Page 1 of 1
A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:34 am
by SpiritInterface
In the last session of our Heroes game my Hunter/Vigilante was give the opportunity to acquire 6 H&K G-11 advanced combat rifles and a Massive amount of ammo for it.
For those not familiar with the G11 it was developed in the 1980-90 for the Bundeswehr and other NATO partners. It fires a 4,73x33mm caseless and has a very unique firing mechanism that on 3 round burst has a rate of fire of over 2100 rounds a minute, so that by the time the shooter feels the recoil of the first round the third has bee fired.
Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:29 am
by Galroth
SpiritInterface wrote:In the last session of our Heroes game my Hunter/Vigilante was give the opportunity to acquire 6 H&K G-11 advanced combat rifles and a Massive amount of ammo for it.
For those not familiar with the G11 it was developed in the 1980-90 for the Bundeswehr and other NATO partners. It fires a 4,73x33mm caseless and has a very unique firing mechanism that on 3 round burst has a rate of fire of over 2100 rounds a minute, so that by the time the shooter feels the recoil of the first round the third has bee fired.
Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
IIRC, even laser weapons use burst rules when doing a 3 shot pulse attack. I guess I'd use the burst rules even in this case just for consistencies sake.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:09 am
by SpiritInterface
Galroth wrote:SpiritInterface wrote:In the last session of our Heroes game my Hunter/Vigilante was give the opportunity to acquire 6 H&K G-11 advanced combat rifles and a Massive amount of ammo for it.
For those not familiar with the G11 it was developed in the 1980-90 for the Bundeswehr and other NATO partners. It fires a 4,73x33mm caseless and has a very unique firing mechanism that on 3 round burst has a rate of fire of over 2100 rounds a minute, so that by the time the shooter feels the recoil of the first round the third has bee fired.
Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
IIRC, even laser weapons use burst rules when doing a 3 shot pulse attack. I guess I'd use the burst rules even in this case just for consistencies sake.
Actually in one source (I am still going through my library) Siembieda contradicts that and says that laser weapons have no recoil, are invisible, and silent.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:47 am
by Jefffar
However, the general precedent in Rifts, Robotech, Heroes, Systems Failure and Splicers (all the systems with the current ruleset and bust firing energy weapons IIRC) is that energy weapon pulse modes are bursts, and those would have less recoil than the G11. So a burst is a burst in this case.
This is more an issue of the way the burst rules work being inconsistent with reality than anything of course. In reality a burst provides more opportunities to hit at slightly lower accuracy rather than more hits from a successful attack. The result is a net higher odds of scoring at least one hit, and the possibility of multiple hits.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:39 am
by Killer Cyborg
SpiritInterface wrote:Galroth wrote:SpiritInterface wrote:In the last session of our Heroes game my Hunter/Vigilante was give the opportunity to acquire 6 H&K G-11 advanced combat rifles and a Massive amount of ammo for it.
For those not familiar with the G11 it was developed in the 1980-90 for the Bundeswehr and other NATO partners. It fires a 4,73x33mm caseless and has a very unique firing mechanism that on 3 round burst has a rate of fire of over 2100 rounds a minute, so that by the time the shooter feels the recoil of the first round the third has bee fired.
Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
IIRC, even laser weapons use burst rules when doing a 3 shot pulse attack. I guess I'd use the burst rules even in this case just for consistencies sake.
Actually in one source (I am still going through my library) Siembieda contradicts that and says that laser weapons have no recoil, are invisible, and silent.
Saying that they have no recoil is not the same as saying that they don't use the same rules as other burst/spray weapons.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:57 am
by Alrik Vas
There are a great deal of laser weapons that deal a set damage for a single shot and literally do x3 that damage for a 3-shot pulse though. I think the HK would do triple damage for a burst.
Weapon was designed specifically to work that way.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:44 pm
by Mechghost
Use the burst rules but give it a +1 to Aimed Bursts bonus or something to counter the burst penalty for aimed shots and call it even. No players can complain that you're changing rules.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:46 pm
by Jefffar
The greater contention is should the burst use the same bonus to strike as an aimed shot? The answer is no as this is without precedent.
Now if you want slug throwers with 3x damage on 3 shot bursts, those exists, in Robotech and Nightbane for example.
G-11 should be about 3D6 per round iirc (very small rounds to help achieve that reduced recoil). So 9D6 on a burst.
But burst strike bonus, not aimed shot bonus.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:44 pm
by Prysus
Jefffar wrote:However, the general precedent in Rifts, Robotech, Heroes, Systems Failure and Splicers (all the systems with the current ruleset and bust firing energy weapons IIRC) is that energy weapon pulse modes are bursts, and those would have less recoil than the G11. So a burst is a burst in this case.
Greetings and Salutations. Not entirely accurate. RUE, page 361, first column, under the header of "Weapon Modifiers" we see a heading for "Rapid-Fire Pulse." There it says that it's "so fast it is not even considered to be a burst, but a single, heavy blast." They do not suffer penalties except on "Aimed or Called Shots" (in which the bonuses are reduced by half). Note: This is also found in Robotech: Shadow Chronicles on page 240 (manga edition). Splicers and older books still have pulse fire following the "burst" rules.
