Suppose You Survive the World Tree

[Smooth Operator]

So here's a hypothetical. Suppose you have a rifts character that obtained the gift of knowledge from Yggdrasil. For our purposes, we'll suppose that this gives access to all spells equal to or less than the character's level, but no increases to spell strength. Also suppose that changing OCC is allowed, but that you only gain the class abilities.

How do you go about building this character into a mage that can do just about anything?

[Library Ogre]

The main thing, IMO, would be to find a class that's going to offer the largest amount of PPE, or sufficient PPE batteries. I don't recall if the Yggdrasil confers the abilities of a Stone Master, but I think that would be a good place to start. Build yourself a pyramid on a line or a nexus, and use the pyramid as your personal PPE battery to do what you like. IIRC, the Yggdrasil does confer some Warlock magic; earth Warlock magic will let you summon some minor elementals to help build that pyramid.

[Bill]

The gift of knowledge does not grant any of the Stone Master knowledge or abilities. I agree, it would be a good thing to add. I think the most optimal choice would be to start as a Godling with option 10 selected twice, which would grant the class powers from two of the following Ley Line Walker, Shifter, Mystic or Warlock (or Necromancer if evil), and a decent amount of PPE (3D4x10). The Herbalist, Scathach Druid, or Technowizard would be good to open up some magic item creation options.

[Smooth Operator]

At what point do you go for the additional OCC? Would it be best to reach level 15 for the spell access, assuming that a decent PPE pool is already available?

[Library Ogre]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

[Tor]

How do you go about building this character into a mage that can do just about anything?

I'd go about becoming a Diabolist and Summoner and Line Maker and Chi Sorcerer.

[Smooth Operator]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

[Smooth Operator]

How do you go about building this character into a mage that can do just about anything?

I'd go about becoming a Diabolist and Summoner and Line Maker and Chi Sorcerer.

Why Line Maker and Summoner? Also, where would I find the Chi Sorcerer?

[Library Ogre]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Then, yeah. Switch to Stone Mage as soon as possible.

1) The advantages of stone magic... massive PPE supply, gem magic, the increased life span from living in a pyramid.
2) Relatively brief time period to equal your current level, then go one from there.

You're not unstoppable, but you have a great advantage on others who might try to take your power. If you can find a backwater to build power in (say, set up in a pyramid in the Yin-Sloth jungles), you can do a lot in a short amount of time.

[Galroth]

I'd switch to Techno-Wizard. All the spells you get from the gift of Knowledge would allow you to make some interesting items.

[cornholioprime]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

You could theoretically gain access to a spell of ANY level at ANY time, unless your magic OCC prohibited it and/or the magic in question was limited to a particular type of mage -for example, being a Witch or Mystic or Harvester -and if you survived the Yggdrasil Encounter you would have access to every spell.

(Also, I disagree with those posters who think that you would not gain the powers and abilities of a Stone Master; I simply cannot find any such limitation, nor do I see how Stone Master Magic is an exception to the 'Surviving Character learns ALL magic' clause. Odin is a Necromancer apparently without ever having tried it, for example.)

[Smooth Operator]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

You could theoretically gain access to a spell of ANY level at ANY time, unless your magic OCC prohibited it and/or the magic in question was limited to a particular type of mage -for example, being a Witch or Mystic or Harvester -and if you survived the Yggdrasil Encounter you would have access to every spell.

(Also, I disagree with those posters who think that you would not gain the powers and abilities of a Stone Master; I simply cannot find any such limitation, nor do I see how Stone Master Magic is an exception to the 'Surviving Character learns ALL magic' clause. Odin is a Necromancer apparently without ever having tried it, for example.)

If I'm reading the text right, you get all spells equal to your character level or lower. I don't know if character level is equal to the sum of all of your OCC levels or if it's equal to the level of your highest OCC. I'm guessing it's the latter.

Personally, I think the first part of the text where it says you completely understand how magic works, can read runes and mystic symbols, and can recognize and read wards and circles makes the necromancy and temporal magic entries redundant. Actually, now that I read that text again, I think it means that you get all necromancy spells and all temporal magic spells, no matter what your level is. You could be level 2 and cast level 1-15 necromancy and temporal magic spells.

Nothing about the gift of knowledge gives you all the various abilities of the magic OCCs.

[cornholioprime]

If I'm reading the text right, you get all spells equal to your character level or lower. I don't know if character level is equal to the sum of all of your OCC levels or if it's equal to the level of your highest OCC. I'm guessing it's the latter.

