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Do you remember the scene in 'Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan' when the Enterprise crew hacked the Reliant's command computer using it's command codes and instructed the Reliant to lower it's shields?

If you had radio contact or some other kind of link with an enemy space ship, do you think it would be possible to hack it's systems and force feed it simple commands(like lower your shields)?

If I was a ship designer I would definitely keep all comms circuits totally separate from all other command and control circuits. So my answer would be "no".

But not all ships would be designed this way. Maybe some are designed to be controlled by a master ship with people on it and act like an unmanned drone and are purposely built to take commands from radio/laser comms. Even if these ships have a crew most/part of the time they could probably still be hacked. This design would probably only be used on freighters/supply ships that can be led by a manned vessel, and probably never used on manned war/scout ships.

just my 2 cents. Its up to you really.

Thinyser wrote:If I was a ship designer I would definitely keep all comms circuits totally separate from all other command and control circuits. So my answer would be "no".

But not all ships would be designed this way. Maybe some are designed to be controlled by a master ship with people on it and act like an unmanned drone and are purposely built to take commands from radio/laser comms. Even if these ships have a crew most/part of the time they could probably still be hacked. This design would probably only be used on freighters/supply ships that can be led by a manned vessel, and probably never used on manned war/scout ships.

just my 2 cents. Its up to you really.

Well as we see in the first arc for Robotech the Zentraedi ships definitely have a security vulnerability like that, where they can be sent remote override commands. I'm sure there are other examples where even military ships had such purposefully installed weaknesses for various reasons including distrust of the troops.

note that you can hack into a ship via any EM receiving system, including things like Radar. so unless you go the battlestar galactica route and not have any system talking to any other system, hacking is possible.

I could see civilian vessels having something like this (like in Firefly), but I doubt military vessels would be vulnerable to this kind of attack.

glitterboy2098 wrote:note that you can hack into a ship via any EM receiving system, including things like Radar. so unless you go the battlestar galactica route and not have any system talking to any other system, hacking is possible.

Hacking is only possible if the control systems lack authentication and authorization mechanisms.

--flatline

less vulnerable perhaps.. better firewalls and security programs. but not invulnerable.

Thinyser wrote:If I was a ship designer I would definitely keep all comms circuits totally separate from all other command and control circuits. So my answer would be "no".

But not all ships would be designed this way. Maybe some are designed to be controlled by a master ship with people on it and act like an unmanned drone and are purposely built to take commands from radio/laser comms. Even if these ships have a crew most/part of the time they could probably still be hacked. This design would probably only be used on freighters/supply ships that can be led by a manned vessel, and probably never used on manned war/scout ships.

just my 2 cents. Its up to you really.

there are strong arguments both ways, with that said its a reoccurring theme in both star wars and star trek that many ships do have at least some remote control capability. heck many missiles have some even if its only remote self destruct /disabling capability.

examples: star wars tie fighters and similar have functions for landing/docking where flight control can take over control of the craft, but the pilot can override that if they know the commands to input to regain control.

Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

Establishing a secure authenticated communication channel is not the impossibility that hollywood would have you believe. In fact, it's not difficult at all and incurs no meaningful delays or inconveniences.

A well designed control system can be secure and authenticated and not suffer any of the "tradeoffs" you've suggested.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

Establishing a secure authenticated communication channel is not the impossibility that hollywood would have you believe. In fact, it's not difficult at all and incurs no meaningful delays or inconveniences.

A well designed control system can be secure and authenticated and not suffer any of the "tradeoffs" you've suggested.

--flatline

And works right up until someone figures out how to forge the authentication....which is pretty much the essence of what 'hacking' is. Its not magic, its figuring out loopholes, exploiting weaknesses.....
You can make it HARDER to hack something, but you can't make it impossible. If nothing else you run the risk of someone compromising a system by revealing the codes or passwords.

This is actually proving to be a more interesting subject than I expected.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

even then it's not 100%.. recently a kind of malware that can jump between machines without using any sort of networking system was found. by that i mean the computers were removed from the network, and even had their network and wifi cards physically removed, but the malware was still reinfecting the machines.* thankfully it isn't infectious beyond the programming of the machines it was found on, but since we know it is possible now, the potential someone will include that ability in a future virus is there.