Of course, I should note, as per RUE, the W.P. bonuses no longer require "aimed" to be within the equation. Aimed is a separate bonus. If using a Rapid-Fire Aimed Burst, then you effectively follow the burst rules. However, you can receive the full W.P. bonus if you just do
not aim. While the original question did include an aimed burst, I just wanted to add that piece of info in there. So for a higher level character (if using the RUE, or RT:SC ruleset), they could probably have a higher bonus to stirke by firing from the hip. Go figure. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:25 am
by drewkitty ~..~
SpiritInterface wrote:In the last session of our Heroes game my Hunter/Vigilante was give the opportunity to acquire 6 H&K G-11 advanced combat rifles and a Massive amount of ammo for it.
For those not familiar with the G11 it was developed in the 1980-90 for the Bundeswehr and other NATO partners. It fires a 4,73x33mm caseless and has a very unique firing mechanism that on 3 round burst has a rate of fire of over 2100 rounds a minute, so that by the time the shooter feels the recoil of the first round the third has bee fired.
Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
If what you say is true then go with a non-burst attack roll, The pulse lasers have a triple pulse setting that follow the non-burst attack rules in the 3G and Rifts books. If I were you I'd find a few of the pulse lasers that are like that and look at the damage rating to use as a guideline to set the damage for the triple burst you are talking about
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:50 pm
by The Immortal ME
You know, honestly, I thought the recoil buffer in the G11 never worked quite right and the ridiculous complexity raised serious questions about maintenance.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:22 pm
by Jefffar
More that it was hideously expensive to manufacture and with the end of the Cold War, purchases were stopped after only 1000 examples for Special Forces issue, which for the most part were put into storage as there was only a limited supply of the special ammunition.
For general issue Germany instead went to the 5.56mm G-36 which is simpler, cheaper and has ultimately comparable battlefield performance - at least until it was used in Afghanistan and it was found to be prone to heat warping.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:28 am
by SpiritInterface
Jefffar wrote:More that it was hideously expensive to manufacture and with the end of the Cold War, purchases were stopped after only 1000 examples for Special Forces issue, which for the most part were put into storage as there was only a limited supply of the special ammunition.
For general issue Germany instead went to the 5.56mm G-36 which is simpler, cheaper and has ultimately comparable battlefield performance - at least until it was used in Afghanistan and it was found to be prone to heat warping.
The Germans had to learn the same lessons that the US learned about the lighter barrels, that is why after Gulf1 the US went back to a heavier barrel.
As you noted German Unification killed the G-11, as for the ammo Dynamite-Nobel did a 5 million round run before the contract was canceled.
Hunter/Vigilantes are expected to use rare/exotic weapons.
One of the reasons the GM is offering this is because almost every firearm using character in the game uses a .40sw semi-auto pistol and/or either a 5.56mm or a 7.62mm rifle. So he is trying to introduce diversity/variety into the game.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:58 pm
by Dog_O_War
SpiritInterface wrote:Because of this it has been purposed that in 3 round burst mode it should be treated like a single shot from a selective fire weapon with full aimed bonuses and that all three rounds of the burst hit.
I am throwing this up here to see what you opinions might be.
I think it's reasonable to treat the gun in this method, even if it may not be exactly within the rules.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:21 pm
by RiftJunkie
While I agree that pulse weapons wouldn't have a kick and a super fast 3 round burst wouldn't effect accuracy, I simply view it as a game mechanic to try to limit large amounts of damage being inflicted on a regular basis. The rule wastes ammo and extends the combat. There are so many things in this system that will not hold up to reality. It doesn't have to. Fall back to the first rule, have fun. Do what makes the most sense to you and your group. Happy Hunting!
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:28 pm
by FatherMorpheus
As I remember the G-11 was actually designed to fire 3 rounds so quickly that recoil didn't kick in until the 3rd round left the barrel. So I wouldn't see any problem with treating a 3-rnd burst as a shot which could be aimed. Though only the 3-rnd burst. And treat it like the JA-12 and other rifles that can 3-round pulse and still do aimed shots with them.
Of course, make it a one off and perhaps define the damage differently not full on 3 x Single Round Damage.
Re: A unique situation with a unique Weapon
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:53 am
by SpiritInterface
FatherMorpheus wrote:As I remember the G-11 was actually designed to fire 3 rounds so quickly that recoil didn't kick in until the 3rd round left the barrel. So I wouldn't see any problem with treating a 3-rnd burst as a shot which could be aimed. Though only the 3-rnd burst. And treat it like the JA-12 and other rifles that can 3-round pulse and still do aimed shots with them.
Of course, make it a one off and perhaps define the damage differently not full on 3 x Single Round Damage.
The standard rate of fire for the G-11 on full auto is listed at 650 rounds per minute, the 2100 round per minute rate is only in 3 round burst mode and is calculated on the speed in which the 3 rounds are fired.
It is a one off in that it was only offered to my character.