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First off, whenever a topic come up on multi-OOCs, people come out of the woodwork stating it can't be done. I go off of this link for my rules: http://palladiumbooks.com/questions/noncombat.html

If this doesn't fit with your belief in how Rifts should be run, feel free just ignore my post rather than start a flame war with those that do.

So, assume you have a character that is a Psi-Nullifier. As I read the description their powers are either reflexive if attacked or intentionally directed. So the Psi-Nullifier should be able to cast spells if he picks up a magic using OCC. Granted he won't be gaining more ISP while progressing in the magic using OCC, but it sounds reasonable that he will still get use out of both psionic and magic using abilities at roughly 2/3 the level of other party members levels.

Can others point out some of the potential weaknesses they see with this combination?
Any particular magic using OCCs that you see as combining really well?

Thanks,
Mal

As per the 1st sentence of the Psi-N. text the char is a Master Psychic (a PCC) or a Psi Stalker (a Psychic RCC or to say a Racial PCC).

There is nothing stopping a Psi-Nullifier from changing to a magic OCC, but if they did, they'd have to expend extra PPE when casting spells on themselves or anyone closeby to compensate for the PPE negated by their ISP.

Tor wrote:There is nothing stopping a Psi-Nullifier from changing to a magic OCC, but if they did, they'd have to expend extra PPE when casting spells on themselves or anyone closeby to compensate for the PPE negated by their ISP.

Except that bit about the PN's are PCCs that stops them from being able to change their class. As per the only published changing class rules. Which only cover OCC's.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:There is nothing stopping a Psi-Nullifier from changing to a magic OCC, but if they did, they'd have to expend extra PPE when casting spells on themselves or anyone closeby to compensate for the PPE negated by their ISP.

Except that bit about the PN's are PCCs that stops them from being able to change their class. As per the only published changing class rules. Which only cover OCC's.

Did you read the OP? You know the one that said "these are the rules we are using to allow this?" You know the ones that say this is legal. Or the part that said "If this doesn't fit with your belief in how Rifts should be run, feel free just ignore my post rather than start a flame war with those that do."

Now as to actually talking ON topic instead of some random similar topic.
I like Tor's idea actually. I would go with that. It makes sense, has nice flavor, and allows for a unique combination with out overwhelming power.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Except that bit about the PN's are PCCs that stops them from being able to change their class. As per the only published changing class rules. Which only cover OCC's.

It's been proven already that PCCs are OCCs, the phrasing in PF2 was clear about it, and the rules apply to psychic classes, this is explicit in the errata.

Tor In PF2 it states, As you know, that PCCs can not change their class....AT ALL. And Like I said in the other topic, In no place does it state that PCC's are OCC's, nor POCC's. So stop being an donkey and saying non-truths. You are getting boring. *yawns*

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Tor In PF2 it states, As you know, that PCCs can not change their class....AT ALL. And Like I said in the other topic, In no place does it state that PCC's are OCC's, nor POCC's. So stop being an donkey and saying non-truths. You are getting boring. *yawns*

Where does it say PCC's cant change classes? I know that it says in certain PCCs that THOSE PCC's cant change. But 1) if it was a general rule then why repeat it for each class. and 2) class specific rules can't really be generalized to cover other classes

All of which is irrelevant for a discussion about a RIFTS game that is using the FAQ rules for RIFTS class changes.

on a side note, ad hominem attacks are considered a fallacy because they don't prove anything

For 1 there are no published changing class rules for PCC's to change there class. In Fact the only published changing class rules actually are forbidden by the rules from being used on PCC's.

2..The afore mentioned directly stated rule that PCC's can't change class which are for all PCC's. This is a PCC specific rule not a one of a specific class.

The Why's of why PCC's can't change classes. An explanation for those who can't...won't... figure it out for themselves.
1 Because the PCC defines what the nature char is along with the powers they have.
2 This happens because the nature of the char shapes the psi-powers they have thus becoming the PCC.
3~Because it is the nature of the char is involved with what they become it is impossible to change what they are without changing or getting rid of the "Whys and Wherefores" of why the char is a PCC.

In other words, until they don't have why they are a PCC they can't be anything else but that PCC.
Yes, this means they have to Stop Being a PCC before they can be another class, but can't stop being a PCC without loosing their Psi powers. But there are not rules for a Psion to loose their powers in canon. *shrugs* so PCC's are stuck being their PCC's.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Tor In PF2 it states, As you know, that PCCs can not change their class....AT ALL.

Wrong, this is never stated for PCCs as a whole, it is stated repeatedly under the individual classes, which makes it clear that it is a limitation unique to them and not all psychic OCCs.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In no place does it state that PCC's are OCC's, nor POCC's. So stop being an donkey and saying non-truths. You are getting boring.

You have a short memory, guess I gotta pull out the book. Per PF2ndOctober98thirdprinting...

5: specifies list of OCCs at 62
62: "list of OCCs" again, "Psychics" among them
155 left: (discussing PCCS) "characters of other OCCs". This would be like me discussing wolven and saying "characters of other races". It implies a collective group, wolven being a race, PCCs being OCCs.
155 right: "Master psionic characters, including all psychics OCCs or PCCs"
157/159/160/162 "OCC skills" and "OCC related skills" used for all of them
289/291 "Occupational Character Classes (OCCs and PCCs): Any"
300 "OCCs available to Goblins: ... vagabond, and the occasional psychic"
308 "OCCs available to Trolls: Any, except psychic PCCs"

Now please stop me repeating this every time, I can never remember where I post it and I don't want to have to save it in a notepad document to copypasta every time someone forgets.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:For 1 there are no published changing class rules for PCC's to change there class.

Yes, there are, the multiple OCC rules. I've proven that PCCs are OCCs per PF2.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In Fact the only published changing class rules actually are forbidden by the rules from being used on PCC's.

Only particular ones, not all of them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:2..The afore mentioned directly stated rule that PCC's can't change class which are for all PCC's. This is a PCC specific rule not a one of a specific class.

What page number? All I've ever seen forbidding it are specific statements under distinct PCC entries, not any whole ruling.

And You know very well that when it says "available OCC's" that it means a generalized "what classes the race can take" not saying that all classes are OCC's.

You Tor are one one not reading past the typos and shortcuts the writers take. Why are these typos and shortcuts made/done? ggggeeeee maybe cause the bulk of the classes are OCC's duuuuhhhhhh.

The only published canon changing class rules in the PF High Seas book only cover OCC's, seeing this in relation with the rules that prohibit PCC's from changing class says that PCC's are not OCC's. This takes president over any Typo or shortcuts the writers take.

If fact if you keep mind that PCCs are describing "the nature of the char" and not the job of the char it is quite easily recognize The typos and the usage shortcuts that are being used by the writers

page 62 that is the list of classes, the use of OCC is the generalized usage of "these are the classes available" A duh moment.
page 155 other occ's another generalized moment meaning the Other classes.
page 155 all psychic Occ or PCCs...duh moment this is saying that all the PCC's listed as OCCs are PCC's.

Skills sections Typos resultant from a C&P'ed skills template. I know this cause they make the same typo with RCC's too.

289 & 291 It starts off with the generalized "What classes are available to the chars of this race" and Confirming that OCC's and PCC's are different types of classes.

300 & 308 the use of OCC is the generalized "what classes can they take". more Duh moments.

All you have proved is that you have been misreading what was being said.

Some things that say PCC's are not anything but PCC's.
Page 156 The section titles Psychic Character Classes
page 156 2nd sent.: "This Psychic Character Class (P.C.C.)..."
Page 156 Psychic Sensitive PCC
Page 156 [from the text] The mind mage is among the most feared PCC's on the planet
Page 157 Psychic Sensitive PCC beginning of the skills section
Page 158Psi-Healer PCC
158 [from the text] The psi-healer is the most respected and honored of all the psionic PCC's. (yep, it even includes a typo.)
158 Psi-healer (beginning of the skills section)
159 Psi-Mystic PCC
160 Psi-Mystic PCC (beginning of the skills section)
161 Mind Mage PCC
162 Mind mage PCC (beginning of the skills section)

In the newest PF book Mysteries of Magic on page 17 under the "It is during adolescence..." paragraph it distinctly says there are OCC's RCC's and PCC's.