*turns out it was using speakers and microphones to transmit bits of code thru compressed audio.. stuff that infected the BIOS of the computers being used.

flatline wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

Establishing a secure authenticated communication channel is not the impossibility that hollywood would have you believe. In fact, it's not difficult at all and incurs no meaningful delays or inconveniences.

A well designed control system can be secure and authenticated and not suffer any of the "tradeoffs" you've suggested.

--flatline

I'm aware of that, my point is "Secure connection" is not perfect. Any secure connection can have bugs or be otherwise compromised, to say nothing of espionage getting the information needed to forge the digitial credentials. While it IS true that hacking is far, far more difficult (and slow) than holywood makes it seem, it is true that any connection is vunerable.

As eliakon said, I'm talking about Real hacking, that is, finding bugs and exploits in the authentication system, not simply magically whiffing past a firewall. Your best bet is probablly good old fashioned naval espionage, trying to get information about the security system before hacking.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

even then it's not 100%.. recently a kind of malware that can jump between machines without using any sort of networking system was found. by that i mean the computers were removed from the network, and even had their network and wifi cards physically removed, but the malware was still reinfecting the machines.* thankfully it isn't infectious beyond the programming of the machines it was found on, but since we know it is possible now, the potential someone will include that ability in a future virus is there.


*turns out it was using speakers and microphones to transmit bits of code thru compressed audio.. stuff that infected the BIOS of the computers being used.

Indeed, Ruiu has conceded that while several fellow security experts have assisted his investigation, none has peer reviewed his process or the tentative findings that he's beginning to draw.

And there's where I stop buying the story. also, just remove the microphone.

People have been proposing that you can hack computers with sound for a while. I'm not sure I buy it, but that's just natural suspicion. I'm not an expert.

Alrik Vas wrote:People have been proposing that you can hack computers with sound for a while. I'm not sure I buy it, but that's just natural suspicion. I'm not an expert.

I am not going to say its impossible but it is improbable ... to be honest removing malware was my job for the last 5 years... in 99% of the cases I ran into there was some files, and or processes that were missed, and were reinstalling the nasty thing

There are two existing things in the 3Galaxies.

First is the 200 year long Automaton Wars (in Fleets) and the widespread fear of AIs in the 3Galaxies.

Second, the security systems mentioned in DMB2 (pg 79. Machine People powers, Machine melding) can deny access for even direct attempts by maybe the
most advanced AIs (ie. the Machine People).

Also, there are the various races with access to Telemechanics (Noros and their psylite tech... Heck, anyone with psionics can use a psylite device projecting Telemechanics),
so one has to presume that defense against this type of intrusion is fairly common.

So, all in all, it would take considerable effort to hack a starship, and even then, success is not guaranteed. On the other hand, it is possible.

Using the example from Wrath of Khan, Kirk was able to override the Reliant because he had the secret codes (being an admiral of the same power), yet then Khan was able to deny access in a few seconds.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Computer security is a series of tradeoffs. If you completely isolate all communications and sensor systems from the rest of the ship, then yes, hacking the ship is impossible. on the other hand, if you do do that, your ship will have a harsh delay as the Sensor officers have to manually enter and transmit information to weapons systems. in short, a completely secure ship would also be one that is very very slow to counterattack.

even then it's not 100%.. recently a kind of malware that can jump between machines without using any sort of networking system was found. by that i mean the computers were removed from the network, and even had their network and wifi cards physically removed, but the malware was still reinfecting the machines.* thankfully it isn't infectious beyond the programming of the machines it was found on, but since we know it is possible now, the potential someone will include that ability in a future virus is there.


*turns out it was using speakers and microphones to transmit bits of code thru compressed audio.. stuff that infected the BIOS of the computers being used.

Indeed, Ruiu has conceded that while several fellow security experts have assisted his investigation, none has peer reviewed his process or the tentative findings that he's beginning to draw.

And there's where I stop buying the story. also, just remove the microphone.

The trouble is that 100% of people that don't know that there is such software that can transmit this way would never think to do that. Even people that do know about this form of transmission would probably try all other avenues to deal with it before the think "could it be transmitted via sound?" and unhook the mic.

KLM wrote:Using the example from Wrath of Khan, Kirk was able to override the Reliant because he had the secret codes (being an admiral of the same power), yet then Khan was able to deny access in a few seconds.

the problem i had with the scene was how simple the code was.. only a couple of numbers. wouldn't take long to break it via brute force really. personally i'd want codes that are a couple of hundred or thousand characters long, using the full keyboard, generated by complex algorithms to make them tough to crack.

