Mind Bolt modification?

[say652]

Hu. Mindbolt. 1D6 per six isp spent. Since its a psionic attack it converts to mdc in mdc settings.
You are welcome. Please hold the applause.

[eliakon]

Mind Bolt is a Super-Psionic ability, yet the ISP cost to damage ratio is pretty pathetic in my view.

Here's the stats from RUE, p180:

Range: 100' (30.5m) per level of experience
Duration: Instant
ISP: Varies

06 ISP: 1D6 SDC
12 ISP: 3D6 SDC
20 ISP: 6D6 SDC
40 ISP: 2D4 Mega-Damage! (this is how it's hilariously written in the book, as if 2D4 MD was some HUGE sum)

Note: All Mind Bolts are +4 to strike, but adding an additional 10 ISP increases the strike bonus to +8 to strike. Remember ley lines and nexus points increase the range and damage. This is a physical attack that inflicts physical damage.

So, seriously, 40 ISP to do 2D4 MD? That is pretty weak considering that:

A) Electrokinesis - Electrical MD attack only costs 18 ISP, but does 3D6 MD.
B) Telekinetic Acceleration Attack only costs 20 ISP, but does 3D6+4 MD
C) Pyrokinesis - Fireball only costs 25 ISP, but does 6D6 MD.

So why the hell would you ever pick Mind Bolt as a super-psionic?

I'll grant you that it's an invisible attack, but still the damage is not in proportion with the ISP cost. Might as well rename it "Mild Bolt" instead of "Mind Bolt".

My house rule on this psionic works like this:

02 ISP: 1D6 SDC
04 ISP: 4D6 SDC
08 ISP: 6D6 SDC
10 ISP: 1D6x10 SDC
15 ISP: 2D6 MDC
25 ISP: 4D6 MDC
35 ISP: 6D6+6 MDC
50 ISP: 1D6x10 MDC

What's your take on this issue?

Welcome to cut and paste land.
The power to do MD with your mind WAS impressive, especially where the MD mind bolt came from (Robotech Sentinels) it was also pretty impressive in the RMB days since few powers did MD. It just hasn't gotten an update like it should. *shrugs*

[Tor]

40 ISP to do 2D4 MD? That is pretty weak considering that:

A) Electrokinesis - Electrical MD attack only costs 18 ISP, but does 3D6 MD.
B) Telekinetic Acceleration Attack only costs 20 ISP, but does 3D6+4 MD
C) Pyrokinesis - Fireball only costs 25 ISP, but does 6D6 MD.

So why the hell would you ever pick Mind Bolt as a super-psionic?

I'll grant you that it's an invisible attack, but still the damage is not in proportion with the ISP cost.

You didn't mention the range of these powers.

Also: TK-acceleration requires ammunition.

Also: some beings are immune to energy attacks like electricity/pyro

[Tor]

It's not really a "I'm going to take on the SAMAS" kind of power, I always saw it as an assassination or espionage tool.

We ought to keep in mind that other creatures who got Psi-Blast powers got them in a certain ratio to how powerful mind bolt is, so we would be removing their advantage by giving this to anybody.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Mind Bolt is a Super-Psionic ability, yet the ISP cost to damage ratio is pretty pathetic in my view.

Here's the stats from RUE, p180:

Range: 100' (30.5m) per level of experience
Duration: Instant
ISP: Varies

06 ISP: 1D6 SDC
12 ISP: 3D6 SDC
20 ISP: 6D6 SDC
40 ISP: 2D4 Mega-Damage! (this is how it's hilariously written in the book, as if 2D4 MD was some HUGE sum)

Wow.....20 ISP does 6d6 SD....

In the PF2 MB the same power 18 ISP only does 3d6 SD & 24 ISP doing only 4d6 SD......

Course I have not really played a master Psi char.

[Tor]

I think people are missing the point, Mind Bolt clearly was not meant to be a main battle spell, it was basically supposed to be the equal of a mundane energy pistol at high expense, even with RMB.

[say652]

Idk dumping 60isp to hit like a 50 cal machinegun seems legit.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Would rather power up a TK Rifle with the ISP then using it with mind bolt. (speaking Rifts)

[say652]

Any port in a storm. Some beasties require certain things to injure them. Except psionics they hurt everything. Its like these people received a smile from Chuck Norris granting them bad assery. Lol

[eliakon]

I think people are missing the point, Mind Bolt clearly was not meant to be a main battle spell, it was basically supposed to be the equal of a mundane energy pistol at high expense, even with RMB.

And since back in RMB days MD was, in theory, rare. There were only three spells TOTAL that did MD (Fireball, Fire Bolt, Call Lightning) and two psi (Mind Bolt, and psi-sword.) and one of those (psi-sword) could only be taken by Mind Melters and Cyberknights (a lesser version)everything else was SD. So yah, in the day it was beyond awesome. Now? Its meh to sub-par. But back then?

[say652]

Ok it deals psionic damage at range!! Not fire or electricity or bubbles. Psionic damage at range!
How is this a subpar to meh ability?

