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I know a natural 1 on 1D20 is an automatic failure when rolling to strike in combat, regardless of bonuses. But is there any text in any of the books (past or present) which declares a natural 1 an automatic failure for parries, dodges, or saving throws? Thanks for your help in this regard.

For attribute checks in most games a 1 is a effectively a critical pass. Ie. Regardless of bonuses say a snps-60 has your snps-20 character in a vise like grip. On a 1 you effectively overpowered him for a split second freeing yourself.

Palladium books only, please. And please include the book and page number. Thank you.

I don't believe there are any rules that state a natural 1 is an automatic failure regardless of bonuses for anything; strike, parry, dodge, or saving throw. At least I've never noticed the rules anywhere in the text. Though it is a very popular house rule.

Glistam wrote:I know a natural 1 on 1D20 is an automatic failure when rolling to strike in combat, regardless of bonuses. But is there any text in any of the books (past or present) which declares a natural 1 an automatic failure for parries, dodges, or saving throws? Thanks for your help in this regard.

Could you point out where it says that a Nat 1 is an auto-fail. Cause as far as I know/remember there is no text saying that the N1 is an AF.....only that a N20 is an Auto success. And that the N1 AF came from some GM's practices.

smashed wrote:I don't believe there are any rules that state a natural 1 is an automatic failure regardless of bonuses for anything; strike, parry, dodge, or saving throw. At least I've never noticed the rules anywhere in the text. Though it is a very popular house rule.

Hm. I thought for sure I saw that a "natural 1 is an automatic failure" for strike rolls, but now I can't produce it. I did however find an example of combat from page 126 of the Revised Ninjas and Superspies book where the defender rolls a 1 on the die to parry; they still add the parry bonus to the roll and compare it to the strike roll to determine "hit" or "success."

It's in R:UE. Look in the combat section. Probably under hand to hand.

Alrik Vas wrote:It's in R:UE. Look in the combat section. Probably under hand to hand.

Well if it is in RUE then it is canon for rifts when using RUE as the canon.

Please provide a more specific point in the book.

Alrik Vas wrote:It's in R:UE. Look in the combat section. Probably under hand to hand.

Are you referring to the excerpt below? I can't tell, your statement was vague.

Rifts: Ultimate Edition, page 339 wrote:STEP 2: Attacker Rolls to Strike
The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four of less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses. Any roll above a four will hit the opponent, unless the defender can parry or dodge the attack.

In every game I have played, a natural 1 is an automatic fail and I run my games accordingly. However, I can't point to anywhere in the text that it explicitly states that to be the case. :/

I'd be interested to know where it is, if it exists as a hard rule at all.

It's in R:UE page 346 under the term "MISS: A roll of 1-4 to strike (after bonuses) is always a miss. A roll of one always misses regardless of bonuses."
The house rule we use is a natural 1-4 is an automatic hit with a 1 being bad; shoot an ally, e-clip explodes, trip/fall, etc.

Thanks, prysus.

Prysus wrote:[justify]Greetings and Salutations. R:UE Combat Terms section. Can't remember the page number, ...snip

Page 346.

Prysus is correct. So if you are using RUE as your canon then a Nat 1 is an Auto-Miss.

However........it Does Not Say that it is a Critical Miss.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Prysus wrote:[justify]Greetings and Salutations. R:UE Combat Terms section. Can't remember the page number, ...snip

Page 346.

Prysus is correct. So if you are using RUE as your canon then a Nat 1 is an Auto-Miss.

However........it Does Not Say that it is a Critical Miss.

Indeed.

I'm still hoping there's some book references that can be provided regarding the roll of a 1 on 1D20 for any other reason, one way or the other. Thanks.

Prysus wrote:

Greetings and Salutations. R:UE Combat Terms section. Can't remember the page number, but left column of the left page (3rd page of combat terms I believe), around the "m" area (possibly under "miss"), near the bottom. It's a single sentence.

It does not state this for anything other than strikes. Of course, it doesn't mention a Nat 20 being an automatic success other than for strikes (only a Nat 20 can parry it, but nothing say a Nat 20 will always parry anything else).

Farewell and safe journeys for now.

Although the book doesn't outright say it, a natural 20 parry/dodge will always be successful. Logic dictates that if the only roll that can defend against a nat. 20 is another nat. 20, than a nat. 20 defense roll conquers all.

Although I only play and use Rifts books, I have not read anything about a nat. 1 (outside of a strike) being an auto-miss. Although the chance of being successful with nat. 1 are really low even with bonuses.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:if it is in RUE then it is canon for rifts when using RUE as the canon.

I admire Drew's disclaimer.

Prysus wrote:it doesn't mention a Nat 20 being an automatic success other than for strikes (only a Nat 20 can parry it, but nothing say a Nat 20 will always parry anything else).

Interesting... we have 2 white whales to page-pin folks... the nat 1 auto-fail strike and the nat 20 auto-success defense.

I kind of want to see how many main books we can find these in too, not just RUE, to see when these things go beyond house rules into canon.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:if you are using RUE as your canon then a Nat 1 is an Auto-Miss. However........it Does Not Say that it is a Critical Miss.

What would a critical miss do? Make you spend 2 attacks missing? Hit a friend? Punch yourself?

Since RUE is only for Rifts, anything in it only canonly applies to Rifts. And not all GMs do not use RUE as their canon.
-----
Crit miss...crit fail *shrugs* does not really matter which you call it.

