Tattooed Men, supernatural or not?

[Svartalf]

So I want to experiment with T men given ("rewarded") Bio wizard enhancements (parasites or symbiotes) by their masters. However, numerous creatures have a compatibility problem with hosts who are creatures of magic or supernatural beings. I have tried to find an answer in Atlantis, but failed... there is that MDC transmutation, the increased PPE, and the loss of magical capability, but I've not read clearly whether or not those constitute a transformation into a supernatural being.

So what's your take?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Ordinary T-Men are not, Undead slayers are.

[Svartalf]

Makes no sense... ordinary Atlanteans are humans... THAT much I've gathered from my checki,g through Atlantis... they are tweaked, but they are human.
But if you can say definitively that Undead Slayers ARE supernatural beings, then to me it means that the transformation to T Man also makes them supernatural... restricts my field of experiment a lot, but also simplifies the job.

[Alrik Vas]

It might be text that states it, rather than sense, svartalf.

If their biology works out, I might allow it, but I also don't have this sort of issue in my games.

[cornholioprime]

So I want to experiment with T men given ("rewarded") Bio wizard enhancements (parasites or symbiotes) by their masters. However, numerous creatures have a compatibility problem with hosts who are creatures of magic or supernatural beings. I have tried to find an answer in Atlantis, but failed... there is that MDC transmutation, the increased PPE, and the loss of magical capability, but I've not read clearly whether or not those constitute a transformation into a supernatural being.

So what's your take?

A.] The Magic isn't actually contained within them, it is contained in their Magic Tattoos; presumably, if enough limbs are surgically (or otherwise) removed, and their number drops below 6, then they revert to normal.

B.] The additional PPE is also stated to come from the Magic Tattoos, so it is not innate to the T-Mens' being.

C.] On top of all that, as so many other non-magical creatures demonstrate, just having Supernatural Strength and/or MDC doesn't automatically make you a True Supernatural Creature or a Creature Of Magic.


I would therefore say that, at very best, T-Men with more than six Magic Tattoos are no more 'supernatural' than Gargoyles or Brodkil, and therefore eligible for just about any Bio-Wizard procedure a normal human or True Atlantean would qualify for (remembering, of course, that any Bio-Wizardry enhancements that would instantly or eventually transform the affected character, wouldn't work on a T-Man who is a True Atlantean).

[Svartalf]

It might be text that states it, rather than sense, svartalf.

If their biology works out, I might allow it, but I also don't have this sort of issue in my games.

I'd like to be directed to the page and part where this text happens then, because I didn't find it.
But unless I find text stating plainly that one brand is and the other isn't, I'd tend to take any text stating that a certain brand is actually supernatural to mean it for all kinds.

[Svartalf]

And Corny argues rather cogently for a no... So my question ought to become "is there actual text that plainly states that T Men are supernatural, or not?".

[Nekira Sudacne]

Makes no sense... ordinary Atlanteans are humans... THAT much I've gathered from my checki,g through Atlantis... they are tweaked, but they are human.
But if you can say definitively that Undead Slayers ARE supernatural beings, then to me it means that the transformation to T Man also makes them supernatural... restricts my field of experiment a lot, but also simplifies the job.

Argo Vinuh is an atlantian undead slayer from the Rifts England book and it says that he is considered a supernatural being because of it.

[Svartalf]

Checked and confirmed, so I'll guess that all T Men are regarded as such... Now I get why most owners who want to reward their T men give them extra tattoos... too many organisms that just won't meld with a soupy, not to mention those, like the chest amalgamate, that just take too much skin surface to go on a T Man... looks like my idea won't work without bending the rules.

You rock Nekkie, I'd never have found that by myself

[Tor]

The Undead Slayers already mentioned, and also the Monster Hunters from South America, are the only ones I've seen explicit 'supernatural' statements for. Also the Tattoo Masters (Chaing Ku) would be as well, due to being dragons.

This leaves T-Men, Monster-Men, Maxi-Men and T-Archers open to non-supernaturalness I guess.

[say652]

I'll allow it.

