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Morbid topic, I know.

Suicide is a controversial subject. I would like to preface this post by saying I am asking about the game mechanics of handling the following scenarios. NOT about the morality, or personal feelings on the subject of suicide. That is a discussion for another place at another time.

Now, moving on.
In some cultures past (and some would argue present) the honorable suicide is not uncommon, especially among warrior types. To this day the phrase "fall on your/my sword" is used when describing self sacrifice for the presumed greater good (or when joking about such).

Many PCs are warrior types. So how would you handle the mechanics of character Suicide?
I mean, mechanically, your average Grackletooth stabbed themselves with a vibrosword numerous times in order to die, and they may pass out before dying.
Does Suicide get a pass on normal damage rules? Insta-Death?

If so does that apply to only honourable suicides or other suicides?

If you allow suicide to bypass normal damage rules what about staged suicide, or assisted suicide?

This has come up in my games from time to time.

Usually it is the noble sacrifice to save the rest of the group by leading the bad guys away, or suiciding with a vehicle filled with explosives into something.

Now, I did have a situation where a truely good character was turned evil and it caused him to go nuts and commit suicide.

Now, on to the question of can an MDC juggernaut commit suicide without having to do something like jump into a volcano or eat a few fusion blocks. For purely cinematic fact, I would usually allow a PC to commit suicide as they are allowing their own defenses to lapse.

The only exception would be if their own body had some way, for example they had symbiotis or something.

My wife is an ER nurse who sees suicide attempts fail on a regular basis.

If a character wants to do it I would allow the attempt but I would make them roll to strike (probably with a straight die roll since they have no experience in attacking their own person.)

Then if successful I would resurrect them, explain that they were reborn free from the sins of their past.

While there are probably many ways to do it successfully a nearly surefire way to do it would be to consume lots of poison and then curl around a fusion block or grenade. Just like a firecracker in a fist can blow the hand to shreds while one on a open hand can leave a wicked bruise and sometimes a bad laceration it won't usually blow the hand apart, an explosive that you physically curl your body around will do much more damage than one say at ones feet or at arms length. And if you somehow survive that the poison in your system will finish the job.

Never had a character want to commit suicide other than to save the group from destruction.

Thinyser wrote:My wife is an ER nurse who sees suicide attempts fail on a regular basis.

If a character wants to do it I would allow the attempt but I would make them roll to strike (probably with a straight die roll since they have no experience in attacking their own person.)

Then if successful I would resurrect them, explain that they were reborn free from the sins of their past.

While there are probably many ways to do it successfully a nearly surefire way to do it would be to consume lots of poison and then curl around a fusion block or grenade. Just like a firecracker in a fist can blow the hand to shreds while one on a open hand can leave a wicked bruise and sometimes a bad laceration it won't usually blow the hand apart, an explosive that you physically curl your body around will do much more damage than one say at ones feet or at arms length. And if you somehow survive that the poison in your system will finish the job.

Never had a character want to commit suicide other than to save the group from destruction.

Ok, the strike roll makes sense, I can see that.

I am not sure how the auto-resurrection plays into the mechanics. Is there some precedent I am unaware of for this?

And yes, there are other ways, but for the most part the common 'honorable' suicide ways dont match up with mechanics, that is why I posed the question.

I allow heroic sacrifice. Charging the approaching Demon so your friends can escape etc. But nit straight up end self. No. Imo its a ploy to make a new character. I'm also kind of a beesh though and always suspect treachery-_-

say652 wrote:I allow heroic sacrifice. Charging the approaching Demon so your friends can escape etc. But nit straight up end self. No. Imo its a ploy to make a new character. I'm also kind of a beesh though and always suspect treachery-_-

If one grows dissatisfied or unhappy with a character why shouldnt one have the opportunity to make a new one?
Although granted suicide for such a reason seems... suspicious. No reason one cant ride off into the sunset/sunrise/night/etc.

13eowulf wrote:

Thinyser wrote:My wife is an ER nurse who sees suicide attempts fail on a regular basis.

If a character wants to do it I would allow the attempt but I would make them roll to strike (probably with a straight die roll since they have no experience in attacking their own person.)

Then if successful I would resurrect them, explain that they were reborn free from the sins of their past.

