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There are a lot of unhappy people I've seen discussing the most recent Update with the pics of the Spartan in pieces and put together. I see over a hundred comments on the update itself without a single one from the company addressing the serious concerns displayed there. Facebook looks to be the same with a lot of concern and not a lot of answers. For anyone who hasn't seen the pics they are here. It would be great if Palladium would address this before it gets more out of control as there is a ton of negativity goin on there and it is spreading to other places. What does the rest of the community think about this?

I have alerted Wayne Smith, Jeff Burke and Kevin Siembieda to the threads/comments.

Thank you sir. I have tried as well. I think a little bit of company PR might go a long way to assuage the concerns I'm seein right now.

Honestly I'm still not sure what to think because I have zero experience with miniature assembly. That is why I am wondering what the rest of the community thinks. From what I have seen those with experience are not happy. I'm hoping someone can shed some light on either the benefits or the reasoning to having so many pieces.

I have looked over it extensively and I am not really worried to be honest. It seems like a really simple process of just clicking the pieces together like a happy meal toy. Plus, I am sure they'll include those construction chart pamphlets like they used to with lego and some of the old transformers (if anyone remembers those?).

I honestly don't really see what the uproar is all about. I'll get the models and then sit down and enjoy myself building and painting them. I don't get what the "outrage" is all about. All I see is doom-saying about how they're not built right and such and will fall apart but no one even has them in their hands yet or anything.

I don't get it.

Jorel wrote:Thank you sir. I have tried as well. I think a little bit of company PR might go a long way to assuage the butt hurt I'm seein right now.

Describing the concerns people have as "butt hurt" isn't helping.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I have looked over it extensively and I am not really worried to be honest. It seems like a really simple process of just clicking the pieces together like a happy meal toy. Plus, I am sure they'll include those construction chart pamphlets like they used to with lego and some of the old transformers (if anyone remembers those?).

Except you don't "click the pieces together".

- You get a box that contains a sprue (or multiple sprues).

- Some members will take time to wash the pieces (often on the sprue) gently to remove leftover material from the mold/ejection process.

- You clip the pieces off the sprue, and likely trim down leftover plastic. Doing this 20-34+ times per figure in a game where a "standard size game" can be easily 50+ figures, and a collection could conceivably contain several times this amount (multiple factions, variety of units for different purposes, etc). Even the base box has 34 figures, potentially around 1000 pieces.

- You assemble the pieces using the glue of your choice. Depending on the glue used, the material(s) one is working with, this isn't always a swift process, and even 'assembly line style' building a squad at a time, can be highly time consuming.

Then we get into priming, painting, basing, (some will spend a lot of time on this, some will use bare plastic on bare bases, but it's an element of the hobby that shouldn't be overlooked), etc, etc.

Anyone remotely familiar with miniatures should have realized going in that 96 figures per battle cry was going to be a hell of an undertaking.

A battle cry possibly containing somewhere north of 3,000 pieces, however, is another story entirely, let alone those who backed for 3 or 4 or 10 boxes + add ons.

Building a single spartan from 34 pieces may not seem like a big deal.

Doing so 4 times at around 170 pieces just to build a single Destroid squad, and then 3 more times for a single VT squad, and then another dozen times to get a varied selection of forces for both factions, however, will add up dramatically.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Jorel wrote:That is why I am wondering what the rest of the community thinks.

I have looked over it extensively and I am not really worried to be honest. It seems like a really simple process of just clicking the pieces together like a happy meal toy. Plus, I am sure they'll include those construction chart pamphlets like they used to with lego and some of the old transformers (if anyone remembers those?).

I honestly don't really see what the uproar is all about. I'll get the models and then sit down and enjoy myself building and painting them. I don't get what the "outrage" is all about. All I see is doom-saying about how they're not built right and such and will fall apart but no one even has them in their hands yet or anything.

I don't get it.

