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The Magi OCCs are limited to mortal SDC creatures.

Lizard Mages are mortal (even on Rifts when their lifespans are extended, they don't live forever) so it seems like what is limiting them is being SDC.

Seeing as how Leizak is a Temporal Wizard and knows all Temporal magic, it is likely that he knows the spell Universal Balance from Spirit West.

Assuming this is the case, he should be able to cast it on any MDC creatures (with limited lifespans) who want to become magi, by turning them into SDC creatures.

Of course since the spell doesn't last forever, it would have to be made permanent.

Surely with all the Diabolists hanging out in Kingsdale, at least some portion of the 'trained in magic' population of Dweomer could pull off a permanence ward. With 1000 dragons and over thrice as many demons living in Dweomer, obtaining bones to make them from shouldn't be THAT hard. Since a Lizard Mage can have two magic OCCs, they could even select Diabolist as their first and create the ward themself via bartering for components with their fellow citizens.

Unfortunately, I just remembered those things don't work on supernatural guys or creatures of magic, so you'd instead have to make a TTGD modified version of Universal Balance with an extended duration (and it's less likely Leizak would know such a variant).

If a Lizard Mage ended up becoming a Lord Magus, they could get a heck of a lot of MDC eventually this way.

If a Lizard Mage ended up becoming a High Magus, they could make a heck of a lot of Golems, which even low-level High Magi are capable of.

Since Universal Balance only works on MDC creatures who are supernatural, unfortunately it's inherently designed to be incompatible with permanence wards.

I bet Dweomer has a LOT of golems! Even for mundane humans who become High Magi, they would be very helpful for lugging around stones and stuff, aiding in construction, etc.

With necromancers usually forbidden (FoMp16, or possibly it's out-of-control ones who are usually forbidden, a bit unclear on that) and it being considered distasteful in general (FoMp21) even though High Magi should know how to make mummies/zombies, I get the impression that this might not be often done. Or if it is, they probably dress them up in armor so that it doesn't offend the populace, and have them sequestered away or used as an emergency force.

Of course with so many people knowing restore life, and with zombies only working on the recently dead, it's unlikely that would be done, except perhaps as an optional sentence for criminals. Mummies could possibly be more common though.

On a somewhat related note... the High Magi who went to Stormspire are mentioned as agreeing to not make Automatons. I don't see this specified for the High Magi in the Mystic Triad who founded Magestar (I think he was initially planned to be a human but got changed to a Dwarf) so with the population of Techno-Wizards at Magestar I'm wondering if Dan Ironforge is making automatons for the TWs to use.

Personally I would say that it doesn't work. I.e. they are not really SDC beings, just MDC beings under the effects of a magic.

eliakon wrote:Personally I would say that it doesn't work. I.e. they are not really SDC beings, just MDC beings under the effects of a magic.

Total agreement.

This is rather like arguing that a Raksasha or Deevil Lord, indefinitely metamorphosized to resemble a human in every way, should suddenly be eligible for becoming a Cosmo-Knight.

It's not like that at all. Raksasha remain supernatural beings when metamorphed, beings affected by the spell don't remain MDC.

Tor wrote:It's not like that at all. Raksasha remain supernatural beings when metamorphed, beings affected by the spell don't remain MDC.

The overall point being made here is that spells with class/racial/alignment restrictions work on what you actually ARE, not what you're temporarily 'pretending' to be through magic. (A vampire that luckily still has use of magic spells and knows "Metamorphosis" still wouldn't be able to walk in daylight or go through running water, no matter what he turned himself into, for example.)

The limitations in various O.C.C.s put in place are there for a variety of in-game ("you can't fool magic that easily") and out-of-game ("we the authors don't want any players running around with munchkin-hybrid characters designed to deliberately get around our restrictions") reasons.

The specific OCC's where you have to be a non-supernatural SDC creature in order to qualify tend to be sponsored by Deities who are more than capable of preventing tricksters from entering the ranks. I believe that's the case with the Dweomer deities and the classes they sponsor.

cornholioprime wrote:spells with class/racial/alignment restrictions work on what you actually ARE, not what you're temporarily 'pretending' to be through magic.

This isn't pretending to be SDC, you are literally made into SDC by this spell.

cornholioprime wrote:A vampire that luckily still has use of magic spells and knows "Metamorphosis" still wouldn't be able to walk in daylight or go through running water, no matter what he turned himself into, for example.

That's because it only gives form, not properties. Being changed to SDC means you get the properties of SDC. This isn't some dragon pretending to be an SDC human but who is still MDC.

cornholioprime wrote:and out-of-game ("we the authors don't want any players running around with munchkin-hybrid characters designed to deliberately get around our restrictions") reasons.

Implying that Lizard Mages would otherwise be balanced walks in the park?

Galroth wrote:Deities who are more than capable of preventing tricksters from entering the ranks.

Nobody's untrickable.

Tor wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:spells with class/racial/alignment restrictions work on what you actually ARE, not what you're temporarily 'pretending' to be through magic.

This isn't pretending to be SDC, you are literally made into SDC by this spell.

cornholioprime wrote:A vampire that luckily still has use of magic spells and knows "Metamorphosis" still wouldn't be able to walk in daylight or go through running water, no matter what he turned himself into, for example.

That's because it only gives form, not properties. Being changed to SDC means you get the properties of SDC. This isn't some dragon pretending to be an SDC human but who is still MDC.

cornholioprime wrote:and out-of-game ("we the authors don't want any players running around with munchkin-hybrid characters designed to deliberately get around our restrictions") reasons.

Implying that Lizard Mages would otherwise be balanced walks in the park?

Galroth wrote:Deities who are more than capable of preventing tricksters from entering the ranks.

Nobody's untrickable.

I suppose you could trick them, but I doubt you could do it long term. What the consequences of trying to enter one of the Magi classes under false pretenses would be up to the individual GM.

Have the Lizard Mage get infected with the "Achillies Heel" disease from MIF, turns MDC creatures into SDC creatures

Megaverse in Flames is out?? I was puzzled by your acronym and had to scour my brain, since we don't tend to use them for unpublished works and I was not aware.

Oops, just looked at it again. It's not Achillies Heel, it's called Achilles' Syndrome.The Disease lasts for the lifespan of the infected, unless cured by magic. A restoration spell seems to be the "easiest" way to cure it. Other ways include an elixer from the Splugorth, the healing touch of a Deity or being killed and then rezz'ed.

Would be fun to infect a demon with Undeath first and then stack this on it.

Although... trying to remember if that high-level necro vampire spell can work on supies... would be a nice go-around if you were forced to SDC.

I would say yes. THeir is a example in one of the books of a titan being a battle magus. Can't remember which one though.

That sounds interesting, I recall seeing a Titan NPC in a book I read recently but can't recall which...