Shoots a rifle
roll nat 1
Auto miss

Crit fail/miss would be something like "the rifle missfires/jams/magazine falls out" "bad stuff!" happens with a crit fail/miss.

As a house rule, when a 1 is rolled i have the player roll D20 again. If it's 5 or less, something bad happens. If it's over, just a miss.

I fumble it. On a 1. Bad things happen. Adds to the excitement of the game. But for attribute checks a 1 is a critical pass and a 20 is an auto fail. House rules but we been gamibg togwther for like tqenty plus years through lots of systems so again house rules apply. Like supplying beer and bacon before a game fets your character a get out of path of gms rage card. Lol

Thanks for the help everyone. I think I feel confident moving forward in my game with the rules as written that natural 1's are not automatic failures (except when playing by Rifts: Ultimate Edition rules).

Glistam wrote:Thanks for the help everyone. I think I feel confident moving forward in my game with the rules as written that natural 1's are not automatic failures (except when playing by Rifts: Ultimate Edition rules).

As long as it works for you go either way. I tend to use the n1 rule simply to deal with the "+7 I never miss" crowd. But as you pointed out its not, as far as I know, official.

But what happens if a natural 1 to strike is met by a natural 1 to dodge? Defenders still win ties?

Tor wrote:But what happens if a natural 1 to strike is met by a natural 1 to dodge? Defenders still win ties?

Higher total, plus bonuses, succeeds. Yes, defender wins ties.

Do bonuses matter though?

Am pretty sure if attacker has +3 to strike and defender has +1 to dodge that if both roll natural 20s, defender still wins even though his total would be 21, less than 23, since naturalness trumps sums.

You didn't ask about natural 20's...

Natural 20s are what we're initially used to dealing with regarding natural rolls, I'm using them as an example where they appear to exceed bonus-modified totals.

Like for example, if nothing is higher than a natural 20 then nothing is lower than a natural 1.

If bonuses don't matter when natural 20s are contested then I would think the same would apply to natural 1 faceoffs.

No, I still don't understand. If a Natural 1 is an automatic miss, then it missed. There is no parry or dodge even rolled so it never matters. If a Natural 1 is not an automatic miss, then it's no different than a Natural 2 through Natural 19. Add the bonus, and compare against the defender's roll. High number wins, ties goes to the defender.

Sometimes GMs have players declare whether or not they dodge after the strike is declared but before it is rolled, although by the rules it may be that you only are given that choice to defend yourself if the strike will successfully hit...

If playing a nat 1 to dodge as a 'critical fail' a GM might opt to say, have you dodge so badly that you would jump into the path of something which wasn't going to hit you in the first place...

Like say if I rolled a 2 or 3 to strike (a miss) but then someone had already committed to dodge and rolled a nat 1, then maybe they get hit anyway.

Tor wrote:Sometimes GMs have players declare whether or not they dodge after the strike is declared but before it is rolled, although by the rules it may be that you only are given that choice to defend yourself if the strike will successfully hit...

If playing a nat 1 to dodge as a 'critical fail' a GM might opt to say, have you dodge so badly that you would jump into the path of something which wasn't going to hit you in the first place...

Like say if I rolled a 2 or 3 to strike (a miss) but then someone had already committed to dodge and rolled a nat 1, then maybe they get hit anyway.

No.

Tor wrote:Sometimes GMs have players declare whether or not they dodge after the strike is declared but before it is rolled, although by the rules it may be that you only are given that choice to defend yourself if the strike will successfully hit...

I had a GM that ran it this way. If you were being attacked you had to decide before the strike roll if you would parry, dodge, or simul attack. I dont like running it that way but it is more realistic since you really are not going to know for sure if that incoming attack will hit or not before you decide how to defend against it.

If playing a nat 1 to dodge as a 'critical fail' a GM might opt to say, have you dodge so badly that you would jump into the path of something which wasn't going to hit you in the first place...

Like say if I rolled a 2 or 3 to strike (a miss) but then someone had already committed to dodge and rolled a nat 1, then maybe they get hit anyway.

I've never had a GM say that if you fail your dodge against a fail strike roll that you dodge into the failed strike. Is it plausible in reality? sure. Game wise thats just no fun.

I think its settled that, per RUE at least, the official rule is a 1 to strike is a failure no matter if you have +20 as a bonus. Though as Drewkitty said this is not canon for all Palladium products in my experience its very common practice to say that a 1 is a failure to strike.
Furthermore its pretty common that a 1 is a fumble and bad stuff happens.

Here is my version of the fumble chart. Roll a D20 no modifiers.

1 = you get injured somehow (backfire, slip and cut yourself, etc) roll normal damage
2 = Friendly fire. You shot/cut/stabbed etc. your buddy, roll normal damage
3 = same as 1 but half damage
4 = same as 2 but half damage
5 to 9 = your weapon jams/slips from your grasp, you lose initiative AND an action to clear the jam/pick it up.
10 to 14 = same as 5-9 but you only lose initiative (not too bad you just go last for the rest of the round)
15 to 19 = you luck out and nothing bad happens,
20 = Partial save! You miss your intended target but hit another bad guy! (or if no other bad guys around your shot grazes the intended target and does half damage)

Thinyser wrote:never had a GM say that if you fail your dodge against a fail strike roll that you dodge into the failed strike. Is it plausible in reality? sure. Game wise thats just no fun.

Natural 1s aren't supposed to be fun, they're the inverse of natural 20 fun.

Of course, if the opponents rolled natural 1s and your misses hit, that would definately be a fun rule to incorporate.

Locked per OP request.