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Greetings All,

My guess is Swarm-Selves effects psionic abilities like everything else except I don't know about ISP. How does it get divided? Equally?

Is Magic effected the same way? How is PPE divided? Does it effect spells the same way? What about a spell like Annihilate? (because obviously my players weren't frightened enough when I told them Cronus was free again. ).

There is no Text about the mystic energies and if they are split or the clones are full up when made. Anything Anyone says other then there is not text covering the mystic energies is stating their own opinions, not canon.

They may cite the text about how the clone is fully healthy. This does not cover PPE or ISP in the least...it just says they are healthy. The only mystic energy it might cover is Chi, because there is a direct link in the health of the char and their chi.

Thank you drewkitty. I was hoping it was addressed in a Rifter or there was something comparable to it (such as an update to Multiple Beings/Selves that might give some insight if not answers).

Many arg...discussions have been made on this issue because of the lack of specific text on the subject.

Part of the Reason it is not covered in the HU text is because the text of the whole book is written with the understanding that "There can only be One" power cat chosen. As such since a char with super powers can't have 'magic' nor can they have 'psionics', PPE and ISP were just not covered.

I know multiple selves gives full ppe/isp but doesnt swarm selves create like a bunch of little bug You's??

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:the text of the whole book is written with the understanding that "There can only be One" power cat chosen. As such since a char with super powers can't have 'magic' nor can they have 'psionics', PPE and ISP were just not covered.

Except that some Mutants can have both powers + psi, and some Mystic Bestowed can have both power + magic. So they really should've taken it into account.

Yupyup multiple selves and 8 spells chosen from levels 1-5. I used this guy as a ppe battery/henchmen.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no Text about the mystic energies and if they are split or the clones are full up when made. Anything Anyone says other then there is not text covering the mystic energies is stating their own opinions, not canon.

They may cite the text about how the clone is fully healthy. This does not cover PPE or ISP in the least...it just says they are healthy. The only mystic energy it might cover is Chi, because there is a direct link in the health of the char and their chi.

ERrm....was a bit tried from going to a convention so misunderstood which power was being talked about and gave the what the text says about the Multiple Selves power has about whether or not the clones/other-selves have of PPE & ISP.

So, contrary to say652 misunderstandings, there is no text in Multiple Selves that says anything about the clones getting ANY PPE or ISP.

Tor...You might look At What I Said better. And try to understand how totally off the mark your comments are. Trying to bring up something that is totally not addressing what "I" said.
While yes there is A power cat where such text would be helpful....said text does not exist in the published text of the MS power.

The ONLY thing it says is that they are Healthy in the multiple selves power. Totally no mention of PPE and ISP In The Power.
That is It.

So if you say otherwise it is just your house rules that you are saying.
-------------------
Swam-selves power.
Again There is no Text covering PPE or ISP in any specifics. So anything anyone says otherwise is their house rules about how the power interacts with PPE and ISP.
There is not even any text saying the mini-me's are healthy for people to make their interpretations from.

Since multiple selves creates an exact duplicate it is understood if I can cast spells, so can my duplicate.

Swarm selves is a different animal all together, your dividing your self NOT creating another you.

say652 wrote:Since multiple selves creates an exact duplicate it is understood if I can cast spells, so can my duplicate.
...snip

The text does not say if they get any ISP or PPE "when created". Only that they are 'healthy'. (Yes, I did mention that I was talking about when they are made in my 1st post.)

It does not even say if the original gets the clone's PPE/ISP if absorbed back into the original self. Another thing the canon text does not cover.

"All duplicates posess the exact same skills powers and abilities as the original"

Condensed write up from page 282.
Magic is an ability. But this thread is about swarm selves.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You might look At What I Said better.
And try to understand how totally off the mark your comments are.
Trying to bring up something that is totally not addressing what "I" said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you said this:

a char with super powers can't have 'magic'

HU2p156 disagrees, look at 51-70 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and spells, as say562 already said.

nor can they have 'psionics

HU2p161 disagrees, look at 66-75 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and psionics.
On 81-90 it is also possible at 4th level to have 1 Major super ability and 1 Super psionic power.
The table on page 226 also allows psionics and super abilities if you roll from 86-00.

