getting those Tattoos.

cornholioprime wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would think that Since the Sea Titan (adult form) is ineligible to possess tattoos there are two posibilties either
1) tattoos work until they become a sea titan, at which time they stop working
2) the tattoos don't work at all (presumably since the magic 'knows' that this isn't a normal human)

I would say that 2 is the most logical. The Sea Titan is not a normal human that turns supernatural. Its a different sub-race that starts with 'normal' attributes, SDC, and a small handful of special powers, that gains MORE powers as they age. They were not a normal human to start with.

Ogres are 'a different sub-race' as well, and they can get Magic Tattoos as well.

Truly, there simply isn't anything official in the makeup of a Sea Titan -not their 'lack of humanity' (they can mate with and produce offspring with everyone that a 'normal' human can, which makes them human enough in Palladium's eyes), and not their supernatural abilities (once again, Chiang-Ku can also get Magic Tattoos) -to stop them from getting those Tattoos.

Supernatural abilities do prevent one from being able to use magic Tattoos as per Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos."
I'd treat them the same as Nightbane in that they seem relatively normal while young and become something more when they hit puberty. In the case of the Sea Titan, they are already pretty unnatural in that they are immune to disease even before becoming Supernatural. Here is the rule regarding Nightbane (Found Between the Shadows page 143) and their inability to use Tattoos even before they realize their powers: "Even latent Nightbanes cannot get magic tattoos (or, more precisely, can have tattoos imprinted on them but they will not work). This will reveal the fact that they are not truly human."

Pepsi Jedi wrote:To address the OP though.... I tend to shy away of letting people cross breed races to mini max ability's/stats/what have you. Sea Titans are fun. They're meant to be.. well Sea Titans. Not a base super species to cross breed with other things to make even more powerful species.

Palladium itself takes a pretty strict line on crossbreeding to start with. That being said I tend to break the rule if the result is something interesting in a characters history, or would be interesting in play.

In the case of the Sea titans... I think that the 'main' reason, even if it's not spoken' to be cross breeding them, is to mini max stats and abilities. My kneejerk reaction to that, is to not allow it. ( Yes I realize that someone TRYING to Mini max skills and abilities and stats and stuff can come up with a story to cover their true purpose, but usually it's pretty easy to tell those sorts)

Story purposes? For the fun of the game, allow some cross breeds? Sure. Do it to just make a creature with a combo of stats and or abilities? No way.

Does that mean I'd never allow a Sea Titan Cross breed? no. I'd allow one, with an amazing story. I'd just not allow someone to stack stats and abilities. It'd be a strict "Either/or" thing, and as the Sea titans always 'breed true', via their write up, I'd have their stuff be Sea titan. Not Sea Titan+ what ever they'd crossed with.

I appreciate the advice. Now it may not even come up the guy that was looking at it might be choosing something else. I am not too worried with the group that I am playing with about min/maxing munchkins. I have played RPGs with these guys for a long time. Heck I remember when TMNT first came out. We are really just in it to hang out together and blow off some steam and have some fun really. I can understand the palladium no half breed rule etc. I tend to apply the spirit of the law as I understand it and use common sense. I would also be the first to slap down a min/maxer or someone trying to pull "I don't care if this character is incredibly disruptive to our game the rules say I can do this" argument. As I said before though, I think our group will be pretty easy to manage. I really think they are just happy I don't mind GMing so they don't have to.

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would think that Since the Sea Titan (adult form) is ineligible to possess tattoos there are two posibilties either
1) tattoos work until they become a sea titan, at which time they stop working
2) the tattoos don't work at all (presumably since the magic 'knows' that this isn't a normal human)

I would say that 2 is the most logical. The Sea Titan is not a normal human that turns supernatural. Its a different sub-race that starts with 'normal' attributes, SDC, and a small handful of special powers, that gains MORE powers as they age. They were not a normal human to start with.

Ogres are 'a different sub-race' as well, and they can get Magic Tattoos as well.

Truly, there simply isn't anything official in the makeup of a Sea Titan -not their 'lack of humanity' (they can mate with and produce offspring with everyone that a 'normal' human can, which makes them human enough in Palladium's eyes), and not their supernatural abilities (once again, Chiang-Ku can also get Magic Tattoos) -to stop them from getting those Tattoos.

Supernatural abilities do prevent one from being able to use magic Tattoos as per Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos."
I'd treat them the same as Nightbane in that they seem relatively normal while young and become something more when they hit puberty. In the case of the Sea Titan, they are already pretty unnatural in that they are immune to disease even before becoming Supernatural. Here is the rule regarding Nightbane (Found Between the Shadows page 143) and their inability to use Tattoos even before they realize their powers: "Even latent Nightbanes cannot get magic tattoos (or, more precisely, can have tattoos imprinted on them but they will not work). This will reveal the fact that they are not truly human."

