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We saw dadelus and Prometheus in the 1st edition books but have not seen them in the 2nd edition as of yet. Any thoughts on when we might see them or what their stats might be?

basic stats for them are found with the stats of the SDF-1. you might have to flesh them out a tad.

sirkermittsg wrote:We saw dadelus and Prometheus in the 1st edition books but have not seen them in the 2nd edition as of yet. Any thoughts on when we might see them or what their stats might be?

Eh... as neither ship has any real role in the Robotech story beyond being one of the Macross's limbs, they're probably not going to bother with separate stats for 'em unless they get even more desperate for filler material than they already are.

You'd only really need stats for 'em separate if you were gonna run a Macross campaign, where they were just the first of their class. Really though, they don't have any offensive weapons to speak of, so it only really NEEDS MDC values and the defensive weapons can be copypasta'd from other articles.

sirkermittsg wrote:We saw Daedalus and Prometheus in the 1st edition books but have not seen them in the 2nd edition as of yet. Any thoughts on when we might see them or what their stats might be?

As mentioned the TMS SB does describe the basic crew & mecha complement of these vessels, and probably a good indication of their Main Body (though smaller locations likely would have to be derived from comparing 1E to 2E values). Barring new deck plans and new writeup, the 1E version are as good as any other at the moment.

No idea when they might appear. Given the appearance of "sister" ships in Ep3 already flying in space BEFORE the Fold (IINM one can see something similar to Dead. in the NG intro slide-show), it is possible (though I doubt it) they could appear in any resurrected Space Ship books, or within said book for the full SDF-1 writeup possibly. Those pre-fold ship examples (assuming they aren't treated as animation errors by HG) though have me wondering what role they might have played in UEDF Space Fleet activities in both the near and long term. Near term they would be like "light" ARMDs, but in the long term I could see them relocated for surface operations on extra-solar worlds for colonization (maybe even w/n the Solar System for fixed location bases).

Seto wrote:Eh... as neither ship has any real role in the Robotech story beyond being one of the Macross's limbs, they're probably not going to bother with separate stats for 'em unless they get even more desperate for filler material than they already are.

You'd only really need stats for 'em separate if you were gonna run a Macross campaign, where they were just the first of their class. Really though, they don't have any offensive weapons to speak of, so it only really NEEDS MDC values and the defensive weapons can be copypasta'd from other articles.

While the specific ships don't have much role in the story, they could address them in terms like the 1E did as a class of vessel since they aren't the only vessels in each class depicted (Ep3). I will grant the Ep3 depictions with the space fleet could be seen as sister class or sub-class, but it shows that the basic design was in more wide spread use. And Ep61 (NG#1) does have the slide show depicting what could be seen an evolution of the Deadelus class, leaving open the possibility for a Prometheus based design as well.

Given the stated survivor rate in the RPG (ie for 2E RPG canon/universe) it is possible sister vessels survived the RoD, or some incomplete (or completely new) ships where completed post RoD. Even outside the RPG the UEDF is known to have some naval assets post RoD (NG), but none of them are big ships (Carrier, Battleship, etc) the depicted examples are limited and a wider selection of ships might still have been implemented that include carriers for a variety of reasons so we might have derived vessels from Prom/Dead.-class (as Ep3/61 suggest).

ShadowLogan wrote:No idea when they might appear. Given the appearance of "sister" ships in Ep3 already flying in space BEFORE the Fold (IINM one can see something similar to Dead. in the NG intro slide-show), it is possible (though I doubt it) they could appear in any resurrected Space Ship books, or within said book for the full SDF-1 writeup possibly. [...]

's unlikely, IMO... we know Harmony Gold has developed a tendency to follow the OSM line for simplicity's sake in almost call circumstances, and that is an animation error in the original.

ShadowLogan wrote:While the specific ships don't have much role in the story, they could address them in terms like the 1E did as a class of vessel since they aren't the only vessels in each class depicted (Ep3).

As previously noted, Harmony Gold will likely follow Studio Nue's lead and dismiss those as an error in the animation and will continue to treat the Daedalus and Prometheus as the sole examples of their class for Robotech... a series that seems to have something of a thing for only-ship-of-her-class.


Mind you, only one Macross source that I'm aware of discusses plans the UN Army and Navy had for subsequent Daedalus and Prometheus-class ships... and its canonicity is dubious, though it too indicates that the Daedalus and Prometheus were the sole ships of their class at the time the first space war broke out... and neither ship lasted more than three years. (Admittedly, the main timeline is kinder to 'em by far... in the DYRLverse, the Prometheus was one-shotted in the opening orbital bombardment and sank, only for Hikaru and Misa to find the wreckage after their return to Earth.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mind you, only one Macross source that I'm aware of discusses plans the UN Army and Navy had for subsequent Daedalus and Prometheus-class ships... and its canonicity is dubious, though it too indicates that the Daedalus and Prometheus were the sole ships of their class at the time the first space war broke out... and neither ship lasted more than three years. (Admittedly, the main timeline is kinder to 'em by far... in the DYRLverse, the Prometheus was one-shotted in the opening orbital bombardment and sank, only for Hikaru and Misa to find the wreckage after their return to Earth.

While I will not argue the fact that HG will not go with this line of thinking. I do think it would be a good thing to have if you want to have a fleshed out the era.
The Masters Saga really did not take place in or around the Oceans. And for the Generation saga we only see them at one naval base. But as for a conversation plot devise, Scott and Lancer are from space, and lunk where ever he from we all low ranking people. So why would they know anything about an outdated military program?

personally I would just suggest using the 1st edition book for their stats if you want to use them.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:The Masters Saga really did not take place in or around the Oceans. And for the Generation saga we only see them at one naval base.

With some pretty primitive boats... which suggests that naval power was not something that was a high priority for the defense forces.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:personally I would just suggest using the 1st edition book for their stats if you want to use them.

More or less everything you need to use 'em separately except speeds is right there in the Macross saga (2nd Ed.) book.

Seto wrote:'s unlikely, IMO... we know Harmony Gold has developed a tendency to follow the OSM line for simplicity's sake in almost call circumstances, and that is an animation error in the original.

Maybe, but AEs do have some history of becoming reality in RT. Plus they can use the design as pre-cursors to the NG still shot since the basic "naval" lines get resurrected later (by NG), though only for that one ship type. While HG likely will take the easy route out and copy Macross, they do have the option of doing something different.

Seto wrote:With some pretty primitive boats... which suggests that naval power was not something that was a high priority for the defense forces.

I don't know if I'd call them primitive. Wet Naval power doesn't appear to be something that was a high priority to be depicted, but it would make sense to have additional types of wet navy vessels than was depicted in NG. Some ship types are not really optimized for space strikes, but would find roles more tasked toward conventional naval roles. Carriers and submarines though could still play a role in the defense force as they provide mobile bases to launch strikes from.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:The Masters Saga really did not take place in or around the Oceans. And for the Generation saga we only see them at one naval base.

With some pretty primitive boats... which suggests that naval power was not something that was a high priority for the defense forces.

Except that it is stated in the opening dialogue that the Invid destroyed the human military. If the large vessels were at any base, it is a good bet they we annihilated in the opening attack. And if there were any Submersible vessels hiding its a good bet they are still hiding.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:personally I would just suggest using the 1st edition book for their stats if you want to use them.

More or less everything you need to use 'em separately except speeds is right there in the Macross saga (2nd Ed.) book.

And the floor plans.

ShadowLogan wrote:Maybe, but AEs do have some history of becoming reality in RT.

Very rarely... and usually only when it serves to provide artificial consistency between the sagas (such as the VF-1's "nose lasers") or is being used to shake down the Macross IP for a few bucks (the VF-1R). Can't see it happening here.

ShadowLogan wrote:While HG likely will take the easy route out and copy Macross, they do have the option of doing something different.

It's an option they've persistently refused to explore... so I wouldn't hold my breath, especially since the only boats we see in later sagas are pretty low-tech PT boats.

Seto wrote:Very rarely... and usually only when it serves to provide artificial consistency between the sagas (such as the VF-1's "nose lasers") or is being used to shake down the Macross IP for a few bucks (the VF-1R). Can't see it happening here.

I can see it happening as a means of providing artificial consistency between the sagas given the still shot in Ep61 has a ship that could clearly be derived from the Deadelus.

Seto wrote:It's an option they've persistently refused to explore... so I wouldn't hold my breath, especially since the only boats we see in later sagas are pretty low-tech PT boats.

I wouldn't hold my breath at any rate given the rate HG develops new material or addresses issues. Still given Ep61 they might choose to explore it.

While the NG boats are smaller PT boats, that does not rule out larger ships being around between TMS and NG with a role to play though in the overall defense and security framework. We are talking about a global power base, so they are going to need some ability to project power from the sea.

ShadowLogan wrote:We are talking about a global power base, so they are going to need some ability to project power from the sea.

Perhaps in the RPG... which is a chronic exaggerator when it comes to the state of affairs on Earth in the years after the first war. The RPG invents more internal strife and a much larger surviving population, for the sake of gameplay variety. In canon, it's different... there's a much smaller surviving population holed up in just a few cities, with no surface-side rival powers after the Zentradi rebels are killed off. Combine that with the presence of army bases and airfields in or near the few remaining cities and the long range flight capabilities pretty much every fighter has, and there's no REASON to have a navy because there's nothing to defend against on the high seas and no reason to place a force so far away from the few areas it's meant to defend.

I used the uRRG for this and had them build or have multiples of the ship class deployed and in service at some point by the RDF and later the ASC

As for stats.......since I rewrote everything else statwise in the RPG I redid those too.

Seto wrote:Perhaps in the RPG... which is a chronic exaggerator when it comes to the state of affairs on Earth in the years after the first war. The RPG invents more internal strife and a much larger surviving population, for the sake of gameplay variety. In canon, it's different... there's a much smaller surviving population holed up in just a few cities, with no surface-side rival powers after the Zentradi rebels are killed off. Combine that with the presence of army bases and airfields in or near the few remaining cities and the long range flight capabilities pretty much every fighter has, and there's no REASON to have a navy because there's nothing to defend against on the high seas and no reason to place a force so far away from the few areas it's meant to defend.

Which is where (RPG) I was placing this for the most part for having "additional" ships in class. Within the series they are more likely to have to go back to the drawing board for a new design post R.o.D, but even here humanity has spread out to at minimum two continents (NA & SA).

In either case though, long range flight capabilities are present today, but we still have naval surface ships (and use it to transport the bulk of materials across the ocean). Given the existance of working naval vessels post R.o.D (found in ~2042, likely an ASC facility) points to there being some activity on the seas that require a wet navy (or coast guard) to defend something prior to the Invid Invasion, but after the R.o.D (~17year period, unless the facility somehow managed to escape the R.o.D and is older).

While the bulk of naval ship types are likely to have limited use in defending Earth from space borne threats, the aircraft carrier and submarine are likely to still remain. Both essentially acting as mobile facilities for their respective missions. If the aircraft carrier is in use, it likely will need support ships to. Cruiser types (Frigate, Destroyer, Battleship, etc) likely can also be equipped with salvaged Zentreadi beam cannons (or reproductions) for surface to orbit targeting, and depending on how far inland space borne targets land they could use conventional cannons to shell the alien positions.