[Svartalf]

The Undead Slayers already mentioned, and also the Monster Hunters from South America, are the only ones I've seen explicit 'supernatural' statements for. Also the Tattoo Masters (Chaing Ku) would be as well, due to being dragons.

This leaves T-Men, Monster-Men, Maxi-Men and T-Archers open to non-supernaturalness I guess.

As I said, "normal" true Atlanteans being humans, it makes no sense that Vampire Slayers be SN, and not the other kinds of T Men who have also undergone the transformation into de-magicked, MDC beings.

[Tor]

It makes some sense. The Slayers and Hunters are Atlantean-created OCCs which people voluntarily enter into, as opposed to slavery-based OCCs invented by the Splugorth. The Hunter/Slayer OCCs also create tougher bodies (at least double the base MDC) that benefit more from the tattoos (11/13 per, instead of 10/11, like the others) so that's probably why they go into supernatural territory.

[Svartalf]

Regardless of volunteer status, the process and its results are analogous. So the only thing that makes sense is for all kinds to acquire supernatural status if one does... the one thing that really changes is training, but skills are not what makes you a soupy or not.

[Tor]

They aren't analagous, I already pointed out that UndeadSlayers/MonsterHunters get more base MDC and more MDC per tattoo. There's something different about those classes. It's not just the skills. They also have higher base PPE and regenerate PPE faster. Even the MH class which can be selected by normal humans and ogres, so we can't attribute that to the Atlantean ancestry.

[Svartalf]

Monster Hunters? Where's that already?

[say652]

Monster Hunters? Where's that already?

South America book 1 I believe. Book 2 if I am wrong.

[Tor]

Book 1 actually, World Book 6 page 100 under 12 "other bonuses".

[Svartalf]

Monster Hunters? Where's that already?

South America book 1 I believe. Book 2 if I am wrong.

OK, I'd completely forgotten about them... so they are a slight variant of the US... it's still not relevant, you can write the extra MDC and PPE to their being Atlanteans, or to bettertraining and preparation to receiving the tattoos (like being actually teenage when given the 7th one)... no need for any fundamental differences from the T Man process, except the Splugorth slaves are less well chosen and prepared.

[Svartalf]

I'm doing sploog slave NPCs, symbiote and tattoos are just about the open options, equipment being a lesser variable.

[Tor]

you can write the extra MDC and PPE to their being Atlanteans

Except they can be ogres

or to bettertraining and preparation to receiving the tattoos (like being actually teenage when given the 7th one)

Though this is an Atlantean custom, it's not necessarily the case for others who take the OCC.

... no need for any fundamental differences from the T Man process, except the Splugorth slaves are less well chosen and prepared.

and yet, they are supernatural, and the others are not, so something happened.

All the tatoo warriors are forever transformed into supernatural creatures past six tatoos. you can STILL get symbiotes with six tatoos however. This was mentioned way back in CB1 and in FAQs and rifters.

Awaiting a page number. Tats/Mons/Maxis/Archers haven't had an explicit 'supernatural' statement far as I know.

besides there are other ways of Getting permanent Enchantments on a human besides Symbiotes and tatoos. pattern magic (south America II) Biomancy ( Lemuria) and Various permanent enchantments possible with a permanency ward.

True, but I don't think those make you inherently supernatural in all cases, perhaps some.

[Svartalf]

I would include the Rifter 9? splugorth bio borgs and a few kryggorth slaves as well.

No Kryygorth this time, but I'm hoping the players won't remember that when I unleash a couple kill crazies on them, and possibly a SSsplugorth Juicer if the kill crazies are too soft.

[Svartalf]

Well, MDC is one thing, but you can be MDC without being a soupy, I wanted evidence one way or the other... I got it.

[Svartalf]

I noticed the FAQ answers keep changing.... in 2007 suddenly wormwood apoks were no longer able to survive off world, when they were able to for Decades Since Mercenaries and South America I...

Indestructible mask and link to the Apok's person more to than to the Living Planet is evidence enough for me, but aren't this post and the previous one in the wrong thread?

[Jefffar]

Can we keep this one on topic please? Thanks.

[42dragon]

There are many issues with this question.