Yes, you are correct, I stand corrected.

I mistakenly thought that I was talking about yet another poster, probably here from recent playing in another game system, who thought that Palladium Magic is limited in terms of availability to your current level.

Yggdrasil's gift is yet another of those (relatively rare) instances in Palladium, like Witchery, that limits what you can auto-learn to your current (presumably magic-based OCC) level.

Personally, I think the first part of the text where it says you completely understand how magic works, can read runes and mystic symbols, and can recognize and read wards and circles makes the necromancy and temporal magic entries redundant. Actually, now that I read that text again, I think it means that you get all necromancy spells and all temporal magic spells, no matter what your level is. You could be level 2 and cast level 1-15 necromancy and temporal magic spells.

Agreed.

Limited to the other magic types, unlimited in terms of Temporal Magic and Necromancy (except of course for the lack of OCC abilities).


SIDE NOTE: Re-reading the section on Stone Magic, I would amend my previous answer to say that one who receives the Gift Of Magic from Yggdrasil would not get the ability to use Stone Magic, because upon re-reading the Atlantis book I saw a section in there that says that Stone Magic is somehow done without the use of spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

Can you cite the source on that one?

[eliakon]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

Can you cite the source on that one?

That's easy. ALL casters start with a SS of 12. If you want an increase you need to get an increase from some source, and almost all canon sources of increased SS are from level bonuses in a specific magical OCC.

[cornholioprime]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

Can you cite the source on that one?

That's easy. ALL casters start with a SS of 12. If you want an increase you need to get an increase from some source, and almost all canon sources of increased SS are from level bonuses in a specific magical OCC.

Page 116, RUE.
Page 184, PFRPG.

[eliakon]

The question to be asked would be what you mean by 'Do anything' If you want to be able to cast ALL the magic in ALL the books, your going to need to stack a heck of a lot of OCCs, many at pretty high levels (Stuff like Whale Songs, Warlock Spells, Cloud Magic, and the like is OCC restricted.) Another issue would be what your GM considers "all spells" to be. If its "all invocation spells" (which is how I interpret it) or if its "all magic of any kind" (which I have seen as well). If its the later, then take either Whale Singer, Cloud Knight, Cloud Weaver, Diabolist, Summoner, Stone Master, or Line Drawer or the like, and level to 15. Then start over picking up classes for abilities, and leveling those that have unleveled spells. Of course by the time you get to be able to do 'anything' your likely going to have to be level 15 in multiple classes...but if the character is that high powered I guess that's not a problem.

If you don't mind just dabbling, I would pick up four or five levels of summoner, diabolist, line drawer, stone master, conjurer, this combined with a wide array of 'normal' spells is going to allow you to have the magical tool for most any situation. Continuing to pick up a bit of this or that OCC would keep on widening your breadth of ability, though at the cost of depth.

[Tor]

Why Line Maker and Summoner?

Summoner to control minions and easy access to components. Line Maker because they add a bunch of options to supplement wards.

where would I find the Chi Sorcerer?

I probably shouldn't have uppercased it, I just have a hard time remembering the names of the various Mystic China (N&SS supplement) PCCs that can do Chi Magic.

I disagree with those posters who think that you would not gain the powers and abilities of a Stone Master; I simply cannot find any such limitation, nor do I see how Stone Master Magic is an exception to the 'Surviving Character learns ALL magic' clause. Odin is a Necromancer apparently without ever having tried it, for example.)

Where are you getting this "all magic" clause from, exactly? I only see "gains the following abilities" on page 162 of Pantheons. The "spell magic" is a reference commonly used to indicate standard magic, not things like warlock magic, for example.

You point out Odin being a Necromancer, but he is not listed as being a Stone Master. Shouldn't he be, if the tree gives that?

Odin is also a unique case. Odin is a full Necromancer and Temporal Wizard and would presumably get those classes' OCC abilities. Anyone else who uses the tree only gets the spells, not the OCCs. The same applies to Ley Line Walking and Shifting, OCCs that Odin got from the tree but which other people would not get from the tree. This means Odin would pay standard cost for Necromancer spells and that anyone else using the tree would have to pay double (unless the person was a necromancer). It means that Odin can manage supernatural minions but other tree-users can't.

In regard to LLW, tree-users only get SOME of the abilities (those involving lines, not seeing PPE, for example) whereas Odin gets them all since he's actually a LLW.