Looking things over from one point of view, interesting. If you read the comments there are people with some valid concerns. I think maybe we should read them and understand them somewhat before jumping to conclusions. Complaints range from having to glue really small pieces and poor eyesight to lack of experience with minis being an issue. Looking at a picture extensively is not taking into account what the complaints are. Maybe that is why you do not get it? I also think 20-30 pieces for a mini that is only 2-3 inches tall is ridiculous and would expect at most 10 to 12.

Forar wrote:Except you don't "click the pieces together".

Then what are the pegs and such for?

Example

It looks like it just clicks all together. Each piece "probably" comes in a little plastic baggie of its own and you just clip it together. That is how most of my other plastic models from japan have worked so I don't see why this is somehow different?

Forar wrote:Describing the concerns people have as "butt hurt" isn't helping.

I amended my poor choice of words. Sorry.

Mike1975 wrote:

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Jorel wrote:That is why I am wondering what the rest of the community thinks.

I have looked over it extensively and I am not really worried to be honest. It seems like a really simple process of just clicking the pieces together like a happy meal toy. Plus, I am sure they'll include those construction chart pamphlets like they used to with lego and some of the old transformers (if anyone remembers those?).

I honestly don't really see what the uproar is all about. I'll get the models and then sit down and enjoy myself building and painting them. I don't get what the "outrage" is all about. All I see is doom-saying about how they're not built right and such and will fall apart but no one even has them in their hands yet or anything.

I don't get it.

Looking things over from one point of view, interesting. If you read the comments there are people with some valid concerns. I think maybe we should read them and understand them somewhat before jumping to conclusions. Complaints range from having to glue really small pieces and poor eyesight to lack of experience with minis being an issue. Looking at a picture extensively is not taking into account what the complaints are. Maybe that is why you do not get it? I also think 20-30 pieces for a mini that is only 2-3 inches tall is ridiculous and would expect at most 10 to 12.

I would think a representative from the company is what we need now. A person to help make people feel better. Not to be told their feelings are invalid.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Forar wrote:Except you don't "click the pieces together".

Then what are the pegs and such for?

Example

It looks like it just clicks all together. Each piece "probably" comes in a little plastic baggie of its own and you just clip it together. That is how most of my other plastic models from japan have worked so I don't see why this is somehow different?

Because these miniatures have more in common with Games Workshop figures than whatever it is you've been building from Japan.

More like this; http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/N ... 3fa52b.jpg

The pegs are simply to help line things up. The pieces still need to be clipped, trimmed and glued for assembly.

I sense a lot more glue being purchased than most planned on.

And a lot more time dedicated to letting said glue set.

Depending on the material (as there are many formulaes used for similar plastics) and the glue chosen, along with how much is used, ambient humidity/temperature, the size of the pieces, and a variety of other factors, gluing a few pieces together might not take all that long once all the 'prep work' is done.

But even 'a few moments' adds up when doing so 20-40 times per figure, and all the worse when things just aren't working out and you find yourself holding two parts together for a minute or two wondering which deity you annoyed to cause it to take so long to bond together.

There are some tricks that work with certain types to speed up the process, but when trying to build miniatures that look good on the table, one generally doesn't want to rush the job. Dry fitting the pieces, dabbing on a little glue, carefully getting them in the perfect place, this might sound like a whiny exaggeration, but I've spent an entire evening just building around a dozen Wyrd models that generally contained between 1/2 and 1/10th the number of pieces we're seeing in this line, at roughly similar sizes.

You can speed things up a little doing a handful of similar/identical models "assembly line style", but when all told we start talking 30-60+ minutes per figure without even glancing at painting or more advanced techniques, it's a potential barrier to entry that's worthy of at least addressing in some fashion.

Even with recognition that based on where they are in the production process, it may be too late to make changes in this batch, as we have another dozen model types (or more) due out later in the year, and repeating these issues after hearing of them would just be sad at that point.

Forar wrote:Because these miniatures have more in common with Games Workshop figures than whatever it is you've been building from Japan.