Old Ones Book II page the Illusionist PCC. (the prohibition against changing classes is confirmed, and that ALL the setting PCC's can not change their class. It even has the same skills C&P typos and generalized 'OCC' meaning 'class' usage in the Major/Master table.)

As to why I even mention the part about the Illusionist PCC not being able to change its class too? It shows that ALL of the PCC's in the setting with the only published canon changing class rules can not change their class. Thus when using said rules, any PCC's, whether they are labeled as such or not, can not use the said changing class rules. The said changing class rules have to be used in context with the setting they are from otherwise they are 'non-canon'.

And in the Here is a Megavercial Rule I stumbled on while looking things up on page 155 PF MB.

They are hereditary traits shared by humans and many intelligent life forms in the Megaverse™. Humans and human-like races (elves, dwarves, ogres, etc.) are ether born with active psionic abilities or not.

Then later in the text, something that is related.

If no psionics is rolled, the character has no psionic abilities nor can he ever develop any.

Drew I'm reading the text as written. Why should I assume it is wrong? Do you have any source saying that PCC isn't an OCC? That "psychic character class" isn't merely shorthand for "psychic occupational character class"?

You're calling these things 'typos' when the don't agree with your view, but I've consistently shown PCCs to be referred to as OCCs, it's not an isolated mistake, it's an underlying theme.

There is absolutely no such rule you have shown that prevent PCCs (as a category) from having multiple OCCs, merely specific restrictions under particular classes. The restriction applies to them, but not PCCs lacking that repeated restriction.

'sides, if you were right about PCCs not being an OCC, a PCC could still switch to ONE of the OCCs, since 'multiple' means 2+.

The pages you have cited do not explicitly say "say PCC's are not anything but PCC's". I'm actually not sure what you're attempting to communicate by this paraphrasing.

As I have provided examples showing PCCs to be OCCs, you must provide a direct contradiction. A mere omission of the term 'OCC' is not adequate to disprove my evidence.

We know full well that there are means for non-psychics to develope psionics (psi-cola, for example, which can give them permanently) so clearly that phrase 'can't develope them' would indicate spontaneous psionics and not ones acquired through external means.

They could not teach themself psionics, but they could be taught them by another, or imbued through some other means. Evidence exists of this in most games.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Old Ones Book II page the Illusionist PCC. (the prohibition against changing classes is confirmed, and that ALL the setting PCC's can not change their class. It even has the same skills C&P typos and generalized 'OCC' meaning 'class' usage in the Major/Master table.)

As to why I even mention the part about the Illusionist PCC not being able to change its class too? It shows that ALL of the PCC's in the setting with the only published canon changing class rules can not change their class. Thus when using said rules, any PCC's, whether they are labeled as such or not, can not use the said changing class rules. The said changing class rules have to be used in context with the setting they are from otherwise they are 'non-canon'.

No it shows that those PCCs can not change classes. Class specific rules are NOT universal, they apply to that class, not every other class that shares a feature of that class. YOU can make a House Rule about that, but that is not canon, and as your sig suggests, that house rule should be clearly labeled as such and not presented as canon.

Also, it should be noted that the limitations in the PCCs are different than the limits in the Class Changing section. Also the rules in High Seas are different that the rules in the FAQ (which is what was mentioned here)
While High Seas does support the idea that you cant change INTO most psychic classes, it does not say that you can't change OUT OF them. Some of the specific PCCs have said that they can't change class, implying that people can't train into or out of them. However there is nothing that I am aware of that makes a blanket statement that PCCs can not change classes. With out such a statement then the idea of a PCC training into an OCC would be legal. ESPECIALLY since the FAQ rules explicitly allow people that have an RCC to change into another class, AND to change BACK to their RCC. The FAQ rules also explicitly allow a person with psionics to change classes, AND they allow a person to GAIN psionics by taking a class that has them.

*yawns*
ALL PCC's in PFRPG 2nd ed can not change their class. All five of them. And you say that that is not a deliberate pattern to show that PCC's can't change their class?*rhetorical*

If you do not use the only published changing class rules as per that setting's rules then everyone is stuck not changing class at all. Because there is no other published canon changing class rules.

Yep, there are Optional Changing class rules posted in the cutting room floor for rifts.

FAQ changing class texts.....those don't even make it to optional rules.

Thus, if you want to use canon changing class rules there is but one choice. But even then they are only available if the game's GM imports them from PF, along with it's limitations.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:*yawns*
ALL PCC's in PFRPG 2nd ed can not change their class. All five of them. And you say that that is not a deliberate pattern to show that PCC's can't change their class?*rhetorical*

Its a nice pattern, but its STILL PCC specific until such time as an actual blanket rule is made. House rules are nice, but not canon.
Also note that the fact that INDIVIDUAL classes have to have a note, suggests that the note is 1) needed and 2) that since its NOT a blanket rule, but PCC specific, that there ARE PCC's that can change.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you do not use the only published changing class rules as per that setting's rules then everyone is stuck not changing class at all. Because there is no other published canon changing class rules.

Yep, there are Optional Changing class rules posted in the cutting room floor for rifts.

FAQ changing class texts.....those don't even make it to optional rules.

Thus, if you want to use canon changing class rules there is but one choice. But even then they are only available if the game's GM imports them from PF, along with it's limitations.

If you would bother to read the thread, your 'no choice' is totally false. Contrary to your own personal views there are two other great sources. The cutting room floor and the FAQ. Please note that the OP clearly stated that they are using the FAQ rules, which would mean that, for purposes of their question....those are the rules. Basic reading skills there.

As the PF rules....I am still waiting for a specific quote that makes a blanket statement that you can not change to or from a P.C.C.
So...what limitations? One class change? Check. Become a magic OCC? Check.

Man... Exactly what I was hoping to avoid.

Two completely different view points. One, IMO, is based on assumptions and extrapolations. The other based on the English language and logic (actual logic, as found in academics).

Now that I think about it. I should have realized that this would happen again.
One side makes assumptions and extrapolations when reading my post.
The other side answered my question based on the English language.

Thanks for the comments,
Mal

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:ALL PCC's in PFRPG 2nd ed can not change their class. All five of them. And you say that that is not a deliberate pattern to show that PCC's can't change their class?*rhetorical*

That's exactly what we're saying. A rule prohibiting ALL psychic classes from multiple OCCs would have been easy to put in.

Instead, we're actually told explicitly in the multiple OCC rules that psychics, like mages, require you to advance to third level to earn it, rather than two.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you do not use the only published changing class rules as per that setting's rules then everyone is stuck not changing class at all. Because there is no other published canon changing class rules. Yep, there are Optional Changing class rules posted in the cutting room floor for rifts.

For Rifts? If you check out http://palladium-megaverse.com/index.ph ... Itemid=200 the 'Dual OCCs' is listed as errata left out of PF2nd, not Rifts.

Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition

Missing PFRPG Elements:
Missing W.P.s,
Armor Notes
Nightowls, Elves Notes
Missing Spells
Dual O.C.C.s
S.D.C. of Shields

see? http://palladium-megaverse.com/index.ph ... Itemid=200

Characters that wish to learn a new O.C.C. must first advance at least one level in their current O.C.C./R.C.C. At second level (or wherever desired), they may opt for training in the new O.C.C. as SOON as they reach that new level (it cannot be done after they have advanced in their new experience level).

When the character begins their new training, they are zero-level in the new O.C.C. The character must earn experience points equal to the new O.C.C.'s second level (if Men of arms or adventurers) or third level (if magical or psychic). When that amount of experience points is acquired, the character has passed their apprenticeship and is now at first level in his new O.C.C.

Once characters change over to their new O.C.C., they retain their old skills (but frozen at the levels they achieved before the change) but all new PPE, S.D.C., and other increases will be based upon their new O.C.C. ALL new experience points are awarded to the new O.C.C.

These rules easily work in other games, due Palladium's interchangeable-Megaverse feature and intent.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:FAQ changing class texts.....those don't even make it to optional rules.

But luckily, the PF2nd errata is of higher caliber:

On the "cutting room floor," you will find things that went out of print, were forgotten or left out for other reasons, along with general errata and excluded material from various books.

