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Hello friends, I have a couple questions I can hopefully get some answers and or advice from you guys on.

So I am playing a RUE Operator with, as far as I can tell, every applicable repair related skill. I am also piloting a customized SAMAS, which I would like to be able to regular repairs on.

According to Sourcebook 1 Revised (p37) paying someone to repair my SAMAS would cost 8000 Credits for 10 MDC.
According to RUE p92 in the operator section, I have a class feature called Repair and Soup-Up Machines & Vehicles. One of the subcategories under this skill is Replace M.D.C.. I can replace M.D.C. at a cost of 1200 credits per M.D.C., or 12000 for 10 M.D.C.
Now this character also has Mechanical Engineer, RUE p312, which doesn't specify being able to repair power armors, but it does have some rules on doing repairs. Unfortunately it requires 3 successful rolls to actually do this, meaning this is hard to succeed at.
He also has Robot Mechanics, RUE p312, which says I can repair power armor, but gives no specifics other than its a skill I can roll.

So, with these abilities (possibly more, there are a lot of repair related things) how the heck do I repair my own armor?
Do I just successfully do it since I have the operator ability to do it? Despite being a professional I pay more than having others do it.
Do I roll Mechanical Engineer skill 3 times and hope against all odds I can do it?
Do I just roll Robotic Engineer skill once, and either succeed or fail? If so, why even be an operator?

If you guys have experience with an operator in your group, could you tell me how you guys have handled this?

Robotic Engineering skill would be most appropriate to roll on, unless another skill is more applicable. At least that's how I do it. HU 2E (IINM with Hardware characters) and 1E RT (Bio-Maintence Engineer found in Bk5 and RT2:Sent main book) use a single skill for the class to repair and apply penalties based on skills and other factors. Said approach is adaptable to Rifts.

The cost issue to me would likely be what the the Operator Charges, not what he gets charged for parts (he gets a discount mentioned previously). Then again SB1r is duplicated from SB1o, so they might not have adjusted the rates for the time change between the two books.

Wait so SB1 says you can pay 800 creds per MDC for parts and services, but the raw cost of parts for an operator to do repairs is 1200 per MDC?

Something seems extremely off about this. Am liking SL's idea about that just being a labour charge and that cost of parts is passed on to customer.

So for non-operators, it should be 2000 creds per MDC.

Tor wrote:Wait so SB1 says you can pay 800 creds per MDC for parts and services, but the raw cost of parts for an operator to do repairs is 1200 per MDC?

Something seems extremely off about this. Am liking SL's idea about that just being a labour charge and that cost of parts is passed on to customer.

So for non-operators, it should be 2000 creds per MDC.

and if the customer provides their own parts, it's just the service charge.

Tor wrote:Wait so SB1 says you can pay 800 creds per MDC for parts and services, but the raw cost of parts for an operator to do repairs is 1200 per MDC?

Something seems extremely off about this. Am liking SL's idea about that just being a labour charge and that cost of parts is passed on to customer.

So for non-operators, it should be 2000 creds per MDC.

Yeah, one of the two big issues I am coming across. It seems more expensive for me, with a class feature, to repair stuff than getting a generic NPC to do it. Makes me feel a lot less special as a class.

The other issue is what darn skill to roll. Though Robotic Mechanics seems good since I like not have 3 points of failure like the Mechanical Engineer skill.

TheOttoman wrote:You need the military Armorer skill. That outright says that it's what is used to fix, modify or otherwise repair armor. It's Base 25% +5 and requires Mechanical Engineer, Basic Math, Basic Electronics and Literacy

I appreciate you pointing out yet another repair skill, much to my chagrin lol, but assuming you mean Field Armorer & Munitions Expert, RUE p315, that says it is for minor repairs (20 MDC Max) on armor. To keep this thread from go all sorts of directions I am specifically asking about repairing Power Armor (not regular armor).

The Robot Mechanics skill is more appropriate for power armor as it states "Those trained in this discipline can repair, modify, build, and sabotage robots, including industrial robot machines, power armor, military drones and robot vehicles."

TheOttoman wrote:Also, we've played it that you need sufficient spare parts to make the repair, which is one thing if you're at a Coalition base, and another thing altogether if you're out in the field. You can't just slice off a hunk of MD armor and slap it on your SAMAS, and chances are the particular MD armor is only going to be available from the Coalition. Their armor is more than likely unique and built specifically for the SAMAS which would be different than the armor found on a Death's Head or even a Skelebot; and it's absolutely different than Triax or Northern Gun armor.