I will concede to the fact with a space fleet with fighters being able to be deployed world wide within such a short time I could see why they did not have such a large fleet. However we know from the Armies of the Southern Cross has a Navy Force. SO we can safely assume there are gonna be some ships.

ShadowLogan wrote:Which is where (RPG) I was placing this for the most part for having "additional" ships in class.

Remember, one of the big "bullet points" for the current edition of the RPG was for it to follow the show's canon more closely. So, while it might make sense, it's still unlikely to happen.

ShadowLogan wrote:Within the series they are more likely to have to go back to the drawing board for a new design post R.o.D, but even here humanity has spread out to at minimum two continents (NA & SA).

But even then, do they really NEED naval force projection capabilities on a planet where there are only a couple cities?

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I will concede to the fact with a space fleet with fighters being able to be deployed world wide within such a short time I could see why they did not have such a large fleet. However we know from the Armies of the Southern Cross has a Navy Force. SO we can safely assume there are gonna be some ships.

Well, that depends on whose interpretation of that naval force you're actually talking about. The way it gets talked about in the series, all those various specialist units are part of the Army, which is consistent with the OSM identifying it as just one of a number of specialist squads maintained by the Tactics Corps (regular army).

Still says Naval.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Still says Naval.

Sure does, but the org chart still says it's a specialist team under the regular army.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Still says Naval.

Sure does, but the org chart still says it's a specialist team under the regular army.

So, in world war two the Air force was part of the army. there is still a need for a navy in the masters even if its runs with specialist units.

Seto wrote:Remember, one of the big "bullet points" for the current edition of the RPG was for it to follow the show's canon more closely. So, while it might make sense, it's still unlikely to happen.

But they have the ability to do things for the RPG setting, otherwise we wouldn't have things like the IMUs (none of which are in the show), some of the ASC mecha (aren't technically in the show itself), the Invid off-shoot (in Genesis Pit book), etc. In this case the highest canon source (the show) has nothing to say on the actual matter, giving the RPG writers some freedom.

Seto wrote:But even then, do they really NEED naval force projection capabilities on a planet where there are only a couple cities?

They most certainly do. We can clearly see that in NG by the ships the team recovers that there WAS A NEED FOR SOME LEVEL naval force capabilities. I don't doubt that some ship types might not be emphasized or continue to exist in the age (2014-2029), but there are some types that are either shown to exist (NG) or a rationale case can be made for their continued use within the force structure. The (internal) Whys of the Navy capacity and its full extent aren't known and open to pure speculation, but there has to be some (internal) reason for those ships and capacity to be present.

ShadowLogan wrote:But they have the ability to do things for the RPG setting, otherwise we wouldn't have things like the IMUs (none of which are in the show), some of the ASC mecha (aren't technically in the show itself), the Invid off-shoot (in Genesis Pit book), etc. In this case the highest canon source (the show) has nothing to say on the actual matter, giving the RPG writers some freedom.

Eh... yeah, but those few deviations are mostly just attempts to pad out books that would otherwise be completely unnecessary or, in a few cases, valiant attempts to add interest to a book for a part of the story most fans prefer to ignore.

ShadowLogan wrote:They most certainly do. We can clearly see that in NG by the ships the team recovers that there WAS A NEED FOR SOME LEVEL naval force capabilities.

We don't even know that those boats actually belonged to a proper military... they could just as easily be leftover PT boats from the pre-1st war defense forces (since they don't aesthetically fit with any ASC gear), or something used by the destroyed nearby city for civil defense independent of the military.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:They most certainly do. We can clearly see that in NG by the ships the team recovers that there WAS A NEED FOR SOME LEVEL naval force capabilities.

We don't even know that those boats actually belonged to a proper military... they could just as easily be leftover PT boats from the pre-1st war defense forces (since they don't aesthetically fit with any ASC gear), or something used by the destroyed nearby city for civil defense independent of the military.

Well A course it does not match any of the ASC gear, The new Gen is a different series, and we all no the pros and cons of such doing. this is one of those cons.

Seto wrote:Eh... yeah, but those few deviations are mostly just attempts to pad out books that would otherwise be completely unnecessary or, in a few cases, valiant attempts to add interest to a book for a part of the story most fans prefer to ignore.

And they can't use "sister" vessels of the Dead. and Prom. to pad the books why exactly? And said designs can be used in other parts though, its silly to think that because item A is listed in SB during period X the material can only be used during Period X in all cases.

Seto wrote:We don't even know that those boats actually belonged to a proper military... they could just as easily be leftover PT boats from the pre-1st war defense forces (since they don't aesthetically fit with any ASC gear), or something used by the destroyed nearby city for civil defense independent of the military.

True, we don't know who the ships actually belong to which is an issue. However it is extremly unlikely that they are pre-RoD ships. Also if the local civil defense has a need for naval ship power in some form, than the UEDF-ASC then should also too.

And when exactly do we see examples of ASC (wet) naval ships in the series, the show (in that arc) focuses on the ground/air/space forces exclusively. Off hand I don't recall ever seeing a suit of Sea Squad armor, but there are examples of some of the other armor types. Asthetically the Sea Squad body armor and personal weapons (as depicted outside the series) do follow the same aesthetics as the other branches, but beyond that we have no real information from the series on what their service specific ships looks like.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Well A course it does not match any of the ASC gear, The new Gen is a different series, and we all no the pros and cons of such doing. this is one of those cons.

Exactly... but since it doesn't look like it would work aesthetically with the ASC's established "Naval" gear, that'd be justification enough to say "Nope, this belonged to someone else" who was a better fit for it, like the "UEDF".

ShadowLogan wrote:And they can't use "sister" vessels of the Dead. and Prom. to pad the books why exactly?

They're not spaceships, so they wouldn't fit with the UEEF Marines book(s), and the spaceships book is dead so there's no danger of them being covered again even in their capacity as parts of the Macross.

ShadowLogan wrote:And said designs can be used in other parts though, its silly to think that because item A is listed in SB during period X the material can only be used during Period X in all cases.

And yet, the current edition of the RPG comes up with all manner of interesting reasons to explain away precisely that issue.

Am I the only one who seems to think the sea squad was meant to be more of a regional coast guard at best than an actual navy?

Now yes in "my" robotech they operate multiple Prometheus and Daedalus class vessels but I still do not have much of a wet navy beyond that since they are more for force projection than anything else. Also the vast majority of wet naval assets and threats were likely destroyed by the RoD so they is little need if a true wet navy at all beyond the aforementioned force projection.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:Well A course it does not match any of the ASC gear, The new Gen is a different series, and we all no the pros and cons of such doing. this is one of those cons.

Exactly... but since it doesn't look like it would work aesthetically with the ASC's established "Naval" gear, that'd be justification enough to say "Nope, this belonged to someone else" who was a better fit for it, like the "UEDF".

wow that a great arguement point. We have no idea of what is beyond the limited scope of the series. I am sure if the Naval squads exists they would have small patrol boats. And if you are burning on limited funds and resources you would likely build with what you already know.

And why not have a submersible Carrier or troop transport or two roaming the high seas. just in case you need a rabid response team on the other side of the globe, especially if you do not have any civilized cities and or established military bases. And if they were submersible they could hide and move as needed.

jayma wrote:Am I the only one who seems to think the sea squad was meant to be more of a regional coast guard at best than an actual navy?

Now yes in "my" robotech they operate multiple Prometheus and Daedalus class vessels but I still do not have much of a wet navy beyond that since they are more for force projection than anything else. Also the vast majority of wet naval assets and threats were likely destroyed by the RoD so they is little need if a true wet navy at all beyond the aforementioned force projection.

Actually i believe its more then likely they were more like coast guards. However I have no doubt they would make use of the technology they have at hand. I also like the Submersible as mobile bases for rapid response. I liked in the old book that they had mention a underwater base being used by the sea squad branch.

Lt Gargoyle wrote::lol: wow that a great arguement point.

Glad you liked it.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:We have no idea of what is beyond the limited scope of the series.

Because there ISN'T anything beyond the limited scope of the series... they never thought that far ahead and every time they've tried to go past it, they look back at what they've wrought and said "Man, that is TERRIBLE. Why did we even do this?"

Besides, if they're following the OSM like they love to do, the Navy Division is just a specialist aquatic infantry division... they don't possess any ships. Those belong to a completely different, entirely separate branch of the military, ironically. (Even the TASC doesn't actually have any ships, which makes for some real head-scratching moments when you think about it.)

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I am sure if the Naval squads exists they would have small patrol boats. And if you are burning on limited funds and resources you would likely build with what you already know.

Unless you have absolutely no reason to be out on the water in the first place... which was, frankly, true for both the original and RT versions. Ten to one says the special aquatic squads were dumping grounds for troopers like Jeanne who needed to have an "accident" disarming a mine during exercises.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:And why not have a submersible Carrier or troop transport or two roaming the high seas. just in case you need a rabid response team on the other side of the globe, [...]

Yeah, because the enemy might take away their millions of square kilometers of trackless, uninhabited, radioactive wasteland!

Operator: Commander Leonard! The enemy has landed in the vast, radioactive desert on the far side of the planet where there's absolutely nobody and nothing to threaten or steal for thousands of kilometers in every direction!

Leonard: ... and may they choke on it. What's for lunch?

Lt Gargoyle wrote:especially if you do not have any civilized cities and or established military bases. And if they were submersible they could hide and move as needed.

This is kind of a fun misconception... the Daedalus and Prometheus could not fully submerge. In practice, they could only submerge the deck of the ship, but the bridge tower had to remain above water for the radar and other vital systems to operate.

(There are some damned beautiful shots of this in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie for the Prometheus and Macross the First Volume 5 for the Daedalus.)

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I liked in the old book that they had mention a underwater base being used by the sea squad branch.

To put the cherry on that sundae of awfulness... now they're SeaQuest!

Seto wrote:They're not spaceships, so they wouldn't fit with the UEEF Marines book(s), and the spaceships book is dead so there's no danger of them being covered again even in their capacity as parts of the Macross.

There is no place to fit them in the current plan of books, but that doesn't mean that future books can't work them in some how.

Seto wrote:Besides, if they're following the OSM like they love to do, the Navy Division is just a specialist aquatic infantry division... they don't possess any ships.

To be fair though, the Sea Squad in the OSM was on another planet not Earth so the colonists would be starting from scratch as far as ship building infrastructure. With RT we know some level of naval ship building may exist due to NG arc.

The Dead. and Prom. could also have been salvaged (and restored) from the SDF-1 and returned to duty after the destruction of the SDF-1 since both ships appear to be relatively intact (though they will need to repairs and such).

Seto wrote:Unless you have absolutely no reason to be out on the water in the first place... which was, frankly, true for both the original and RT versions.