It's just as canonical as the Bio-Borgs and Russian Gods in the Rifter, which were left out of Splynn and Mystic Russia due to space concerns. They, and the multiple OCC rules, are explicit canon, just like that PDF which corrected RUE errors.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:if you want to use canon changing class rules there is but one choice. But even then they are only available if the game's GM imports them from PF, along with it's limitations.

What limitations?

68. Can a Psychic RCC from rifts choose to adopt a Non-Psychic OCC at higher levels? Like, lets say a Psi-Tech becoming an Operator to better his grasp of the mechanical skills.

Answer: They can change OCC's but cannot select a R.C.C.

Maybe someone sited this already. But if not...

Mal

@ Malleable
Ignoring the part about PCC's not being able to change class.

And ignoring that psychics would not have a significant amount of PPE because it got permanently burned off while developing their powers and into an adult. PF book Mysteries of Magic on page 17 under the "It is during adolescence..." paragraph.
(Oh gee another hotly denied item by rifters who what to munchkinize things.)

Yes, ignoring all of that, P-N's could take a magic class.
--------------

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:*yawns*
ALL PCC's in PFRPG 2nd ed can not change their class. All five of them. And you say that that is not a deliberate pattern to show that PCC's can't change their class?*rhetorical*

Its a nice pattern, but its STILL PCC specific until such time as an actual blanket rule is made. House rules are nice, but not canon.
Also note that the fact that INDIVIDUAL classes have to have a note, suggests that the note is 1) needed and 2) that since its NOT a blanket rule, but PCC specific, that there ARE PCC's that can change.

Actually there would need to be text specifically about the PCC's being Included in the rules since every single one of the PF PCC's have already been excluded from them.
------------
http://palladium-megaverse.com/index.ph ... Itemid=200
And all those errata have been superseded by the published texts, most of them appear in the same gamebook as the canon changing OCC rules. I don't know why those pages have not been changed to reflect the published canon rules or taken down.

And again, that text uses the shortcut of using OCC to mean CLASS.
*shrugs* You would also note that the posted errata actually conflicts with the published rules that PF PCC's are precluded from changing their class.

I don't see why you bring up Bio-Borgs and Russian Gods got published in a gamebook. No different from the errata of PF1 spells that were converted for PF2 in an earlier Rifter, or the extra text from Rifts China 2 that got printed in a Rifter.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Ignoring the part about PCC's not being able to change class.

There is no such part. There is a part about Psi-Mystics being unable to change their class, the Psychic Sensitive being unable to change their class, etc. We're not ignoring those. We're just not summarizing them in an encompassing manner like you are.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:ignoring that psychics would not have a significant amount of PPE because it got permanently burned off while developing their powers and into an adult.

Some psychic classes have as much or sometimes more PPE than an average human adult will roll, so any penalty you would put on a Psi-Nullifier becoming a mage would penalize normal humans even more. Psi-Nullifiers have over triple the amount of PPE an average human does in Rifts.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:PF book Mysteries of Magic on page 17 under the "It is during adolescence..." paragraph. (Oh gee another hotly denied item by rifters who what to munchkinize things.)

Drew, the rules for changing to magic OCCs exist in PF, and PCCs which aren't restricted from doing so include some in Nightbane, so I would request you not engage in name-calling like Rifters as if to imply someone has a Rifts-preferred viewpoint for disagreeing with you.

I don't ignore that paragraph. I actually agree with you that people who begin learning magic as children/teens should have far more PPE than someone who waits until adulthood to begin doing it.

The main problem is that we don't really have any rules to reflect this... about the only fix I've ever heard of is 'guys who switch to magic only get the per-level, not the base PPE', but sadly even that I think was a houserule.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there would need to be text specifically about the PCC's being Included in the rules since every single one of the PF PCC's have already been excluded from them.

The rules discuss changing to a psychic class. That means a PCC. That means an exception, if we actually need one, which we don't.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:all those errata have been superseded by the published texts

No, it hasn't. What I linked to you was Palladium saying they were forced to leave something out due to space concerns, but that it is fully canon. Different Multiple OCC rules were also introduced in Adventures on the High Seas. These do not explicitly deny using the original means of multi-classing though, the ones present in PRPG and reprinted in the official PF2nd errata.

Whether to use the old way (don't get new class until level 2/3) or the new way (become new class immediately but pay double if different, max 2 classes) is pretty much up to the players since the Seas version never states it is the ONLY rules to use for multi-classing. Just that, if you opt to want to become the class immediately (instead of putting in your XP dues) you are going to get slammed by a 'can't use this way again' and a potential 'pay double' penalty.

The Seas version also says nothing about 'no PCCs'. Psychic classes aren't mentioned simply because there's no longer variable level two/three payment that needs to be pointed out anymore. PCCs remain OCCs per main book text, and only those classes forbidding multi-classing can't use it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:that text uses the shortcut of using OCC to mean CLASS.

Does it? Or does this view just fit better with your preconceptions about what a PCC is?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:*shrugs* You would also note that the posted errata actually conflicts with the published rules that PF PCC's are precluded from changing their class.

There is no conflict, the rules for psychic class-changing exist for PCCs besides those in the main book, perhaps some planned for future sourcebooks which lack such restrictions. We may have yet to see them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I don't see why you bring up Bio-Borgs and Russian Gods got published in a gamebook. No different from the errata of PF1 spells that were converted for PF2 in an earlier Rifter, or the extra text from Rifts China 2 that got printed in a Rifter.

My point is that printing something left out of an official book in a Rifter is similar to printing something left out of an official book on the website. The website is just as official as the rifter. We might assume something to be 'fanon' by default, except where it's explicitly errata. Errata is different than mere Q+A.

Ohh, good find Tor. I completely forgot about the Errata. Yah, I would say that Official Errata is about as canon as it gets. And if it says that you can become a psychic, then by golly you can become a psychic. (as long as its not a Psi-Mystic, Psi-healer, Psi-Sensitive, Mind Mage, or Psi-Illusionist.)

Using the Errata/FAQ rules as your basis. Yes, a Psi-Nullifier could later take a magic OCC. While this would be beyond extremely unlikely I guess it is technically possible.

However as was mentioned earlier the main weakness would be, since the Psi-Nullifiers disruption powers are involuntary and is unleashed against any spell cast within 10 feet of him he would always be having to spend extra PPE to make sure his own spells would work. Which would mke the character a very inefficient caster.

42dragon wrote:Using the Errata/FAQ rules as your basis. Yes, a Psi-Nullifier could later take a magic OCC. While this would be beyond extremely unlikely I guess it is technically possible.

However as was mentioned earlier the main weakness would be, since the Psi-Nullifiers disruption powers are involuntary and is unleashed against any spell cast within 10 feet of him he would always be having to spend extra PPE to make sure his own spells would work. Which would mke the character a very inefficient caster.

Could make for an interesting bit of RP though for someone who likes those kinds of challenges, some like being horribly hampered and crippled.

So I am having difficulty determining how the ability really works.

First off, he has psionic powers. Now if the nullification field is automatic, and works against any spell he casts, it should work against his own psionic powers, right?
But it says nothing about that - which I think it would. And if it doesnt affect their own psions, there is no reason to believe it affects their own spells.

Then so much of the stuff written that conflicts with other stuff in the description.

"As soon as a psychic, magic practitioner or supernatural menace
comes within range..." - doesn't happen if you are casting yourself, as you don't come within range of yourself.
"... or focuses their mental will or magic for an attack against the Psi-Nullifier, he instinctively floods his attacker(s) with a wave of negative psychic energy." Doesnt happen since there are no attackers.
"Note: The nullification power is a reflex action that responds to all (even multiple) psionic and magic attacks directed at him (including area affect spells) as well as any unleashed within 10 feet of him." Doesnt happen either because this only specifies attacks directed at him or near him, not any casting or psions that aren't attacks.