Here's a link that does an excellent job of explaining basic concepts in authentication.

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs513 ... eople.html

It's worth the 7 or 8 minutes it takes to read it.

--flatline

glitterboy2098 wrote:

KLM wrote:Using the example from Wrath of Khan, Kirk was able to override the Reliant because he had the secret codes (being an admiral of the same power), yet then Khan was able to deny access in a few seconds.

the problem i had with the scene was how simple the code was.. only a couple of numbers. wouldn't take long to break it via brute force really. personally i'd want codes that are a couple of hundred or thousand characters long, using the full keyboard, generated by complex algorithms to make them tough to crack.

Well it was a movie and they just didn't feel like complicating things like that. Data when he hijacked the Enterprise on the other hand we clearly see using a pass code impossible to crack by brute force guess work with a complex string of letters, numbers and words AND a requirement to be able to successfully fake Picard's voice as a second level of encryption restriction.

Nightmask wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

KLM wrote:Using the example from Wrath of Khan, Kirk was able to override the Reliant because he had the secret codes (being an admiral of the same power), yet then Khan was able to deny access in a few seconds.

the problem i had with the scene was how simple the code was.. only a couple of numbers. wouldn't take long to break it via brute force really. personally i'd want codes that are a couple of hundred or thousand characters long, using the full keyboard, generated by complex algorithms to make them tough to crack.

Well it was a movie and they just didn't feel like complicating things like that. Data when he hijacked the Enterprise on the other hand we clearly see using a pass code impossible to crack by brute force guess work with a complex string of letters, numbers and words AND a requirement to be able to successfully fake Picard's voice as a second level of encryption restriction.

It was also the '80s, when not many outside the computer industry knew anything about computers other than they were large and had TV screens that only used green.

Don't know if anyone saw Bodacious Space Pirates but they hacked ships all the time. I guess that would qualify as a decent example in fiction/anime. As too how plausible that would be somewhat realistically for a sci-fi campaign, I have no idea. yet.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

KLM wrote:Using the example from Wrath of Khan, Kirk was able to override the Reliant because he had the secret codes (being an admiral of the same power), yet then Khan was able to deny access in a few seconds.

the problem i had with the scene was how simple the code was.. only a couple of numbers.

As it was pointed out, it was a movie.

Sometimes we joke about ST like the captain issues an order, the computer generates a pop-up window like "execute spoken order?", "are you sure?", "really?", and the ensign in
red shirt presses OK three times.

Considering how TNG ships and later, they could control the whole vessel with voice commands, this wouldn't be surprising to me.

I would think hacking by radio would be immpossible . Now a broading party could hack into a system

I might point out that while the Kahn's were 'super-soldiers' and smart, they were every inexperienced with the ship they stole, and they were 'short crewed' to boot. As such their situation allowed such a Hack to take place more then what would normally happen with a ship that was fully crewed and the crew fully trained in the systems.

Re: badBIOS, it's almost certainly either security researchers not doing their homework, or a hoax in poor taste. As Morbo would say, "BIOS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!"

Realistically speaking, hacking an opposing spaceship, especially remotely, would be... implausibly difficult, barring a few specific circumstances. Eg. pre-planted backdoors, or the hacker in question being intimately familiar with the target systems - say, trying to wrest control of their own ship away from the pirates that absconded with it.

But honestly? These games all run on the Rule of Cool, and realtime-hacking the enemy while in the middle of space combat is pretty damn cool. I certainly wouldn't make it easy for a player or NPC to pull it off - otherwise the entire galaxy would be one huge hack-fest - but it would make a great source of added dramatic tension to a scene.

The badBIOS thing makes me wonder, though: if a Telemechanic takes over a device that includes some kind of wireless networking hardware, can their Telemechanics jump an air gap? What constitutes 'a device', exactly?

Jerell wrote:Don't know if anyone saw Bodacious Space Pirates but they hacked ships all the time. I guess that would qualify as a decent example in fiction/anime. As too how plausible that would be somewhat realistically for a sci-fi campaign, I have no idea. yet.

That anime had some nice examples of electronic warfare in space combat.

