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TMNT and Mystic China both list Shredder and Liang Hsung Armor as WP...

Wouldn't this mean you could make indestructible armor via even the simple weapon tattoo?

It would match the knight power tattoo for duration, for far less PPE, and you wouldn't have to worry about it being depleted.

On the other hand: summoning armor may just means it appears in your hands (probably causing you to drop it) or at your feet and you'd need to spend time putting it on. Plus there are encumbrance penalties (prowl/speed) and the indestructible armor could by bypassed by rolling over the AR, things you don't worry about with the armor tattoo since it always gets hit first, is noiseless/unencumbering.

Another issue would be that wearing Simple Weapon Armor would prevent tattoo activation, it doesn't have the benefit of allowing your hand to pass through like the Power Tattoo does.

Other interesting uses of simple weapons: you could summon a net that people could not cut free of, a grappling hook that would never break no matter how heavy a person climbed it, a giant statue to dress up and make someone think was a person...or drop from high altitudes or weigh someone down so they drown...

Any other interesting odd weapons that would make interesting tats and exploit the indestructibility?

Tor wrote:TMNT and Mystic China both list Shredder and Liang Hsung Armor as WP...

Wouldn't this mean you could make indestructible armor via even the simple weapon tattoo?

It would match the knight power tattoo for duration, for far less PPE, and you wouldn't have to worry about it being depleted.

On the other hand: summoning armor may just means it appears in your hands (probably causing you to drop it) or at your feet and you'd need to spend time putting it on. Plus there are encumbrance penalties (prowl/speed) and the indestructible armor could by bypassed by rolling over the AR, things you don't worry about with the armor tattoo since it always gets hit first, is noiseless/unencumbering.

Another issue would be that wearing Simple Weapon Armor would prevent tattoo activation, it doesn't have the benefit of allowing your hand to pass through like the Power Tattoo does.

Other interesting uses of simple weapons: you could summon a net that people could not cut free of, a grappling hook that would never break no matter how heavy a person climbed it, a giant statue to dress up and make someone think was a person...or drop from high altitudes or weigh someone down so they drown...

Any other interesting odd weapons that would make interesting tats and exploit the indestructibility?

I would say that the Armor is more like the shield (and thus has SDC) rather than a true weapon. And yes I know there is a W.P. for the armors, there is a W.P. for shields and they aren't indestructible either. A Flaming Armor though...I would, personally, make it have an AR...roll below you hit the armor (infinite durability) above you hit the person.

Tor wrote:TMNT and Mystic China both list Shredder and Liang Hsung Armor as WP...

Wouldn't this mean you could make indestructible armor via even the simple weapon tattoo?

Yes.

We have a distinct shield tat but no distinct Shredder/Hsung tat so I wouldn't know what SDC to give it.

Tor wrote:We have a distinct shield tat but no distinct Shredder/Hsung tat so I wouldn't know what SDC to give it.

My personal quickie would give it the same SDC, PPE, Duration as the shield tattoos

eliakon wrote:

Tor wrote:We have a distinct shield tat but no distinct Shredder/Hsung tat so I wouldn't know what SDC to give it.

My personal quickie would give it the same SDC, PPE, Duration as the shield tattoos

That might work if you allowed a Shield Tattoo to be in the form of armor.
But it's not- it's armor.

It's also technically a weapon, with specific kinds of armor. Which means that you could make a weapon tattoo of it.
Since weapon tattoos created indestructible weapons, the armor would be indestructible. It wouldn't have any SDC.

Come to think of it, is there anything actually preventing shields (since they can be weapons) being made via "All Simple Weapons" instead of "SDC Shield".

Same duration, indestructible, half the PPE. On the downside, you would not get that sweet +1 to parry bonus.

Also wondering, the AR that the SDC shield gets, is that a natural AR or something?

Tor wrote:Come to think of it, is there anything actually preventing shields (since they can be weapons) being made via "All Simple Weapons" instead of "SDC Shield".

GM's decision, but no, shields can be technically considered weapons, IIRC.

The trick is to apply common sense. Simply having an associated W.P. doesn't turn something into a weapon, otherwise by using Mystic China's W.P. Weapon Improvisation, you could literally have a tattoo of anything you like which is pretty absurd - I can assure you that no sane GM would ever allow it.
The same applies to armor. A GM probably would allow you to summon the forearm bracers and shoulder pads of Shredder which hold the spikes he uses to assist him in melee combat but you aren't getting a full suit of armor. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? There are Dogboy and Juicer armors with spikes attached to them too so woohoo, I guess you can avoid the A.R. issue and walk around invulnerable... Many Power Armors have forearm blades so I guess you could create them too because part of them is a weapon or better yet, design yourself a suit of Splicer style Bio-Armor that has every upgrade available - Bio-E shouldn't be a limit if you are summoning something into existence and as long as at least part of the object is considered a simple weapon, it should be fine right?

Dog pack spikes are separate from the armor.
I don't recall a weapon proficiency for juicer armor.

Giant2005 wrote:The trick is to apply common sense.