Mal

This we know about from canon. (i.e.: stuff that really can't be denied even if you want to argue otherwise.)
~That calling PCC's Psychic OCCs is a Tuck of Natasha Singing. As per Kevin S's personal statement in RUE.
~That PCC's have been mislabeled as RCC's and POCC's and OCC's.
~That some OCC's have been mislabeled as PCC's in the BTS books.
~That RUE says to use the PF:High Seas changing class rules.
~That all PCC's in the PF setting can not change their class to something else while they are still PCC's. (i.e. while that are still defined by their powers.)
~That PCC's, other the the Mystics & Psi-Mystics, have perm. burned off nearly all their PPE to acquirng their Psi abilities. Most ending up with 2-8 PPE.
~That if a char has not, at the time of char creation, not gotten a positive roll for Psi abilities that they can not develop psi abilities later because their race's Psionic potential is not expressed in that individual.
~That there are three different types of Char Classes: PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.
~That the Changing Class Rules in the PF:HS book only covers OCC's, with no provisions to cover ether PCC's nor RCC's.
~That PB is quite capable of publishing things in the Rifters if they want them published as canon but there is no room for them in a regular gamebook.
~That in the PF setting a char over the age of 20 can only change to the forsaken mage class if is changed to a magic class.

What do all of these canon rules tell us:
~There are PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.
~That even if the PCC's are mislabeled as POCC's or RCC's they are still PCC's.
~That PCC's are not OCC's.
~That the PF: High Seas changing class rules are the official published canon for both Post RUE Rifts and PFRPG.
~That in Rifts and PFRPG only OCC's can change their class. Not PCC's not POCC's nor RCC's.
~That chars with OCC's and RCC's can not change to a PCC because, for nearly all of them, they do not have their race's psychic potential expressed in them.
~That Published Rules take precedent when comparing them with any posted rules. Thus making said posted rules on par with what is normally published in the Rifters.....optional.
~That for adult chars who change to a mage class, the amount of PPE should be reduced by half, the spells costing 20% more to cast, range & durations reduced by 20%, and can not learn spells above Level 8.
--------
Malleable,
You did bring up the biggest quandary within your idea....that thing about a PN power automatically activating if a practitioner of magic gets too close. And since the char himself can not get out of range from himself that is a bit big bite to swallow.

Course, following a different canon rule, if your GM likes the idea then he can make things possible by GM fiat. If you are Said GM you have 'carte blanche' to bend and twist, or simply ignore, the rules for your game how you see fit for your game.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:This we know about from canon. (i.e.: stuff that really can't be denied even if you want to argue otherwise.)
~That calling PCC's Psychic OCCs is a Tuck of Natasha Singing. As per Kevin S's personal statement in RUE.

that's one way of interpreting those rules....but since some of the psychic classes have ALWAYS been OCCs (operator, techno-wizard, Cyber-Knight....even if we accept this view, we don't know for certain what classes are 'supposed to be' PCCs and which are 'supposed to be' OCCs....but that's okay, since we can just use what is written, since hey, its what was written.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's have been mislabeled as RCC's and POCC's and OCC's.

I would say that what is officially published is the correct canon, as it has been published. If its not a 'mistake' until its changed

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That some OCC's have been mislabeled as PCC's in the BTS books.

Again your personal view. They are listed as PCC's so, they are PCCs in canon/RAW

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That RUE says to use the PF:High Seas changing class rules.
~That all PCC's in the PF setting can not change their class to something else while they are still PCC's. (i.e. while that are still defined by their powers.)

Err yes, you can not change your class while still being the old class......

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's, other the the Mystics & Psi-Mystics, have perm. burned off nearly all their PPE to acquirng their Psi abilities. Most ending up with 2-8 PPE.

So what? Most NORMAL people have burned off their PPE....and they can still change into mages.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That if a char has not, at the time of char creation, not gotten a positive roll for Psi abilities that they can not develop psi abilities later because their race's Psionic potential is not expressed in that individual.

Not specifically true. Since the TW has always been a Men-of-Magic OCC, and it has psionics. Same with the cyber-knight. Both of which specifically say that the psionics come from training. The roll for 'random psionics' is NOT a roll for 'do you have any psi talent at all' it is a roll for 'random psionics that have been expressed' Do not confuse the two.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That there are three different types of Char Classes: PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.

Not in RUE

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That the Changing Class Rules in the PF:HS book only covers OCC's, with no provisions to cover ether PCC's nor RCC's.

Going TO OCC's though. (and the PF2 rules even cover going to psychic classes)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PB is quite capable of publishing things in the Rifters if they want them published as canon but there is no room for them in a regular gamebook.

They however are under no obligation to do so.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That in the PF setting a char over the age of 20 can only change to the forsaken mage class if is changed to a magic class.

Source? It says that that is one cause....so is being female, or certain races. The OCC rules for mage have no mention that this is a limit, nor does it say in the Forsaken Mage that. This is not canon, its your personal house rule, please do not push it as canon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What do all of these canon rules tell us:
~There are PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.

Again, not in RUE

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That even if the PCC's are mislabeled as POCC's or RCC's they are still PCC's.

Again, sorry but you do not get to pick what is 'mislabeled' What is published is the official canon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's are not OCC's.

Except in RUE

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That the PF: High Seas changing class rules are the official published canon for both Post RUE Rifts and PFRPG.

They are offered as guides. The Official rules in the PF2 Errata are ALSO canon for PF, and can also be used in Rifts

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That in Rifts and PFRPG only OCC's can change their class. Not PCC's not POCC's nor RCC's.

Again you saying something doesn't make it true. The rules say that you can learn a new OCC, it does not say you cant leave an RCC, PCC, or anything else.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That chars with OCC's and RCC's can not change to a PCC because, for nearly all of them, they do not have their race's psychic potential expressed in them.

Official Source?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That Published Rules take precedent when comparing them with any posted rules. Thus making said posted rules on par with what is normally published in the Rifters.....optional.

The Errata is official, there for it is Canon. You not liking it does not make it less official.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That for adult chars who change to a mage class, the amount of PPE should be reduced by half, the spells costing 20% more to cast, range & durations reduced by 20%, and can not learn spells above Level 8.

If that were the case, then it would be officially posted someplace. Its not, this is a house rule, again please clearly label your house rules and do not present them as canon

42dragon wrote:Using the Errata/FAQ rules as your basis. Yes, a Psi-Nullifier could later take a magic OCC. While this would be beyond extremely unlikely I guess it is technically possible.

However as was mentioned earlier the main weakness would be, since the Psi-Nullifiers disruption powers are involuntary and is unleashed against any spell cast within 10 feet of him he would always be having to spend extra PPE to make sure his own spells would work. Which would mke the character a very inefficient caster.

The real min-maxer would be Nega-Psychics who learn magic. Traditional BTS ones couldn't since they didn't believe in it, but the Psyscape versions certainly could. Their power is voluntary-only so there would be no interference.

Mages are also capable of getting a psi-implant to gain Nega-Psychic abilities, so it's probably happened by now.

Malleable wrote:First off, he has psionic powers. Now if the nullification field is automatic, and works against any spell he casts, it should work against his own psionic powers, right? But it says nothing about that - which I think it would. And if it doesnt affect their own psions, there is no reason to believe it affects their own spells.

Our logically assuming a built-in exception for self-psionics for the psychic class does not extend to our assuming this personal immunity would affect their own spells.

Malleable wrote:"As soon as a psychic, magic practitioner or supernatural menace
comes within range..." - doesn't happen if you are casting yourself, as you don't come within range of yourself.
"... or focuses their mental will or magic for an attack against the Psi-Nullifier, he instinctively floods his attacker(s) with a wave of negative psychic energy." Doesnt happen since there are no attackers.
"Note: The nullification power is a reflex action that responds to all (even multiple) psionic and magic attacks directed at him (including area affect spells) as well as any unleashed within 10 feet of him." Doesnt happen either because this only specifies attacks directed at him or near him, not any casting or psions that aren't attacks.

I suppose reading it literally, it wouldn't apply to healing or protective spells cast on them either, not being attacks. *shrug* Not as fun that way though.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:This we know about from canon. (i.e.: stuff that really can't be denied even if you want to argue otherwise.)

I don't accept that your paraphrasing your view of the book is undeniable. The only thing that can't be denied are direct quotes. Interpretations are all capable of being judged or denied.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That calling PCC's Psychic OCCs is a Tuck of Natasha Singing. As per Kevin S's personal statement in RUE.

I don't understand this reference, but deny whatever you're saying without a RUE quote.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's have been mislabeled as RCC's and POCC's and OCC's.

I deny this. The 'best' label is a subjective issue. It is your personal (and deniable) viewpoint that PCC is a superior reference than RCC or POCC or OCC.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That some OCC's have been mislabeled as PCC's in the BTS books.