The phrase 'Odin knows all there is to know about magic and sorcery" also refers exclusively to him. In spite of "knowing all there is to know", it seems clear that he is not declared to be a Stone Master or Warlock, so we can safely assume that this statement is only referring to standard learnable spell magic and not specialty forms of learned magic.

[Smooth Operator]

The question to be asked would be what you mean by 'Do anything' If you want to be able to cast ALL the magic in ALL the books, your going to need to stack a heck of a lot of OCCs, many at pretty high levels (Stuff like Whale Songs, Warlock Spells, Cloud Magic, and the like is OCC restricted.)

The OCC restricted stuff generally costs me double the PPE to cast as an invocation. I may pick up Air and Earth warlock just to bring the costs down for those spells.

Another issue would be what your GM considers "all spells" to be. If its "all invocation spells" (which is how I interpret it) or if its "all magic of any kind" (which I have seen as well). If its the later, then take either Whale Singer, Cloud Knight, Cloud Weaver, Diabolist, Summoner, Stone Master, or Line Drawer or the like, and level to 15. Then start over picking up classes for abilities, and leveling those that have unleveled spells. Of course by the time you get to be able to do 'anything' your likely going to have to be level 15 in multiple classes...but if the character is that high powered I guess that's not a problem.

In this case, "all spells" really means all spells. This would exclude dances and chants, conjuring, herb magic, stone magic, etc. The character is already fairly high level, so I'll probably take the current OCC to 15.

Spell strength would probably be a good thing to get. The stuff we're fighting can save against a 12 fairly easily. My favorite spells don't have traditional saves anyway though.

[Library Ogre]

(Also, I disagree with those posters who think that you would not gain the powers and abilities of a Stone Master; I simply cannot find any such limitation, nor do I see how Stone Master Magic is an exception to the 'Surviving Character learns ALL magic' clause. Odin is a Necromancer apparently without ever having tried it, for example.)

For clarification, I wasn't saying you're granted Stone Magic... I'm saying that, given the way the Yggdrasil works in Palladium, I'd learn Stone Magic to meet the OP's goal of "Able to do whatever I want."

[cornholioprime]

Where are you getting this "all magic" clause from, exactly? I only see "gains the following abilities" on page 162 of Pantheons. The "spell magic" is a reference commonly used to indicate standard magic, not things like warlock magic, for example.

So what?

"Spell Magic" has been blurred as a term over many years and many books.

Originally, one could argue that the term pretty much referred only to "standard" spell magic, but even way back when, IIRC, there were references to 'spell' meaning 'just about anything magic that isn't a Ritual or fired off from a magical device.'

And personally, I can't remember the last time I saw an official reference in the books stating that Spell Magic refers only to "standard;" clearly the nomenclature of magic has changed significantly since then.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Unless the Yggdrasil's benefits are tied to your current OCC, I'd switch to something like Stone Mage as soon as possible; the benefits of being a Stone Mage (with access to your own pyramid and a Stone Mage's powers) are enough to make it quite worthwhile.

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

Can you cite the source on that one?

That's easy. ALL casters start with a SS of 12. If you want an increase you need to get an increase from some source, and almost all canon sources of increased SS are from level bonuses in a specific magical OCC.

Page 116, RUE.
Page 184, PFRPG.

Not all spell casters start with a Spell Str of 12, mundane Chi Mages only cast spells at a Spell Str. of 10.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm operating under the assumption that you would need to have 15 levels in one OCC in order to get the level 15 spells.

Negative.

In the Palladium System, your personal level determines Spell Strength.

Can you cite the source on that one?

That's easy. ALL casters start with a SS of 12. If you want an increase you need to get an increase from some source, and almost all canon sources of increased SS are from level bonuses in a specific magical OCC.

It sounded like he was talking about accessing level 15 spells via the World Tree's magic, and saying that if you were 1st level in 15 different classes, then that would count as being 15th level as far as acquiring spells via the Tree.

[cornholioprime]

It sounded like he was talking about accessing level 15 spells via the World Tree's magic, and saying that if you were 1st level in 15 different classes, then that would count as being 15th level as far as acquiring spells via the Tree.

As far as that goes, I personally have no idea whatsoever how your levels are supposed to be calculated if you survive the process (or if you even have to 'multiclass' in the first place with your original O.C.C.).

Perhaps one starts out as a brand new, blank slate, Level One "tree person" O.C.C.