I agree with you, I know I didn't specify, but this is Bandito Sidewinder SAMAS. So yes I am assuming that either:
A) I have the appropriate materials on hand and can just roll a skill to fix my junk or
B) I need to find or acquire M.D.C. material, so what are the costs of just buying M.D.C. materials? If there is, in fact, a stated price somewhere.

On an unrelated note, about just slapping on some salvage M.D.C. material and calling it armor as you stated, that is something the Jury-Rig, RUE p324, skill seems it can do.

BuzzardB wrote:

Tor wrote:Wait so SB1 says you can pay 800 creds per MDC for parts and services, but the raw cost of parts for an operator to do repairs is 1200 per MDC?

Something seems extremely off about this. Am liking SL's idea about that just being a labour charge and that cost of parts is passed on to customer.

So for non-operators, it should be 2000 creds per MDC.

Yeah, one of the two big issues I am coming across. It seems more expensive for me, with a class feature, to repair stuff than getting a generic NPC to do it. Makes me feel a lot less special as a class.

The other issue is what darn skill to roll. Though Robotic Mechanics seems good since I like not have 3 points of failure like the Mechanical Engineer skill.

Not the first time the math's way off on things, it should cost the Operator considerably less to repair something including putting on replacement armor than to pay someone else to do the work. Just price it at half what it would cost the NPC if the character has to buy parts instead of salvage stuff and call it a day.

Robot Mechanics would be the skill most suited to replacing/repairing the MDC, other skills can substitute but aren't specialized for replacing MDC on Power Armor like Robot Mechanics.

Nightmask wrote:

BuzzardB wrote:

Tor wrote:Wait so SB1 says you can pay 800 creds per MDC for parts and services, but the raw cost of parts for an operator to do repairs is 1200 per MDC?

Something seems extremely off about this. Am liking SL's idea about that just being a labour charge and that cost of parts is passed on to customer.

So for non-operators, it should be 2000 creds per MDC.

Yeah, one of the two big issues I am coming across. It seems more expensive for me, with a class feature, to repair stuff than getting a generic NPC to do it. Makes me feel a lot less special as a class.

The other issue is what darn skill to roll. Though Robotic Mechanics seems good since I like not have 3 points of failure like the Mechanical Engineer skill.

Not the first time the math's way off on things, it should cost the Operator considerably less to repair something including putting on replacement armor than to pay someone else to do the work. Just price it at half what it would cost the NPC if the character has to buy parts instead of salvage stuff and call it a day.

Robot Mechanics would be the skill most suited to replacing/repairing the MDC, other skills can substitute but aren't specialized for replacing MDC on Power Armor like Robot Mechanics.

my 0.02$
field armorer can do "limited" patch repairs a lot more if they have proper replacement parts
(I am thinking you have a samas with a shot up knee, they can patch on a random piece of mdc armor for ~20 mdc max, or take mucked up knee armor plating off and swap it for replacement units from stores)
mechanical engineer as written under the skill this is effectively the academic college grad engineer the multi rolls is intended to DESIGN a repair from scratch.
other useful skills:
robot mechanics removes the penalties for a mechanical engineer working on robot vehicles (and power armor)
vehicle armorer
aircraft armorer
weapons engineer
etc.

I've used the prices listed in sourcebook one as a starting point. From there, I figure a 50/50 split on parts and labor. Then I buy the materials using any of the discount methods available to an operator and supply the labor myself. The end result is that it costs me 35% of book value and some time.

It'd be kinda cool if we they got more skilled, operators could either repair something in less time, or else use less credits worth of raw materials to repair something.

Skill percentage sort of gives us a time-based rate since it indicates how many attempts it will take to succeed though I guess.

As you've figured out, there is no in-game mechanic or even explanation for how repairs/re-charges/modifications or really anything like that is supposed to work. It's one of the same issues that was always brought up with Techno-Wizards, where your OCC says you can do things (Operators can re-charge E-Clips, for example) but there is absolutely no explanation of how to do it, what it requires, and often no idea what skill is even appropriate.

Compound that with pretty much ever book that mentions these things giving different numbers, and you've got a colossally head-scratching issue for something that should be pretty simply stated.

Now, of course, since there is no real explanation of what you can or can't do or what it requires (just look at the rage that surfaces everytime someone tries to recharge their own E-Clips), there's never going to be a community consensus, RIFTS just wasn't made with those background mechanics in mind (just like with Economy/currency).

As always, in my opinion your best bet is to find the relevant info (which is undoubtedly spread across several different books and invariably contradicts itself), take it to your GM or player group, explain what you want (to repair a power armour) and why you think it should work (because you're an Operator) and try to figure out the best way to play to the spirit of the game.