I assume you mean Beyond? One might think the initialism references Between, too.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That RUE says to use the PF:High Seas changing class rules.

It does? COOL! Page? I checked the OCC list (including psychics) on page 43 and got stuck, don't know where to check next for this gem. Does it also say we can't use the official errata omitted from PF2, or that we can't use the original rules from PRPG?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That all PCC's in the PF setting can not change their class to something else while they are still PCC's. (i.e. while that are still defined by their powers.)

There is a difference between 'all examples so far' and 'all PCCs'. The latter would apply to new classes even if they lacked that disclaimer.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's, other the the Mystics & Psi-Mystics, have perm. burned off nearly all their PPE to acquirng their Psi abilities. Most ending up with 2-8 PPE.

Except, you know, the topic of the thread, who has triple normal human PPE, who you are conveniently ignoring. Or Nega-Psychics, who have even more.

Or that mages can burn off PPE can still cast spells, just be limited in how many, or how advanced, if they burn off too much.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That if a char has not, at the time of char creation, not gotten a positive roll for Psi abilities that they can not develop psi abilities later because their race's Psionic potential is not expressed in that individual.

False, this interpretation is disproven by various book content. The cyberknights who have 'no psionics' rolled being a great example of learned psionics in spite of no natural roll.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That there are three different types of Char Classes: PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.

Wrong. The categories (man at arms, practitioner of magic, adventurer, psychic) not to mention power categories in HU, also qualify as character class type.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That the Changing Class Rules in the PF:HS book only covers OCC's, with no provisions to cover ether PCC's nor RCC's.

~That PB is quite capable of publishing things in the Rifters if they want them published as canon but there is no room for them in a regular gamebook.
~That in the PF setting a char over the age of 20 can only change to the forsaken mage class if is changed to a magic class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What do all of these canon rules tell us:
~There are PCC's, RCC's and OCC's.
~That even if the PCC's are mislabeled as POCC's or RCC's they are still PCC's.

Wrong, the rules have never stated that.

If you can look to the old version of Rifts and insist that a Mind Melter is not an OCC, then I can look to the old version of PRPG and insist that a Mind Mage is an OCC, not a PCC. Works both ways.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That PCC's are not OCC's.

They have never stated this. To the contrary, we explicitly know PCCs are OCCs and you discount anything contradicting your viewpoint as a 'mistake', while having nothing but assumptions to support that view.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That the PF: High Seas changing class rules are the official published canon for both Post RUE Rifts and PFRPG.

Web-publishing also being publishing, the errata are also official, as no reference has been made to High Seas' new rules being the only option now. Also looking forward to the RUE reference to this as being the ONLY way to go.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That in Rifts and PFRPG only OCC's can change their class. Not PCC's not POCC's nor RCC's.

OCCs in RUE like the Mind Melter?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That chars with OCC's and RCC's can not change to a PCC because, for nearly all of them, they do not have their race's psychic potential expressed in them.

This has never been stated.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That Published Rules take precedent when comparing them with any posted rules. Thus making said posted rules on par with what is normally published in the Rifters.....optional.

This has never been stated.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~That for adult chars who change to a mage class, the amount of PPE should be reduced by half, the spells costing 20% more to cast, range & durations reduced by 20%, and can not learn spells above Level 8.

...wut? Where do the rules say this? Is this in RUE or something? Page please, just wanna check. Is it in HoM perhaps? I'm all for reducing the PPE but I find the increased cost and range/duration reduction and level cap a bit strange, like something I would've remmebered seeing.

Could you be confusing aspects of Forsaken Mage OCCs as being a universal rule?

Except in RUE

Also in PRPG originally, Eliakon

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:[b]
You did bring up the biggest quandary within your idea....that thing about a PN power automatically activating if a practitioner of magic gets too close. And since the char himself can not get out of range from himself that is a bit big bite to swallow.

Well the problem is its not if a practitioner gets to close, its if they come within range. The latter is a action taken by the subject, the former is receiving which doesnt necessitate an action on the part of the PN. So the power is triggered by the actions of another. Granted other writing isn't worded as specifically. Hmmm.

A Psi-Nullifier comes within range of himself the moment he's born :/ I'm more concerned about the 'attack' language than the 'range' language.

Unless we assume the power has some means of discerning the nature of a spell or psionic power, I don't see how it could only react to 'attacks' but leave stuff like healing/armor powers/spells alone. I always assumed it reacted to anything until paying closer attention to it. I'd opt as a house rule to ignore the 'attack' and substitute 'ability', seems to fit it better.

If we look at the 'invisible to magic' in TTGD, or the 'Impervious to Psionics' in PU1, both have the disadvantage of interfering with beneficial spells too.

Eli
(Note, these are responses to your comments on canon rules.)
As per what Kevin S. Said in RUE, Rifts has been and does mislabel PCCs as RCC's & POCC's & OCC's, and the BTS OCC's as PCC. . You know Kevin is the guy at the top.
So, Yes, KS Said that it was an intentional mistake/mislabeling. As I have pointed out SEVERAL TIMES IN THIS TOPIC. That you and Tor do not accept this is not a problem associated with me. I have only pointing out what canon says.

I did define "...while they are still PCC's." as to be "while they are still defined by their powers." Which for someone who is not following the line of though at all, that means while they still have the Psi Powers of their PCC they can not change class.
`And since in game there is no mechanic for char's to loose their Psi Powers, the rules reflect this by saying PCC's just can't change their class.

Psionic ability: since a char's 1st Class is a part of char creation then picking a class with psi powers counts as being having psionics. Since you, well...it was you Eli., pointed out the psionic section in the PF2MB, so this canon rule should not be a surprise to you.

All Three class types are in RUE, As per K.S.'s statement in RUE, PCC's have just ben mislabeled in Rifts, and OCC's have been mislabeled in BTS.

PF2:HS Changing class rules only cover OCC's. See the rule about those w/o psionics not being able to gain psionics later. One rule does not stand alone from the other rules of the setting.

Over 20 yrs. of age...The PF:MOM1 book in "The Forsaken Mage" text. Top of page 66.

Noting that the following are responses to your comments on things based on the rules you already commented on.
Class Types: Again, yes there are. There is no doubt there are because the Top Man himself said so.

While they were Officially Mislabeled....they are still Mislabeled. As Kevin S. told everybody in RUE.

There are no exceptions on whether PCC's exist in Rifts, even post RUE rifts. K.S. himself said they exist.

RUE says to use the PF2:HS changing class rules. There is no doubt in this since it is the RUE gamebook.

Only OCC's are mentioned in the PF2:HS changing class rules. Taken along with the other rules that prohibit the other two class types from changing their class it means the PF2:HS changing class rules only cover what they say they cover.
I'm sorry but since the posted errata has been superseded by the published rules.

Again, the Psionics text in the Psionics section saying that chars that have not expressed their race's psionic potential can not later tap into that potential any more.

The PF2:HS rules are the Published Canon. Just because you do not like to admit it does not unmake them as Canon.

Geeee I did use the word "should". And that what you commented on you were informed were based on the after 20 yrs. canon stated above what you commented on.
Meaning that while it is based on the text in the Forsaken Mage text, it is more a suggestion then anything.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eli
(Note, these are responses to your comments on canon rules.)
As per what Kevin S. Said in RUE, Rifts has been and does mislabel PCCs as RCC's & POCC's & OCC's, and the BTS OCC's as PCC. . You know Kevin is the guy at the top.
So, Yes, KS Said that it was an intentional mistake/mislabeling. As I have pointed out SEVERAL TIMES IN THIS TOPIC. That you and Tor do not accept this is not a problem associated with me. I have only pointing out what canon says.

Care to share the exact page number so the rest of us can read this?

did define "...while they are still PCC's." as to be "while they are still defined by their powers." Which for someone who is not following the line of though at all, that means while they still have the Psi Powers of their PCC they can not change class.
`And since in game there is no mechanic for char's to loose their Psi Powers, the rules reflect this by saying PCC's just can't change their class.[/quote]
that's YOUR HOUSE RULE. The books do not say that 'defined by their powers' means 'has psionics' That is one way to rule it sure, but its not the CANON. It could just as easily mean they can't change while their self identity is based on their powers.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Psionic ability: since a char's 1st Class is a part of char creation then picking a class with psi powers counts as being having psionics. Since you, well...it was you Eli., pointed out the psionic section in the PF2MB, so this canon rule should not be a surprise to you.