But Tor.
We both are using Heroes Unlimited rules in Rifts. And according to cb1 Drewkitty is correct. But according to heroes unlimited we are correct. It is a rifts thread so in effect we ARE actually in the wrong but with the ever fluctuating conversion rules. ....
At best we are all correct and all wrong at the same time.
Cb1=Drewkitty correct.
Heroes Unlimited=we are correct.
Rifts thread=Drewkitty is correct because without an updated conversion book. The are no canon rules for a super other than no magic or psionics.

I would say that the individual swarmlings can use any spells/talents/skills/whatever of the creator.
BUT I would also say that the PPE/ISP is divided up equally to each swarmling. So if you have 20 swarmlings, and 300 PPE. then they each have 15 PPE.

eliakon wrote:I would say that the individual swarmlings can use any spells/talents/skills/whatever of the creator.
BUT I would also say that the PPE/ISP is divided up equally to each swarmling. So if you have 20 swarmlings, and 300 PPE. then they each have 15 PPE.

This seems reasonable.

Also one could give them each 25% of the total which is what happens to any other super powers they possess. One could argue that their magic or psionic ability is a "super power category" and thus is a "super power" subject to the 75% shrinkage of power as all other super abilities.

I could go either way. But I would probably give them whichever works out to be larger. Its not a very powerful ability for a major power.

Add in disruptive touch.
Whats 25% of a death touch??

say652 wrote:Add in disruptive touch.
Whats 25% of a death touch??

1/4 dead.

subtract 1/4 HP off of whatever is left of HP. 100-25=75, 75-18=57, 57-14=43 Etc. Then once whittled down to 1HP the next death touch would send them into a coma.

6D6/4 damage.
Save vs coma death save 15 or higher or die.
+12% save vs coma/death.
I asked because I already did the math

say652 wrote:6D6/4 damage.
Save vs coma death save 15 or higher or die.
+12% save vs coma/death.
I asked because I already did the math

What? you mean death touch doesn't just kill?!?!

EDIT: Woah after reading that power its pretty nasty. Take 6d6 (to HP? or to SDC?) Save vs 15 if you fail that you go into a coma then save vs coma with a bonus +10 or you die. Better hope you have a high PE.

I havent played HU (ever actually ) and its been a long time since I looked through all the powers for fun.

I love it. I started with Rifts but for my play style H.U. fits a lot better. Even then my creativity I still draw ideas from other settings.

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You might look At What I Said better.
And try to understand how totally off the mark your comments are.
Trying to bring up something that is totally not addressing what "I" said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you said this:

a char with super powers can't have 'magic'

HU2p156 disagrees, look at 51-70 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and spells, as say562 already said.

nor can they have 'psionics

HU2p161 disagrees, look at 66-75 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and psionics.
On 81-90 it is also possible at 4th level to have 1 Major super ability and 1 Super psionic power.
The table on page 226 also allows psionics and super abilities if you roll from 86-00.

I will quote myself that WHOLE paragraph.

Part of the Reason it is not covered in the HU text is because the text of the whole book is written with the understanding that "There can only be One" power cat chosen. As such since a char with super powers can't have 'magic' nor can they have 'psionics', PPE and ISP were just not covered.

Taken as a whole there is no misunderstanding since the context of the selective quotes of yours come to what I meant that "The powers are written as if the powers are not mixed with magic or Psionic abilities."


Thank you for misquoting me by cherry picking things out of context....

And since I DID NOT SAY that were no power cats that mixed super powers and magic/psi abilities, I do not see Why You Said Anything At All. All you have done is call attention That I did what I should of done, ask you to reread what I actually said.

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say652 wrote:"All duplicates possess the exact same skills powers and abilities as the original"

Condensed write up from page 282.
Magic is an ability. But this thread is about swarm selves.

