A GM/player's observation.

[SpiritInterface]

I have noticed a preponderance of players relying on body armor and firearms no matter what their OCC. RCC/PCC is. It doesn't matter the Palladium genre is except Palladium Fantasy that unless prohibited by class the characters usually end up in the heaviest armor while packing the biggest gun available. Heroes games where the heroes look like a heavy assault SWAT team, Rifts games where the magic casters and the psi's are only a little less armored but just as heavily armed as the infantry troopers. As a player I try to not do this and as a GM I tend to discourage this.

The problem as I see it is that at lower levels hero powers, magic spells, and psi abilities just are not as powerful as firearm.

[asbjorn]

I have noticed the same thing. In a S.D.C. environment some weapons seem overpowered, especially when reading The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons. One option is reducing damage by one die. The other is reducing access to high powered weapons.

[Killer Cyborg]

The problem as I see it is that at lower levels hero powers, magic spells, and psi abilities just are not as powerful as firearm.

You see it as a problem.
I see it as a feature.

[Alrik Vas]

I have to agree with KC on this one. Tech weapons are supposed to be dangerous. Though you'll note that proficiency of use is still a limiting factor. Most caters don't have access to heavy weapon types, nor is it something they tend toward even when they do.

[SpiritInterface]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

[Glistam]

I agree with you on your first example, but not the second.

[Mechghost]

I try to keep with what's appropriate for the character (location and background included), examples are a Gunfighter I have that is an MDC being - armed to the teeth but only wears a light MDC duster, another character I'm running right now is an Operator, most of the time he is wearing very light MDC armor and carries a pistol (doesn't even have WP E-Rifle), he does have a heavier suit of EBA and a plasma ejector but doesn't tote them around all the time, just when it becomes necessary. The last magic type I used had a suit of medium MDC non-EBA and used a TW pistol but used his magic for the most part.

I miss the "old days" where not having all the firepower a character could carry was the norm and not everyone was a "combat specialist" first and a "whatever class" second

[eliakon]

I find that this is a classic example of 'finding what your looking for' When the solutions in a game tend to be about killing the problem, then the best solution is to kill it faster. And that means to that the problems will try to kill you faster. This creates a feed back effect. The GM uses monsters and combat as the hook in the games, the players then use force as their solution....and in both cases the optimum force in this game tends to be tech based and there is no armor like armor......
The only real way to 'solve' it is for everyone involved to CHOOSE to change it. If the GM agrees to provide problems that don't need to be solved with guns, and the players agree not to try to solve them with guns. But if there is a fight to the death every session, then yes, every one will pack the heaviest armor and heaviest weapons they can.

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

CAF: Fire won't protect you from bullets.
For that matter, I think that it'd be the more humane thing to just shoot somebody to death rather than burn them to death.

A 1st level line walker in Heavy Deadboy is going to have skill penalties, but sometimes that's worth it for the extra armor.
Either way, the gun is just a good idea, the way most people run Rifts. If you're in a war-zone, you gear up for war.

[SpiritInterface]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

CAF: Fire won't protect you from bullets.
For that matter, I think that it'd be the more humane thing to just shoot somebody to death rather than burn them to death.

A 1st level line walker in Heavy Deadboy is going to have skill penalties, but sometimes that's worth it for the extra armor.
Either way, the gun is just a good idea, the way most people run Rifts. If you're in a war-zone, you gear up for war.

So why play anything other than a soldier?

[Killer Cyborg]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

CAF: Fire won't protect you from bullets.
For that matter, I think that it'd be the more humane thing to just shoot somebody to death rather than burn them to death.

A 1st level line walker in Heavy Deadboy is going to have skill penalties, but sometimes that's worth it for the extra armor.
Either way, the gun is just a good idea, the way most people run Rifts. If you're in a war-zone, you gear up for war.

So why play anything other than a soldier?

Life isn't always a war zone.
Depending on your GM, anyway.

Also, if that 1st level line walker grows up, he might no need those kinds of toys, even in a war.

[Alrik Vas]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

CAF: Fire won't protect you from bullets.
For that matter, I think that it'd be the more humane thing to just shoot somebody to death rather than burn them to death.

A 1st level line walker in Heavy Deadboy is going to have skill penalties, but sometimes that's worth it for the extra armor.
Either way, the gun is just a good idea, the way most people run Rifts. If you're in a war-zone, you gear up for war.

So why play anything other than a soldier?

Capability. Soldier type OCC's are completely gear dependent unless they're a demi-god or something. Magic users can do amazing things without tech in hand, and that's their advantage. They can also sustain doing amazing things for long periods with their magic. While some kind of sticky grenade is one time use, Carpet of Adhesion can be recast over and over, for instance.

[eliakon]

I guess that I am the only one who is disappointed in seeing the 2nd level hero who's major power is 'Control Elemental Force: Fire' kitted out in SWAT armor packing a M4 carbine. Or the 1st level 'Ley Line Walker' in Heavy Dead Boy armor. packing a CP-40 laser rifle.