Saddly though, picking a class with out psionics does NOT mean that you don't have them, nor does it mean you don't have the potential for them. Unless you have a quote from a book that says this, its a HOUSE RULE.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:All Three class types are in RUE, As per K.S.'s statement in RUE, PCC's have just ben mislabeled in Rifts, and OCC's have been mislabeled in BTS.

Again, I want to see the EXACT words used, not just your paraphrase of this statement. Page sources for both of these statements?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:PF2:HS Changing class rules only cover OCC's. See the rule about those w/o psionics not being able to gain psionics later. One rule does not stand alone from the other rules of the setting.

You cant use a personal house rule (if you didn't start with psi, you have no talent), then go back and say that "my house rule trumps canon, so your canon is wrong"

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Over 20 yrs. of age...The PF:MOM1 book in "The Forsaken Mage" text. Top of page 66.

Again your reading a rule "the person has squandered their PPE" and chosen to mean that to mean "thus must become a FOrsaken Mage" sadly it doesn't say that. Thus yes, the Canon rules for class change still work, even for Mages.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:RUE says to use the PF2:HS changing class rules. There is no doubt in this since it is the RUE gamebook.

Page Number?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Only OCC's are mentioned in the PF2:HS changing class rules. Taken along with the other rules that prohibit the other two class types from changing their class it means the PF2:HS changing class rules only cover what they say they cover.
I'm sorry but since the posted errata has been superseded by the published rules.

Interesting house rule. I look at that and note that
1) it says NOTHING about LEAVING a Psi class, that means that you CAN leave one, unless the specific class says you cant. Psi Nulifier does NOT have that caveat, thus canonically it CAN leave the class.
2) it says move INTO an OCC. If the target class is an OCC, then you can multiclass into it. TW is now, and always has been an OCC. But it has psionics, ergo if you train as a TW you get the psi. Same with the Cyber Knight.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Again, the Psionics text in the Psionics section saying that chars that have not expressed their race's psionic potential can not later tap into that potential any more.

Exact page reference? Sorry but I not taking your 'paraphrases' since you have already demonstrated that your accuracy leaves something to be desired (Forsaken Wizard for example)

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The PF2:HS rules are the Published Canon. Just because you do not like to admit it does not unmake them as Canon.

The PF2 rules are also canon. Which thus leads to TWO contradictory canon, for PF. The question of if they apply to RUE is still out since you have not provided the page number for your claim.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Geeee I did use the word "should". And that what you commented on you were informed were based on the after 20 yrs. canon stated above what you commented on.
Meaning that while it is based on the text in the Forsaken Mage text, it is more a suggestion then anything.

Not sure what this statement is meant as. Could you rephrase it in a non-insulting, non-condescending way?


In Summery.
You have never shown that a Psi-Nulifier is prohibited from leaving their class in canon
You have never shown that people with psionics can not take a second class
You have not shown that people taking a second class can not choose magic OCCs

So your relevance to the OP is?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As per what Kevin S. Said in RUE, Rifts has been and does mislabel PCCs as RCC's & POCC's & OCC's, and the BTS OCC's as PCC. . You know Kevin is the guy at the top.

So you're saying that somewhere in RUE, the book where Kevin made psychic classes "OCCs", he claimed that he was intentionally mislabelling them as OCCs? Something strikes me as odd about saying "this is a mislabel but Imma do it anyway, LOL". Which is why your paraphrasing is under scrutiny.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So, Yes, KS Said that it was an intentional mistake/mislabeling. As I have pointed out SEVERAL TIMES IN THIS TOPIC. That you and Tor do not accept this is not a problem associated with me. I have only pointing out what canon says.

You've referred to it but we just want to double-check the exact text, so what page has all this?

Just to show we're looking...RUEp42 "The Characters" RUEp138 "Psychic Characters" RUEp164 "Psionic Powers" But I can't seem to find the bit about the mistake. I seem to recall some part of the book discussing the R>O change but can't seem to relocate it, Im' thinking this might be what you refer to but if you could lend a bro a hand...

RUEp289 Step 4 notably still includes the phrase "psychic RCCs" Interesting thing about this... the way it's presented, which I think might be a tad different than RMB, seems to indicate that the 'third way' (random rolling) could supplement the psionics of either a psionic RCC or an OCC (TW/cyberknight/mystic) that gives them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:since in game there is no mechanic for char's to loose their Psi Powers

I thought full borg conversion did that initially. Until Warlords muddied the water.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the rules reflect this by saying PCC's just can't change their class.

Where's it say this? Was it you who said High Seas was referenced in RUE or someone else? Trying to find.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As per K.S.'s statement in RUE, PCC's have just ben mislabeled in Rifts, and OCC's have been mislabeled in BTS.

WHERE in RUE?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:PF2:HS Changing class rules only cover OCC's.

Which I maintain include PCCs due to PF2nd wording. HS seas are also not the only changing rules and people can opt to change that way or the PF2nd way. Both have their ups and downs.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:See the rule about those w/o psionics not being able to gain psionics later. One rule does not stand alone from the other rules of the setting.

That rule is not meant to be universal, it clearly means in the context of random rolls. You can always gain it later via a new OCC, a symbiote, being empowered by a foreign entity, Psi-Cola, etc. If we look at the Acolyte in TTGD they can start with no power and later opt to buy new psionics instead of skills.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Over 20 yrs. of age...The PF:MOM1 book in "The Forsaken Mage" text. Top of page 66.

Only applies to that OCC, not all changes. It's effectively a split class.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:While they were Officially Mislabeled....they are still Mislabeled. As Kevin S. told everybody in RUE.

You keep saying this, but it would be very helpful to have a page number.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are no exceptions on whether PCC's exist in Rifts, even post RUE rifts. K.S. himself said they exist.

Cool, where?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:RUE says to use the PF2:HS changing class rules. There is no doubt in this since it is the RUE gamebook.

Cool, where?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Only OCC's are mentioned in the PF2:HS changing class rules.

Which aren't the only rules on class-changing.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I'm sorry but since the posted errata has been superseded by the published rules.

Wrong, they have been SUPPLEMENTED by them. If a new book comes out with a new way of learning Blinding Flash it doesn't mean all former ways no longer exist.

If people want an instant switch, they can use the harsh new High Seas rules. If they're willing to put in the XP cost, they can still use the old nicer rules.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Again, the Psionics text in the Psionics section saying that chars that have not expressed their race's psionic potential can not later tap into that potential any more.

Which has been directly conflicted by other material, so it must be interpreted as only pertaining to rolling on this random table.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The PF2:HS rules are the Published Canon. Just because you do not like to admit it does not unmake them as Canon.

We're not saying they aren't canon, just not the ONLY canon.

Eli you are now commenting on comments that are commenting on your comments about canon rules and then derivatives from those canon rules.
~~
RUE Page 278 Where is says that there are PCC's in rifts but they are officially mislabeling them. And doing the same to OCCs in BTS.
~~
No it is not just my house rule that PCC's can not change their class. And we have gone over this over and over and you will not accept that in the canon rules PCC's can't change their class.

My explanations about the Whys and wherefore that come out of that PCC's can't changing their class...yes mine.
~~
What I said was that picking a class WITH psionics at char creation or if they are roll for and gotten means the char has psionics.
Which does mean that if the the player choses an OCC for their char and when psionics are rolled for and not gotten. Then that char can not get psionics later.
All of this explanation right now is an expansion of the One line in the PF2 MB Psionics section. i.e.: An explanation of the canon rule for those who are in denial that said canon rule exists.
~~
RUE Page 278 (same place that says PCC's are being mislabeled), PFMOM1 page 17, PF2 MB has Labeled it's OCC's and PCC's correctly in the class listings.
~~
Okay where it is said that Rifts is to use the PF2:HS changing class rules were published in one of the Official Q&A articles in the earlier rifters. No I don't know off hand which one. Go DIY.
~~
1) Nothing in the PF2:HS changing class text INCLUDES PCC's DUHHHHHHH!!!!! (commenting about the whys's) And since PCC's can't be changing there class would be the reason they were NOT included. Double DUHHHH. (Being truthfully blunt) You are the one doing the house ruling here in not taking in account about what is included with the OCC changing rules in the PF2:HS gamebook. I'm Saying EXACTLY WHAT IF SAYS.