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

There are a couple alternative versions of Mind Bolt in the Psionics Netbook that someone compiled a long while back.

Here's a link: http://nexusnine.net/doc/nb/index.html

[say652]

Yea I forgot the HU version was in the web book. I also hooked up Tanya(??) Burster with the pyroSword ability. For the GreenBrook games.

[eliakon]

There are a couple alternative versions of Mind Bolt in the Psionics Netbook that someone compiled a long while back.

Here's a link: http://nexusnine.net/doc/nb/index.html

Though if your going to use house rules and unofficial material anyway....you could just 'fix' the power by changing it to something that the group feels is more appropriate.....

[say652]

Or realize dealing psionic damage at a distance rocks.

[Tor]

Would rather power up a TK Rifle with the ISP then using it with mind bolt. (speaking Rifts)

and I'm sure most Mind Melters do this in a battle situation, but it wouldn't be much of an option in a place where weapons aren't allowed

There were only three spells TOTAL that did MD (Fireball, Fire Bolt, Call Lightning)

Are we not counting Summon Shadow Beast, Create Golem or Summon Lesser Being because they didn't inflict MD instantly?

Anime Dead / Mummy / Zombie were also pretty good ways at doing some MD from a distance if you bought some vibro blades and then hid in the bushes while minions did work.

and two psi (Mind Bolt, and psi-sword.)

Bursters could do MD with their super-pyro, a power unique to their class.

Now? Its meh to sub-par. But back then?

We could say the same about Cyber-Knight's psi-swords, doesn't mean they need to be boosted.

I think people are missing the point, Mind Bolt clearly was not meant to be a main battle spell, it was basically supposed to be the equal of a mundane energy pistol at high expense, even with RMB.

I disagree. It's a combat psionic; you can't use it in any other way except to destroy things or hurt people.

My saying it is not a "main battle spell" (I should have said 'power' though...) means that I'm saying it wasn't exactly meant to go toe-to-toe with MD weapons in a direct battle. That doesn't mean I'm saying it isn't a "combat" power, just that it's always been a tool more suited to assassination or last-ditch measures.

Even in the main book, with an average of 5 MD rolled per 40 ISP a level 5 Mind Melter (who would have a rough average of 160 ISP) would only be able to inflict 20 MD with the power. Even back in RMB when everything was weaker, this wasn't even enough to destroy the weakest suit of body armor (plastic man).

This power was never meant to be an alternative to modern MD weapons, it was never meant to match it. Boosting it to those levels is deviating from the original concept, and inappropriately putting it on par with other powers from later books exclusive to other classes.

If someone really wants to fire ranged psionic attacks there's plenty of classes to do it with. Those psychic native americans who throw psi-tomahawks and psi-spears for example.

Me too. It's worthless.

Mind Bolt is quite useful if you're trying to disable an SDC opponent or target.

I'd rather use Super-TK, pick someone up, and throw them out a window.

I suppose that works fine, if you're up high, and if there's a window.

Or realize dealing psionic damage at a distance rocks.

I think if people want psionics to be better they should just make a house rule like "all psionic powers do 10x as much damage as listed" or something like that, not just boost 1 power in isolation.

[grandmaster z0b]

I think people often construe meaning and purpose for what was clearly a lazy copy-paste.

Mind Bolt is clearly underpowered for the ISP cost. Sure it has its uses as an assassination tool inside cities and other places without MD, but that's very circumstantial for 40 ISP.

[Tor]

It wasn't underpowered for the ISP cost in RMB, it only seems that way due to power creep.

Aside from Bursters, who else could launch ranged MD attacks for such an ISP cost?

It pales next to Psi-Sword's damage, but that had a melee range limitation and a delay activation time and a level selection limit.

[Killer Cyborg]

It wasn't underpowered for the ISP cost in RMB, it only seems that way due to power creep.

Aside from Bursters, who else could launch ranged MD attacks for such an ISP cost?

It pales next to Psi-Sword's damage, but that had a melee range limitation and a delay activation time and a level selection limit.

Yup.

[grandmaster z0b]

It wasn't underpowered for the ISP cost in RMB, it only seems that way due to power creep.

Aside from Bursters, who else could launch ranged MD attacks for such an ISP cost?

It pales next to Psi-Sword's damage, but that had a melee range limitation and a delay activation time and a level selection limit.

Yup.

I remember thinking it was underpowered and cost too much ISP back in the mid 90s when I only had the RMB. Even without power creep I never thought it was very useful except for assassination.

[Tor]

Upon getting CB1 you realized it was an awesome anti-Zavor tool though right?

[Killer Cyborg]

It wasn't underpowered for the ISP cost in RMB, it only seems that way due to power creep.

Aside from Bursters, who else could launch ranged MD attacks for such an ISP cost?

It pales next to Psi-Sword's damage, but that had a melee range limitation and a delay activation time and a level selection limit.

Yup.

I remember thinking it was underpowered and cost too much ISP back in the mid 90s when I only had the RMB. Even without power creep I never thought it was very useful except for assassination.