Well played, Giant2005.

I was looking for proof that Sea Titans can't have Magic Tattoos -not just say-so -and you found it.


Thanks for the find.

Giant2005 wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:

eliakon wrote:I would think that Since the Sea Titan (adult form) is ineligible to possess tattoos there are two posibilties either
1) tattoos work until they become a sea titan, at which time they stop working
2) the tattoos don't work at all (presumably since the magic 'knows' that this isn't a normal human)

I would say that 2 is the most logical. The Sea Titan is not a normal human that turns supernatural. Its a different sub-race that starts with 'normal' attributes, SDC, and a small handful of special powers, that gains MORE powers as they age. They were not a normal human to start with.

Ogres are 'a different sub-race' as well, and they can get Magic Tattoos as well.

Truly, there simply isn't anything official in the makeup of a Sea Titan -not their 'lack of humanity' (they can mate with and produce offspring with everyone that a 'normal' human can, which makes them human enough in Palladium's eyes), and not their supernatural abilities (once again, Chiang-Ku can also get Magic Tattoos) -to stop them from getting those Tattoos.

Supernatural abilities do prevent one from being able to use magic Tattoos as per Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos."
I'd treat them the same as Nightbane in that they seem relatively normal while young and become something more when they hit puberty. In the case of the Sea Titan, they are already pretty unnatural in that they are immune to disease even before becoming Supernatural. Here is the rule regarding Nightbane (Found Between the Shadows page 143) and their inability to use Tattoos even before they realize their powers: "Even latent Nightbanes cannot get magic tattoos (or, more precisely, can have tattoos imprinted on them but they will not work). This will reveal the fact that they are not truly human."

I am not trying to split hairs here but the fact that remains that they (Sea Titans) are SDC creatures before puberty. I tend to equate SDC with mortal and MDC with Supernatural. While I see your point that there isn't any official rule in the Palladium canon that says yes Sea Titans raised by True Atlantean parents can have magical tattoos there is precedent set already that species and subspecies of human can receive magical tattoos and to speak as if your opinion is the opinion of the game designers (unless of course you are, I know some of them frequent the boards) seems a little presumptuous to me.

I think the question of when they become supernatural creatures is the crux of the argument and in my opinion (and it is only my opinion, although I think it is a well reasoned opinion) there is a strong argument that they don't become supernatural creatures until they become MDC around puberty. Atlanteans typically receive their mark of heritage earlier than puberty and I don't see anyway that the fact that magic Tattoos as per Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos." indicates that preexisting tattoos should be obliterated or non-functional especially since there are supernatural creatures (the chiang-ku) that are able to use them. It does however make sense to me to say that no additional tattoos can be given after the transformation at puberty.

I am somewhat conflicted by your argument, Giant2005, about the Nightbane though, "Even latent Nightbanes cannot get magic tattoos (or, more precisely, can have tattoos imprinted on them but they will not work). This will reveal the fact that they are not truly human." This to me shows the Nightbanes as a good analog to Sea Titans except for the fact that we know that Sea Titans are a subset of human and on page 16 of the Nightbane Roleplaying Game book Nightbane parentage is described as "Who their parents are, and where they come from, remains unknown to them", We do know they aren't human!

Would you say that wormwood humans (who are MDC creatures) can't get or use Atlantean tattoos either if the situation to acquire tattoos arose in the game? I don't believe they (wormwood humans) are described as Supernatural Creatures. I just don't think under the obvious weight of evidence that Sea Titans can be dismissed at least in their youth as ineligible for the tattoos especially if mother was the TA and the father the ST and mom raised the child with the True Atlanteans only later finding out she was pregnant, possibly not even knowing that the father was a Sea Titan. More over having acquired functional tattoos I wouldn't have the preexisting tattoos no longer work after transformation I just don't see the logic in that.

You know what guys as go back over my last post I think it sounds a little antagonistic on my part and I really didn't want to come across that way.

I really appreciate all the opinions and the help from all of you. I have a good idea of what I am going to do with Sea Titans in my game should the questions arise. I am going to treat them as a subset of humans for most questions and follow the rule in Splynn Dimensional Market pg 107 as far as tattoos go. The spirit of the rule is pretty self evident in the text.