While there are probably many ways to do it successfully a nearly surefire way to do it would be to consume lots of poison and then curl around a fusion block or grenade. Just like a firecracker in a fist can blow the hand to shreds while one on a open hand can leave a wicked bruise and sometimes a bad laceration it won't usually blow the hand apart, an explosive that you physically curl your body around will do much more damage than one say at ones feet or at arms length. And if you somehow survive that the poison in your system will finish the job.

Never had a character want to commit suicide other than to save the group from destruction.

Ok, the strike roll makes sense, I can see that.

I am not sure how the auto-resurrection plays into the mechanics. Is there some precedent I am unaware of for this?

And yes, there are other ways, but for the most part the common 'honorable' suicide ways dont match up with mechanics, that is why I posed the question.

I would use in game methods of resurrection. Clerics, Wiz spell, etc.

Yeah its pretty hard to kill yourself with a single slash of a blade or stab of a sword.

Thinyser wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

Thinyser wrote:My wife is an ER nurse who sees suicide attempts fail on a regular basis.

If a character wants to do it I would allow the attempt but I would make them roll to strike (probably with a straight die roll since they have no experience in attacking their own person.)

Then if successful I would resurrect them, explain that they were reborn free from the sins of their past.

While there are probably many ways to do it successfully a nearly surefire way to do it would be to consume lots of poison and then curl around a fusion block or grenade. Just like a firecracker in a fist can blow the hand to shreds while one on a open hand can leave a wicked bruise and sometimes a bad laceration it won't usually blow the hand apart, an explosive that you physically curl your body around will do much more damage than one say at ones feet or at arms length. And if you somehow survive that the poison in your system will finish the job.

Never had a character want to commit suicide other than to save the group from destruction.

Ok, the strike roll makes sense, I can see that.

I am not sure how the auto-resurrection plays into the mechanics. Is there some precedent I am unaware of for this?

And yes, there are other ways, but for the most part the common 'honorable' suicide ways dont match up with mechanics, that is why I posed the question.

I would use in game methods of resurrection. Clerics, Wiz spell, etc.

Yeah its pretty hard to kill yourself with a single slash of a blade or stab of a sword.

I am still not understanding why suicide comes with a free resurrection.

13eowulf wrote:I am still not understanding why suicide comes with a free resurrection.

Because as a GM I don't want to spend hours making up a new character along with the player

As GM its up to you to allow seppuku or not. If you do I would say the bloodloss rules would be your friend.

13eowulf wrote:So how would you handle the mechanics of character Suicide?
I mean, mechanically, your average Grackletooth stabbed themselves with a vibrosword numerous times in order to die, and they may pass out before dying.
Does Suicide get a pass on normal damage rules? Insta-Death?

If so does that apply to only honourable suicides or other suicides?

If you allow suicide to bypass normal damage rules what about staged suicide, or assisted suicide?

I think stabbing/slashing oneself with a weapon would be technically equivalent to a Death Blow, possibly without the usual high target number for success. Jumping off a cliff would follow the rules for fall damage.

If the character's death is a meaningful act of self-sacrifice, it may be reasonable to make death immediate and automatic, so as not to bog down gameplay ("Oops, you missed the artery by a millimeter. Better try again...").

13eowulf wrote:Morbid topic, I know.

Suicide is a controversial subject. I would like to preface this post by saying I am asking about the game mechanics of handling the following scenarios. NOT about the morality, or personal feelings on the subject of suicide. That is a discussion for another place at another time.

Now, moving on.
In some cultures past (and some would argue present) the honorable suicide is not uncommon, especially among warrior types. To this day the phrase "fall on your/my sword" is used when describing self sacrifice for the presumed greater good (or when joking about such).

Many PCs are warrior types. So how would you handle the mechanics of character Suicide?
I mean, mechanically, your average Grackletooth stabbed themselves with a vibrosword numerous times in order to die, and they may pass out before dying.
Does Suicide get a pass on normal damage rules? Insta-Death?

If so does that apply to only honourable suicides or other suicides?

If you allow suicide to bypass normal damage rules what about staged suicide, or assisted suicide?

It'd be like killing a sacrifice - auto-kill.

The Beast wrote:
It'd be like killing a sacrifice - auto-kill.

Where are the mechanics for sacrifices?

Thinyser wrote:

The Beast wrote:
It'd be like killing a sacrifice - auto-kill.

Where are the mechanics for sacrifices?