PS- In the Ultimate Edition, are Operators still limited to Pilot: Robots and Power Armour (Basic)?

Eashamahel wrote:As always, in my opinion your best bet is to find the relevant info (which is undoubtedly spread across several different books and invariably contradicts itself), take it to your GM or player group, explain what you want (to repair a power armour) and why you think it should work (because you're an Operator) and try to figure out the best way to play to the spirit of the game.


PS- In the Ultimate Edition, are Operators still limited to Pilot: Robots and Power Armour (Basic)?

Yeah we pretty much settled on how it's going to work in our game, was just looking for everyones opinions since I am sure it has come up in their games.

RUE Operator has Pilot: Any and Pilot Related: Any

BuzzardB wrote:
Yeah we pretty much settled on how it's going to work in our game, was just looking for everyones opinions since I am sure it has come up in their games.

I really feel that the lack of a lot of systems for things in-game is one of the reasons RIFTS players often have such trouble relating to each other group to group, and why there seems to be so much friction between people who play in different groups. There's often no way to even USE the system to do things, and I don't just mean 'use Skill X and make Roll Y to get result Z', but even vague descriptions of what is needed to do something (like what's actually required to re-charge a clip), and because of that different groups develope very different ways of doing things (with each being equally 'correct'). Combine that with conflicting info in different books, or info just not making sense (like your repair cost listed above being more for the Operator to do it himself) and there's often no real common ground for people to stand on in discussions or arguments.

And then of course we see people trying to make their arguments from perspectives outside of the game (how something works in real life, ect.), which inevitably fall apart as the game itself wasn't designed with real-life physics/economy, ect., in mind, and it really (to me, at least) seems to lead to this fractured fan base.

BuzzardB wrote:RUE Operator has Pilot: Any and Pilot Related: Any

The RMB has Pilot: Any (+10%) as well, it's in the Standard Equipment section where it says "Note: The character [...] is limited to basic robot combat." Which of course makes perfect sense to be in the Equipment section and not directly above that in the Skills section... 'Cause RIFTS.

Eashamahel wrote:I really feel that the lack of a lot of systems for things in-game is one of the reasons RIFTS players often have such trouble relating to each other group to group, and why there seems to be so much friction between people who play in different groups. There's often no way to even USE the system to do things, and I don't just mean 'use Skill X and make Roll Y to get result Z', but even vague descriptions of what is needed to do something (like what's actually required to re-charge a clip), and because of that different groups develope very different ways of doing things (with each being equally 'correct'). Combine that with conflicting info in different books, or info just not making sense (like your repair cost listed above being more for the Operator to do it himself) and there's often no real common ground for people to stand on in discussions or arguments.

And then of course we see people trying to make their arguments from perspectives outside of the game (how something works in real life, ect.), which inevitably fall apart as the game itself wasn't designed with real-life physics/economy, ect., in mind, and it really (to me, at least) seems to lead to this fractured fan base.

I concur

Eashamahel wrote:
The RMB has Pilot: Any (+10%) as well, it's in the Standard Equipment section where it says "Note: The character [...] is limited to basic robot combat." Which of course makes perfect sense to be in the Equipment section and not directly above that in the Skills section... 'Cause RIFTS.

I don't see a restriction in my copy in the equipment section, which is good.
The ability to pilot power armor was one of the major reasons I chose him, being an operator was pretty much necessary so i have a reason to modify Power Armors to fit my Grackletooth.

MODERATED

Besides that, there really aren't any rules for ANY grappling in PB's books, as far as I am aware. It's very 80's, so it's all about join 'locks' pro-wrestling style, which is fine (there's nothing wrong with keeping things super simple, CMB/CMD style) except the system introduces options like using the Body-Block/Tackle from the Wrestling skill, which (I assume?) can lead to the Pin move (from the same skill) and how these are done is vague at best (even what bonuses, if any, you get to those manuevers), let alone how those are supposed to interact with things like bonuses from defensive abilities like Maintain Balance or even Roll.

Combat is basically 'throw the greatest number of attacks possible (with the best damage dice) and look for that 20 that automatically gives you the win through knockout', or failing that, Judo throw someone out of attacks (because they lose an attack being thrown. Or is it they spend an attack getting up? Do you spend an attack getting up? Anyways, you lose your attack, and then the guy throws you again. But wait, do you lose your NEXT attack, or is it just one from your 'attack pool'? Either way you can still dodge the throw, right? Does the dodge attack come from your next attack, or is it from your attack pool? I know you can keep dodging even when out of attacks even though it takes an attack because you can take it from next rounds attacks, does that work the same way for attacks lost from the throw? Why wouldn't you just Simul every attempt to Throw, then you both have the same chance of getting the 20, but why even roll for initiative then? Wait, can a Body Flip from Judo cause a knockout because you have Boxing?... )

Pretty sure I've seen statements to the effect of dodges and body flips making you lose the next attack.