I hope I haven't come across as arrogant. I value the help, rulings and opinions of each of you. When I went my copy Splynn Dimensional Market I found there that Palladium has explained in more detail who can and can't receive tattoos. Humans with mutations cannot receive tattoos, be it super power (ala heroes unlimited), humans who have been altered to be supernatural creatures (Neo-Humans Amazons), Master Psychic Classes for the most part (True Atlantean Master Psychic can still have tattoos, it would appear that its ok if they receive them in their youth before they develop their psychic powers). This muddies the water for me some because my point was always that the tattoos occur while the hypothetical Sea Titan is young (being brought up in Atlantean Culture) and the Sea Titan would still be SDC when they would be receiving marks of heritage (if they were brought up in Atlantean culture).

Although I wish they would have just put Sea Titans on the list of can't have tattoos to remove any doubt (They remain the only example of all of these that don't get their "supernaturalness" until after puberty) It seems pretty clear cut that Tattoos are supposed to go to those races that are on the approved list not by default to all human subspecies regardless of their abilities. My thanks to Giant2005 on finding that information.

Svartalf wrote:Except either the TA are human, then the child of a TA coupling with an ST is an ST too and unable to receive the Marks of Heritage

STs are still human, and aren't even supernatural during childhood when the heritage marks are given, so they should be able to get them.

They would also still be able to use them when they transformed. As we know from the Chaing-Ku, and from Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters, being a supernatural being (or transformed into one) does not inhibit tattoo use. Just receiving them in the first place.

One could argue that a post-pubertal Sea Titan could not get MORE Tattoos, of course.

A good example of this would be True Atlantean Mind Melters. They retain Marks of Heritage they got in youth before they got all their psi, but their psi stops them from getting more.

keir451 wrote:if a Sea Titan were to have children with any other HUMAN (or other genetically compatible race, like the Kirn from Manhunter) species then the child would inherit ALL the parent's (yes that's PLURAL) abilities. I include the South American Amazons in this category too, as they ARE human, just altered by magic.

Except the Amazons from SA, since that explicitly overrides all the father's contributions if female, and exclusively prohibits all maternal traits if male.

cornholioprime wrote:whose 'genetic magic' is stronger -the Sea Titan's or the Amazon's?

The Amazons, their wording is more explicit.

keir451 wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that the Sea Titan abilities are inherited ALWAYS, so any mating between a Sea Titan and an Amazon would produce Sea Titan children (male AND female) with whatever other abilities the parents have.

Nope, the 'always' is in reference to normal humans, Underseas ignored Amazons.

keir451 wrote:If there was a union between a God and a Sea Titan then the child would STILL be a Sea Titan, genetically speaking, but would inherit the God's abilities as well potentially making that child even stronger than a typical Godling. The real catch is that Sea Titans are HUMAN so therefore they can ONLY mate and produce offspring with other HUMANS.

Humans can mate with gods, so being human doesn't mean you can only mate with humans. Gods can mate with Sea Titans, but you're in more of a 'pick the best of the two' when it comes to attributes (much like with Cosmo-Knights) because there's no allowance for 'relative to 3d6' treating Titan/Demigods attributes as bonuses.

keir451 wrote:As far as the Marks of heritage go, I'd say that they could have them as a child, but once the Sea Titan abililties assert themselves then the magical regeneration abilities would erase them, so ADULT Sea Titans cannot have tattoos.

There is no basis for this assumption, Chaing-Ku have regeneration and this doesn't happen, and tattoos can impart regeneration. They are tied to the life force, they heal with the flesh.

Slight001 wrote:why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Methinks Ogres really 'get' the Demons/Deevils and how they reincarnate.

keir451 wrote:the physical stats would be Sea Titan not godling as the Sea Titan abilities ALWAYS transfer. So you'd have a Sea Titan with the abilities of their Deific parent.

It's be demigod or sea titan, pick the highest, is the easiest solution, I'd say. Maybe you roll both sets of dice and pick whichever comes out better.

Sea Titan abilities don't transfer if the rules explicitly forbid it though, as the Amazon's do.

keir451 wrote:Unless the baby literally rips itself out of the mothers womb at birth, then their still has to be a female aroud to nurse it for the first year or two. Now it may be thet the baby is given to an ogre female after its birth, but that's all conjecture.

Wouldn't the Ogre Female need to be recently pregnant for it to be able to nurse though? Does it need to nurse at all? Do we know if other species (even a human variant) require it the same way humans do? What if Ogre babies are born with teeth and can immediately start eating bugs and mice?

keir451 wrote:you may even have some women who LIKE it (Stockholm sysndrome or the like?).

Svartalf wrote:I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

Ah, but if the ogre shows her a good time, she may remain "captive". There might be THIS type of boy or girl amongst Sea Titan(esse)s.

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos."

I was looking for proof that Sea Titans can't have Magic Tattoos -not just say-so -and you found it.

Actually, that quote doesn't say you can't HAVE tattoos, just that you can't RECEIVE them. It means you can't get new ones once you're supernatural, but if you already have them prior to being supernatural, you can retain them and continue to use them.