It'll take some time for me to find it, but we found it during a topic here about vampires, IIRC.

The Beast wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

The Beast wrote:
It'd be like killing a sacrifice - auto-kill.

Where are the mechanics for sacrifices?

It'll take some time for me to find it, but we found it during a topic here about vampires, IIRC.

I believe there is a statement in vamp kingdoms that says you don't have to roll to stake a sleeping vamp. Not technically a sacrifice. I hope you find something other than this reference.

I would fight tooth and nail if I were about to be sacrificed so I wonder why it would be an automatic kill if the person was awake and able to struggle... now if they were unconscious via knockout or drugs that's another story.

If awake the only way I would allow an autokill is to make it be part of a ritual where the sacrifice was held down by at least 4 others with a combined strength of at least 6 times the sacrifice. I've seen 100lb women struggle so hard it took 6 large men to hold them still enough for a nurse to give them a shot in the thigh w/o a high likelihood of breaking the needle off due to her struggles (I was one of the men). Adrenalin can do some craaaaazy stuff.

If no ritual and physical subdual or drug induced unconsciousness is needed I'm yelling "I sacrifice you to <enter deity here> !!!" every time I try to kill somebody! No roll to strike and I kill them automatically!

say652 wrote: its a ploy to make a new character.

That's how I'm doing it. I have a PC (coypu mutants in avalon) that was rolled raw and..that I have no connection to. He runs headlong into battle/danger (most of the time). I'm not straight up trying to get him killed, but I'm not trying very hard to keep him from death either.

13eowulf wrote:Does Suicide get a pass on normal damage rules? Insta-Death?

If so does that apply to only honourable suicides or other suicides?

If you allow suicide to bypass normal damage rules what about staged suicide, or assisted suicide?

I was wondering, was there a larger scenario which this took place? You speak of honorable suicide, similar Japanese seppuku. Is there more? Was this in the scope of the role-playing? Was it a player trying to tweak the system so they could get a new character?

There is a point blank head and heart table on page 37 of the GMG which would apply. Rolling on that is kind of survivable for the most part but a roll of 71 or higher would usually result in death.
Also it comes with this disclaimer: "Depending on the situation, the victim of a point-blank attack may be automatically killed too. But this is left up to the Game Master's discretion."
So basically, if he wants to die and you don't want to force him to stay alive, just let him die.

I wouldn't worry about damage and just allow for an automatic death. The character would be using their knowledge of their own body (relative to species) to inflict the maximum amount of harm with the least effort. The biggest barrier would be in overcoming themselves to actually follow through on the act. In this instance, I would enforce a basic challenge to the act like a save vs. horror factor if using a firearm or a save vs. pain if using a melee weapon.

Thinyser wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

The Beast wrote:
It'd be like killing a sacrifice - auto-kill.

Where are the mechanics for sacrifices?

It'll take some time for me to find it, but we found it during a topic here about vampires, IIRC.

I believe there is a statement in vamp kingdoms that says you don't have to roll to stake a sleeping vamp. Not technically a sacrifice. I hope you find something other than this reference.

I would fight tooth and nail if I were about to be sacrificed so I wonder why it would be an automatic kill if the person was awake and able to struggle... now if they were unconscious via knockout or drugs that's another story.

If awake the only way I would allow an autokill is to make it be part of a ritual where the sacrifice was held down by at least 4 others with a combined strength of at least 6 times the sacrifice. I've seen 100lb women struggle so hard it took 6 large men to hold them still enough for a nurse to give them a shot in the thigh w/o a high likelihood of breaking the needle off due to her struggles (I was one of the men). Adrenalin can do some craaaaazy stuff.

If no ritual and physical subdual or drug induced unconsciousness is needed I'm yelling "I sacrifice you to <enter deity here> !!!" every time I try to kill somebody! No roll to strike and I kill them automatically!

No, they had to be incapacitated, and thus unable to defend themselves, in someway.

I've seen it four times in a game, three suicides and one attempted suicide.

The first, the character was in such bad shape after an explosion that while we could have fixed him, the player said "heck with it, let's try playing a ghost". Think Bob from Dresden Files.

The second was my game, the player came up with a concept but missed the first few games. When he finally attended, he wanted to start fresh, and asked me to kill off his character any way I wanted so that he could bring in a relative. He wanted a personality blank slate to work with, and even though his character was rarely "seen", he was concerned that he wouldn't have that blank slate.