I also think it's reasonable to assume that when it says we lose an attack, that it is the next unless otherwise indicated.

Nat 20 knockouts, in spite of a lack of RAW restrictions, I interpret as only applying to punches, and then, only when you can reach the head of the thing you're punching, and even then, if they're quite big, some level of strength should be behind it.

I'm generally pretty vague with my opinion on what can be a knockout blow, since a many a combatant has been (T)KO'd with everything from punches to the head to shots to the body, and even kicks to the legs. Throwing someone who doesn't know how to react (fails to Roll? ) is also a pretty god way to get the Stun part of the Knockout/Stun attack.

Different interpretations for different folks. The Operator though is often a point of contention that dwarfs all others when players with one idea about how it works and what it should be able to do meet players with a different view. Reading that your Operator can "Re-Charge E-Clips" or "modify" or "soup-up" power armour, robots or weapons or "mount weapons" on PA/Robots/vehichles or even, as seen in this thread, make repairs, you would probably expect your character to be able to DO that....

Except you can't. Because there's no mechanic in place to do so, and since it's an entirely fictional world not in ANY way bound by the mechanical or scientific laws we use in the real world/outside of game, what seems entirely reasonable to some will seem unthinkable to others, or what seems like a simple idea with minimal difficulty will appear to be game-breakingly munchkin.

There are some VERY few exceptions, where the stats for a vehichle/machine will say something along the lines of "4D6MD (though a good Operator will be abble to increase this to 1D4x10)" but again, in all the (few) examples like that I have seen listed randomly about the books, even information like what it would cost to make that modification (as opposed to just putting on a gun that does 1D4x10 as per Sourcebook 1) is left out.

Eashamahel wrote:Except you can't. Because there's no mechanic in place to do so, and since it's an entirely fictional world not in ANY way bound by the mechanical or scientific laws we use in the real world/outside of game, what seems entirely reasonable to some will seem unthinkable to others, or what seems like a simple idea with minimal difficulty will appear to be game-breakingly munchkin.

Alternatively, in the glass-half-full world they can do it, they simply succeed when trying to do those things.

One I really love is "Repairs for Cheap:Can completely repair most parts, machines and vehicles at a cost of 25% of its original list price"
Costs me the same amount to repair a vehicle thats got a broken side-view mirror than one that got chopped it half? Yeeesh.

There doesn't seem to be a LOT of benefits to being an operator over just choosing the right skills as anyone else and using the sourcebook 1 repairing prices, BUT the Maximize Performance RUEp92 feature is pretty awesome.

Yeah, the advantage is of course that you get those skills (with a skill bonus). If you can take another class that gets equivalent skills (or just the ones you actually want) then there's really no additional bonus. They are 'Super Mechanics' only because they get the mechanical skills.

It should be mentioned that in-game though, being an actual Operator and referring to yourself as such has a fair amount of cultural impact (in North America), maybe second only to the Cyber Knights, and to me, that's the real reason to play one. As above, anyone can take mechanical skills, but that doesn't make that other person a famous Operator, wandering super-mechanic and master of the forgotten secrets of the technology of earth's Golden Age.

Anyone can claim to be an operator though, and it's not as if they have some kind of membership or trade union, so if you have equal/better skills then you could pass as one. That's why it's nice RUE added some unique OCC skills to these adventurer classes.

Tor wrote:Anyone can claim to be an operator though, and it's not as if they have some kind of membership or trade union, so if you have equal/better skills then you could pass as one. That's why it's nice RUE added some unique OCC skills to these adventurer classes.

There is actually some indication that there is supposed to be some sort of 'guild of operators'. But its pretty vauge, and outside of a couple bits of fluff the only place I have seen anything supporting it is the City of Char in Dionsaur swamp, which may be the exception not the rule.

Operators are supposed to be trained by Operators, and keep much of the extent of their knowledge secret, hidden behind talk of man's Golden Age and forgotten secrets, ect. It's not unreasonable to believe that an equally skilled 'Mechanic' character may still believe that an Operator has knowledge and abilities beyond them (in original area North America).

Shouldn't be that hard to fake your way into the guild, and something like that would be merit-based anyway.

Inevitably some mechanic doesn't buy into hype and tests their percentiles.