CAF: Fire won't protect you from bullets.
For that matter, I think that it'd be the more humane thing to just shoot somebody to death rather than burn them to death.

A 1st level line walker in Heavy Deadboy is going to have skill penalties, but sometimes that's worth it for the extra armor.
Either way, the gun is just a good idea, the way most people run Rifts. If you're in a war-zone, you gear up for war.

So why play anything other than a soldier?

If you look at the pictures of a real world military base in a warzone everyone is wearing body armor, has weapons, ammo pouches etc....
But they are not all Infantry (what would be in Rifts 'soldiers') They are also mechanics, and medics, intelligence, computer techs, drone pilots, and file clerks......But in a war zone, you gear for war. If your in harms way, then you get ready for harm.
Gear is what you HAVE
Character is what you ARE

[grandmaster z0b]

I don't mind mages using laser rifles in Rifts, however (apart from range) I'm not sure why they would bother when Magic Net or Carpet of Adhesion are way more useful. A TW Magic Net/CoA gun can improve the range of those spells anyway. A Ley Line Walker in DeadBoy or any other EBA armor is going to get penalties to casting spells. Of course those penalties aren't very prohibitive but generally my players tend to avoid EBA if they are spell casters.

In the Rifts session I played on the weekend, all the combat was resolved by either melee or magic net/CoA. This was mainly because they were in an urban environment (Chi-Town Burbs) rather than the wilderness where combat starts 500 yards away and they were trying to avoid collateral damage. It's also because when you combine Hand to Hand skills with ancient WPs and a high PP the bonus to strike becomes amazingly high whereas the bonus to strike with modern WPs is much lower, and because they were trying to hit Juicers and Crazies this became very important.

In any case I agree that it feels off if superheroes are using SWAT gear rather than their natural powers if you're going for a traditional comic book feel. However that's also the choice of the players. Nobody is forcing them to use that equipment, just because it's better doesn't mean they are obliged to use it.

[Alrik Vas]

Though fire powers in particular have advantages. Heat is a great deterrent against melee combatants who are unprotected, and in HU specifically, no one its running around in EBA. Plus heat will cook a fire arm, setting off rounds intentionally. When you flood a room with fire and your enemies die from shooting each other by accident, things just worked out.

[SpiritInterface]

I think my main problem is that "Super Heroes" have stopped looking like Super Heroes, and Mages have stopped looking like Mages. If you are in a Military setting or are playing a Military unit then yeah maybe. But when Heroes groups or ad hoc adventure groups start looking like heavy assault teams and Mages and Psi characters are acting as shooters instead. That's where things seem to have come. I know that as a GM it is not easy to keep it from happening, and that the players need to be reminded what OCC, RCC/PCC they are playing. I am not writing what I am trying to convey well... It just seems that characters are losing their uniqueness.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think my main problem is that "Super Heroes" have stopped looking like Super Heroes, and Mages have stopped looking like Mages. If you are in a Military setting or are playing a Military unit then yeah maybe. But when Heroes groups or ad hoc adventure groups start looking like heavy assault teams and Mages and Psi characters are acting as shooters instead. That's where things seem to have come. I know that as a GM it is not easy to keep it from happening, and that the players need to be reminded what OCC, RCC/PCC they are playing. I am not writing what I am trying to convey well... It just seems that characters are losing their uniqueness.

Stereotypes have stopped looking like stereotypes?

[Alrik Vas]

It seems to be a role vs crunch type thing, yeah. If players don't fully explore their abilities, they'll never master them and continue relying on +x and x damage.
Though I imagine some people just like gadgets and guns more than mystical super powers.

[arouetta]

It seems to be a role vs crunch type thing, yeah. If players don't fully explore their abilities, they'll never master them and continue relying on +x and x damage.

It's growing pains. First level characters suck. But the habits you pick up in using your character pay off in later levels.

Though I imagine some people just like gadgets and guns more than mystical super powers.

A player should seek out games and characters that embrace what he/she likes, rather than take on a roll that is different and then try to force it to be what it's not, like hammering a square peg into a round hole.

[Athos]

The problem as I see it is that at lower levels hero powers, magic spells, and psi abilities just are not as powerful as firearm.

This...

Magic and psionics should be more powerful in a game like Rifts where magic power literally courses over the Earth. But in the game as written, a little kid with a laser pistol can take out the most powerful human mage if they aren't ready with some kind of spell up. Therefore, they wear armor. And until they get very high level spells, they do squat damage; compared to a simple energy rifle, like the Wilk's that does 1d6x10 per shot, they just cannot compete. So they carry a Wilk's.

Even spells like magic net, which gets over used and boring after a while, only wraps up a few or one enemy if they are smart and spread out. There needs to better and more spells, better and more psi abilities, if you want the game to be more than just who has the most and latest tech. But then tech sells books and Palladium happens to be in that business so go figure.