Third time, a brand new player simply wanted to change characters. He tried one just to learn the rules and found something he'd rather have. As GM, I tried to talk him into a "ride off into the sunset" solution, but he wanted the character dead. He wanted his new character to kill his old character, but I flat out said no to that as I knew there would be no way that the other players, playing in character, would accept the new character if that happened.

The fourth time, the character was a robot and the player was very good at using every advantage and the GM got frustrated and used nanites to start turning the character into a plain jane ordinary human. The player announced that the character would overload his power core and started counting down. The GM backed down, the nanites were disabled and the player got to keep his character.

Personally, I try to talk players into letting their characters "fade away" as that way they can be brought back later if the player changes his or her mind. But if they are determined to make it final, I'm not going to forbid it.

If a player is having their character commit suicide because they want to change characters, i would just have them do it and it works. There's no point in leaving it up to rolls and having it fail, forcing the player to have to roleplay the character they don't even want to play anymore while they're dealing with a failed suicide attempt. That's just too much real life bummer.

Alrik Vas wrote:If a player is having their character commit suicide because they want to change characters, i would just have them do it and it works. There's no point in leaving it up to rolls and having it fail, forcing the player to have to roleplay the character they don't even want to play anymore while they're dealing with a failed suicide attempt. That's just too much real life bummer.

I feel its suitable punishment for a player that wants an "easy" way out of their character. Unless you are terminally ill suicide is not an acceptable way out of life (if you have lost a friend or loved one to suicide you know this to be true), and I don't accept it as a way out of your character either.

If you cannot stand your character and simply can't have fun with it then talk to your GM! Find out what will work as a new character (for both you as the player to have fun and will fit in the game as the GM), figure out a plan to introduce a new character into the group and to remove the old PC. There are many many ways this can be accomplished w/o suicide.

Seppuku or "honor suicide" is different, and as I said if the player was doing it because he wants to play in character and really believes the character truly would do this to maintain his honor I would (try) to resurrect him (if the player did not object to playing the "reborn" character).

If a player doesn't want to play their character anymore, just make the character an NPC and let them start a new character.

If they want a "fitting end" for their character (whatever that means to them) and the GM can accommodate them without unduly delaying or derailing the game, I happen to think it's a nice gesture. It helps reinforce the idea that players and GM are cooperatively building the story rather than being adversaries in the endeavor.

--flatline

Thinyser wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:If a player is having their character commit suicide because they want to change characters, i would just have them do it and it works. There's no point in leaving it up to rolls and having it fail, forcing the player to have to roleplay the character they don't even want to play anymore while they're dealing with a failed suicide attempt. That's just too much real life bummer.

I feel its suitable punishment for a player that wants an "easy" way out of their character. Unless you are terminally ill suicide is not an acceptable way out of life (if you have lost a friend or loved one to suicide you know this to be true), and I don't accept it as a way out of your character either.

If you cannot stand your character and simply can't have fun with it then talk to your GM! Find out what will work as a new character (for both you as the player to have fun and will fit in the game as the GM), figure out a plan to introduce a new character into the group and to remove the old PC. There are many many ways this can be accomplished w/o suicide.

Seppuku or "honor suicide" is different, and as I said if the player was doing it because he wants to play in character and really believes the character truly would do this to maintain his honor I would (try) to resurrect him (if the player did not object to playing the "reborn" character).

flatline wrote:If a player doesn't want to play their character anymore, just make the character an NPC and let them start a new character.

If they want a "fitting end" for their character (whatever that means to them) and the GM can accommodate them without unduly delaying or derailing the game, I happen to think it's a nice gesture. It helps reinforce the idea that players and GM are cooperatively building the story rather than being adversaries in the endeavor.

-dost

I don't know how I wrote what I wrote without conveying these thoughts. I guess i took it as a given that there would be precendent in the story for it. Working it out with the player above board is paramount and there shouldn't be a random suicide just because. Sorry if my statement was taken that way.

But, Thinyser, I'm really confused on your resurrect and reborn thing. What would bringing the character back to life do if they didn't want to live? I mean, most people change characters because they're sick of playing them. I think i'm not understanding part of your intention.