This is also why Vampires who had tattoos during their mortal life can continue to use them Be afraid.

Silvananthus wrote:The spirit of the rule is pretty self evident in the text.

The 'spirit' of the rule is more like ignoring the rules. We should actually discount the rule altogether, because Undead Slayers are 'humans altered to the extent of becoming supernatural' yet can continue to receive new tattoos.

Ergo we should just ignore that rule, since it negates the Undead Slayer as being possible.

As demonstrated by Giant, Supernatural mutant humans (and generally human variants not mentioned in the Tattoo rules) can't receive magic tattoos, period. Therefore, an ST can't get magic tattoos except as a house rule.

Also STs were the result of a direct supernatural influence, and ALWAYS pass on their traits, whereas Amazons are the fruit of "Atlantean alchemy and bio wizardry" and only ALMOST always pass on their heritage... given that both races are Carella creations, it's pretty obvious that ST takes precedence.

Also, there's no mention of Amazons ever receiving tattoos, even though they live with Atlanteans, ergo, it's pretty obvious they can't receive them, and they are closer to normal humans than STs, So it's pretty obvious STs can't get them either.

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Except either the TA are human, then the child of a TA coupling with an ST is an ST too and unable to receive the Marks of Heritage

STs are still human, and aren't even supernatural during childhood when the heritage marks are given, so they should be able to get them.

They would also still be able to use them when they transformed. As we know from the Chaing-Ku, and from Undead Slayers and Monster Hunters, being a supernatural being (or transformed into one) does not inhibit tattoo use. Just receiving them in the first place.

One could argue that a post-pubertal Sea Titan could not get MORE Tattoos, of course.

A good example of this would be True Atlantean Mind Melters. They retain Marks of Heritage they got in youth before they got all their psi, but their psi stops them from getting more.

keir451 wrote:if a Sea Titan were to have children with any other HUMAN (or other genetically compatible race, like the Kirn from Manhunter) species then the child would inherit ALL the parent's (yes that's PLURAL) abilities. I include the South American Amazons in this category too, as they ARE human, just altered by magic.

Except the Amazons from SA, since that explicitly overrides all the father's contributions if female, and exclusively prohibits all maternal traits if male.

cornholioprime wrote:whose 'genetic magic' is stronger -the Sea Titan's or the Amazon's?

The Amazons, their wording is more explicit.

keir451 wrote:It seems pretty clear to me that the Sea Titan abilities are inherited ALWAYS, so any mating between a Sea Titan and an Amazon would produce Sea Titan children (male AND female) with whatever other abilities the parents have.

Nope, the 'always' is in reference to normal humans, Underseas ignored Amazons.

keir451 wrote:If there was a union between a God and a Sea Titan then the child would STILL be a Sea Titan, genetically speaking, but would inherit the God's abilities as well potentially making that child even stronger than a typical Godling. The real catch is that Sea Titans are HUMAN so therefore they can ONLY mate and produce offspring with other HUMANS.

Humans can mate with gods, so being human doesn't mean you can only mate with humans. Gods can mate with Sea Titans, but you're in more of a 'pick the best of the two' when it comes to attributes (much like with Cosmo-Knights) because there's no allowance for 'relative to 3d6' treating Titan/Demigods attributes as bonuses.

keir451 wrote:As far as the Marks of heritage go, I'd say that they could have them as a child, but once the Sea Titan abililties assert themselves then the magical regeneration abilities would erase them, so ADULT Sea Titans cannot have tattoos.

There is no basis for this assumption, Chaing-Ku have regeneration and this doesn't happen, and tattoos can impart regeneration. They are tied to the life force, they heal with the flesh.

Slight001 wrote:why do you assume that the human female is expected to survive birth?

Methinks Ogres really 'get' the Demons/Deevils and how they reincarnate.

keir451 wrote:the physical stats would be Sea Titan not godling as the Sea Titan abilities ALWAYS transfer. So you'd have a Sea Titan with the abilities of their Deific parent.

It's be demigod or sea titan, pick the highest, is the easiest solution, I'd say. Maybe you roll both sets of dice and pick whichever comes out better.

Sea Titan abilities don't transfer if the rules explicitly forbid it though, as the Amazon's do.

keir451 wrote:Unless the baby literally rips itself out of the mothers womb at birth, then their still has to be a female aroud to nurse it for the first year or two. Now it may be thet the baby is given to an ogre female after its birth, but that's all conjecture.

Wouldn't the Ogre Female need to be recently pregnant for it to be able to nurse though? Does it need to nurse at all? Do we know if other species (even a human variant) require it the same way humans do? What if Ogre babies are born with teeth and can immediately start eating bugs and mice?

keir451 wrote:you may even have some women who LIKE it (Stockholm sysndrome or the like?).