Has this been confirmed, because what I am looking at in your picture looks nothing like what I see in the kickstarter picture and looks a heck of a lot more like the classic snap models that are so prominent in Japan? (and about the same size, heck there are even a bunch for Macross but they're of people not mecha).

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Forar wrote:Because these miniatures have more in common with Games Workshop figures than whatever it is you've been building from Japan.

Has this been confirmed, because what I am looking at in your picture looks nothing like what I see in the kickstarter picture and looks a heck of a lot more like the classic snap models that are so prominent in Japan? (and about the same size, heck there are even a bunch for Macross but they're of people not mecha).

Why don't you go to the update and read the complaints before making you conclusions Akashic? The only one you make look bad is yourself.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Forar wrote:Except you don't "click the pieces together".

Then what are the pegs and such for?

Example

It looks like it just clicks all together. Each piece "probably" comes in a little plastic baggie of its own and you just clip it together. That is how most of my other plastic models from japan have worked so I don't see why this is somehow different?

No... not at all. It's been stated (By multiple people and as best I understand it), they're coming on the sprew. I.E. all the pieces are still on the injection molded mold. When you get them you're going to have to cut out each of those 34 parts for the one bot.
http://palladiumbooks.com/cuttingroom/O ... 145425.jpg
Times how ever many you signed up for. For many that's 96 or so? People have been kicking around different numbers but if you use the 34 for the bot shown in the recent pic as your base, that's 3264 parts. Each of those 3246 parts is -minute-. When you trim them out you have to be very careful, as constructed these things are about 2 inches tall. So each part is going to be under an inch if not a fraction of an inch long. Then you have to sand or hone the parts to get the rest of the 'flash' off them (Left over plastic from the sprew). Once you've done all that, you then have to construct them.

They're not lego. They're not snap tight. There's no pegs to snap together. What you might be seeing is itsy bity missiles or something on a part. There are tabs at joints and what not, say where the arm meets the shoulder, but these are not 'Snap' in and done. These are 'apply model glue to tab, insert in slot. hold for X amount of time to establish bond. Then let set for Y amount of hours to ensure full bond'. And you have to do that for 20-30+ parts per, times 96.

Some people have mentioned using superglue but those are brave or highly skilled individuals. Remember these things are about 2 inches tall. with dozens and dozens of parts each. If you put a drop of superglue on it and it adheres wrong or at a bad angle, the part is so tiny that any attempt to separate it is likely going to break it. Chemicals can't be used, because things that will eat through superglue will very likely eat through the teny tiny plastic piece too, or at least damage it.

The current concern is, that by having so many parts, it complicates and multiplies construction time exponentially. If there were 5 parts "Chest and head/2 arms/2 legs it wouldn't be as large a deal. Instead they're looking at 20-40 each. Estimates on the facebook pages by experienced mini guys, worked out, that if they worked ---Five nights a week-- it would take him 13 months to finish 70 of them (Construction and paint). And that was working 5 nights a week at it, and not going into extra detail on the 'hero units'. That was also assuming he could use superglue to join the parts in seconds instead of minutes or hours with model glue.

I'm not a model guy. I've only built a dozen or so in my life. My experience is minimal. I was skeptical about how fast they stated superglue would set and hold and what not. Still, 13 months from start to finish for 70 (Why they used 70 and not the 96 I'm unsure but that was the number at the time) is a good deal more than most people were invested for. More over that was working on them 5 nights a week for over a year, which very very few people are going to do.

These are the concerns as I've seen them, and discussed them with those people whom have invested in the kickstarter.

I personally did not invest. I've just been following the concerns on facebook. I am -not- a mini's guy. I'm an RPG guy. I've only built a dozen or so models in my life. Those that I have built, have told me it's not the easiest thing in the world, and 34 parts for a little bot about 2 inches tall seems an insane amount of parts. There's other pics of these things beside a quarter.

Again, I didn't invest. I'm just trying to convey the concerns I've seen online, in an easy to digest manner.

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Forar wrote:Except you don't "click the pieces together".