So could a Psi-tech or a CS Digital Reaper use their psionics to "ride" the comm bands to another ship and hack it from within? Or would they have to be in actual physical contact?

keir451 wrote:So could a Psi-tech or a CS Digital Reaper use their psionics to "ride" the comm bands to another ship and hack it from within? Or would they have to be in actual physical contact?

What psi powers do you have in mind for "riding" radio waves?

--flatline

Thinyser wrote:If I was a ship designer I would definitely keep all comms circuits totally separate from all other command and control circuits. So my answer would be "no".

But not all ships would be designed this way. Maybe some are designed to be controlled by a master ship with people on it and act like an unmanned drone and are purposely built to take commands from radio/laser comms. Even if these ships have a crew most/part of the time they could probably still be hacked. This design would probably only be used on freighters/supply ships that can be led by a manned vessel, and probably never used on manned war/scout ships.

just my 2 cents. Its up to you really.

I agree. It would also depend on the purpose of the ship. Honestly, even as a military ship designer I wouldn't leave any "backdoors" in to the C&C or Engineering systems through the communication system. At MOST I might leave a backdoor where you could force the communication system to enable an IFF beacon or something like that. None of this "well if it gets taken over, I want to be able to command it to lower it's shields and deactivate its weapons" thing.

Too likely that either someone would stumble upon it or else you could run in to a rogue officer who knew about the vulnerability.

Telemechanics seems to be relatively clear that you have to have physical contact with the machine. I would not let it work remotely in anyway nor would I even allow it to work over the wire. Strictly within the firewall of the device in the question and yes, I would include that to mean that something like a robot with multiple firewalled bits would have to have the telemechanic in question either in contact (or within range, I can't recall if it can work over short distances or not) of each firewalled system to be able to control them. No "Oh, I am touching this computer, which happens to be networked to one across the base/ship from me so I can control that one too"

Maybe "well I am touching/in control of the central computer core of the ship...so I can control anything the central computer core could".

Deffinitely no "Oh, I am in control of my ship's comm system so I can remotely control another ship over radio/laser".

I like telemechanics, but unless you set some fair firm delineations on its abilities it is MASSIVELY overpowered in a tech setting.

azazel1024 wrote:

Thinyser wrote:If I was a ship designer I would definitely keep all comms circuits totally separate from all other command and control circuits. So my answer would be "no".

But not all ships would be designed this way. Maybe some are designed to be controlled by a master ship with people on it and act like an unmanned drone and are purposely built to take commands from radio/laser comms. Even if these ships have a crew most/part of the time they could probably still be hacked. This design would probably only be used on freighters/supply ships that can be led by a manned vessel, and probably never used on manned war/scout ships.

just my 2 cents. Its up to you really.

I agree. It would also depend on the purpose of the ship. Honestly, even as a military ship designer I wouldn't leave any "backdoors" in to the C&C or Engineering systems through the communication system. At MOST I might leave a backdoor where you could force the communication system to enable an IFF beacon or something like that. None of this "well if it gets taken over, I want to be able to command it to lower it's shields and deactivate its weapons" thing.

Too likely that either someone would stumble upon it or else you could run in to a rogue officer who knew about the vulnerability.

Telemechanics seems to be relatively clear that you have to have physical contact with the machine. I would not let it work remotely in anyway nor would I even allow it to work over the wire. Strictly within the firewall of the device in the question and yes, I would include that to mean that something like a robot with multiple firewalled bits would have to have the telemechanic in question either in contact (or within range, I can't recall if it can work over short distances or not) of each firewalled system to be able to control them. No "Oh, I am touching this computer, which happens to be networked to one across the base/ship from me so I can control that one too"

Maybe "well I am touching/in control of the central computer core of the ship...so I can control anything the central computer core could".

Deffinitely no "Oh, I am in control of my ship's comm system so I can remotely control another ship over radio/laser".

I like telemechanics, but unless you set some fair firm delineations on its abilities it is MASSIVELY overpowered in a tech setting.

I can't remember which book but the range of benefits you can expect for Telemechanics in hacking situations is covered somewhere, giving you some bonuses to remote hacking since it speeds up your ability to interface with the computer you're using for the hacking but not the ability to remote-control like you get with the computer that's actually in range of your Tele-mechanics power.

flatline wrote:

keir451 wrote:So could a Psi-tech or a CS Digital Reaper use their psionics to "ride" the comm bands to another ship and hack it from within? Or would they have to be in actual physical contact?