Since ~3/4 of the surface is covered by water, and if you wanted to protect the entire planet from alien incursion you would need some naval power to adequatly project a defense since the planet is ringed by space stations-forts. Zentraedi ships could land and submerge in the ocean, which would influence ASC thinking about how to prepare for the next possible alien invasion.

While there are tracts of wasteland and other dead zones, I'm not sure if the UEG would want to seede control over a huge supply of water (granted it would have to be desalinated).

jaymaz wrote:Am I the only one who seems to think the sea squad was meant to be more of a regional coast guard at best than an actual navy?

I agree that the bulk of their duties/focus will be coast guard like, but I also see limited duties/focus of an actual navy. We also have to remember there are different types of navy (Blue, Green, Brown)

For example, we know part of Earth's defense by 2029 included surface missile bases capable of targeting orbiting craft, so it is not unreasonable to speculate that submersible craft also exist for the role (think modern concept of nuclear triad). That would hardly be what one would expect for a coast guard to be responsible for.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Dead. and Prom. could also have been salvaged (and restored) from the SDF-1 and returned to duty after the destruction of the SDF-1 since both ships appear to be relatively intact (though they will need to repairs and such).

Since Tommy has established that the UEDF buried the entire Macross AND Khyron's ship, that seems unlikely.

ShadowLogan wrote:Since ~3/4 of the surface is covered by water, and if you wanted to protect the entire planet from alien incursion you would need some naval power to adequatly project a defense since the planet is ringed by space stations-forts.

Except that there's nothing out there to protect, and nothing WORTH protecting.

ShadowLogan wrote:While there are tracts of wasteland and other dead zones, I'm not sure if the UEG would want to seede control over a huge supply of water (granted it would have to be desalinated).

Or undergo other treatment, since radiation is identified as a problem.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Since ~3/4 of the surface is covered by water, and if you wanted to protect the entire planet from alien incursion you would need some naval power to adequatly project a defense since the planet is ringed by space stations-forts.

Except that there's nothing out there to protect, and nothing WORTH protecting.

there is a world to protect; oil, metal, gems, and many other resources you are gonna need for rebuilding a military war machine.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:While there are tracts of wasteland and other dead zones, I'm not sure if the UEG would want to seede control over a huge supply of water (granted it would have to be desalinated).

Or undergo other treatment, since radiation is identified as a problem.

Actually the earth can clean a lot of the mess up on its own, the Chernobyl disaster has shown this, watch Life after people to get some good images of the life that has reclaimed that disaster area, especially since human are not allowed there. And the 20 years since the RoD we could begin to see the earth do much the same. So yes protecting the resources for several reason is important. First we have no idea what the enemy is capable of withstanding. So letting them take even an inch of the planet so they can build strike bases is a horrible plan. Second we know that the spacecraft can maneuver in the oceans. Why give them that uncontested. I see the need to continue such a defense especially if there is limited safe zones. You give your enemies to much Seto. Leonard was not Stupid and he sure as hell would not surrender any part of the earth to the aliens.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:there is a world to protect; oil, [...]

... that no faction has a use for...

Lt Gargoyle wrote:metal, [...]

Where super-alloys are involved, is this even necessary? Also, with a bored space fleet, isn't it simply a lot easier to mine asteroids?

Lt Gargoyle wrote:gems, [...]

Which are important to who? There's no strategic value attached to gemstones, especially on a world where impactite-type materials are the most common terrain feature.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:and many other resources you are gonna need for rebuilding a military war machine.

Unless you conveniently have a massive space factory the size of a small moon that can and has supplied armies hundreds of thousands of times the size of yours... and the Earth Forces in RT canonically have now gone to imitating Macross in that they have more than one.

(Though probably nowhere near the 22+ known to be in human hands in Macross.)

Lt Gargoyle wrote:the earth can clean a lot of the mess up on its own,

That depends on the type, severity, and geographical extent of the contamination. Chernobyl was a box of party snaps compared to the mass extinction event devastation of the Zentradi's bombardment.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I see the need to continue such a defense especially if there is limited safe zones.

That's what orbital defenses are for...

Lt Gargoyle wrote:You give your enemies to much Seto. Leonard was not Stupid and he sure as hell would not surrender any part of the earth to the aliens.

Er... actually, as canon would have it Leonard was in possession of the idiot ball on a near-permanent basis after his stint as a mass-murdering spy and traitor directly responsible for destroying a significant part of Earth's defenses including the second Grand Cannon. He was also a xenophobic dick who would rather pass on a chance for peace and get his forces annihilated than be reasonable... so yeah, Leonard was pretty darn stupid, though the ASC was, more or less, depicted as the dregs who didn't make the cut for the Expeditionary Force.

Seto wrote:That's what orbital defenses are for...

Which Earth really doesn't have any fixed in orbit. They've got SSL somewhere in the Solar System, plus a few Moon Bases (Luna, ALUCE are named) and some unmanned satellites. Then you get to the surface installations with a big gap in coverage between the two. Sure there are fleets out there to call up on, but those aren't always in position to respond as rapidly to threats (recall it took months for Carpenter to return from the original mayday IIRC).

Seto wrote:Er... actually, as canon would have it Leonard was in possession of the idiot ball on a near-permanent basis after his stint as a mass-murdering spy and traitor directly responsible for destroying a significant part of Earth's defenses including the second Grand Cannon. He was also a xenophobic dick who would rather pass on a chance for peace and get his forces annihilated than be reasonable... so yeah, Leonard was pretty darn stupid, though the ASC was, more or less, depicted as the dregs who didn't make the cut for the Expeditionary Force.

I don't dispute that Leonard has the idiot ball, but I do have to agree with Lt. Garg., Leonard wouldn't stand for alien occupation of Earth Territory.

Seto wrote:Since Tommy has established that the UEDF buried the entire Macross AND Khyron's ship, that seems unlikely.

Its not like Tommy hasn't rectoned things before. Still there might be some wiggle room in the matter, granted both ships likely would need extensive restoration.

Seto wrote:Except that there's nothing out there to protect, and nothing WORTH protecting.

This a two pronged answer
1. There is plenty out there worth protecting in terms of resources. As mentioned, before Water. You also have raw materials for industry, which includes metals and petroleum, even gems, chemicals not covered here (like Salt). A scientific case might even be made for some disciplines (astronomy and archeology come readily to mind, probably more). Land for agriculture.

While there can be super alloys in RT, the question is what those alloys are made of and the raw materials necessary to make them. It is also possible not everything is using super-alloys. So yes it is possible they would still have a need for those conventional materials in industry.

Petroleum (Oil) isn't just used as a fuel source it is also used in other roles (plastics, lubricants, etc). So again we see a possible need for them outside of as an energy source.

Gems. I'm not real up on their industrial uses beyond cutting, but again they do have their roles in industry. So there will be a need. Then you have the people with pre-RoD thinking of them as still valuable (creating a demand for them).

While asteroids can be used as a source of raw materials, you first have to find said asteroids, and then either move them or ship "mined" material. It is also possible to use the Moon as an industrial resource. Earth will also want to develop some industrial capacity so it is not dependent on its off world assets. One also has to consider that Earth industry will also have to recover to some extent to establish off-world industry.

Some of the land is probably also capable of supporting agriculture (Rick did find flowers growing outside planned recover zones, so clearly the land is capable of supporting plants). And as the Show indicates the Amazon area in SA was quick to recover, so other areas on the planet not visited may also have had a similar recovery (we know NA and SA have by events in NG, and TRM).

2. Territorial Integrity. The reality is that if the UEG claims the entire planet as its territory, then in all likely hood will not stand for any unauthorized incursions into their territory. No nation would if it can do anything about it, even if it is out in the boon docks so to speak in regard to apparently worthless land.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:there is a world to protect; oil, [...]

... that no faction has a use for...

We see military vehicle and cars after the SDF-1 Lands being used by general population. Even if the civilians were using electric cars the military would still likely being using Oil. beside oil is in more then just gas.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:metal, [...]

Where super-alloys are involved, is this even necessary? Also, with a bored space fleet, isn't it simply a lot easier to mine asteroids?

Iron is still gonna be needed. The space fleet is for defense and prepping for Glovals Colony project.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:gems, [...]

Which are important to who? There's no strategic value attached to gemstones, especially on a world where impactite-type materials are the most common terrain feature.

Diamond make for the best cutting tools out there. We have a diamond metal cutter where i Worked in SF for cutting hard metals. So there is a need.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:and many other resources you are gonna need for rebuilding a military war machine.

Unless you conveniently have a massive space factory the size of a small moon that can and has supplied armies hundreds of thousands of times the size of yours... and the Earth Forces in RT canonically have now gone to imitating Macross in that they have more than one.

(Though probably nowhere near the 22+ known to be in human hands in Macross.)

If my memory is correct, the Space factory was depleted on many levels and the thing was broken. And above all else the is not the source material, its Robotech.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:the earth can clean a lot of the mess up on its own,

That depends on the type, severity, and geographical extent of the contamination. Chernobyl was a box of party snaps compared to the mass extinction event devastation of the Zentradi's bombardment.

Sorry cannot remember which episode, but at some point Rick hunter is flying about outside the reconstruction zone and find a patch of earth growing new life. I imagine the rest of the world has life kicking in. And if flowers are growing it means the bee's survived in spots. which leads to other life having an equal chance.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Lt Gargoyle wrote:I see the need to continue such a defense especially if there is limited safe zones.

That's what orbital defenses are for...

those can be breached.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:Since ~3/4 of the surface is covered by water, and if you wanted to protect the entire planet from alien incursion you would need some naval power to adequatly project a defense since the planet is ringed by space stations-forts.

Except that there's nothing out there to protect, and nothing WORTH protecting..

I'll remember that, Seto, you dry-biased land-shambling airsucker, when I'm looking to settle my gravid podlings in your fecund oceans before we come ashore to eat you(or, if I'm really feeling nasty, looking to wreck your planetary ecosystem).

And defense in depth; literally. If something gets by the vaunted orbital defenses, having interceptors based from ships can mobilize and reach the target area faster than land-based aircraft. And having specialist units able to go after submarine targets is always a plus.

Lt Gargoyle wrote:those can be breached.

Well, yeah... but there's nothing to defend on 99% of the planet anyway, and it's much faster to have a starship deploy fighters orbit-to-surface wherever they're needed than to try and sail a ship around to a potential landing site (which, as fast as these ships can go, is hard to predict). If starships can operate on the ocean anyway, why have a dedicated navy in an era where space is usually the battlefield?

ShadowLogan wrote:Which Earth really doesn't have any fixed in orbit.

Apart from that big fleet of theirs, eh?

Still, nobody (with a fact-based argument) ever credited Leonard and the ASC with competence in the field of planetary defense. Presumably that big fleet we see them deploying was on holiday when they were being invaded by the Robotech Masters.

ShadowLogan wrote:They've got SSL somewhere in the Solar System, plus a few Moon Bases (Luna, ALUCE are named) and some unmanned satellites.

The whereabouts of the factory satellite(s) we see in Earth orbit mere years earlier are a bit of a sticky widget.

ShadowLogan wrote:Then you get to the surface installations with a big gap in coverage between the two.