If you note what I said is that the text does not cover whether or not the clones or mini-me's are created "Charged" with PPE or ISP "When Created".

What I am NOT talking about is whether or not they "possess the exact same skills powers and abilities as the original". There is no argument about words You are actually saying.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:You might look At What I Said better.
And try to understand how totally off the mark your comments are.
Trying to bring up something that is totally not addressing what "I" said.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you said this:

a char with super powers can't have 'magic'

HU2p156 disagrees, look at 51-70 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and spells, as say562 already said.

nor can they have 'psionics

HU2p161 disagrees, look at 66-75 on the table, you can get Multiple Selves and psionics.
On 81-90 it is also possible at 4th level to have 1 Major super ability and 1 Super psionic power.
The table on page 226 also allows psionics and super abilities if you roll from 86-00.

I will quote myself that WHOLE paragraph.

Part of the Reason it is not covered in the HU text is because the text of the whole book is written with the understanding that "There can only be One" power cat chosen. As such since a char with super powers can't have 'magic' nor can they have 'psionics', PPE and ISP were just not covered.

Taken as a whole there is no misunderstanding since the context of the selective quotes of yours come to what I meant that "The powers are written as if the powers are not mixed with magic or Psionic abilities."


Thank you for misquoting me by cherry picking things out of context....

Just curious but how is saying "a char with super powers can't have 'magic' nor can they have 'psionics" not clear? If you say that they can't have something, and the books actually say they can....then wouldn't it be in the best interests to correct the error and make it clear that there are book legal ways to have super powers and psionics and/or magic? Especially since the HU2 base book as a way for you to have super powers and psi on the base tables.

Because it was taken out of the context of what I had just said in the 1st sentence of the paragraph they are from.

I also pointed out. In rifts cb1=drewkitty correct
In heroes unlimited=say652 correct.

Classic case of situationally dictated response.

say652 wrote:But Tor. We both are using Heroes Unlimited rules in Rifts.

Far as I can tell you're the first in this thread to mention Rifts. Or should I have assumed this was Rifts-specific because Greeter mentioned Annihilate+Cronus?

say652 wrote:And according to cb1 Drewkitty is correct.

CB1 actually prevents you from STARTING with magic/psionics along w/ super abilities. Not exactly anything stopping you from switching OCCs and getting them later.

say652 wrote:It is a rifts thread

I don't think that was explicitly stated.

say652 wrote:Rifts thread=Drewkitty is correct because without an updated conversion book. The are no canon rules for a super other than no magic or psionics.

Skraypers is a Dimension Book for Rifts and it allows both.

Greeter wrote:Greetings All,

My guess is Swarm-Selves effects psionic abilities like everything else except I don't know about ISP. How does it get divided? Equally?

Is Magic effected the same way? How is PPE divided? Does it effect spells the same way? What about a spell like Annihilate? (because obviously my players weren't frightened enough when I told them Cronus was free again. ).

All hard questions to answer. Given that each mini-self has its own (tiny) H.P.and S.D.C., we might infer that each also has its own diminished P.P.E. and I.S.P. base, thus rendering some spells/psionics too expensive to use. Then again, because of the hive mind, it is also possible that all the mini-selves may be able to draw on a single pool of P.P.E./I.S.P. equal to the character's un-swarmed amounts.

Another problem is that I have never seen any rule that spell/psionic effects scale to the size of the caster. Faeries and alien intelligences cast spells with the same physical dimensions (relative to experience level), and a giant's psi-sword inflicts the same damage as a dwarf's. Reducing spells and psionics to one-quarter effect would be consistent with the rule for super powers, but doesn't make much sense on its own.

Thank you to the group for some great insights.

say652 wrote:I also pointed out. In rifts cb1=drewkitty correct
In heroes unlimited=say652 correct.

Classic case of situationally dictated response.

As I pointed out say, we were talking about two different things as such we are both correct in both places.