Then what are the pegs and such for?

Example

It looks like it just clicks all together. Each piece "probably" comes in a little plastic baggie of its own and you just clip it together. That is how most of my other plastic models from japan have worked so I don't see why this is somehow different?

As something with 25 years of experience with this hobby I can assure you that these figures are not Snap together kits. THey will come one sprues (see this link - http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440273a&prodId=prod2160142a ) Take a look through the images. These are 25mm figures and they come in too many pieces as is! lol

Now. These Robotech figures are only about 15-25mm larger on average yet come in about 5-6 times as many pieces. Entire pieces are split into multiple components for absolutely NO reason. There is no logical reason to slpit the legs in two. They should be a single mold. ESPECIALLY (IMPORTANT POINT HERE) that there appears to be NO customization ability with posing the figure. Customization is the ONLY reason to split pieces into mulitple parts.

To have split these into so many pieces costs MORE money. You need MORE molds (costing more money once again). Also, we will also have to make additional purchases of "Green Stuff" to fill in all of those seams (splits) in all of those pieces if we want them to look any way half decent.

This is just the beginning of the argument against what they have shown so far.

We won't get into the fact that the components do NOT even line up properly (very easy to do since the mold just needs to be flipped.

Well, those are some of my thoughts. Discuss away!

Akashic Soldier wrote:

Forar wrote:Because these miniatures have more in common with Games Workshop figures than whatever it is you've been building from Japan.

Has this been confirmed, because what I am looking at in your picture looks nothing like what I see in the kickstarter picture and looks a heck of a lot more like the classic snap models that are so prominent in Japan? (and about the same size, heck there are even a bunch for Macross but they're of people not mecha).

From one of the updates:

Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Progress Report

● Prelude to manufacturing. I’m pleased to report that progress continues to be made on Robotech® RPG Tactics™. We are starting to see final pre-production models and many of the sprue layouts have been hammered out.

Those big rectangles of plastic holding all the pieces? Those are "sprues". They're a manner of keeping all the pieces in place to minimize damage during transport, as well as part of the mold creating process, as they often represent at least some of the channels that the plastic flowed through into the little cavities where the negatives of the pieces exist.

Edit: that said, I certainly hope the guy saying it'd take him "13 months" to do 70 figures was including basing and painting time in there too. I'm not all that fast, but I'd hope to get a squad of 4-6 done in an evening, but even at that rate I'm still looking at around 30-40 nights of build time, or probably 3-6 months depending on how exasperated I get with the whole process. Plus painting time. Oh god, so much painting.

Forar wrote:
Edit: that said, I certainly hope the guy saying it'd take him "13 months" to do 70 figures was including basing and painting time in there too. I'm not all that fast, but I'd hope to get a squad of 4-6 done in an evening, but even at that rate I'm still looking at around 30-40 nights of build time, or probably 3-6 months depending on how exasperated I get with the whole process. Plus painting time. Oh god, so much painting.

For the record, the estimate did indeed include 'everything. From getting the box, cutting them off the sprew, sanding, prepping, constructing, and full painting on each. They were for the standard army units. Not the 'hero' units that one would spend extra time on. But yes, the estimate was for 'everything' on the 70 standard units from start to finish. Paint included. Not just construction.

Why don't you go to the update and read the complaints before making you conclusions Akashic? The only one you make look bad is yourself.

I have, your comment isn't helping (or even polite conversation!).

Forar wrote:Those big rectangles of plastic holding all the pieces? Those are "sprues". They're a manner of keeping all the pieces in place to minimize damage during transport, as well as part of the mold creating process, as they often represent at least some of the channels that the plastic flowed through into the little cavities where the negatives of the pieces exist.

Thanks! (and to Pepsi Jedi as well; as both of you actually took the time to participate in civil conversation with me).

Now, if what you guys are saying is the case then I am sorry to hear that but maybe the molds are made that way for the armored VFs and such?