Cornholio_Prime -often hopes that the Rifts Movie will be made some day very soon and make a kagillion dollars, so that Kevin and Company, after earning massive royalties from the box office, will use their newfound leisure time to go back through EVERY palladium book ever made with a fine-tooth comb and correct all the errors/gameplay holes like this one with Yggdrasil

[Nightmask]

It sounded like he was talking about accessing level 15 spells via the World Tree's magic, and saying that if you were 1st level in 15 different classes, then that would count as being 15th level as far as acquiring spells via the Tree.

As far as that goes, I personally have no idea whatsoever how your levels are supposed to be calculated if you survive the process (or if you even have to 'multiclass' in the first place with your original O.C.C.).

Perhaps one starts out as a brand new, blank slate, Level One "tree person" O.C.C.


Cornholio_Prime -often hopes that the Rifts Movie will be made some day very soon and make a kagillion dollars, so that Kevin and Company, after earning massive royalties from the box office, will use their newfound leisure time to go back through EVERY palladium book ever made with a fine-tooth comb and correct all the errors/gameplay holes like this one with Yggdrasil

Considering the only OCC that counts with regards to surviving the tree is the highest level OCC you've got it would be a bit off if that wasn't what determined the spell levels you have access to: namely the highest level OCC you've got is the highest level of spells available to you from all available spell categories (which would be quite a bit given the various spell-casting OCC around with their own unique spells).

[Killer Cyborg]

the only OCC that counts with regards to surviving the tree is the highest level OCC you've got it would be a bit off if that wasn't what determined the spell levels you have access to: namely the highest level OCC you've got is the highest level of spells available to you from all available spell categories (which would be quite a bit given the various spell-casting OCC around with their own unique spells).

This is more or less my stance.
If you're level 1 in three OCCs, then you still just have Tree access to Level 1 spell magic.
If you're level 5 in one OCC, and level 15 in another, then you have access to level 15 magic, and the other 5 levels are superfluous.

[Tor]

"Spell Magic" has been blurred as a term over many years and many books.

Originally, one could argue that the term pretty much referred only to "standard" spell magic, but even way back when, IIRC, there were references to 'spell' meaning 'just about anything magic that isn't a Ritual or fired off from a magical device.'

And personally, I can't remember the last time I saw an official reference in the books stating that Spell Magic refers only to "standard;" clearly the nomenclature of magic has changed significantly since then.

You make some valid points. I believe Palladium has created an atmosphere of exclusivity between standard/warlock magic. Warlocks only being able to select warlock spells from their lifesign, being one side of it.

This nomenclature issue you speak of is an issue that extends beyond Yggdrasil's gift, of course. Even as of RUEp115, a Ley Line Walker may select "any three spells" from various levels, so there isn't anything explicitly there forbidding them from selecting Warlock magic.

I do feel as if I simply can't remember a statement stating that Warlock magic is not learnable by non-Warlocks unless explicitly stated, I'll keep an eye out for it. Can anyone confirm this suspicion?

[Killer Cyborg]

I'd say that "spell magic" still refers to the common spells in this context.

[Tor]

Same, Pantheons and other god-hosting books go out of their way to mention warlock magic distinctly, so when that isn't done I don't think it's included.

[Library Ogre]

I personally view Warlock magic as being completely separate from spell magic, and more akin (in some ways) to psionics or superpowers. Spell magic is just a very flexible tool that allows you to fake some of a warlock's tricks... the results look the same, but the process is entirely different.

[eliakon]

My personal take? There are lots of 'kinds of magic' in game....and if you do this you get all the Invocation/Universal/Generic spells. You might get some/most/all of the other "anyone can learn this kind of spell(some restrictions may apply)" Magics as well. I would say that you DONT get stuff like Warlock Spells, Spoiling Magic, Biomancy, or anything else that says "exclusive to X" And I would Also not allow any magic that doesn't have levels (regardless of if its learnable 'openly' or not so no circles, line drawings, chaos spells, cloud spells, ect)
Of course YMMV

[Smooth Operator]

My personal take? There are lots of 'kinds of magic' in game....and if you do this you get all the Invocation/Universal/Generic spells. You might get some/most/all of the other "anyone can learn this kind of spell(some restrictions may apply)" Magics as well. I would say that you DONT get stuff like Warlock Spells, Spoiling Magic, Biomancy, or anything else that says "exclusive to X" And I would Also not allow any magic that doesn't have levels (regardless of if its learnable 'openly' or not so no circles, line drawings, chaos spells, cloud spells, ect)
Of course YMMV

What you get as far as spells goes is completely open to interpretation. I'm hoping that they left it open ended because new spells get added when new books come out. My take was that exclusivity doesn't really apply to the world tree. Therefore, if it gives you knowledge of all spells, you get all spells.