What psi powers do you have in mind for "riding" radio waves?

--flatline

Possibly Telemechanics or Machine Ghost, not quite mentally functional enough to research.

Makes sense but. I would require a person aboard said ship or some sort of "bug" be on the ship to gain access. Two thumbs up. Really good idea.

say652 wrote:Makes sense but. I would require a person aboard said ship or some sort of "bug" be on the ship to gain access. Two thumbs up. Really good idea.

Thx! Still requires some research, but I'll do that later.

keir451 wrote:So could a Psi-tech or a CS Digital Reaper use their psionics to "ride" the comm bands to another ship and hack it from within? Or would they have to be in actual physical contact?

No, both powers have a very limited range and do not transmit wirelessly.

I think what is really important to keep in mind is that "hacking" as described here would only be a very, very small part of a starships electronic warfare capabilities.

Jammers, decoys, signals intelligence, etc. The best description of EW in a game is actually in the Robotech Macross Saga book. Great descriptions under VEF Veritech, a couple of jets, and the Zentreadi Recon Pod. It also introduces a new skill for the characters. The Southern Cross Saga book also has some great examples.

Most of the hacking I have let PCs do is from inside the ship (Boarding party) or when they are under stealth watching a ship and gathering intelligence.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I might point out that while the Kahn's were 'super-soldiers' and smart, they were every inexperienced with the ship they stole, and they were 'short crewed' to boot. As such their situation allowed such a Hack to take place more then what would normally happen with a ship that was fully crewed and the crew fully trained in the systems.

Aye, it was a bit of a gambit on Kirk's part. (As with most of his ploys.)

General indications in the various series seems to be that, in the Trek universe, the first order of business when taking a ship is to change the command codes to keep the owners from taking control, also changed whenever a member of the command staff is captured.

As far the Three Galaxies, as has been note, they've had a lot of experience with advanced AI and telemechanic hijackers and seem to have some level of protection against this.
As far as just how possible it is to get around that protection comes down to just how big a part you want it to play in your campaigns.

So a Psi-Tech in an EVA suit? Telemechanic Posession, open all doors and all airlocks, disable gravity, etc...

TheOttoman wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:People have been proposing that you can hack computers with sound for a while. I'm not sure I buy it, but that's just natural suspicion. I'm not an expert.

I am not going to say its impossible but it is improbable ... to be honest removing malware was my job for the last 5 years... in 99% of the cases I ran into there was some files, and or processes that were missed, and were reinstalling the nasty thing

I don't want to talk professionally here, but it's extremely improbable, and that's only because no one wants to flat-out say that it can't be done....

Here's a pretty good article explaining this down to the tech level you're comfortable with:
http://americablog.com/2013/11/badbios- ... -hoax.html

http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/acoustic/

Yes you can Hack a computer by sound please read

I have a anti-Hacking rule.
No One can hack from outside the ship.
the backdoor thing killed new Battlestar Galactica for Me.

See hacking can have its own campaign if the players really want to. check out rifter #2 Cyberjacking across the Megaverse. in ym campaigns if players want to hack, we turn to those mini setting for hacking. its fun and can be a break from a big campaign.

Here is an interesting combination, which due to combining elements from enemy groups, may not have happened yet.

Take the Silverhawk power armor from the CCW, that one with the wicked rifle which has the ability to skip past force fields using jamming tech.

Put it on a Machine Person, a race within the TGE...

Have Machine Person skip past forcefield, make physical contact with the ship, do a Machine-Meld...

Now you control enemy ship?

If you had a Machine Person renegade working for the CCW, or a Machine Person working for TGE who stole a Silverhawk, this would be a huge crippler against enemy ships, particularly the larger ones that are easy to hide on/in.

Tor wrote:Here is an interesting combination, which due to combining elements from enemy groups, may not have happened yet.

Take the Silverhawk power armor from the CCW, that one with the wicked rifle which has the ability to skip past force fields using jamming tech.

Put it on a Machine Person, a race within the TGE...

Have Machine Person skip past forcefield, make physical contact with the ship, do a Machine-Meld...

Now you control enemy ship?

If you had a Machine Person renegade working for the CCW, or a Machine Person working for TGE who stole a Silverhawk, this would be a huge crippler against enemy ships, particularly the larger ones that are easy to hide on/in.