Svartalf wrote:I don't see a sea titan female being held captive for long

Ah, but if the ogre shows her a good time, she may remain "captive". There might be THIS type of boy or girl amongst Sea Titan(esse)s.

cornholioprime wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:Splynn Dimensional Market page 107: "Any humans who have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures also can not receive magic tattoos."

I was looking for proof that Sea Titans can't have Magic Tattoos -not just say-so -and you found it.

Actually, that quote doesn't say you can't HAVE tattoos, just that you can't RECEIVE them. It means you can't get new ones once you're supernatural, but if you already have them prior to being supernatural, you can retain them and continue to use them.

This is also why Vampires who had tattoos during their mortal life can continue to use them Be afraid.

Silvananthus wrote:The spirit of the rule is pretty self evident in the text.

The 'spirit' of the rule is more like ignoring the rules. We should actually discount the rule altogether, because Undead Slayers are 'humans altered to the extent of becoming supernatural' yet can continue to receive new tattoos.

Ergo we should just ignore that rule, since it negates the Undead Slayer as being possible.

From a logical stand point I tend to agree with you Tor. To me it makes sense that SDC humans or an approximation (young Sea Titans) that are raised in an Atlantean family should be able to at least receive their marks of heritage or even up to the 6 tattoos limit. I would tend to say the Master Psychic example lends credence to the "tattoos acquired in youth remain active and viable throughout life" argument. From a metagame perspective though the rule appears pretty clear that if you aren't on the list explicitly then tattoos shouldn't happen for you. This seems somewhat exclusionary to me but it appears to be the way the game is designed.

The term "supernatural level abilities" is somewhat vague in Splynn Dimensional Market but I think it is supposed to be a catch all for humans that have some other abilities. Although the book doesn't address preexisting tattoos before a transformation. What happens if an atlantean became a cosmo-knight or bio-wizardy transformed an SDC atlantean into MDC or any other number transformative experiences.

Further it would also exclude Lemurians from ever having tattoos despite any friendship or "in game" reason, and not because it makes sense logically but because that is the way the game rules have been set. The rule on page 107 of Splynn Dimensional market clarifies and supersedes earlier rules and make pretty clear if your race isn't on the approved list then by the default rules you aren't allowed to get magical tattoos.

That being said after sleeping on it "I am going to house rule" in my game that if you get tattoos in your youth whatever might happen magical transformation, biovats from demon wars, you later become a master psionic, transformation by strange magical energies of a rift or whatever, you can still use your preexisting tattoos. It just makes logical sense to me.

Also can you give me more info on where the vampires can use tattoos from their previous "non-supernatural" lives is from. If that is canon then that to me is actually pretty convincing that tattoos from before a magical transformation remain intact and viable. It is also a good analog for the transformation a Sea Titan goes through during puberty, changing from natural to supernatural.

Svartalf wrote:As demonstrated by Giant, Supernatural mutant humans (and generally human variants not mentioned in the Tattoo rules) can't receive magic tattoos, period. Therefore, an ST can't get magic tattoos except as a house rule.

Adult sea titans can't. Prepubescent Sea Titans CAN, they're not supernatural yet.

Svartalf wrote:STs were the result of a direct supernatural influence, and ALWAYS pass on their traits, whereas Amazons are the fruit of "Atlantean alchemy and bio wizardry" and only ALMOST always pass on their heritage... given that both races are Carella creations, it's pretty obvious that ST takes precedence.

Surely if Carrella meant for Titans to trump Amazons, he would have mentioned this in Underseas. It's not as if Underseas and the SA books were distinct, he made references between them.

Svartalf wrote:Also, there's no mention of Amazons ever receiving tattoos, even though they live with Atlanteans, ergo, it's pretty obvious they can't receive them, and they are closer to normal humans than STs, So it's pretty obvious STs can't get them either.

I would agree that Amazons seem less supernatural than ADULT Sea Titans, but pre-adult Sea Titans have more in common with humans than Amazons do.

As long-lived as the Sea Titans are, they only have a brief window to get magical tattoos. I think I recall you can get at most 1 or 2 every 6 months to a year or something like that?

Odds are you probably won't be giving them to very young Titans either, since it could be traumatic. I suppose if a Sea Titan baby were captured by Splugorth and turned into a maxi-man it'd work though, at least until he became an adult and his genes interfered with new tats.

Long-lived beings are prime magic-learners though, so if they want to go that far, they lose out on that potential.

Silvananthus wrote:page 107 of Splynn clarifies and supersedes earlier rules and make pretty clear if your race isn't on the approved list then by the default rules you aren't allowed to get magical tattoos.