[Tor]

It's as open to interpretation as what a LLW can learn is. If we argue that Yggdrasil gives Warlock magic, then by same wording we would have to believe LLW can learn warlock spells.

[Killer Cyborg]

Does Odin know Warlock spells?

[cornholioprime]

Does Odin know Warlock spells?

No...and it's a good question to ask.

But this is where I repeat what I said earlier about having Kevin and his crew go through his books with a fine-toothed comb.

While by the strict wording in the PFRPG book, Odin wouldn't have been granted the powers of an Elemental -since that section says that Elemental Magic is a 'spell-like' school of magic, and further implies that the majority of Elemental Spells aren't really spells as such and don't actually have Invocation equivalents........


.....the same section on Odin says that he has the powers of a Diabolist...and that is most definitely NOT a spell-based school......


...and he also got those NON-spell powers from Yggdrasil.



Cornholio_Prime -often wonders what legal loopholes Palladium Books would need to jump through in order to rewrite Books written by people whose names are in the list of credits, but who no longer work for the company

[Killer Cyborg]

...and he also got those NON-spell powers from Yggdrasil.

It specifies that he did?
And that it was specifically from this ritual?

Cornholio_Prime -often wonders what legal loopholes Palladium Books would need to jump through in order to rewrite Books written by people whose names are in the list of credits, but who no longer work for the company

Hopefully not many.
But I doubt that they'd clean things up any better than they are now.

[eliakon]

The powers gained from the ritual may vary....if your a full god (or all-father) you may get more power than a 'mere' godling or mortal. Just my thoughts on why Odin's benefits are better than those that others can get.

[drewkitty ~..~]

It's as open to interpretation as what a LLW can learn is. If we argue that Yggdrasil gives Warlock magic, then by same wording we would have to believe LLW can learn warlock spells.

LLW only cast Invocations...a.k.a. Common magic... and those specialty magic spells as specifically stated that they can learn.
There is no interpretation about this in canon.

Individual GM's might be liberal in what spells from specialty magic are available to a LLW. But those are house rules of those GM's.
----------------------------
The most limiting ruling on what spells a char would get from the world tree is only those that are in the RMB and from those books written before the RCB2. Because those are the only spells that were available to chars at the time the RCB2 was written.

[cornholioprime]

...and he also got those NON-spell powers from Yggdrasil.

It specifies that he did?
And that it was specifically from this ritual?

Yep.

Specifically and explicitly.

Page 147 of Pantheons of the Megaverse, under "Experience Level."

One can legitimately argue over what spells a player character can get from Yggdrasil, but clearly the tree potentially doesn't have any real problem bestowing even non-spell magics if it wants to.

The powers gained from the ritual may vary....if your a full god (or all-father) you may get more power than a 'mere' godling or mortal. Just my thoughts on why Odin's benefits are better than those that others can get.

There doesn't seem to be any special provision for extra magic types provided by Yggdrasil for beings of any power level.

Under the circumstances, I can only conclude that Carella made an error in his own work.

[Smooth Operator]

It's as open to interpretation as what a LLW can learn is. If we argue that Yggdrasil gives Warlock magic, then by same wording we would have to believe LLW can learn warlock spells.

I would argue that the Gift of Knowledge is using terms in a very broad sense. Rifts has four basic categories of magic: Spells (spoken), rituals (performed), summoning (either), and special O.C.C. powers (exclusive abilities). I think the Gift of Knowledge gives you the first category.

The most limiting ruling on what spells a char would get from the world tree is only those that are in the RMB and from those books written before the RCB2. Because those are the only spells that were available to chars at the time the RCB2 was written.

I could see that, but that would also mean you're assuming that a spell doesn't exist in the Rifts universe until the spell makes its way into a book.

[Tor]

Odin is evidence that sometimes the Tree can give more than it normally does.

Although I'm not sure he would serve as evidence that the tree can give LESS than it normally does either, in terms of Odin not knowing warlocks.

In terms of "spells" being interpreted to refer to Warlock spells too, I don't even think we can rule that Odin doesn't know Warlock magic.