Common sense lets us determine author intentions, but this is having fun with the RAW.

Giant2005 wrote:Simply having an associated W.P. doesn't turn something into a weapon

Sure it does. Do you oppose the idea of a crowbar tattoo? But would 'wooden club' tattoo be okay?

Giant2005 wrote:otherwise by using Mystic China's W.P. Weapon Improvisation, you could literally have a tattoo of anything you like

Yes. Do you have some moral opposition to indestructible coat hangers and t-shirts?

Giant2005 wrote:which is pretty absurd - I can assure you that no sane GM would ever allow it.

There is nothing insane about a GM allowing it. Maybe whimsical. The trick is really finding someone willing to create a tattoo like that. Surely somewhere there's a High Lord of Chaing-Ku batty enough to do that kinda stuff though.

Giant2005 wrote:a suit of Splicer style Bio-Armor that has every upgrade available - Bio-E shouldn't be a limit if you are summoning something into existence and as long as at least part of the object is considered a simple weapon, it should be fine right?

Not that familiar with Splicers, is there a WP explicitly associated with one of these bio-weapons? I do recall there being a piloting skill...

We do know that people can make special variants though. I've seen a tattoo for 'silver knife' for example. Based on that one could plausibly say 'iron spear' or 'gold bo staff' or maybe 'gantrium chakram' for all I know.

Am looking forward to a tattoo for Juicer Deadball though. It's only a matter of time.

In the real world, all that is required to turn something into a weapon, is to use that something as a weapon.
If you beat somebody to death with a frozen leg of lamb, then that leg of lamb is the murder weapon.
If you attack somebody with a football helmet, bashing them repeatedly with it, you can get charged with "assault with a deadly weapon."
Try telling the judge that you should really be charged with "assault with a deadly armor," and see where that gets you.

In the game world, things might be more nebulous than that, but not by much.
If you attack somebody with a chainsaw, you're attacking them with a weapon, regardless of whether or not the tool was designed as a weapon or as a tool of forestry
If you attack somebody with your bladed armor that was designed specifically to be used to cut and kill opponents in combat, how is that NOT a weapon?
It even has a Weapon Proficiency associated with it.
It's a weapon.

Now I want a flaming, crossed chainsaws tattoo. With dripping blood? I don't remember all the add ons off the top of my head but your "insane Chaing-Ku dragon" comment has inspired me.

Chainsaws are tools for chopping trees down, not inherently a weapon... trying to remember if there is a proficiency associated with it.

Tor wrote:Chainsaws are tools for chopping trees down, not inherently a weapon...

The trees would argue differently.

trying to remember if there is a proficiency associated with it.

I don't know of one. We always ruled that WP Chainsaw let you use a chainsaw as a weapon without penalties.

Picturing an Atlantean mechanic with a screwdriver tattoo at present.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:TMNT and Mystic China both list Shredder and Liang Hsung Armor as WP...

Wouldn't this mean you could make indestructible armor via even the simple weapon tattoo?

Yes.

But you'd need
a) a T man proficient with those, and they are not likely taught by your ordinary slave trainer, or even most elite armsmasters... and even if your T Man was Liang Hsiung trained before becoming a Sploog minion, you still need
b) a boss willing to indulge the request and
c) a tattoo master able to accurately depict the object...

T-men do not actually have to be proficient with the weapons they have tattoos of. The main limitation which was already expressed was finding a willing/capable tattoo master.

Glistam wrote:Now I want a flaming, crossed chainsaws tattoo. With dripping blood? I don't remember all the add ons off the top of my head but your "insane Chaing-Ku dragon" comment has inspired me.

With wings! so that they return after you throw them... just be very careful how you grab them when they come back

If I have a tattoo of Shredder weapon-armor with wings and dress my unconscious enemy in that weapon-armor-with-wings and then body flip/throw them off a cliff, will they return to me?

Tor wrote:If I have a tattoo of Shredder weapon-armor with wings and dress my unconscious enemy in that weapon-armor-with-wings and then body flip/throw them off a cliff, will they return to me?

No only the armor returns, and you take damage from body flipping them.

Neither armor describes opponents taking damage from successful body flips. Presumably you're able to grab a non-sharp area, much like when using it against someone attacking with a weapon.

Tor wrote:Neither armor describes opponents taking damage from successful body flips. Presumably you're able to grab a non-sharp area, much like when using it against someone attacking with a weapon.

Do swords describe opponents taking damage from grabbing the blade bare-handed?

Not exactly sure, most swords don't but there could be some reference in some book to a situation like that.

Presumably the necessity of grabbing the sword guy's wrist accounts for the lack of parry bonuses unarmed people suffer in some games from parrying weapon-users.

Presumably the gauntlet-wearing or hard-hand crowd avoid that penalty since they can grab a blade.

Although... I don't really get a parry penalty from trying to deflect a bo-staff. I guess even if it's edged it would whap you bad.

Are armors that are bladed, and that have a Weapon Proficiency, specifically exempted from the rule that there are penalties for parrying a weapon bare-handed?