2) Taking an exception to the rule does not break the rule, it proves it.
~~
Psionics section in the PF@MB like I said already.
~~
The Published Canon is the canon. What was posted was okay for it's time. *shrugs* But now it at most an optional rule like the stuff in the rifter.
~~
In Summery....
Having shown that PCC's cannot changing their class.
That other classes cannot change to a PCC, along with one exemption to the rule.
And that older chars have certain limitations when changing to a magic class.
I stated what is canon.
Argued with people who did not like what I was saying.
Separated (tried to) my comments about OP's PN's away from the argument with the people who did not like me stating what canon says.

The ones Highlighted in blue are the relevant ones in this summery.

Since I doubt you two will change your minds I will ignore any further comments to this topic.
zzz

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Eli you are now commenting on comments that are commenting on your comments about canon rules and then derivatives from those canon rules.

Yes its called 'discussion'

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~~
RUE Page 278 Where is says that there are PCC's in rifts but they are officially mislabeling them. And doing the same to OCCs in BTS.

Interesting take on that. So now the question is, what classes with psionics are PCCs and which are OCCs, do you happen to have any official lists?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~~
No it is not just my house rule that PCC's can not change their class. And we have gone over this over and over and you will not accept that in the canon rules PCC's can't change their class.

Probably because you haven't presented any evidence. You are still trying to say that text in specific P.C.C.s is proof of a general class rule. The rest of us say that the fact that its put in each specific class is proof its an exception.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Okay where it is said that Rifts is to use the PF2:HS changing class rules were published in one of the Official Q&A articles in the earlier rifters. No I don't know off hand which one. Go DIY.

Okay, so it can be safely ignored, since you don't have any evidence to support your stance, got it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:~~
1) Nothing in the PF2:HS changing class text INCLUDES PCC's DUHHHHHHH!!!!! (commenting about the whys's) And since PCC's can't be changing there class would be the reason they were NOT included. Double DUHHHH. (Being truthfully blunt) You are the one doing the house ruling here in not taking in account about what is included with the OCC changing rules in the PF2:HS gamebook. I'm Saying EXACTLY WHAT IF SAYS.

Which is a great house rule, but sadly again ITS NOT CANON. The CANON doesn't say that you can't leave the P.C.C. Psi-Nulifier, so....you can. Simple as that. The rules in PF2:HS don't allow you to class INTO a P.C.C. but they don't say ANYTHING about classing OUT of one. Your house rule that the specific restrictions on 5 PCCs is actually a universal rule isn't mentioned. Which is interesting in and of itself, since you would THINK that the rules for changing classes would be a good place to put a rule about changing classes, if it was truly universal that is.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In Summery....
Having shown that PCC's cannot changing their class.

No you have shown you don't allow PCCs to change class, there is a difference.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That other classes cannot change to a PCC, along with one exemption to the rule.

Not MUCH argument there, PCC's can't generally be trained into unless specifically noted.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I stated what is canon.

no you have stated what you want the rules to say, not what they actually do say. There is a difference.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Argued with people who did not like what I was saying.
Separated (tried to) my comments about OP's PN's away from the argument with the people who did not like me stating what canon says.

zzz

But your not stating canon, again your just stating what you want it to say.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:RUE Page 278 Where is says that there are PCC's in rifts but they are officially mislabeling them. And doing the same to OCCs in BTS.

Thanks for finding it. In reading this I am not agreeing with this interpretation though. Let's take a look at the top of the right column of page 278, which is a continuation of the section OCC or Occupational Character Class (seems to be presenting RCCs/PCCs as subsets of OCCs already to me...)



Nowhere does this say anything about 'officially mislabeling'. I concur with you that this DOES indeed say that there are PCCs in Rifts. But it does not, as you imply, state that it is 'mislabeling' to call them OCCs. In fact, it supports my assertion from the PF usage: that PCCs are certain OCCs with psychic abilities. Obviously not ALL of them (or CKs and Mystics and TWs would be PCCs) but those which are more predominantly psychic. This statement actually supports that PCCs are a form of OCC and can be referred to that way.

Let's look further down though, at Psionics or Psychic Abilities, which is also on the right column of page 278, but nearer to the bottom:



Funny... so they are PCCS (psionic character classes) and yet... they are called "psionic OCCs" too. Fancy that. Consistently interchangeable, just like in PF2nd. So thank you for finding me a page with TWO things that support my argument.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:it is not just my house rule that PCC's can not change their class. And we have gone over this over and over and you will not accept that in the canon rules PCC's can't change their class.

We accept that Psi-Mystics and Psychic Sensitive and Psi-Healers can't change their class. Their individual rules are not about all PCCS. To think this applies to a Dreamdancer or an Astral Lord or the Mystic China classes is your house ruling.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:if the the player choses an OCC for their char and when psionics are rolled for and not gotten. Then that char can not get psionics later. All of this explanation right now is an expansion of the One line in the PF2 MB Psionics section. i.e.: An explanation of the canon rule for those who are in denial that said canon rule exists.

You are misinterpreting the context of that section. It's talking about being unable to roll for random psionics later on. It can't be talking about all psionics. We know full well there are ways to gain psionics later on, such as making a witch pact, or drinking psi-cola, becoming a cyber-knight and getting the sword (and later, shield and ISP too), or getting a psi-implant.

We know this is not an absolute rule due to numerous examples of it not applying. So we must determine what context it does cover. I think it only refers to the random rolling. You seem to also think that it applies to restricting the learning psychic OCCs. Ultimately we're both just guessing.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:RUE Page 278 (same place that says PCC's are being mislabeled), PFMOM1 page 17, PF2 MB has Labeled it's OCC's and PCC's correctly in the class listings.

RUep278 never says 'mislabeled', I feel that word is inappropriate, per above explanation. HoMp17 saying "OCC, RCC or PCC" does not mean that PCCs are not OCCs. I can say "rectangles and squares". It's a bit odd, but it's doable.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:where it is said that Rifts is to use the PF2:HS changing class rules were published in one of the Official Q&A articles in the earlier rifters. No I don't know off hand which one. Go DIY.

This gives me a place to start, thank you. Luckily we have a useful forum Rifter glossary to aid here...(I even made a page listing all the canon stuff)

I do question how reliable these Q&A are though. Rifter 20 (published 2002) page 19 says Wampyrs remain SDC in Rifts, even though Between the Shadows (published 1998) page 142 already clarified that they and Guardians turn MDC.

So far as I can tell these are the ones that have appeared:

1r11p48combat
2r12p23magic
3r13p16fate, luck, curses, and healing
4r14p12skills
5r15p17vehicles
6r16p17combat
7r17p16misc
8r18p16mutants
9r19p21
10r20p16
11r22p14children
12r24p18yinsloth1
13r25p92yinsloth2

Rifter 20 also says it's the 10th so it seems to conform with this being a complete list up until that point. So I think there's 13, unless there were more recent ones published after 25 not included here (records aren't up to date).

I have these in my collection and flipped through and nothing jumped out at me. If anyone happens to know which of these early Rifters might say for Rifts to use the HighSeas rules over the official PRPG/PF2errata rules, would be interested in knowing.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Nothing in the PF2:HS changing class text INCLUDES PCC's DUHHHHHHH!!!!!

It doesn't include anything about Clergy either, what's the point? It's all OCCs, one being deific-dependent and the other having a prefix indicator of their category doesn't change this.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:since PCC's can't be changing there class would be the reason they were NOT included.

You don't need a reason to not be included, few examples are given in High Seas.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Double DUHHHH. (Being truthfully blunt) You are the one doing the house ruling here in not taking in account about what is included with the OCC changing rules in the PF2:HS gamebook. I'm Saying EXACTLY WHAT IF SAYS.

False, I take them into account as an additional means of changing OCCs, if you don't want to pay the experience points to change like you normally have to. I'd personally never do it though, too many long-term drawbacks, classic rules are still canon and better.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Taking an exception to the rule does not break the rule, it proves it.

That makes no sense.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Published Canon is the canon.