I can't claim to know, I do know this... I invested and I am keen to get my models. I am looking forward to putting them together and painting them and so (to me at least) its not that big of a deal. I'm just getting them for display. If they're not snap together that is going to be a bit of a pain in the ass BUT it gives me and the kids something to do together. ^_^

Thanks for the input guys and for correcting the ignorant comments about us getting bags of parts. Those sprues are gonna be a lotta work if there are really that many tiny pieces. I already don't have the most steady hands and the talk of placing them perfect has my hands shaking just thinkin about the work needed to get 40 tiny surfaces smoothed to glue together.

and that for one unit of the more than 350 that I am getting.

I was certainly hoping for a more simple build. These Robotech figures are made for it more than just about any other. Ah well...

It does not help when people people say it is not a problem when they do not understand what the problem and the concerns are.

valid point. Get to know the problem before addressing and then dealing with it. Ignoring problems does not tend to make them go away.

As someone who has built models and miniatures this is a problem. I get that Wayne is working on an excuse/reason for the bad engineering, but this is a major problem. PB is supposed to be in charge and all I'm getting is excuses. Please redo the vf-1 and spartan. Your being judged by GW standards weather you like it or not. I get that PB/ND is not GW but it's the standard by which all other mini companies are judged by.

I posted some of his responses from FB over on the KS Update. It may clarify a bit why until he does his official post in a couple hours.

Not just judged by GW standards, but also by Soda Pop and the other company that helped form Ninja Division. Their models do seem to be of a higher quality.

Isnt there a RRT forum.

This would have been overlooked there and it applies to Palladium as a whole as it is their image they are letting slip by not addressing this thing all weekend.

The Dark Elf wrote:Isnt there a RRT forum.

I posted there and no one seems to care so that's why the J man posted here.

That as well.

Akashic Soldier wrote:I can't claim to know, I do know this... I invested and I am keen to get my models. I am looking forward to putting them together and painting them and so (to me at least) its not that big of a deal. I'm just getting them for display. If they're not snap together that is going to be a bit of a pain in the ass BUT it gives me and the kids something to do together. ^_^

And if you're just looking to display a couple of each figure, that's totally your prerogative.

But this is a miniatures game, and one that (based on the points assigned to squads and the totals suggested for gameplay in the past) anticipates players fielding forces of dozens of figures, possibly 50+ for an hour long game, perhaps 100+ for longer epic confrontations.

Building a force that size just became an incredibly daunting task, and that sort of barrier to entry can be highly counter productive towards bringing players into the fold.

Spending a couple of hours on a figure you just want to have on the shelf is one thing.

Spending a couple of hours per figure when you have 100-400+ sprues worth of them sitting in a box is something else entirely.

Many miniatures gamers lament having an eternal backlog of plastic to build, it shouldn't surprise anyone that fans of such hobbies would want their products a little more on the build friendly side of things.

Let's make that we are ALL keeping the comments constructive. Let's also make sure to avoid being insulting of the company whose company forums you post on.

Yes let us try to understand the problems before insinuating that they are not a problem at all.

Mike1975 wrote:Yes let us try to understand the problems before insinuating that they are not a problem at all.

Exactly.

Whoever is designing the sprues at ninja division needs to be ordered to buy other companies kits and study them as these look like they were designed by someone recently promoted from the packing/shipping department. I'm all for adding complexity to a build when it ALSO adds variety to the model pose. For instance, separating a leg into upper and lower parts with a round joint at the knee (and possibly a third knee cap piece) adds variety to a model that might otherwise have a static or awkward pose (like the "running spartan" on the latest update). This also helps if a company is only planning a single "pose" of a particular model like if Palladium is planning on three different posed spartans (3 different torsos, 3 different sets of limbs, etc) instead of just one Another example would be making the wing assembly three parts instead of one to allow for mid game wing movement... those are acceptable reasons for complicating the assembly of a model. Unfortunately, it feels like these models were broken up into more pieces simply for no apparent reason with no benefit to the customer. The head of the VF-1 shown last time is a good example of this as it adds extra pieces on a part that other companies have zero problem making in one piece (a simple example would be "horned" chaos space marine helmets that are similarly shaped and of the same size). I've assembled thousands of plastic and metal figs over the last 25 years of my tabletop minis hobby (I still own 20,000pts of painted/assembled 40k figs and have sold off another 20,000 probably over the years) and I haven't seen this poor a layout/breakdown of parts in almost 20 years.