Alrik Vas wrote:But, Thinyser, I'm really confused on your resurrect and reborn thing. What would bringing the character back to life do if they didn't want to live? I mean, most people change characters because they're sick of playing them. I think i'm not understanding part of your intention.

Ok so if you reread that you'll note I said that only about Seppuku or "honor suicide", which is much different than saying "I don't like my toon so I'm gonna have him off himself".

For example say a character has been "dishonored" and the player really does like his character but believes that his character's code would require an "honor suicide". If said player wanted to continue playing that character I would try to resurrect him and make it so that he could believe that his ritual suicide had expunged his dishonor and that this 2nd chance was a blessing granted and should not be squandered.

Thinyser wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:But, Thinyser, I'm really confused on your resurrect and reborn thing. What would bringing the character back to life do if they didn't want to live? I mean, most people change characters because they're sick of playing them. I think i'm not understanding part of your intention.

Ok so if you reread that you'll note I said that only about Seppuku or "honor suicide", which is much different than saying "I don't like my toon so I'm gonna have him off himself".

For example say a character has been "dishonored" and the player really does like his character but believes that his character's code would require an "honor suicide". If said player wanted to continue playing that character I would try to resurrect him and make it so that he could believe that his ritual suicide had expunged his dishonor and that this 2nd chance was a blessing granted and should not be squandered.

If the player doesnt necessarily want a new PC, but is doing it in-character, and it isnt honor based?

Granted I originally asked about mechanics, but many have brought up motives, in and out of character motives.
If the motives are not 'I want a new character', but are more in-character, even if not honor based, I dont see why (or how) it can or should be blocked.

13eowulf wrote:

Thinyser wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:But, Thinyser, I'm really confused on your resurrect and reborn thing. What would bringing the character back to life do if they didn't want to live? I mean, most people change characters because they're sick of playing them. I think i'm not understanding part of your intention.

Ok so if you reread that you'll note I said that only about Seppuku or "honor suicide", which is much different than saying "I don't like my toon so I'm gonna have him off himself".

For example say a character has been "dishonored" and the player really does like his character but believes that his character's code would require an "honor suicide". If said player wanted to continue playing that character I would try to resurrect him and make it so that he could believe that his ritual suicide had expunged his dishonor and that this 2nd chance was a blessing granted and should not be squandered.

If the player doesnt necessarily want a new PC, but is doing it in-character, and it isnt honor based?

Granted I originally asked about mechanics, but many have brought up motives, in and out of character motives.
If the motives are not 'I want a new character', but are more in-character, even if not honor based, I dont see why (or how) it can or should be blocked.

I wouldn't stop them (the character) and if the player was ok with continuing with the character (and we could work out a way that they wouldn't need to keep trying to kill himself) I would find a way to rez him.

That said, even serious suicide attempts are never a guaranteed success. Admittedly most fail because they were never intended to succeed and are really a cry for help. Many who try (seriously try) and fail, end up alive but crippled by either brain damage or other physical problems caused by the wounds they caused in the attempt. I've met people who put a gun to their head and pulled the trigger, and all they did was blow their eyes out of their skull and wind up blind, disfigure, and in the mental hospital (that I worked at long ago). I've met people at that same hospital that had one hand that was nearly useless because they sliced through all their tendons trying to cut their wrist. My mom who was a nurse at the same mental hospital was in the room with a patient as they twisted a soda can in half and used the sharp edge to slit their throat. He nicked the artery and the blood squirted 8 feet onto the far wall. The staff rushed him and were able to stem the flow enough to transport him to the ER and he survived but with moderate brain damage due to blood loss and not enough oxygen to his brain for too long.

I don't think mechanics wise suicide should be a sure thing in most circumstances, humans have a very strong will to live and will sabotage themselves when it comes to protecting that life. A last second twitch of the muscles sends the knife a little off the ideal mark, or pulls the gun a bit too far forward and you just blast out your eyes, the nervousness of what you're doing churns your stomach and makes you puke up all the pills you just took, etc.

To each their own though. If you want to allow players to instakill their characters thats fine.

And now I am gonna request this thread be locked.

I tried to keep the motive discussion to in-character.
I only wanted to discuss game mechanics.

Discussing personal feelings/experiences is something I explicitly wanted to avoid. No good can come of that and this subject.
Yes I fee it is possible to discuss the mechanics and character motives without discussing personal feelings/experiences.