Well, whaddya expect when you've only got a couple thousand troops to work with?

ShadowLogan wrote:I don't dispute that Leonard has the idiot ball, but I do have to agree with Lt. Garg., Leonard wouldn't stand for alien occupation of Earth Territory.

Yeah, he'd blindly pitch his few, blindingly incompetent troops into a meat grinder to satisfy his bigotry.

ShadowLogan wrote:Its not like Tommy hasn't rectoned things before. Still there might be some wiggle room in the matter, granted both ships likely would need extensive restoration.

For that matter, in the Robotech version, the Daedalus arm was destroyed...

ShadowLogan wrote:1. There is plenty out there worth protecting in terms of resources. As mentioned, before Water. You also have raw materials for industry, which includes metals and petroleum, even gems, chemicals not covered here (like Salt). A scientific case might even be made for some disciplines (astronomy and archeology come readily to mind, probably more). Land for agriculture.

Considering what we're shown of Earth, it doesn't look like they're actually doing anything agriculturally in the great outdoors (and considering the radiation was apparently severe enough to necessitate building a dome over some of the few cities, there may be a VERY good reason for that), they can get everything in terms of resources they need from mining operations in space, which is not-coincidentally where all their major factories are...

ShadowLogan wrote:While asteroids can be used as a source of raw materials, you first have to find said asteroids, and then either move them or ship "mined" material.

How very convenient, then, that solar system has an awful lot of asteroids in it.

ShadowLogan wrote:It is also possible to use the Moon as an industrial resource.

And we know they did this, because we're explicitly told that's what the moon bases were before they were militarized.

ShadowLogan wrote:Earth will also want to develop some industrial capacity so it is not dependent on its off world assets.

And yet, that's the opposite of what we see...

ShadowLogan wrote:2. Territorial Integrity. The reality is that if the UEG claims the entire planet as its territory, then in all likely hood will not stand for any unauthorized incursions into their territory. No nation would if it can do anything about it, even if it is out in the boon docks so to speak in regard to apparently worthless land.

Assuming, of course, that a post-national government actually cares about vast tracts of useless and utterly uncontested land... because no freaking alien race gives a damn about Earth's land.

well I know in "my" Robotech, not to be confused ACTUAL Robotech, I have 17 Prometheus and Daedalus carriers in service along with 80+ attack subs and about 300 lighter warfare vessels (mine layers etc). That's about it. Mostly for force projection, ocean patrol for Zentreadi and deployment than for actual naval warfare

Seto wrote:and it's much faster to have a starship deploy fighters orbit-to-surface wherever they're needed than to try and sail a ship around to a potential landing site (which, as fast as these ships can go, is hard to predict). If starships can operate on the ocean anyway, why have a dedicated navy in an era where space is usually the battlefield?

Its not practical for Earth to use a starship to act as a wet navy surface ship. You are wasting capabilities that way. Even if you go with a non-starship class space vessel, you still have to now engineer in additional features. Those wet navy surface ships are also capable of launching fighters just as well as any surface base or ship. Actually, assuming they all use the same type of fighter (for simplicity), then it makes sense to have those ships deployed as it will cut down on the travel time to respond to any incursion. It will also give damaged fighters from those far away locations a potentially closer landing zone than to try to retreat all the way back (or if the space vessel was destroyed because it was outclassed).

Launching a force to go into space will get you a force anywhere on the planet in about an hour and half at best from a central location. To minimize the travel time though you are going to want to have more than one central location, which means a fleet of wet navy carriers is essential for proper dispersement coverage. This applies to launching manned ships/fighters as well as unmanned missiles.

Seto wrote:Apart from that big fleet of theirs, eh?

Still, nobody (with a fact-based argument) ever credited Leonard and the ASC with competence in the field of planetary defense. Presumably that big fleet we see them deploying was on holiday when they were being invaded by the Robotech Masters.

That big fleet of theirs though isn't on station though, they are out on patrol elsewhere in the solar system or even farther out. Plus orbital mechanics means a ship/fleet can bypass the Moon depending on where the Moon is in its orbit. Clearly Earth needs a ring closer to the planet itself, and it doesn't have one.

Those big fleets we see the ASC deploy in the later arc may be new builds or ships that they pulled out of mothballs by all indications. Because the fleet(s) they assemble for "Danger Zone" are more like shuttles and fighter escort, and that is pretty much what we see in "Southern Cross" and "Volunteers" being present at the base.

Seto wrote:The whereabouts of the factory satellite(s) we see in Earth orbit mere years earlier are a bit of a sticky widget.

You do recall that the one RFS that was in Earth orbit by the end of TMS saga may be down permanently per dialogue. It was nothing more than a big way station by that point and all indications. Also by 2029 said facility (along w/the Sentinels OVA facility) is no where to be seen, so either it was moved, dismantled since it is no where in the footage for TRM or NG saga, or became SSL since it is not mentioned again as a possible destination for fleeing ASC ships or even by the Masters.

Seto wrote:Well, whaddya expect when you've only got a couple thousand troops to work with?

They certainly had more than a couple thousand troops to work with.

The ASC deployed at least one Tokugawa-class ship in the series, it was colored similar to the Tri-Star AND was after Carpenter's ship (which was a brownish) self destructed int the side of a cityship. According to the RT.com inforpedia crewman of 2600crew +3900pilots/troops (=6500 people). The Tristar has 400 crew w/700 in the airgroup (1,100 total), I'm not sure about the more common ships. So between two vessels they deployed 7600 troops late in the war between two ships, never mind that they had additional ships with an unknown crew size operating with them pushing the number even higher, and doesn't count the losses stated in "Danger Zone" (97 ships, ~1300dead/mia). So to say the ASC had a couple thousand troops to work with doesn't add up no matter how you want to cut it.

Seto wrote:For that matter, in the Robotech version, the Daedalus arm was destroyed...

Actually it was severed above the elbow joint leaving the carrier itself relatively intact as depicted on screen. It (and the Prometheus) will likely require restoration work on the hull to return it to sea worthiness, but it is relatively intact by all indications in the show.

Seto wrote:Considering what we're shown of Earth, it doesn't look like they're actually doing anything agriculturally in the great outdoors (and considering the radiation was apparently severe enough to necessitate building a dome over some of the few cities, there may be a VERY good reason for that), they can get everything in terms of resources they need from mining operations in space, which is not-coincidentally where all their major factories are...

True about the agriculture depiction, but that doesn't mean "wild" growth isn't taking place, or it isn't happening at all off camera.

We don't actually know why the built a dome over Denver. Radiation might have nothing to do with it given Denver appears to be unique in that matter given Monument City, New Detroit, New Macross, New York City, Portland, Granite City, etc all lack domes. If radiation was the reason they did not have to rebuild the city.

Seto wrote:How very convenient, then, that solar system has an awful lot of asteroids in it.

But not all of them are useful to industry. Asteroids, like planets come in a variety of types (M/S/C-types being the most common). So that large pool will shrink. And some of those asteroids will likely be too small for practical mining. They are also scattered about over a much larger volume of space.

Seto wrote:And we know they did this, because we're explicitly told that's what the moon bases were before they were militarized.

Pure space based industry (which includes the Moon) though doesn't make sense for everything. There are going to be items that make more sense to produce locally than import from space. And totally ignores the facts in the series that establish that Earth in the 2013-2030 period has some level of industrial capacity:
-Ep35 Khyron's attack was focused on the industrial sector
-the SDF-2/new battlecruiser was completed in Ep36,
-workers put PC chips into circuit boards during TMS
-Earth was CUT OFF from resupply from space by the Masters during TRM yet:
--"ProtoEngineering" completed mass production of the new AGAC
--the "Pupil Pistol" was also mass produced.

Seto wrote:Assuming, of course, that a post-national government actually cares about vast tracts of useless and utterly uncontested land... because no freaking alien race gives a damn about Earth's land.

They most certainly do. Also while there may be tracts of unoccupied land, humanity had scattered itself into pockets. So the territory between those pockets is hardly going to go uncontested.

Recall that Emerson says there is nothing at the site of the SDF-1 that should interest anyone other than rotting robotechnology which is in the middle of a wasteland, and filled with what he basically describes as "Junk". So clearly Earth was interested in protecting what they viewed as useless land.

ShadowLogan wrote:Its not practical for Earth to use a starship to act as a wet navy surface ship. You are wasting capabilities that way.

It's not practical to design a tank that provides no protection whatsoever for the operator against either the elements or enemy fire... or to make your officers wear elaborate suits of full-body armor that aren't sealed and give your officers big, sculptural swans on their heads for no reason... or use rifles that have unergonomic grips and no sights... or to have your entire military use different equipment because senior officers are butthurt about being left behind... or to base your entire military around technology that you don't understand, powered by exotic fuels you also don't understand and can't replicate... or to retire an enormously capable and highly versatile series of multi-role variable fighters in favor of less-capable, less-versatile attack planes with a fraction of the armament and which can't even return to orbit if the attack goes south.

The Earth Forces in Robotech do all of these impractical things and many more besides... so saying they wouldn't do something because it's impractical falls flat so hard it measures on the Richter scale.

Of course, a SMART military might design a space carrier that could function equally well in space or in atmosphere... like a few ships I could name.

EDIT: And that's only the ones I had links with pictures on hand for... there are at least five more that leap to mind, but for which I do not have readily available art.

ShadowLogan wrote:Those wet navy surface ships are also capable of launching fighters just as well as any surface base or ship.

Or... you could look at it as the much better-supplied surface bases are also capable of launching fighters as well, or better, than any wet navy ship.

ShadowLogan wrote:That big fleet of theirs though isn't on station though, they are out on patrol elsewhere in the solar system or even farther out.

Convenient incompetence... but it still doesn't address why the UEDF would bother defending the vast swathes of completely empty and valueless radioactive desert.

ShadowLogan wrote:They certainly had more than a couple thousand troops to work with.

Prove it. We know the stats in the RPG for crew sizes are massively exaggerated and don't match the animation, so don't try that.

The show does repeatedly tell us that Earth was only working with the descendants of ~70,000 people who survived the war, after all... and a very small military would be entirely consistent with the OSM, in which the entire ATAC was only 15 squads.

ShadowLogan wrote:We don't actually know why the built a dome over Denver.

The infopedia fingers radiation as the reason.

ShadowLogan wrote:But not all of them are useful to industry. Asteroids, like planets come in a variety of types (M/S/C-types being the most common). So that large pool will shrink.

From overwhelmingly large to simply colossal beyond imagining... what a tragedy. How tragic, also, that the UEDF is sitting on four million ships worth of refined metals and other materials that we're told point-blank they used to build their fleet anyway.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Ep35 Khyron's attack was focused on the industrial sector

Producing? There's a lot of things that could be called "industrial", and if their idea of industry involves MANUALLY assembling circuit boards... well... that says a lot, doesn't it?

ShadowLogan wrote:-the SDF-2/new battlecruiser was completed in Ep36,

Ah, the amazing invisible battleship SDF-2...