Silvananthus wrote:Also can you give me more info on where the vampires can use tattoos from their previous "non-supernatural" lives is from.

Nothing explicit indicates this, but it appears to me that anyone who can get a magical tattoo can use a magical tattoo. Racial limits only appear to prevent you from getting them in the first place. I've seen no mention of tattoos ever losing their powers under any situation.

Page 107 has 5 paragraphs. The fifth makes it clear that being a full T-man (7+ tats) prevents developing Master psionics, but that less than this (1-6) does not interfere, and you can still use them if you get Master Psi later. The fourth tells us that becoming a Master Psionic prevents receiving new tats.

The third is the primary of interest. We are told that MOST human mutants can't "utilize" (use) tats. So this does go beyond receiving them, and would prevent their USE even if one could previous use it. But we need to clarify what this 'most' refers to.

We know that it includes 'humans with supernatural level abilities'. Does that mean ALL humans with supernatural abilities? No, of course not. It was talking about MUTANTS, therefore only MUTANTS with supernatural-level abilities are blocked. It's not entirely clear WHICH powers this indicates though. One would assume that it would at least include the majors of Supernatural Strength and Lycanthropy. We also know that mutants without any powers (like the Talus and those psychic bone-face guys in Skraypers) can get tats, but it doesn't explicitly say that ONLY people without powers can get them, just that it's a solid guarantee. This leaves a gray area in the middle for GMs to decide which powers would interfere with tat-using and which would not. The GM would decide which he considers supernatural enough to cause interference.

The third paragraph has what can be considered to be a separate line of thought, beginning with "Any humans who have been altered". I can reasonably understand this to not be a continuation, and that 'altered' is referring to things besides mutation. After all, it's hard to consider Corrupt/Amazons/Neo-Humans mere "mutants" (although I guess they could be...) when there was conscious intent behind designing the trio.

This is also the part we must ignore, because it utterly conflicts with canon. "altered to the extent they can be considered supernatural creatures" includes Undead Slayers. Undead Slayers can't use tattoos if this is true, therefore we must ignore this rule.

This also says 'other human variants', and this includes Sea Titans, should be allowed to use'm. I would also argue that we should allow Amazons/Corrupt/Neos to use the tats, because the only reason it says not to is that supernatural humans can't use them, and that is complete nonsense, in recognition of Undead Slayers being able to.

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:As demonstrated by Giant, Supernatural mutant humans (and generally human variants not mentioned in the Tattoo rules) can't receive magic tattoos, period. Therefore, an ST can't get magic tattoos except as a house rule.

Adult sea titans can't. Prepubescent Sea Titans CAN, they're not supernatural yet.

Ok, I am buying what you're selling. I have always thought that logically while the Sea Titan hasn't gone through puberty that they aren't supernatural and therefore could receive tats.

Tor wrote:

Svartalf wrote:Also, there's no mention of Amazons ever receiving tattoos, even though they live with Atlanteans, ergo, it's pretty obvious they can't receive them, and they are closer to normal humans than STs, So it's pretty obvious STs can't get them either.

Tor wrote:I would agree that Amazons seem less supernatural than ADULT Sea Titans, but pre-adult Sea Titans have more in common with humans than Amazons do.

Again I am with you!

Now I want to know how you interpret the statement on p.107 of Splynn Dimensional Market "Remember, only humans, True Atlanteans and other human variants, Chiang-Ku, Ogres, and, to a lesser degree, Elves, can receive magic tattoos. Because to me that is the sticking point.

We know Human mutants can't get tats. We know that Superpowered humans can't get tats. We know master psychic humans can't get tats (unless they are pre-existing tats from atlantean heritage). We know humans that have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures can't get tats.

In my opinion a GM is going to have to make the determination of what constitutes "altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures" because that is the only way that a sea titan gets any tats.

Regardless of whether or not they are S.D.C. beings before puberty, they are always supernatural creatures and therefor cannot get magic tattoos. If someone tries to tattoo them, they'll die.

As for them being born with other traits, nope. They're Sea Titans.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Regardless of whether or not they are S.D.C. beings before puberty, they are always supernatural creatures and therefor cannot get magic tattoos. If someone tries to tattoo them, they'll die.

As for them being born with other traits, nope. They're Sea Titans.

Personally I'd say it'd be more like what happens with Nightbane prior to their Becoming. They can get the tattoos, but they never work.

The Beast wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:Regardless of whether or not they are S.D.C. beings before puberty, they are always supernatural creatures and therefor cannot get magic tattoos. If someone tries to tattoo them, they'll die.

As for them being born with other traits, nope. They're Sea Titans.