You make a reference to Rifter errata as 'published canon' for HighSeas rules being used in RUE, yet conveniently overlook that the Rifter FAQs have made reference to checking the Errata/Q&A section of the Palladium web site.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:What was posted was okay for it's time. *shrugs* But now it at most an optional rule like the stuff in the rifter.

If the site says it's canon, if the canon part of the rifter says it's canon, then it is most definitely canon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:older chars have certain limitations when changing to a magic class

Only those who take the OCC in Heart of Magic.

eliakon wrote:The rules in PF2:HS don't allow you to class INTO a P.C.C. but they don't say ANYTHING about classing OUT of one.

I would argue that being able to class into an OCC means being able to class into a PCC, since all PCCs are OCCs (but not all OCCs are PCCs).

Well, they could use up their ISP and THEN switch to magic, basically.

eliakon wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In Summery....
Having shown that PCC's cannot changing their class.

No you have shown you don't allow PCCs to change class, there is a difference.

Actually what you have just stated and stated before that, in not so many words,you do not accept the evidence for PCC's not being able to change their class. Part of that being that you do not accept that the when considering in ALL the published rules governing the changing class say, (which are in the PFRPG gamebooks) that that consideration says that PCC's can not.

What I see is you reading the published rules governing the changing of class in their own individual vacuums. Not accepting that they interact with each other.

No I do not expect to change your mind about these things. Because you do not accept the evidence that I presented.

The same canon text that support that the published changing class rules are not applicable to any PCC, is being claimed as supporting 'Other Interpretations" in other posts.

Since the Canon Q&A's in the Rifters have also been pushed aside in other posts because they are in the Rifters, 'The' only conclusion is that there is "No Canon Changing Class rules that cover the Rifts setting." Thus this Whole Discussion does not matter because There Are No Canon Changing Class Rules For Rifts. And as such Not only PCC's can not change their class in Rifts, OCC's can not change their class, nor can RCC's change their class.

The only evidence about PCCs not changing classes I've seen is the restriction for particular ones in PF, which is why we restrict ourselves to discussing the classes from other books. The class-changing rules have never forbidden any class from using them.

Wow....

Tor wrote:The only evidence about PCCs not changing classes I've seen is the restriction for particular ones in PF, which is why we restrict ourselves to discussing the classes from other books. The class-changing rules have never forbidden any class from using them.

The Published Changing class rules have NEVER covered the PCC classes. In Fact, as they are written they only COVER the job related classes. There is no mention of them covering psionic classes nor is there mention of them covering race related classes. So you statements fall flat on the nose.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:The only evidence about PCCs not changing classes I've seen is the restriction for particular ones in PF, which is why we restrict ourselves to discussing the classes from other books. The class-changing rules have never forbidden any class from using them.

The Published Changing class rules have NEVER covered the PCC classes. In Fact, as they are written they only COVER the job related classes. There is no mention of them covering psionic classes nor is there mention of them covering race related classes. So you statements fall flat on the nose.

Again false. The rules as written have two components that are NOT identical.
Component one is the class you are leaving. This is never addressed outside of specific classes that say you can not reclass OUT of them. There is room for one to contend that you have to be leaving an OCC, and that thus you can not be leaving a PCC or RCC. In which case the question is 'what is the CC type that you are' This is also confused by why it was necessary to say that the PCCs couldn't reclass specifically if NO PCC can.
Component two is the class you are taking. This is where there could be an argument that PCCs cant be classed INTO since they are not OCCs and thus not eligible. This of course would still allow a psychic OCC (such as a cyber-knight) to be selected as it is an OCC.


This then means you need to know what the CC category you are now, and you want to become. This will require knowing the edition of the game in question. In RMB Bursters and Psi-Nullifiers are RCC's, but in RUE Bursters are an OCC, which suggests that Psi-Nullifiers are also an OCC. If they are indeed an OCC, then they can be classed out of, and might even be able to be classed into.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:'The' only conclusion is that there is "No Canon Changing Class rules that cover the Rifts setting." Thus this Whole Discussion does not matter because There Are No Canon Changing Class Rules For Rifts. And as such Not only PCC's can not change their class in Rifts, OCC's can not change their class, nor can RCC's change their class.

Not quite, there are a few instances of OCC changing rules in Rifts that I can think of:
-RMBpg70 (RUE pg80) dealt with the Juicer OCC changing OCC (limited list, though it could be used in other cases generally)
-SB1o pg8-10 (Q&A section) talks about changing to a 'borg OCC from another.
-Bionic Sourcebook pg17 deals with the City Rat OCC "retiring" and picking up a new trade (OCC, limited list again).

What the above shows is that OCCs can change in Rifts, and they do follow a familar pattern that could be applied to other OCCs. Now I don't know if I would allow a Psi-Nullifer PCC to take a magic using OCC, but they could certainly switch to a 'borg OCC if they wanted too.

Use the Gift of Knowledge from pantheons. Look under the Norse Gods and the World Tree.

Or use any of the Magic powers from the Book of Hero's.

That's two ways of giving magic to a PCC. Should be a great quest to get either and it avoids the thornie issue of trying to multi class with a PCC.

Peace,

Dragon-Mage.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The Published Changing class rules

dat Uppercase

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:have NEVER covered the PCC classes. In Fact, as they are written they only COVER the job related classes.

They cover "OCCs".

I already provided numerous evidence that PCCs are a form of OCC.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no mention of them covering psionic classes nor is there mention of them covering race related classes. So you statements fall flat on the nose.

Explicit mention isn't required, all that matters is whether or not a class falls under OCCs.

Also, the Mind Mage OCC in PRPG could be multiple, which serves as evidence that psychic classes can indeed multi-class.

Of course, the Mind Mage PCC in PF (different abilities) can not.

Or you can just follow the logic that it allowed prefer Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition cutting room floor Dual O.C.C. (or third level (if magical or psychic)).

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:have NEVER covered the PCC classes. In Fact, as they are written they only COVER the job related classes.

They cover "OCCs".

I already provided numerous evidence that PCCs are a form of OCC.

And I've already informed you that since you didn't translate said classes into the PF2 labeling format that list PCC's as PCC's before using the PF2 changing class rules your assertions are flawed/incorrect/just plane wrong.

If you are talking about the class listing conventions laziness, then I acknowledge that you have pointed out that laziness in writing, even though it means nothing in this conversation.

Mouser13 wrote:Or you can just follow the logic that it allowed prefer Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition cutting room floor Dual O.C.C. (or third level (if magical or psychic)).

Which are not published and are defunct rules since the published rules came out. Which I mentioned before.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Mouser13 wrote:Or you can just follow the logic that it allowed prefer Palladium Fantasy® 2nd Edition cutting room floor Dual O.C.C. (or third level (if magical or psychic)).

Which are not published and are defunct rules since the published rules came out. Which I mentioned before.

Actually they ARE Published. And since they are both second edition, and do not conflict....
The Cutting Room rules explicitly allow something. The AotHS rules do not explicitly remove that permission....thus it is still allowed.

*edited to fix quote tags
Well put Eliakon!

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:you didn't translate said classes into the PF2 labeling format that list PCC's as PCC's before using the PF2 changing class rules

I'm not sure what you're arguing here drew. PF2 says PCCs are OCCs, so the rules apply to them.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:your assertions are .. plane wrong.

If this is wrong I don't want to be right.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you are talking about the class listing conventions laziness, then I acknowledge that you have pointed out that laziness in writing, even though it means nothing in this conversation.

Writing is part of RAW and means everything when you're trying to use writing to introduce a restriction that is not explicitly there.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Which are not published and are defunct rules since the published rules came out. Which I mentioned before.

Online publishing is publishing. Publishing is not limited to ink and paper. They are also not defunct. We now have 2 distinct sets of multi-classing rules, either of which are canon and can be used, depending on which a player opts. The new rules never declared the old ones unusable.

If it is canon, then it's published in a book, not posted. (As I have said before.)
Since there are some things were posted just a stop gap item to fill in till the published canon came out, they are ether defunct or optional. If PB really wanted to make them canon they certainly didn't make an effort into publishing them like they did with the canon rules.

And now we are going in circles. Since you do not like my assertions and try to refute them and I've refuted your assertions, I think we should stop. since to go on would be to just be restating stuff we have already said before.