First off True Atlanteans, WB2 "Cannot be physically transformed by any means, including but not limited to the following: metamorphosis potions and spells, the transformation ritual, vampire transformation, petrification, turn to mist, growth/reduction spells/potions/super powers, curses, wishes, or any other form of magic or supernatural transformation spell or enchantment." This power of all Atlanteans, mean that Undead Slayers shouldn't be transformed into MDC but they are. It also implies that their nature can't be transformed from mortal to supernatural.

Then there is a wording issue in WB 3 about Argo Vinuh, "considered to be a supernatural being with superhuman strength and endurance". To the best of my knowledge this is the only place a Tattooed man (any type) is referenced as being a supernatural creature. But is there any other reference anywhere about an actual supernatural creature only having superhuman strength and endurance? Those are two of the only quantifiable advantages of being supernatural (supernatural strength and endurance) this NPC doesn't get those so why be considered supernatural at all.

I think these early books need to be taken with a grain of salt as they were written long before the differences in supernatural creatures, creatures of magic, supernatural predators, monsters, dinosaurs, ect. were really defined, argued, and clarified to a blurry point.

I would rule that Tattooed men are not supernatural, and the MDC transformation is merely a magical by product of the numerous tattoos. Perhaps loosely related to the Palladium rule on permanent wards being indestructable. These are permanent Tattoos and they impart some of their strength (MDC) to the person once enough of them are in place.

Which still doesn't explain True Atlanteans, but that wasn't the main point of this discussion anyway.

[Tor]

I noticed the FAQ answers keep changing.... in 2007 suddenly wormwood apoks were no longer able to survive off world, when they were able to for Decades Since Mercenaries and South America I...

Source? Mercenaries only had a Holy Terror, and SA1 only had a city of people imported from Wormwood. Neither of which had anything to do with the topic of Apok mask survival.

Apoks have ALWAYS have been able to survive off planet. They just lost their magical powers and their masks died if they came along (good idea to leave them behind buried somewhere).

Firetown just introduced a ritual that allowed the communion powers or the symbiote to survive through PPE vampirism.

Indestructible mask and link to the Apok's person more to than to the Living Planet is evidence enough for me

except indestructibility is a planet-tied power that is lost (and being indestructible doesn't prevent power loss) and the only link to the Apok's person is that they're the only ones that can use it, NOT that they are the source of the power (that's Wormwood)

Why on Wormwood would there be legends of the masks finally losing their powers if Wormwood was freed? If it were tied to the Apok, why would such a rumor persist?

aren't this post and the previous one in the wrong thread?

Yeah... I found it being here a bit odd... but oh well *rolls with it*

in 2007 Someone wrote that the original draft Confessor was the original name of the apok occ was confessor and claims that KS changed it, and thus all symbiotes also die off wormwood.

Wrong, the confesser statement is simply the explicit part about Apoks losing their powers.

Even without that statement, the masks die, because they are symbiotes.

In the original draft of Wormwood, None of the symbiotes died, and the author planned to have it be a palladium fantasy (revised) Rifts Hybrid Dimension book.

Cool story bro, I do like the idea of them surviving off-planet, which is why those fanon shifter spells which allow 'complete symbiosis' are excellent.

aaand back to tattooed guys... (maybe our posts on WW should be moved?)

This power of all Atlanteans, mean that Undead Slayers shouldn't be transformed into MDC but they are. It also implies that their nature can't be transformed from mortal to supernatural.

All I can take from this is that becoming MDC or becoming supernatural are status changes that do not inherently qualify as magical transformations. Kind of like how Atlanteans can transform their muscles through bodybuilding and wrestling.

Then there is a wording issue in WB 3 about Argo Vinuh, "considered to be a supernatural being with superhuman strength and endurance". To the best of my knowledge this is the only place a Tattooed man (any type) is referenced as being a supernatural creature.

Where is this England guy you're talking about?

is there any other reference anywhere about an actual supernatural creature only having superhuman strength and endurance? Those are two of the only quantifiable advantages of being supernatural (supernatural strength and endurance)

Immunity to a permanence ward enhancing your Agony torture is also nice.

this NPC doesn't get those so why be considered supernatural at all.

Do you take 'superhuman' to mean 'can't also be supernatural' ?