I am not sure that a machine person can meld and take over a starship. I personally doubt they could take over a large multi crew vehicle like a tank let alone a full on starship. Though I guess a rules lawyer could argue that it does say 'machine' ....

It does say that once the meld is completed that they're an overriding force in control that can't be subverted or taken away...

So odds are the TGE already has Machine Person pilots controlling all their major ships, to prevent rogue Machine People from taking control.

The guarantee the current pilot doesn't abuse their power is probably a Royal Kreeghor or Invincible Guardsman with a huge rune-sword pointed at their nuclear core.

It would seem like CCW is totally vulnerable to this tactic though... meaning they'd better keep real strict control of their Silverhawks, because even one falling into enemy TGE hands and making its way to a Machine Person could spell doom for their huge battleships.

Of course, since the process does take 1-6 melees, that is time where you could direct your protective fighter ships to blast the Machine-Silverhawk to atoms before the merge is complete.

Fighters could also destroy the controlling machine-person latched to the hull after the merger, meaning that control might only be temporary. So this is one major benefit to having a fighter escort.

Fighters would be less useful if a Machine Person cut their way deep into a CCW ship before merging, then you would need on-board PA and troops to locate them and kill them before you could take control back.

eliakon wrote:

Tor wrote:Here is an interesting combination, which due to combining elements from enemy groups, may not have happened yet.

Take the Silverhawk power armor from the CCW, that one with the wicked rifle which has the ability to skip past force fields using jamming tech.

Put it on a Machine Person, a race within the TGE...

Have Machine Person skip past forcefield, make physical contact with the ship, do a Machine-Meld...

Now you control enemy ship?

If you had a Machine Person renegade working for the CCW, or a Machine Person working for TGE who stole a Silverhawk, this would be a huge crippler against enemy ships, particularly the larger ones that are easy to hide on/in.

I am not sure that a machine person can meld and take over a starship. I personally doubt they could take over a large multi crew vehicle like a tank let alone a full on starship. Though I guess a rules lawyer could argue that it does say 'machine' ....

I imagine it simply depends on where the control systems are relative to the Machine Person, given their abilities I imagine somewhere within 15' of where they are they could extend control tendrils far enough to take control.

Tor wrote:It does say that once the meld is completed that they're an overriding force in control that can't be subverted or taken away...

So odds are the TGE already has Machine Person pilots controlling all their major ships, to prevent rogue Machine People from taking control.

The guarantee the current pilot doesn't abuse their power is probably a Royal Kreeghor or Invincible Guardsman with a huge rune-sword pointed at their nuclear core.

It would seem like CCW is totally vulnerable to this tactic though... meaning they'd better keep real strict control of their Silverhawks, because even one falling into enemy TGE hands and making its way to a Machine Person could spell doom for their huge battleships.

Of course, since the process does take 1-6 melees, that is time where you could direct your protective fighter ships to blast the Machine-Silverhawk to atoms before the merge is complete.

Fighters could also destroy the controlling machine-person latched to the hull after the merger, meaning that control might only be temporary. So this is one major benefit to having a fighter escort.

Fighters would be less useful if a Machine Person cut their way deep into a CCW ship before merging, then you would need on-board PA and troops to locate them and kill them before you could take control back.

I think the debate is more that really large vehicles don't count as a single machine, but independant systems that are in the same structure. There is no ruling either way, but you could make the argument that a machine persons power only allows them to control a single system or section at a time, and that each section/system is redudntant to the point it counts as it's own machine. so the "Ship" isn't actually a machine, but a building housing a bunch of different machines. same reason why a machine person can't take over every computer in a house, just one at a time.

Tor wrote:It does say that once the meld is completed that they're an overriding force in control that can't be subverted or taken away...

Yepp. The only problem is, that DMB2 pg 79 says that "some vehicles have anti-intrusion systems (the robot has to save vs psionics or receive a nasty bolt doing 2d6 MD and MELDING IS IMPOSSIBLE."

Also, a Noro (or anyone with the proper psilite device) can kick a hacker out rather quickly.

So, IMO a MAchine person has to disable the anti-intrusion system, hack the computer system of the ship (with +15% and rather quick, I have to admit) to be able to control it,
until the crew impliments the anti-intrusion measures.

All in all, a well organised sabouteur (or better, a sabouteur team) can do it, a single boarding Silverhawk pilot in the heat of a space battle has a way smaller chance.