Combine the above parts bloat with seemingly rookie mistakes like having the seams be front and center on the model instead of hidden on the sides and you've got some very cheap looking figs which is NOT what we were promised. I'm sorry but these last two updates have added to my concerns about this project which were already significant due to the backsliding delivery date (two months pass and the project is delayed 3 months more) along with completely ignored concerns about the rules. The root of the problem is over at Ninja Division as the "heavy lifters" supposedly on this but the figurative and literal buck stops with Palladium and ND has been on info/communication lockdown since May 2013 so I'm reposting my concerns here. I am NOT pleased with the look of either of those figs and I fear that more issues like this will only be apparent once we get the figs since it is unlikely that we'll get detailed previews of every fig.

Right now I just want the problem addressed by somebody within the project, instead of all of us repeating ourselves that the current molds look like crap.

It isn't some opinion, anybody in the industry can look at those and see issues.

Hopefully somebody *official* can chime in with what is going on here.

I'm trying to stay positive, but with some infrequent and vague communications its very difficult

Apparently Wayne will be leaving an update either in the Comments or an actual update later today.

Hopefully an update. A comment would just get swamped in the dozens of responses that would get generated. This has caused enough strife among the backers that a response seen by all (or at least sent to all) is probably better than one seen by those who peruse the comments (crazed souls that we are).

I believe Wayne said he was going to post some pictures

I think it will be an update

Oh, yeah sorry, an update with pictures

Of what? The spartan all fixed up because Wayne filed of the seams?

lol, with that special PB spackle

This is just my opinion. I pledged for the Robotech RPG Tactics Campaign only to support Palladium because I am not into Miniatures (I pledged for the art prints). I am following this Campaign because of the possible ramifications that it could have (either good or bad) for the RPG lines (not only Robotech) and future KS Campaigns in general. Actually, I thought that if they can pull it off, a RIFTS or a SPLICERS, etc., future KS Campaign would be a real possibility. Now I think that they need to release it FAST because the KS forums are turning into a sort of "time bomb" with people complaining about this or about that. I am not sure if the decision they made is the best one or it's just plain bad, but I am sure that as soon as they release the product, lots of fears and speculations are going to be a thing of the past. I hope, I really hope they can do it and that it turns to be another success story!

The update was just posted. The explanations seem good to me. We will see in the next update Friday or Saturday. Hopefully some pictures of the Assembled piece without the glue and primer gunk so we can see what was described originally and not what we were shown.

So someone wanted to save cash and go with a subpar way of getting the minis done. This is not what I signed up for. I hope the rest of the line looks better because I want this to be a success and an alternative to GW. Unfortunately it seems like this is how the rest will get done.

ffranceschi wrote:This is just my opinion. I pledged for the Robotech RPG Tactics Campaign only to support Palladium because I am not into Miniatures (I pledged for the art prints). I am following this Campaign because of the possible ramifications that it could have (either good or bad) for the RPG lines (not only Robotech) and future KS Campaigns in general. Actually, I thought that if they can pull it off, a RIFTS or a SPLICERS, etc., future KS Campaign would be a real possibility. Now I think that they need to release it FAST because the KS forums are turning into a sort of "time bomb" with people complaining about this or about that. I am not sure if the decision they made is the best one or it's just plain bad, but I am sure that as soon as they release the product, lots of fears and speculations are going to be a thing of the past. I hope, I really hope they can do it and that it turns to be another success story!

I'm with you on the hope part. I do hope these fears are unfounded and it turns out to be not soooo many pieces to put together. I think I could handle hundreds. I don't think I can do 7,000+.