Tor wrote:Picturing an Atlantean mechanic with a screwdriver tattoo at present.

A character that I played some time ago had a crow bar/wrecking bar tattoo that got a bunch of use.

--flatline

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are armors that are bladed, and that have a Weapon Proficiency, specifically exempted from the rule that there are penalties for parrying a weapon bare-handed?

I don't believe so, but I'm not sure if penalties to parry weapons are applied when body-flipping someone using one.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Are armors that are bladed, and that have a Weapon Proficiency, specifically exempted from the rule that there are penalties for parrying a weapon bare-handed?

I don't believe so, but I'm not sure if penalties to parry weapons are applied when body-flipping someone using one.

Do you see any logical reason why it wouldn't be?

Nope, just RAW quibbling (like how blindness doesn't explicitly penalize body-flips either)

Although that's more in regard to automatic body-flip when used as a defense.

Body flip as an attack is more like a strike so I don't think that would be penalized if someone were wearing the armor. It's not as if you get penalized trying to body-flip someone who's holding a sword.

Tor wrote:Nope, just RAW quibbling (like how blindness doesn't explicitly penalize body-flips either)

Although that's more in regard to automatic body-flip when used as a defense.

Body flip as an attack is more like a strike so I don't think that would be penalized if someone were wearing the armor. It's not as if you get penalized trying to body-flip someone who's holding a sword.

Actually, body flip can be used as a parry.

It can be used in place of one... being used in place of something isn't the same as being that thing.

Tor wrote:It can be used in place of one... being used in place of something isn't the same as being that thing.

When a body flip is performed agains a person wearing a suit of armor covered in blades, do you think that it would be unreasonable to give the defender the same penalties as they would get if they used a traditional parry?

Of course it's reasonable, already said that, just not RAW.

Just pointing out that I wouldn't apply the penalty for an offensive body-flip, just a one done automatically as a defense or maybe from a simultaneous attack.

Tor wrote:Of course it's reasonable, already said that, just not RAW.

Just pointing out that I wouldn't apply the penalty for an offensive body-flip, just a one done automatically as a defense or maybe from a simultaneous attack.

Would you apply the penalty to somebody attempting a bare-handed Disarm against a bladed weapon?

I suppose if it were being done as a defensive maneuver.

People don't have penalties to strike people wielding weapons though, so I don't think it should apply to offensive disarms.

Splicers has WP Armour which appears to be training in how to use armour you are wearing offensively (explicitly lists jabs and thrown shoulder attacks among others) so take that as you will.

As for useful indestructible weapons, I would say Bolas, similar to nets, only greater range.

Although if you want to get all Indiana Jones with an indestructible Bullwhip I can see the appeal. So many uses for a whip if the GM allows it.

Tor wrote:I suppose if it were being done as a defensive maneuver.

People don't have penalties to strike people wielding weapons though, so I don't think it should apply to offensive disarms.

When the weapon is a suit of armor, you have to beat the AR.

100ft of indestructible rope on demand is pretty handy, assuming you know your knots, although I have had a GM rule that 100ft of rope isn't useful as a weapon and denied the tattoo.

--flatline

flatline wrote:100ft of indestructible rope on demand is pretty handy, assuming you know your knots, although I have had a GM rule that 100ft of rope isn't useful as a weapon and denied the tattoo.

--flatline

Did you strangle your GM with a hunk of rope the next session? Would have proven your point!

13eowulf wrote:Splicers has WP Armour which appears to be training in how to use armour you are wearing offensively (explicitly lists jabs and thrown shoulder attacks among others) so take that as you will..

Huh, was not 'ware, must look into this. I wonder if Atlantean Tattoo Alchemists could duplicate that bio-technology in a tat... perhaps splicing it with an animal or monster tat... sort of like how Splugorth spliced weapon+power to invent the arrows.

Killer Cyborg wrote:When the weapon is a suit of armor, you have to beat the AR.

If every part of the armor was spiked, I'd agree, but in the case of Liang/Shredder armor, only certain portions of it have the weapons.

I'd say maybe ballpark it at roll over 1/2 the AR.

Thinyser wrote:

flatline wrote:100ft of indestructible rope on demand is pretty handy, assuming you know your knots, although I have had a GM rule that 100ft of rope isn't useful as a weapon and denied the tattoo.

--flatline

Did you strangle your GM with a hunk of rope the next session? Would have proven your point!

I did not. He made no argument about a Bola being a weapon and I got almost the same utility out of it.

I do my best to not argue with a GM for more than 30-60 seconds at a time. Once a ruling is made, I try to set my argument aside and deal with it.

--flatline

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:When the weapon is a suit of armor, you have to beat the AR.

If every part of the armor was spiked, I'd agree, but in the case of Liang/Shredder armor, only certain portions of it have the weapons.

Enough of it is bladed to make it significantly harder to flip than normal armor.

I'd say maybe ballpark it at roll over 1/2 the AR.

Interesting.
Care to flesh it out?

Not sure how much more to flesh it out, presumably bigger armor with more AR has more spikes so making it a percentage works.