It's just a stance I take because Warlock magic is consistently listed distinctly from other magic for other gods who know both kinds.

If a god knew "spells 1-5" and "air spells 1-3" it wouldn't make sense to list air since spells 1-5 would cover it, basically.

I'm sure there's an example out there along these lines.

It's as open to interpretation as what a LLW can learn is. If we argue that Yggdrasil gives Warlock magic, then by same wording we would have to believe LLW can learn warlock spells.

LLW only cast Invocations...a.k.a. Common magic... and those specialty magic spells as specifically stated that they can learn. There is no interpretation about this in canon.

Is there a source we can locate where it says LLW can only learn things termed 'invocation'? In RUE it said, I thought, to select "spells".

Thing is, I'm in agreement with you about what they ought to learn, but we need to find explicit terms that make the LLW more restrictive than Yggdrasil.

If no wording exists, then Yggdrasil-Elemental reasoning would apply to LLW.

I would argue that the Gift of Knowledge is using terms in a very broad sense. Rifts has four basic categories of magic: Spells (spoken), rituals (performed), summoning (either), and special O.C.C. powers (exclusive abilities). I think the Gift of Knowledge gives you the first category.

Warlock magic is often termed a 'spell' too, I tend to think it means non-Warlock spells though, just like I would normally assume about any magic unless it referred to a specialty category.

[Smooth Operator]

I would argue that the Gift of Knowledge is using terms in a very broad sense. Rifts has four basic categories of magic: Spells (spoken), rituals (performed), summoning (either), and special O.C.C. powers (exclusive abilities). I think the Gift of Knowledge gives you the first category.

Warlock magic is often termed a 'spell' too, I tend to think it means non-Warlock spells though, just like I would normally assume about any magic unless it referred to a specialty category.

Generally, I would agree with you, but I think the scope of Yggdrasil should be taken into account. Besides, isn't the Elemental Fusionist an example of how you can cast elemental spells without having that link to an elemental?

[drewkitty ~..~]

The most limiting ruling on what spells a char would get from the world tree is only those that are in the RMB and from those books written before the RCB2. Because those are the only spells that were available to chars at the time the RCB2 was written.

I could see that, but that would also mean you're assuming that a spell doesn't exist in the Rifts universe until the spell makes its way into a book.

Canon spells are what are in the published canon. And as I said, that would be the "most limited ruling." I was not saying it was the "canon ruling." It is the individual GMs that have the final ruling about what he or she will allow in his or her game.

[Smooth Operator]

The most limiting ruling on what spells a char would get from the world tree is only those that are in the RMB and from those books written before the RCB2. Because those are the only spells that were available to chars at the time the RCB2 was written.

I could see that, but that would also mean you're assuming that a spell doesn't exist in the Rifts universe until the spell makes its way into a book.

Canon spells are what are in the published canon. And as I said, that would be the "most limited ruling." I was not saying it was the "canon ruling." It is the individual GMs that have the final ruling about what he or she will allow in his or her game.

I understand that. I was using "you" in a general sense. I wasn't under the impression that you were saying that you subscribed to that ruling.

The only point I was trying to make is that Living Fire Magic, for example, existed in the Rifts universe before Mystic Russia (or whatever book it was) was published. It wasn't in the Rifts RPG before the book was published, but it was in the universe. If that's the case, there's no reason to believe Yggdrasil doesn't know that kind of magic.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I for one would, as a GM, limit the spells to just common magic spells (invocation) if a mortal did the Tree thing. The tree thing can very much turn a playable char into an unplayable char. And I would reject almost out of hand a Tree thing Char unless I knew the player well.

[eliakon]

The most limiting ruling on what spells a char would get from the world tree is only those that are in the RMB and from those books written before the RCB2. Because those are the only spells that were available to chars at the time the RCB2 was written.

I could see that, but that would also mean you're assuming that a spell doesn't exist in the Rifts universe until the spell makes its way into a book.

Canon spells are what are in the published canon. And as I said, that would be the "most limited ruling." I was not saying it was the "canon ruling." It is the individual GMs that have the final ruling about what he or she will allow in his or her game.

I understand that. I was using "you" in a general sense. I wasn't under the impression that you were saying that you subscribed to that ruling.

The only point I was trying to make is that Living Fire Magic, for example, existed in the Rifts universe before Mystic Russia (or whatever book it was) was published. It wasn't in the Rifts RPG before the book was published, but it was in the universe. If that's the case, there's no reason to believe Yggdrasil doesn't know that kind of magic.