Personally I'd say it'd be more like what happens with Nightbane prior to their Becoming. They can get the tattoos, but they never work.

That is much more reasonable. It's said nowhere that magic tattoos are deadly to unsuitable recipients.

Silvananthus wrote:I want to know how you interpret the statement on p.107 of Splynn Dimensional Market "Remember, only humans, True Atlanteans and other human variants, Chiang-Ku, Ogres, and, to a lesser degree, Elves, can receive magic tattoos. Because to me that is the sticking point.

What is a Sea Titan?

Silvananthus wrote:We know Human mutants can't get tats.

No, we know 'most' human mutants can't get tats. It's not clear where the line is drawn though.

Silvananthus wrote:We know that Superpowered humans can't get tats.

No, we know that the 2 variants in Skraypers can get them if they lack powers. While one might read an inference that powers = no tats, all this is actually saying is that these variants are normal enough, so long as you don't muddy the water with powers, that they can get them.

There is no actual declaration that powers = tatblock, just that 2species + no powers = guaranteed tats. We don't actually know what powers would block it.

Silvananthus wrote:We know humans that have been altered to the extent that they can be considered supernatural creatures can't get tats.

Actually we don't, that's a statement we ought to ignore. Undead Slayers are humans altered to the extent of being supernatural, they can get them. The statement is bunk.

Akashic Soldier wrote:Regardless of whether or not they are S.D.C. beings before puberty, they are always supernatural creatures

Source?

Rereading this RCC, I actually can't find a single reference that actually calls them supernatural beings, even after they become MDC. Rather they are actually called "superhuman" and "mega-damage creatures", not supernatural. I think we assume these for a few (pretty logical, but ultimately wrong) reasons:

1) they have supernatural physical attributes (strength and endurance) but this isn't a guarantee, you can have supernatural attributes without being a 'supernatural being'

2) they are presumably vulnerable to supernatural poisons (but supernatural things bypassing an immunity doesn't mean YOU are supernatural)

3) things that do double to supernatural beings do double to them also (but this would not need to be mentioned if they actually WERE supernatural)

4) abilities/powers/spells that detect sepernatural will sense their presence (again, if they were supernatural, you could simply say 'they are supernatural' and not need to mention this)

I conclude from this information that Sea Titans are not actually supernatural creatures. This makes sense considering the definitions which Palladium has provided about them, such as their tendency to not procreate like creatures of magic do. Instead, these are humans altered with supernatural abilities that make them read like supernaturals, but it is a false positive because they are not genuinely supernatural. So while they ring the buzzers and take the weapon whams, they are not limited in the other ways that supernatural beings are.

Akashic Soldier wrote:and therefor cannot get magic tattoos. If someone tries to tattoo them, they'll die.

lolwut... source?

Akashic Soldier wrote:As for them being born with other traits, nope. They're Sea Titans.

Pretty inclined to agree here, it seems to override everything.

I did figure out one solution for the Amazon v. Titan dilemma though: all their offspring are boys. Problem solved. We know that Amazons can give birth to males of father species and female Amazons, and we know SeaTitan offspring are always SeaTitans, so the only resolution which satisfies both demands is that all offspring are male Sea Titans.

BTW does anyone know where I can find information about that strange Seahorse creature on page 3 of Underseas? I don't recall seeing the image before.

I've seen some tattoos that should have killed the 'artist' and the person that had them put on their body... but yeah, I agree with those above. They could get the tattoos but it'd just be a tattoo. The thing wouldn't blow up their head or anything.

@ Tor; Some interesting points over all. I agree that a prepubescent Sea Titan child could receive magic tattos, wether or not they continue to work once the child reaches puberty is another question. You say Underseas "ignored" the Amazons, but it also "ignored" Atlanteans as well.
Genetically and biologicallly speaking humans can only mate with other humans, the gods usually take on mortal aspect when they interact with humans so that may be why they can producue offspring, but the Godling concept was based (as Nightmask said) upon Gods mating with relatively normal (as in SDC) beings which was why the child was typically superior. There are no "rules" (as far as I know, I could be wrong) for the offspring of a God and say, a dragon or other supernatural being. So I just followed what the books say regarding the fact that Sea Titans abilities are consistant. They'd still be considered a "godling", but their primary set of attributes would most likely some form their Sea Titan parent. The same concept goes for Amazons, they were written from the standpoint of interacting with your average human male (Atlantean average or non Atlantean average), and to match their "legend", neither Kevin nor Carella seemed to think about the possibility of a non-normal mating. So it winds up being a "Gm's Call".
I, personally, don't know of any Palladium description regarding the birth cycle of Ogres or what their infants are like, I just focused on the phrase "proto-humans" and figured that ogre offspring are probably similar to Homo Sapiens offspring in their development cycle so they would require nursing early on.
The tattoos are another one of those "it says this, but it doesn't explicitly exclude that" scenarios that Palladium is infamous for. The spirit of the concept was for Chiang-Ku dragons and Atlanteans and other more "normal" humans/human-like creatures to be able to benefit from the tattoos. It was also written WELL before Underseas even came out (which may be another factor). So it's hard to say whether or not ADULT Sea Titans can receive and retain that kind of magic, therefore it winds up being another "GM's Call".