ShadowLogan wrote:-workers put PC chips into circuit boards during TMS

Real high-tech industry there... manual assembly of circuit boards, the sort of process that would be very primitive even by 1985's standards.

ShadowLogan wrote:-Earth was CUT OFF from resupply from space by the Masters during TRM yet:
--"ProtoEngineering" completed mass production of the new AGAC
--the "Pupil Pistol" was also mass produced.

Cut off from DEEP SPACE... we know that they have significant manufacturing and resource facilities on Luna, and the "new AGAC" is not new, having appeared at least a dozen episodes before its supposed debut.

ShadowLogan wrote:They most certainly do. Also while there may be tracts of unoccupied land, humanity had scattered itself into pockets.

Not many pockets, if the official material is anything to go by... and they certainly don't seem all that fussed about having the Masters land on their world if the best they send out for patrols is two totally unarmored schmucks from a notoriously unreliable unit led by a known cretin.

ShadowLogan wrote:Recall that Emerson says there is nothing at the site of the SDF-1 that should interest anyone other than rotting robotechnology which is in the middle of a wasteland, and filled with what he basically describes as "Junk". So clearly Earth was interested in protecting what they viewed as useless land.

Clearly Emerson wasn't in on the secret... though I would expect as much, since the operation to hide the remains of the Macross was shown to be carried out by the UEEF brass.

Seto wrote:Or... you could look at it as the much better-supplied surface bases are also capable of launching fighters as well, or better, than any wet navy ship.

Not likely. The wet navy ship allows for potentially closer basing, so those fighters will have pilots that are less fatigued from the ride in, and can dedicate more of their payload to weapons instead of fuel. In order for the land based fighters to have an advantage, they would have to be larger than their wet navy counterpart and that is not likely going to be the case.

Seto wrote:Convenient incompetence... but it still doesn't address why the UEDF would bother defending the vast swathes of completely empty and valueless radioactive desert.

Because the swathes aren't as valueless as you claim.

Seto wrote:Prove it. We know the stats in the RPG for crew sizes are massively exaggerated and don't match the animation, so don't try that.

I wasn't using the RPG to establish crew sizes, I was using the RT.com infopedia. And they list a Tri-Star as having a crew of ~1000, and a Tok. at 6500. In "Danger Zone" alone the ASC losses amount to >1,000 people dead or MIA from just the first battle in the Ep per dialogue. Clearly the ASC roster isn't a few thousand people based on the dialogue.

In TSC they establish there are still millions of people down on Earth still in 2044. It is unlikely the growth rate increased after 2029 on Earth and likely declined due to lack of proper medical care. Just to reach 1million people in 2044 from 70,000 in 2013 would require a growth rate of approximately 9%. The current rate is ~1% (the historical PEAK was ~2% in the 1960s). So you would need a rate that is over 4.5 times the historical peak, or a much larger starting population to arrive at those numbers in 2044 and that doesn't even include the population that is off of Earth, which would push the growth rate even higher.

Seto wrote:From overwhelmingly large to simply colossal beyond imagining... what a tragedy. How tragic, also, that the UEDF is sitting on four million ships worth of refined metals and other materials that we're told point-blank they used to build their fleet anyway.

Nearly Six million ships actually (4.8million Grand Fleet PLUS Breetai's 1million =5.8million or ~6million). You will also need some level of industry to recycle those materials. The UEDF/UEEF aren't operating with IMUs after all. Still not everything the UEDF/UEEF and the Civilian market (which still exists by the time of TRM never mind TMS post Rain) produces/uses/demands will require materials from those robotech-age materials.

Seto wrote:Producing? There's a lot of things that could be called "industrial", and if their idea of industry involves MANUALLY assembling circuit boards... well... that says a lot, doesn't it?

Unknown, but we know it was an industrial section. It involved the manual installation of the Protoculture chips into them, which is not an unknown even in this day and age.

Seto wrote:Ah, the amazing invisible battleship SDF-2...

Regardless the SDF-2/new battlecruiser is stated to be finished in the dialogue. All indications are that the RFS wasn't able to produce squat in this time frame, so in order for construction to be finished on the new battlecruiser Gloval mentions to Lisa, they would have to have industry prior to the RFS capture mission (not to mention Carpenter's Tok. was said to be his home for 15years in 2029, so again industry has to exist).

Seto wrote:Real high-tech industry there... manual assembly of circuit boards, the sort of process that would be very primitive even by 1985's standards.

FINAL assembly of the circuit boards involved insertion of Protoculture chips into them. That itself is not unusual.

Narrator Ep26:"...the air workers sit at their benches completing electronic circuits they add protoculture chips to robotech circuitry but..." They aren't assembling the entire circuit board, but installing a single component.

Seto wrote:Cut off from DEEP SPACE... we know that they have significant manufacturing and resource facilities on Luna, and the "new AGAC" is not new, having appeared at least a dozen episodes before its supposed debut.

Yes the AGAC had an appearance in Ep37, BUT IT IS INTRODUCED AS NEW. So either it is a new model, new to the service branch/fleet, etc, but it is new and produced in large volume. So the AGACs Earth fielded had to come from somewhere, along with all those ships they used.

Seto wrote:Clearly Emerson wasn't in on the secret... though I would expect as much, since the operation to hide the remains of the Macross was shown to be carried out by the UEEF brass.

Regardless though, if the people (ASC) in charge for the daily defense of Earth think there is nothing there but "rotting robotechnology" and its worth defending by mobilizing a large task force...

ShadowLogan wrote:Not likely. The wet navy ship allows for potentially closer basing, so those fighters will have pilots that are less fatigued from the ride in, and can dedicate more of their payload to weapons instead of fuel.

Considering that the RPG asserts that these fighters often carry days worth of fuel for even their shortest sorties, and an orbital launch could get pretty much anywhere on the planet within a few minutes, a "wet" navy seems pretty irrelevant.

ShadowLogan wrote:Because the swathes aren't as valueless as you claim.

Again, prove it. We know they don't need to mine materials because they have four million ships worth of high tech alloys and sometimes whole working systems to play with. Water sources is debatable because there's nothing less sensible than building your cities thousands of kilometers away from viable sources of water, and we're told radiation was an issue.

ShadowLogan wrote:I wasn't using the RPG to establish crew sizes, I was using the RT.com infopedia.

Same problem... we KNOW it's exaggerated, because the crew sizes don't match even Harmony Gold's own animation, let alone the original stuff. They're often off by at least a factor of 10, sometimes more. The Garfish has a crew of 97 when it's barely large enough for nine alphas? Get real.

Of course, we wouldn't have had this problem if they hadn't subcontracted the Infopedia's research out to a fan group who, despite claiming to possess advanced degrees, can't tell a 3 from an 8.

Hell, RTSC proves beyond dispute that the numbers are massively exaggerated... there are barely enough fighters shown in the escort group for an Ikazuchi-class carrier to account for one sixth of its OSM capacity, let alone the five times larger capacity RT tries to claim it has.

ShadowLogan wrote:In "Danger Zone" alone the ASC losses amount to >1,000 people dead or MIA from just the first battle in the Ep per dialogue. Clearly the ASC roster isn't a few thousand people based on the dialogue.

Which they present as a significant loss... considering that the specialist branches number only a couple hundred people. But let's not get into matters of population, because we know that RTSC is playing fast and loose with the details, and Robotech is renowned for being a borderline nonsensical mess.

ShadowLogan wrote:Regardless the SDF-2/new battlecruiser is stated to be finished in the dialogue.

But we know nothing of it, or when it was actually built. Like the Tokugawa-class, it could easily have been already underway when the war broke out.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes the AGAC had an appearance in Ep37, BUT IT IS INTRODUCED AS NEW. [...]

Hooray for inconsistency! Yet another reason to put Robotech out to pasture.

The AGAC is not new, it appeared before the war even started. QED.

ShadowLogan wrote:Regardless though, if the people (ASC) in charge for the daily defense of Earth think there is nothing there but "rotting robotechnology" and its worth defending by mobilizing a large task force...

No, a schmuck that the people in charge don't listen to thinks there's nothing there but rotting robotechnology... and it's not exactly out in the boonies if it's an afternoon motorcycle ride away from the frigging capital city.

Seto wrote:Considering that the RPG asserts that these fighters often carry days worth of fuel for even their shortest sorties, and an orbital launch could get pretty much anywhere on the planet within a few minutes, a "wet" navy seems pretty irrelevant.

There are several problems with this viewpoint:
1. While the Veritech Fighters carry days worth of fuel, the bulk of the conventional fighters do not (range is listed in mile/km) with all but one exception (per military: Chimera for the UEDF and maybe the Conbat for the UEEF).
2. Orbital Mechanics depends on a variety of factors. That "minutes" window is really an overly optimistic best case scenerio depending on where the launch location is and the desired location. You are likely looking at a much larger transit time in the 10s of minutes or more in most cases.
3. Most of the fighter options lack the ability to return to orbit under their own power (Beta and VF-1 are the only exceptions that note the capacity). That means you have to have a ship capable of picking them up and returning them to orbit. It might also mean having forward positions for said fighters to return to should said ship be destroyed, or they deployed solo and/or suffered damage that prohibits them from returning to their "orbital launch location".

Seto wrote:Again, prove it. We know they don't need to mine materials because they have four million ships worth of high tech alloys and sometimes whole working systems to play with. Water sources is debatable because there's nothing less sensible than building your cities thousands of kilometers away from viable sources of water, and we're told radiation was an issue.

That the UEDF recovered materials from the crashed Zentraedi armada is not in dispute. The question is how long and to what extent those ships can actually be used for resources. The UEDF militaries may have a need for those high tech alloys, but the civilian market may not or have priority. I would also remind you that some percentage of those ships ARE scattered about in the wastelands (Khyron is shown to occupy a few such ships, there is also a wrecked Gnerl Fighter pod, etc), indicating that some of these resource sources the UEDF uses are infact in those same wastelands that you want to dismiss.

And that is just in the easy to define value to the territory in question. There is also that "human" value that is hard to define that may put some value on the land that can't be quantified easily.

Seto wrote:Same problem... we KNOW it's exaggerated, because the crew sizes don't match even Harmony Gold's own animation, let alone the original stuff. They're often off by at least a factor of 10, sometimes more. The Garfish has a crew of 97 when it's barely large enough for nine alphas? Get real.

What exactly do we have to base that it is exaggerated? It is entirely possible that the animation dialogue isn't intended to be taken literally in every instance which gives room with interprettation.

The Garfish is clearly big enough to hold a crew of 97 plus 9 Alphas. The Alphas are stored on two decks, ABOVE WHICH is another section that is easily as tall as the hangar decks and much longer. So conditions might be cramped, but you can put 97 people on a Garfish with room for 9 Alphas. A single large Schoolbus can hold nearly 80 people, and a single schoolbus of that size is also smaller than an Alpha.

Seto wrote:Which they present as a significant loss... considering that the specialist branches number only a couple hundred people. But let's not get into matters of population, because we know that RTSC is playing fast and loose with the details, and Robotech is renowned for being a borderline nonsensical mess.