It wasn't a go-to combat power or anything.
But it was still inflicting mega-damage with your mind, which was pretty significant because we still gave SDC a strong presence in the world.

[grandmaster z0b]

I still think it did and does cost too much ISP for something so situational. It would hardly become too powerful if it cost less ISP.

[Tor]

It actually would. You could get a more efficient long-range shot by using something like a TK machine gun, but aside from cost, that had the limitation of needing obvious equipment that would make you a target. Mind Bolts essentially allow you to attack invisibly.

[Killer Cyborg]

I still think it did and does cost too much ISP for something so situational. It would hardly become too powerful if it cost less ISP.

I agree that the cost could be lower without unbalancing the power.
Especially with all the power creep since the main book.

[Mack]

I would call it a surprise assault tool instead of assassination tool (though it's certainly that as well.) If you opponent is wearing partial armor, or they aren't wearing a faceplate/helmet, then you may be able to pull a quick one-shot kill. It'd be a called shot, but with a possible +8 to strike it could well be worth it. An opponent must be very deliberate to never expose a non-MDC part.

But I think the real power of Mind Bolt is not in the ability itself, but in the threat of the ability. Everyone will be paranoid. This is where some very good role playing can be had without ever using the power. (Kinda like the old west gunslinger who never actual shoots any one.) No bartender or shopkeeper is every going to short-change the PC because of what could happen in an instant. (Yes, this is true for other characters as well, like Bursters.)

And I find it amusing that Psi-Slingers automatically get this power. I have a scene in my head of a Psi-Slinger pointing his finger like a gun and saying "pow" while everyone around cringes to see if he was joking or not.

[Killer Cyborg]

Nice assessment, Mack.

[Thinyser]

My GM said that it was a direct damage ability that ignores standard armor (but not power armor or robots), so against squishies in normal armor it was totally badass. He did give the target a save if the strike roll hit (which it almost always did) to reduce the damage to the next lower category.

Our group's mind melter was the biggest money maker we had. He would pop off a couple of the 2d4 MD attacks at people in armor and we would take head shots at the rest and we ended most combats with 2 full suits of undamaged armor and several more sets of helmetless armor to sell on the black market.

[Tor]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

[Thinyser]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

The fact that he could only get off a couple of shots before his ISP was depleted, and the target had a save to convert 2d4 MD to 6d6SDC (which happened pretty often but still cost the 40 ISP) made it much less powerful than you might think. It was still better than what it is in RAW but not by much.

[Glistam]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

The fact that he could only get off a couple of shots before his ISP was depleted, and the target had a save to convert 2d4 MD to 6d6SDC (which happened pretty often but still cost the 40 ISP) made it much less powerful than you might think. It was still better than what it is in RAW but not by much.

That actually seems like a pretty decent modification.

[Thinyser]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

The fact that he could only get off a couple of shots before his ISP was depleted, and the target had a save to convert 2d4 MD to 6d6SDC (which happened pretty often but still cost the 40 ISP) made it much less powerful than you might think. It was still better than what it is in RAW but not by much.

That actually seems like a pretty decent modification.

Yeah the GM was pretty strict about not allowing stuff that was too unbalancing, this was not bad and was actually his own house rule from long before I ever gamed with him. It helped us make a bit more cash but it wasn't a "game changer" or "game breaker" by any means.

[Killer Cyborg]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

The fact that he could only get off a couple of shots before his ISP was depleted, and the target had a save to convert 2d4 MD to 6d6SDC (which happened pretty often but still cost the 40 ISP) made it much less powerful than you might think. It was still better than what it is in RAW but not by much.

That actually seems like a pretty decent modification.

Yeah the GM was pretty strict about not allowing stuff that was too unbalancing, this was not bad and was actually his own house rule from long before I ever gamed with him. It helped us make a bit more cash but it wasn't a "game changer" or "game breaker" by any means.

How often was it used against the PCs?

[Thinyser]

That basically makes it better than phase blasts, too much power IMO.

Called shots for removed helmets or open face plates are fine though.

The fact that he could only get off a couple of shots before his ISP was depleted, and the target had a save to convert 2d4 MD to 6d6SDC (which happened pretty often but still cost the 40 ISP) made it much less powerful than you might think. It was still better than what it is in RAW but not by much.

That actually seems like a pretty decent modification.

Yeah the GM was pretty strict about not allowing stuff that was too unbalancing, this was not bad and was actually his own house rule from long before I ever gamed with him. It helped us make a bit more cash but it wasn't a "game changer" or "game breaker" by any means.

How often was it used against the PCs?

We only ran into 2-3 other mind-melters in our campaign and I don't remember if they used it against us or not. The only 2 in the group that were susceptible to a one shot kill were the LLW and the Mind-melter and they would have gotten saves just like anybody else. The rest of the group consisted of a Glitterboy (not susceptible to this attack by our GM's rules), a FC borg (also not susceptible and also a MDC being, so even if it had damaged him it wouldn't have been a one shot), and my toon was a TA Undead Slayer who wouldn't have been one shot due to his level of MDC.