keir451 wrote:@ Tor; Some interesting points over all. I agree that a prepubescent Sea Titan child could receive magic tattos, wether or not they continue to work once the child reaches puberty is another question. You say Underseas "ignored" the Amazons, but it also "ignored" Atlanteans as well.
Genetically and biologicallly speaking humans can only mate with other humans, the gods usually take on mortal aspect when they interact with humans so that may be why they can producue offspring, but the Godling concept was based (as Nightmask said) upon Gods mating with relatively normal (as in SDC) beings which was why the child was typically superior. There are no "rules" (as far as I know, I could be wrong) for the offspring of a God and say, a dragon or other supernatural being. So I just followed what the books say regarding the fact that Sea Titans abilities are consistant. They'd still be considered a "godling", but their primary set of attributes would most likely some form their Sea Titan parent. The same concept goes for Amazons, they were written from the standpoint of interacting with your average human male (Atlantean average or non Atlantean average), and to match their "legend", neither Kevin nor Carella seemed to think about the possibility of a non-normal mating. So it winds up being a "Gm's Call".
I, personally, don't know of any Palladium description regarding the birth cycle of Ogres or what their infants are like, I just focused on the phrase "proto-humans" and figured that ogre offspring are probably similar to Homo Sapiens offspring in their development cycle so they would require nursing early on.
The tattoos are another one of those "it says this, but it doesn't explicitly exclude that" scenarios that Palladium is infamous for. The spirit of the concept was for Chiang-Ku dragons and Atlanteans and other more "normal" humans/human-like creatures to be able to benefit from the tattoos. It was also written WELL before Underseas even came out (which may be another factor). So it's hard to say whether or not ADULT Sea Titans can receive and retain that kind of magic, therefore it winds up being another "GM's Call".

The fact that tattoo magic was created before many of the other books is the point of the problem, and Palladium has tried to update it with Splynn Dimensional Market and give clearer guidelines, but as I read them again and again I think that they are purposefully vague so that a GM can make that call in his game. There are many examples of humans that have been altered in some way (Lemurians, Atlanteans, Sea Titans, Wormwood Humans, Humans from Megalopolis/Olympia, Human Mutants, Altess, etc) and simply saying that if they are "supernatural" they can't receive tats really makes it difficult to interpret. We need to accept it is the GM's call or we need palladium to define what supernatural means.

I will say this though I have been backward and forward in the books now and I can't find any reason short of losing a limb that stops a tattoo permanently from working once it has been bestowed. Therefore I can't reason out the idea that the tattoo stops working after the transformation occurs in Sea Titans or any other transformation.

keir451 wrote:You say Underseas "ignored" the Amazons, but it also "ignored" Atlanteans as well.

Good point. Maybe we should take this to mean that Sea Titans can only breed with normal humans? The idea that all human variants who can breed with normals can ALSO breed with each other involves a lot of assumption anyway, doesn't it?

keir451 wrote:I just focused on the phrase "proto-humans" and figured that ogre offspring are probably similar to Homo Sapiens offspring in their development cycle so they would require nursing early on.

Good point, especially since Ogres are explicitly neanderthals per PRPG original (term avoided since then though).

keir451 wrote:The tattoos are another one of those "it says this, but it doesn't explicitly exclude that" scenarios that Palladium is infamous for. The spirit of the concept was for Chiang-Ku dragons and Atlanteans and other more "normal" humans/human-like creatures to be able to benefit from the tattoos. It was also written WELL before Underseas even came out (which may be another factor). So it's hard to say whether or not ADULT Sea Titans can receive and retain that kind of magic, therefore it winds up being another "GM's Call".

All game things are GM calls, we have to do our best to reach solutions on what canon is without that. Even if it came out before Underseas, the Underseas book has references to Atlantis (there are Kittani vehicles, a Splugorth Slaveship, etc.) so if there were restrictions on the Sea Titans, they'd probably be mentioned.

Silvananthus wrote:can't find any reason short of losing a limb that stops a tattoo permanently from working once it has been bestowed.

That area is fun to explore too. Like if a necromancer attached the arm of an Atlantean to himself, if he could do anything special with it. Or are they perhaps immune to transformation even in death?