Yes the attack was a signfiicant loss, but one has to remember the ASC had very little (nothing actually) to show for it's efforts. They also lost IINM 97 ships, which could be a significant portion of their space projection capability (on Earth) at the time, but not their overall capability as the ASC has a large block of missions to handle.

Seto wrote:But we know nothing of it, or when it was actually built. Like the Tokugawa-class, it could easily have been already underway when the war broke out.

True, but the main point is that these ships are finished AFTER the Rain of Death. Even if construction started before the RoD and they somehow survived the event, it still took 2-3 years to FINISH the ships, something they could not do without industry to support them.

Seto wrote:Hooray for inconsistency! Yet another reason to put Robotech out to pasture.

The AGAC is not new, it appeared before the war even started. QED.

I'm not sure it is an example of RT being inconsistent as there are a variety of ways to approach the situation to allow both to be true.

For instance: Are the AGACs in question supposed to be the same model or block version? Are the AGACs being used by the same military command, and if not could "new" being in reference to use by a given command as opposed to system wide? Is it possible that the AGAC seen in Ep37 is on some type of evaluation/testing deployment as opposed to regular deployment use? Etc.

ShadowLogan wrote:1. While the Veritech Fighters carry days worth of fuel, the bulk of the conventional fighters do not (range is listed in mile/km) [...]

... and that's just hilarious, considering the RPG describes them as generally being larger than a VF-1, with the same fusion reactor tech and the same fuel.

Technological backsliding? You bet.

ShadowLogan wrote:2. Orbital Mechanics depends on a variety of factors. That "minutes" window is really an overly optimistic best case scenerio depending on where the launch location is and the desired location.

Amusingly, that'd also mean a huge step BACKWARDS from the Macross Saga's capabilities, where we're shown that a VF-1 w/ Super Pack can power dive into Earth's atmosphere without displacing their pylon-mounted ordinance. Just a handful of ships in orbit would be enough to get fighters anywhere that they need to be with just as much speed (and rather more versatility) than any surface-based carrier.

The only problem would then be recovering the vastly inferior "2nd Generation" mecha after combat.

ShadowLogan wrote:3. Most of the fighter options lack the ability to return to orbit under their own power (Beta and VF-1 are the only exceptions that note the capacity).

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackslide!

ShadowLogan wrote:That the UEDF recovered materials from the crashed Zentraedi armada is not in dispute. The question is how long and to what extent those ships can actually be used for resources.

Enough that, according to the RPG, they can build whole classes of new warship around the systems they salvaged from Zentradi wrecks. Upwards of four million ships is an awful lot of metal and other materials.

ShadowLogan wrote:The UEDF militaries may have a need for those high tech alloys, but the civilian market may not or have priority.

With the sheer quantity of salvage material, there doesn't need to be priorities.

ShadowLogan wrote:I would also remind you that some percentage of those ships ARE scattered about in the wastelands (Khyron is shown to occupy a few such ships, there is also a wrecked Gnerl Fighter pod, etc), indicating that some of these resource sources the UEDF uses are infact in those same wastelands that you want to dismiss.

And just as many are near (looming over) established cities, and there's no doubt vast amounts of debris cluttering up near-orbital space, where factory satellites could cheerfully process it with minimal effort...

ShadowLogan wrote:What exactly do we have to base that it is exaggerated?

The line art on the Infopedia page visibly does not match the stated sizes, nor does the animation... and we see that these ships are not crewed nearly as heavily as they claim, with only two dozen fighters and fairly small command crews. Hell, the bridge of the Garfish-class only has four crew stations.

ShadowLogan wrote:For instance: Are the AGACs in question supposed to be the same model or block version? Are the AGACs being used by the same military command, and if not could "new" being in reference to use by a given command as opposed to system wide? Is it possible that the AGAC seen in Ep37 is on some type of evaluation/testing deployment as opposed to regular deployment use? Etc.

*sigh* A whole lot of word salad that can be torn down by basic, common sense.

1. Yes. There is only one version of the AGACs in canon, and a new block or variant doesn't constitute the whole aircraft being new.

2. Yes. Both in the OSM and Robotech, the Tactics Armored Space Corps are an element of the Southern Cross Army. We never see anyone other than the TASC using them anyway.

3. If they're in combat, the answer is almost certainly "No".

Seto wrote:C... and that's just hilarious, considering the RPG describes them as generally being larger than a VF-1, with the same fusion reactor tech and the same fuel.

Hilarious or not, that is what they state. It doesn't necessarily indicate a backslide either, but rather realistic expectations of the required endurance for the conventional fighter craft.

Seto wrote:Amusingly, that'd also mean a huge step BACKWARDS from the Macross Saga's capabilities, where we're shown that a VF-1 w/ Super Pack can power dive into Earth's atmosphere without displacing their pylon-mounted ordinance. Just a handful of ships in orbit would be enough to get fighters anywhere that they need to be with just as much speed (and rather more versatility) than any surface-based carrier.

Except Earth doesn't seem interested in placing ships in orbit for long period of time. You can counter the few expensive spaceships sitting in orbit with a larger quantity of cheaper surface-based carriers allowing for a wash. Those ships will also likely want to be in a higher orbit, which means any fighters they deploy will also take time to decend from orbit.

There is no backslide compared to the VF-1 either in terms of re-entry. The Chimera has internal bays for MRM missiles, it doesn't have any external hardpoints. The Beta and the Conbat don't mention anything in the RPG about needing to jettison their external ordnance. Even the Alpha can re-enter the Earth atmosphere with external gunpod (ordinance). Neither the AGAC nor Logan mention needing to jettison their external ordnance either (Gunpod, Missiles) for re-entry.

Seto wrote:Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackslide!

Not really. Considering the bulk of the ASC Conventional Fighters aren't space fighters, just like in TMS where the bulk of conventional aircraft aren't space capable. So more stagnation than backslide. In terms of the VFs yes, but considering how small the Logan is it isn't surprising that it lacks the capacity, and I have no idea what they where really thinking in terms of the AGAC, and the Alpha lets not get into that topic again.

Seto wrote:Enough that, according to the RPG, they can build whole classes of new warship around the systems they salvaged from Zentradi wrecks. Upwards of four million ships is an awful lot of metal and other materials.

Great, but how long (in years) can they sustain using Zentraedi wrecks? No recycling effort is going to be 100% efficient either.

Seto wrote:With the sheer quantity of salvage material, there doesn't need to be priorities.

Depends on how fast they can salvage the material, and if it is cost effective for the civilian market to use those recycled materials instead of going out and mining fresh materials since they likely don't need the super-alloys. Even the military may find it more cost-effective for some products to use non-recycled material.

Seto wrote:The line art on the Infopedia page visibly does not match the stated sizes, nor does the animation... and we see that these ships are not crewed nearly as heavily as they claim, with only two dozen fighters and fairly small command crews. Hell, the bridge of the Garfish-class only has four crew stations.

The SDF-1 had 5 stations (6 if you count Gloval's) in regular use on the Bridge. Depicted Bridge crew size is hardly an indicator of overall crew size for a ship.

Even if the stated size is off from the animation/lineart, that does not change the fact that the animation shows multiple waves of 2x3 ranks of VFA-6s launching from the undercarriage bays. And those undercarriage bays are not nearly as large as the top section, so one should have no trouble fitting 97 people into the volume of space that is larger than 9 Alphas since 3 adults can walk on one side of an Alpha with plenty of room to spare (animation, they are all located in the wing area), meaning you can double that by putting another set on the other side, one more in the cockpit (animation), and 2 more on the intake nacelles (Annie sits on the nacelle with room to spare in the animation, IINM even Lunk is shown on one, so one could easily double that), yielding 9 people in the volume of an Alpha with plenty of room to spare (9 Alphas at 9 people each, 81 people easily) for the top section. Could probably put two more people (total) on either side of the nose section (yielding an extra 18 people). NOT hard to see 97 people being able to fit in the available volume, EVEN w/o stated measurements and only going off the crew/mecha capacity.

Seto wrote:1. Yes. There is only one version of the AGACs in canon, and a new block or variant doesn't constitute the whole aircraft being new.

2. Yes. Both in the OSM and Robotech, the Tactics Armored Space Corps are an element of the Southern Cross Army. We never see anyone other than the TASC using them anyway.

3. If they're in combat, the answer is almost certainly "No".

1. Per the 2E RPG there IS an A and B model. While it is the RPG, it is official (if not canon).

2. Great, but we know that the Pioneer Mission was not subordinate to the ASC. The ASC is also likely divided into regional Commands too just like the US Military (who has CentCom, USPACOM, USAFRICOM, USEUCOM, USNORTHCOM, USSOUTHCOM), allowing for hardware to be new to a give region, but not necessarily to the entire service is what I am getting at.

3. Given the situation though it is possible they could be pressed into service if they are the closest responders.

they could have been preparing for a live fire test (most military prototypes IRL do this to work out the bugs and test the various weapons options planned).. and just wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] It doesn't necessarily indicate a backslide either, but rather realistic expectations of the required endurance for the conventional fighter craft.

We have planes that are roughly the same size, roughly the same mass, using the same type of engines with the same fuel... and yet, the older and more complicated plane far outclasses all of the newer, less complicated aircraft. This makes no sense at all, when you consider that the less complicated fighter is naturally going to have fewer systems consuming the output of the reactor and more room for fuel as it doesn't need to accommodate the complex mechanisms for transformation.

This is backsliding.

Per the RPG, the VF-1 has enough fuel for 48 hours of continuous flight and an effectively unlimited ferry range and combat radius... and this is actually far lower than the OSM and NASA would indicate. But for the Southern Cross Army's fighters, their listed performance in terms of range is actually worse than many modern jet fighters, even some going back decades. This is literally like the ASC is handling its planetary defense with old F-4 Phantoms.

ShadowLogan wrote:Not really. Considering the bulk of the ASC Conventional Fighters aren't space fighters, just like in TMS where the bulk of conventional aircraft aren't space capable.

Apart from the helicopters, there are very few non-space capable craft seen in Macross's animation.

ShadowLogan wrote:Great, but how long (in years) can they sustain using Zentraedi wrecks? No recycling effort is going to be 100% efficient either.

Long enough, apparently... there's no indication that they were in any danger of running out.

ShadowLogan wrote:The SDF-1 had 5 stations (6 if you count Gloval's) in regular use on the Bridge. Depicted Bridge crew size is hardly an indicator of overall crew size for a ship.

Actually, you're forgetting that the Macross has a multi-level bridge structure... you're only counting the core stations at the very top. Count the other two tiers that show up periodically in the animation, and you've got more like thirty or forty stations on the bridge. There's at least twenty chairs on the lowest level, and easily another ten on the second. Compare that to the Garfish-class, where the art for the bridge used in the animation shows a very small, very cramped space with just four seats, and is so small that the only access is through a ladder in the floor. The animation in the opening scenes of the series, which shows the deployment of fighters from the Ikazuchi-class, also doesn't bear out the size given in the RT spec... in fact, it's about half that size. I could go on... and on... and on...