There is also no reason necessarily to assume it DOES know it. At the time of publication there were several forms of magic that were known that did NOT get mentioned (Circles, Wards, African Witch Spells, African Shaman/Dance Magic). This combined with the fact that several beings are listed as knowing all spells levels x-y AND having elemental spells of an overlapping level (And the comments about necromancy and temporal magic) make me think that the intention was to just give the so-called common, or invocation spells.
The other reason I think it was limited is that otherwise it makes the godling magic option insanely powerful (since they also know 'all spells of their level') which would then, by this same wording mean that a leyline walker option (or warlock option for that matter) all spells of all classes.....which I do not think was the intent.
But YMMV.

[Smooth Operator]

The only point I was trying to make is that Living Fire Magic, for example, existed in the Rifts universe before Mystic Russia (or whatever book it was) was published. It wasn't in the Rifts RPG before the book was published, but it was in the universe. If that's the case, there's no reason to believe Yggdrasil doesn't know that kind of magic.

There is also no reason necessarily to assume it DOES know it. At the time of publication there were several forms of magic that were known that did NOT get mentioned (Circles, Wards, African Witch Spells, African Shaman/Dance Magic). This combined with the fact that several beings are listed as knowing all spells levels x-y AND having elemental spells of an overlapping level (And the comments about necromancy and temporal magic) make me think that the intention was to just give the so-called common, or invocation spells.
The other reason I think it was limited is that otherwise it makes the godling magic option insanely powerful (since they also know 'all spells of their level') which would then, by this same wording mean that a leyline walker option (or warlock option for that matter) all spells of all classes.....which I do not think was the intent.
But YMMV.

Circles and wards ARE mentioned. You can read and recognize all wards and circles because of the gift of knowledge. Necromancy and Temporal magic are mentioned separately because you get ALL of those spells regardless of level. That's why those branches of spells were mentioned specifically.

Everything else is under the umbrella of the first ability.

[eliakon]

The only point I was trying to make is that Living Fire Magic, for example, existed in the Rifts universe before Mystic Russia (or whatever book it was) was published. It wasn't in the Rifts RPG before the book was published, but it was in the universe. If that's the case, there's no reason to believe Yggdrasil doesn't know that kind of magic.

There is also no reason necessarily to assume it DOES know it. At the time of publication there were several forms of magic that were known that did NOT get mentioned (Circles, Wards, African Witch Spells, African Shaman/Dance Magic). This combined with the fact that several beings are listed as knowing all spells levels x-y AND having elemental spells of an overlapping level (And the comments about necromancy and temporal magic) make me think that the intention was to just give the so-called common, or invocation spells.
The other reason I think it was limited is that otherwise it makes the godling magic option insanely powerful (since they also know 'all spells of their level') which would then, by this same wording mean that a leyline walker option (or warlock option for that matter) all spells of all classes.....which I do not think was the intent.
But YMMV.

Circles and wards ARE mentioned. You can read and recognize all wards and circles because of the gift of knowledge. Necromancy and Temporal magic are mentioned separately because you get ALL of those spells regardless of level. That's why those branches of spells were mentioned specifically.

Everything else is under the umbrella of the first ability.

But you can only read wards, not make them use them, same with wards. So already that's two forms of magic you CANT use.
Which at the VERY least puts is on pretty firm ground to rule out magic that isn't 'spells' from the available forms that can be gained.
This still leaves the doubt of if its 'all invocation type spells' or 'all spells of any type'.

[Tor]

I think the scope of Yggdrasil should be taken into account.

You mean the scope that never once indicates access to Warlock magic when it would be very simple to do so?

isn't the Elemental Fusionist an example of how you can cast elemental spells without having that link to an elemental?

"Globe of Daylight" is a warlock spell, non-warlocks have always had access to warlock magic, it's just usually had lower stats and stuff.

I'm of the impression that only Warlocks get the superior-efficiency versions of many spells, and exclusive access to some of them.

[GM Jay]

Had a character actually survive this back in the day. GM was like are you Odin? I'm like no. He's like well Odin got all that because he was a God sacrificing himself to himself, you get to pick all abilities of one magic OCC because you were a mortal sacrificing himself to himself. I was a ley line walker at the time. So my smart ass picked diablolist. Worked out really well. Still lost an eye, but that built character. Another easy way out for the GM would be to simply make character/survivor a Godling.