ShadowLogan wrote:1. Per the 2E RPG there IS an A and B model. While it is the RPG, it is official (if not canon).

Harmony Gold has been very clear that the RPG is not, and never will be, canon.

The fact also remains that the only group ever shown using them, "new" or not, is the TASC... so that's clearly not a viable argument you're pushing.

ShadowLogan wrote:The ASC is also likely divided into regional Commands too just like the US Military

Which is inconsistent with both the RPG and the show... so I'd say it's not likely at all. There's no reason to be like that, because there are no nations or even any known settlements outside the American continents.

Seto wrote:Per the RPG, the VF-1 has enough fuel for 48 hours of continuous flight and an effectively unlimited ferry range and combat radius... and this is actually far lower than the OSM and NASA would indicate. But for the Southern Cross Army's fighters, their listed performance in terms of range is actually worse than many modern jet fighters, even some going back decades. This is literally like the ASC is handling its planetary defense with old F-4 Phantoms.

Great, but how much fuel are they actually carrying. The VF-1 might simply be getting longer endurance over the ASC fighters owing to carrying a larger fuel supply and nothing else. Now compared to the VT Logan/AGAC with their 7day (168hour) supply the backslide disappears when comparing VF to VF between the eras on these terms, especially when you consider that the Logan is much smaller than the VF-1.

As for range compared to real fighters, there are a variety of factors that can influence it (payload, the use of drop tanks) so I am not to convinced that this is an actual backslide and not an example of ASC requirements. There are ways to extend the range of the ASC fighters, though it requires imposing real world thinking to the designs in terms of allowing aerial refueling and/or the use of external drop tanks the use of which isn't mentioned in the 2E RPG (external tanks are mentioned for the TMS fighters though).

Seto wrote:Apart from the helicopters, there are very few non-space capable craft seen in Macross's animation.

Well the ASC only has 4 (Chimera, Sylphid, Falcon, Phantom, though the last may not qualify as) fixed wing aircraft described, only one of which is shown to be in space (another might be in space depending on who you ask for interpretation on particular scenes). Carpenter's Fighter also qualifies as a space fighter, but at this time it may or may not also be an atmospheric fighter (it certainly looks like it could do it), which would push the ASC total higher RT's TMS arc which has what 5 (Dragon, Falcon, Avenger, MiM, Ghost) fixed wing aircraft in similar role, and only one of them is shown to be space capable (Ghost) and atmospheric, more if one includes the background filler platforms at the airshow. If we include non-combat fixed wing aircraft there are several more, only one of which (Cat's Eye) is known to be modified for space use. So yes it is fair to say that the convention fixed wing aircraft aren't generally space capable as seen in the animation. Veritechs are another matter.

Seto wrote:Long enough, apparently... there's no indication that they were in any danger of running out.

In other words plot convenience.

Seto wrote:Actually, you're forgetting that the Macross has a multi-level bridge structure... you're only counting the core stations at the very top. Count the other two tiers that show up periodically in the animation, and you've got more like thirty or forty stations on the bridge. There's at least twenty chairs on the lowest level, and easily another ten on the second. Compare that to the Garfish-class, where the art for the bridge used in the animation shows a very small, very cramped space with just four seats, and is so small that the only access is through a ladder in the floor. The animation in the opening scenes of the series, which shows the deployment of fighters from the Ikazuchi-class, also doesn't bear out the size given in the RT spec... in fact, it's about half that size. I could go on... and on... and on...

I had not forgotton about the multi-level SDF-1 bridge. However the bulk of the depictions is the core 5-6 stations above it, which can be used to argue that the garfish could be being portrayed with the same focus on one section of the bridge/command system since there was only 4 people available to crew the ship. Scott's Horizon is shown with 6 crew stations afterall, and that ship is unarmed (unlike the garfish) and has much less volume to work with overall. And as I explained I see no issue in fitting 97 people into a Garfish based on nothing but the animation, it can be shown that 97 people is completely resonable.

As for the Ikaz. you mean in relation to the auxillary craft correct and not the Alpha payload. The front of the ship does have what appear to be doors similar to the side bays in several easily available screen captures (Robotech Research Picture archive), though AFAIK they aren't shown to open, but the possibility exists for them to be interpretted as such. The payload of additional mecha doesn't seem off either, when you consider available volume in relation to the alpha bays either. Actual dimensional measurements, not going to get into.

Seto wrote:Harmony Gold has been very clear that the RPG is not, and never will be, canon.

The fact also remains that the only group ever shown using them, "new" or not, is the TASC... so that's clearly not a viable argument you're pushing.

While the RPG may not be canon, it is an official product.

The TASC likely is not a single entity, it has sub-entities (squadrons, fleets, etc), so it is possible that some of those sub-entities could have "new" hardware before others. So addressing an aspect of the TASC that hasn't used a given item could still be seen as "new" from their POV.

Seto wrote:Which is inconsistent with both the RPG and the show... so I'd say it's not likely at all. There's no reason to be like that, because there are no nations or even any known settlements outside the American continents.

I disagree. While the ASC might not organize it along the specific regions like the US military, it might instead do something similar in terms of regional commands. The Pioneer Mission would be an example of one such command, SSL/LO-group may indicate another, and Earth proper a third. They are all part of the same UEG Military, but individual commands as it is unreasonable to expect Earth to be able manage forces spread so far under a single command.

ShadowLogan wrote:Great, but how much fuel are they actually carrying. The VF-1 might simply be getting longer endurance over the ASC fighters owing to carrying a larger fuel supply and nothing else. [...]

The VF-1 has far less room to actually carry fuel than either the Sylphid or the Falcon... are you seriously asserting that these inferior planes in the ASC inventory were deliberately designed to be inferior?

ShadowLogan wrote:Now compared to the VT Logan/AGAC with their 7day (168hour) supply the backslide disappears when comparing VF to VF between the eras on these terms, especially when you consider that the Logan is much smaller than the VF-1.

Nah, the backslide just moves to a different area of performance... like speed and armament.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for range compared to real fighters, there are a variety of factors that can influence it (payload, the use of drop tanks) so I am not to convinced that this is an actual backslide and not an example of ASC requirements.

These are fighters designed for planetary defense... SPECIFICALLY built for that purpose and no other, by an insane military dictator who insisted on using radically different gear because he wasn't happy with UEEF policy.

These fighters, which are meant - or so you assert - to protect AN ENTIRE PLANET (of mostly-empty and worthless desolation), have inferior range to modern jet fighters. Planes which are supposed to be almost literal dinosaurs by this point.

ShadowLogan wrote:[...] which would push the ASC total higher RT's TMS arc which has what 5 (Dragon, Falcon, Avenger, MiM, Ghost)

*headscratches* How did the Ghost get on that list? Also, the Falcon is a Masters Saga design, unless you're referring to a plane by an incorrect name.

ShadowLogan wrote:I had not forgotton about the multi-level SDF-1 bridge. However the bulk of the depictions is the core 5-6 stations above it, which can be used to argue that the garfish could be being portrayed with the same focus on one section of the bridge/command system since there was only 4 people available to crew the ship.

We see the bridge is a small, totally enclosed area with no room for lower floors or anything like that... the whole affair is practically a closet.

ShadowLogan wrote:As for the Ikaz. you mean in relation to the auxillary craft correct and not the Alpha payload. The front of the ship does have what appear to be doors similar to the side bays in several easily available screen captures (Robotech Research Picture archive), though AFAIK they aren't shown to open, but the possibility exists for them to be interpretted as such.

I deal in facts, not fantasy, my friend.

I mean in total, as well... there are no auxiliary craft shown, EVER.

ShadowLogan wrote:While the RPG may not be canon, it is an official product.

So are the Star Trek tech manuals, or Macross's Master File books, but neither franchise considers those canon either... "official" for RT just means "this didn't offend us enough to provoke a book-burning frenzy".

ShadowLogan wrote:The TASC likely is not a single entity, it has sub-entities (squadrons, fleets, etc), so it is possible that some of those sub-entities could have "new" hardware before others. So addressing an aspect of the TASC that hasn't used a given item could still be seen as "new" from their POV.

No, it doesn't... the TASC is never shown to actually possess any ships, and there's a very good reason behind that. You see, in the original, the Transport Corps were responsible for all of the ships, while the Tactics Armored Space Corps was basically just fighter pilots.

ShadowLogan wrote:I disagree. While the ASC might not organize it along the specific regions like the US military, it might instead do something similar in terms of regional commands.

Except there's no need for that. Just because they COULD theoretically do something doesn't mean it's practical, sane, or viable in any way. I mean, I COULD deliver my next few replies in limerick form, but it wouldn't really be value-added.

With only a few cities left on the planet, all apparently clustered within a few hours flight of each other, there's no NEED for regional commands. They're not defending a planet, just a handful of cities on that planet.

ShadowLogan wrote:The Pioneer Mission would be an example of one such command, SSL/LO-group may indicate another, and Earth proper a third. They are all part of the same UEG Military, but individual commands as it is unreasonable to expect Earth to be able manage forces spread so far under a single command.

The Pioneer Mission is an operation carried out by the UEEF, nothing more. Liberty Station is a station administrated by the same UEEF command staff the Pioneer mission was. Earth is a wholly separate and not even remotely equal command structure... with the RPG even going so far as to suggest that it was a military dictatorship in everything but name.

Seto wrote:The VF-1 has far less room to actually carry fuel than either the Sylphid or the Falcon... are you seriously asserting that these inferior planes in the ASC inventory were deliberately designed to be inferior?

&

Seto wrote:Nah, the backslide just moves to a different area of performance... like speed and armament.

Even though the VF-X-4 had "breathtaking performance" it lost out to the VF-X-6, so clearly a variety of performance metrics are in play resulting in a shift in emphasis and needs from the UEDF-RDF to the UEDF-ASC/UEEF. So their is no technological backslide, merely a shifting in terms of requirements.

It also doesn't help that YOU ARE also comparing apples to oranges w/n the VFs (different classification and empahsis in roles) and even VFs to conventional fighters.

Seto wrote:These fighters, which are meant - or so you assert - to protect AN ENTIRE PLANET (of mostly-empty and worthless desolation), have inferior range to modern jet fighters. Planes which are supposed to be almost literal dinosaurs by this point.

Modern Fighters also have theoretical access to things like Aerial refueling, and the use of drop tanks to greatly extend their range. Neither feature is mentioned in relation to the ASC Fighters, so baseline fighter to fighter (w/o external tanks) comparision would be best as some real fighters operate regularly w/external tanks.

Seto wrote:*headscratches* How did the Ghost get on that list? Also, the Falcon is a Masters Saga design, unless you're referring to a plane by an incorrect name.

The QF-3000 Ghost is shown to be based on the surface in early episode (#1) and is deployed to assist the Veritechs that are also deployed from Macross Island. That makes it an aircraft IMHO. I realize its a drone, but it still qualifies for the list. It is not a reference to the Macross Plus unit.

The Falcon, my mistake. Doesn't really change much as it still shows the majority of planes aren't being built for use in space in either saga.

Seto wrote:We see the bridge is a small, totally enclosed area with no room for lower floors or anything like that... the whole affair is practically a closet.

The whole affair isn't practically a closet, unless you and I have very different concepts of what constitutes a closet in size or are in a Robot apartment building in New New York in the year 3000.

To me the issue isn't the stated crew size, I have no trouble seeing 97 people fitting into a Garfish like you do. Nor do I see how the Bridge Crew size determines the overall crew size. The issue really is what roles those people all play. They can't all be bridge crew or Alpha pilots. They have to have things like medics, damage control technicians, engineers, relief personnel, and other support staff given the size.

Seto wrote:I mean in total, as well... there are no auxiliary craft shown, EVER.

I'm aware that no auxillary craft are shown, but it could explain where the idea in canon RT material comes from.

Seto wrote:Except there's no need for that. Just because they COULD theoretically do something doesn't mean it's practical, sane, or viable in any way. I mean, I COULD deliver my next few replies in limerick form, but it wouldn't really be value-added.

With only a few cities left on the planet, all apparently clustered within a few hours flight of each other, there's no NEED for regional commands. They're not defending a planet, just a handful of cities on that planet.

Yes there is a need for it. I'm not saying Earth itself was divided up into regional commands by the ASC, I am saying the entire Earth military was divided up into commands. You have the Planet itself proper (ASC, which may or may not have included the Moon at the start of TRM). Then you have the Pioneer Mission/UEEF which is part of the Earth Govt. Military. Though how SSL and other off world locations (Moon Bases, etc) fall I don't know, they could have their own command essentially since these elements of the Earth military are definatly more than a few hours flight from each other.

ShadowLogan wrote:Even though the VF-X-4 had "breathtaking performance" it lost out to the VF-X-6, so clearly a variety of performance metrics are in play [...]

Yep... apparently after the Macross Saga the sole metric that mattered to the military-run design bureau was the sheer inappropriateness of any given craft for the role to which it was assigned, something they were apparently looking to maximize.

ShadowLogan wrote:So their is no technological backslide, merely a shifting in terms of requirements. [...]

There's pretty clear evidence of a technological backslide right there.

ShadowLogan wrote:It also doesn't help that YOU ARE also comparing apples to oranges w/n the VFs (different classification and empahsis in roles) and even VFs to conventional fighters.

Wrong. It's an apples-to-apples comparison between two fusion-powered aircraft in the same size and weight classes, which use the same engine technology. Yet the older, more complex one with less room for fuel has an unlimited sortie range and the newer, less complex one that logically has more room that can be devoted to fuel has operational ranges right out of the Vietnam War-era US inventory.

Something is BADLY wrong there.

ShadowLogan wrote:Modern Fighters also have theoretical access to things like Aerial refueling, and the use of drop tanks to greatly extend their range. Neither feature is mentioned in relation to the ASC Fighters, so baseline fighter to fighter (w/o external tanks) comparision would be best as some real fighters operate regularly w/external tanks.

That's what this is... and the ASC's fighters for "planetary defense" are coming up second best to wholly ordinary, fossil fuel-burning, mid-1970s technology despite using the same engine technology and fuel as transforming fighters that can fly continuously for days (and having worse performance in the bargain!).

ShadowLogan wrote:The QF-3000 Ghost is shown to be based on the surface in early episode (#1) and is deployed to assist the Veritechs that are also deployed from Macross Island. That makes it an aircraft IMHO. I realize its a drone, but it still qualifies for the list. It is not a reference to the Macross Plus unit.

I didn't think you meant the AIF-X-9 Ghost, honestly... but the QF-3000E Ghost is, yes, an unmanned space-capable aircraft of the lifting body type.

ShadowLogan wrote:The whole affair isn't practically a closet, unless you and I have very different concepts of what constitutes a closet in size or are in a Robot apartment building in New New York in the year 3000.

You may need to go back and look at the animation. The whole bridge space for the Garfish class we're shown, is a roughly rectangular space roughly six feet by fifteen, seating four... or roughly around the size of a large-ish walk-in closet or the floorplan of a small minivan.

ShadowLogan wrote:To me the issue isn't the stated crew size, I have no trouble seeing 97 people fitting into a Garfish like you do.

Considering we're shown that most of the ship's interior is given over to cargo space in the series... I'm inclined to believe that your concept of the ship's internal volume is not on a sound factual footing. It's also worth noting that every time we're shown the inside of these ships, they're mostly empty space with no evidence of the number of people who, were the RT numbers anything like accurate, ought to be crawling over that space in the dozens. We don't even see the hundred-plus fighters that those ships ought to be carrying per the OSM in RTSC... they carry only a few dozen.

Going from the art on the Infopedia, it doesn't help your case that the Garfish's size is clearly overstated by 100m.

ShadowLogan wrote:Nor do I see how the Bridge Crew size determines the overall crew size.

The two are usually proportionate when it comes to human ships... and this is a trope that extends into a wide assortment of sci-fi. Small ship, small bridge crew. Big ship, big bridge crew, even if the tech makes most of the processes automated. The more you expect the ship to do, the more energy you have to put into command and control.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes there is a need for it. I'm not saying Earth itself was divided up into regional commands by the ASC, I am saying the entire Earth military was divided up into commands.

Something not borne out by the show or the RPG, which suggests the military (regardless of its size) was essentially a single, monolithic organization... or two, if you count the UEEF, which was not answerable to the UEDF or vice versa.

Seto wrote:Yep... apparently after the Macross Saga the sole metric that mattered to the military-run design bureau was the sheer inappropriateness of any given craft for the role to which it was assigned, something they were apparently looking to maximize.

I do agree that that the UEDF-ASC tended to have apparently a more optimistic viewpoint as seen in the leadership (Emerson being the exception), but the question does have to be considered what they (ASC) expected to have to deal with in setting requirements.

Seto wrote:There's pretty clear evidence of a technological backslide right there.

No there isn't. The UEDF-ASC and UEEF are capable of producing the VF-X-4, but choose not to do so. That they did not indicates that requirements shifted in what mattered to them. The backslide is in requirements chosen for their next generation designs, not their technology base. Then again the technology backslide can disappear if TPTB actually assigned the stats for greater continouity instead of trying to shoe-horn in OSM stats.

Seto wrote:Wrong. It's an apples-to-apples comparison between two fusion-powered aircraft in the same size and weight classes, which use the same engine technology. Yet the older, more complex one with less room for fuel has an unlimited sortie range and the newer, less complex one that logically has more room that can be devoted to fuel has operational ranges right out of the Vietnam War-era US inventory.

From a limited view point they can be seen as apples-apples, but they are not in fact apples at a wholistic level. Nor where the built with all the same requirements in mind.

Being non-transformable platforms, the conventional vehicles likely had different endurance requirements compared to the VF-1 (and other VTs). Just because they have the room to put in days worth of fuel, does not mean they have a need to. Veritechs by their nature have requirements that can push for a longer endurance (space patrol, ground operations, etc) that would be wasted on conventional fighters.

Seto wrote:You may need to go back and look at the animation. The whole bridge space for the Garfish class we're shown, is a roughly rectangular space roughly six feet by fifteen, seating four... or roughly around the size of a large-ish walk-in closet or the floorplan of a small minivan.

I've reviewed screen captures of the animation. Width looks to be closer to 10ft, length looks about right. That's not a large walk-in closet, that's a small bedroom.

Seto wrote:Considering we're shown that most of the ship's interior is given over to cargo space in the series... I'm inclined to believe that your concept of the ship's internal volume is not on a sound factual footing. It's also worth noting that every time we're shown the inside of these ships, they're mostly empty space with no evidence of the number of people who, were the RT numbers anything like accurate, ought to be crawling over that space in the dozens. We don't even see the hundred-plus fighters that those ships ought to be carrying per the OSM in RTSC... they carry only a few dozen.

The only garfish interior we see in the animation is the Old Timers. Nor are we given a grand tour. We only see the bridge, hold, and a rec-room (large enough for 7+5=12 people w/room to spare). I've also explained how the available volume allows for a crew of 97 to fit. So there is nothing wrong with my concept of the internal volume. I recognize that we haven't bene shown the entire ship, but the available volume is plenty large enough to allow for a crew of 97 to fit with plenty of room to spare.

Seto wrote:Going from the art on the Infopedia, it doesn't help your case that the Garfish's size is clearly overstated by 100m.

I'm not using the stated size in the infopedia, merely the animation depiction. One can clearly fit 97 people in the available volume. I've previously described how many people one can comfortably fit in the space an Alpha occupies with an Alpha present from the animation (9 each Alpha). There are 15 Alphas on board carried in the lower double decker pods (I assumed 9 previously, at 15 they can handle 9*15=135) and are shown to launch form said Garfish in the animation, which has similar/less volume than the squashed conical nose section, and does not consider the block section between the "nose" and the engine blocks. So fitting a crew of 97 people is not a problem regardless of the size listed in the infopedia or the OSM size.

The Ship is also supposed to be modular, so the ship could be reconfigured for a given mission. An armed freighter isn't going to need the same crew as one acting as a mini-carrier or science/recon vessel. And it is reasonable that the Old Timers Garfish was in an armed freighter configuration given their supply of arms they had for sale that are said to be issued to them. Plus who knows what modifications they might have made to their "home" and "trading outpost" during the Invid Occupation (remove non essential bulkheads, move materials around, etc).

Seto wrote:The two are usually proportionate when it comes to human ships... and this is a trope that extends into a wide assortment of sci-fi. Small ship, small bridge crew. Big ship, big bridge crew, even if the tech makes most of the processes automated. The more you expect the ship to do, the more energy you have to put into command and control.

No they are not proportionate. You also have to consider how many shifts are present (2 or 3 likely), and what various jobs exist on the ship and what role(s) the ship is expected to perform
4 person bridge crew
# Cooks (if any assigned)
# Medics (likely)
# of technicians for damage control and regular maintainence (bridge crew can't expect to do it under combat conditions)
# for internal security/repell boarders (again bridge crew can't expect to do it under all conditions)
# for seperate sensor crew pit (possible)
etc.

Seto wrote:Something not borne out by the show or the RPG, which suggests the military (regardless of its size) was essentially a single, monolithic organization... or two, if you count the UEEF, which was not answerable to the UEDF or vice versa.

Being divided into commands does not remove it from being a single monolithic organization. All it does is allow some parts of the organization to recieve what to them is "new" hardware that has been in service with other parts for some time. And we know the organization had sub-parts (10th and 21st MD, TS 85, 15th ATAC, 14 ATAC-IIRC, GMP, TASC, Skull Squadron, Wolfe Squadron, Pioneer Mission, Liberty Observer Group, etc).

In any case there is another reason to have naval ships deployed. Approximately 75% of the Earth's surface is covered in water. We know from the animation that Earth had Ground Radar to call up on should satellites go down. In order to have optimal coverage of the Earth for minimal blindspots, they would need to have some ships or bases out at sea. And those locations are also going to need defensive capabilities (warships and fighters) and resupply. While airpower/space power alone could do the job, they aren't cost effective (that's why even today we see ship things by sea).