[eliakon]

The problem as I see it is that at lower levels hero powers, magic spells, and psi abilities just are not as powerful as firearm.

This...

Magic and psionics should be more powerful in a game like Rifts where magic power literally courses over the Earth. But in the game as written, a little kid with a laser pistol can take out the most powerful human mage if they aren't ready with some kind of spell up. Therefore, they wear armor. And until they get very high level spells, they do squat damage; compared to a simple energy rifle, like the Wilk's that does 1d6x10 per shot, they just cannot compete. So they carry a Wilk's.

Even spells like magic net, which gets over used and boring after a while, only wraps up a few or one enemy if they are smart and spread out. There needs to better and more spells, better and more psi abilities, if you want the game to be more than just who has the most and latest tech. But then tech sells books and Palladium happens to be in that business so go figure.

Why? Why should magic, which is already the best at stealth, and buffing, and healing, and sensing, and debuffing ALSO be the best at damage? I mean if magic is the best at EVERYTHING why do anything ELSE? And lets face it there are LOTS of 'powerful' magics in Rifts. You can wipe out entire armies with a single spell...if you have the right spell. Its just that for some reason people want the low level "I can cast this spell all day" stuff to be MMO level nukes.

[Killer Cyborg]

For that matter, why should mages be gun-proof without casting a spell?

[flatline]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

Word.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, the only reason you want to look like a mage is if you are advertising...because you're arrogant or some kind of god of magic, or both. ...or you've got a good reason to make people think you're a caster when you actually aren't.

Deception is first in the order of battle.

[SpiritInterface]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

[Killer Cyborg]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

I don't think that your take on that is the same as other people's take.

[flatline]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Religion is for the weak.

I treat magic as another science.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Where do you get the idea that magic is a pseudo religion? They aren't worshiping it or anything they just have to accept without doubt that it's real and works for it to work for them (unlike those who have magic as an inherent part of them, they don't have to believe it exists and works for their spell abilities to function). Even if they did worship it it wouldn't mean that they'd have to go around advertising they have it or could only use it to deal with situations. Even in AD&D mages still use non-magical means of doing things unless the mage himself has some sort of quirk, and the multi-class mages have zero issues with using things like armor if their race makes it possible so they can access their magic as well and sometimes even when they don't.

[Alrik Vas]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

I don't ignore it. It takes a special kind of person to see beyond the veil and use their own determination rather than belief...

It's just that those folks are usually player characters.

[Damian Magecraft]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Even in PF my mages wear armor.
"it is the dead arrogant fool who allows pride to prevent the use every tool at his disposal."

[SpiritInterface]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Even in PF my mages wear armor.
"it is the dead arrogant fool who allows pride to prevent the use every tool at his disposal."

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

[Killer Cyborg]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Even in PF my mages wear armor.
"it is the dead arrogant fool who allows pride to prevent the use every tool at his disposal."

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

They don't have Ley Line Walkers in PF.

[Noon]

Sure in heroes unlimited you might want to stick to the 'spandex hero' genre. And an armour system doesn't lend to that terribly well.

But that's the system encouraging them to armour up and get big guns - I wouldn't discourage someone for doing that when at the same time the rule set is encouraging them to do that. Otherwise it's just painful mixed messages.

[Alrik Vas]

Sure in heroes unlimited you might want to stick to the 'spandex hero' genre. And an armour system doesn't lend to that terribly well.

But that's the system encouraging them to armour up and get big guns - I wouldn't discourage someone for doing that when at the same time the rule set is encouraging them to do that. Otherwise it's just painful mixed messages.

An excellent point, my good noon.

My question is how do you send a clear message stating what you DO want?

[Damian Magecraft]

Sure in heroes unlimited you might want to stick to the 'spandex hero' genre. And an armour system doesn't lend to that terribly well.

But that's the system encouraging them to armour up and get big guns - I wouldn't discourage someone for doing that when at the same time the rule set is encouraging them to do that. Otherwise it's just painful mixed messages.

An excellent point, my good noon.

My question is how do you send a clear message stating what you DO want?

By discussing it calmly with the players in advance.

[Alrik Vas]

That's a bit generalized, but sure.

[Damian Magecraft]

That's a bit generalized, but sure.

as an example.
When I run HU I tell my players up front I run a four color world and expect the cardinal trope to be observed.
Cardinal Trope: Super Heroes do not intentionally kill.
By doing that I avoid a whole host of drama.

[SpiritInterface]

If I am a mage, I go out of my way to not look like I'm a mage.

Don't advertise your advantages.

--flatline

So you totally ignore the whole magic is the ultimate power pseudo religion that enables magic users to be able to use magic?

Even in PF my mages wear armor.
"it is the dead arrogant fool who allows pride to prevent the use every tool at his disposal."

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

They don't have Ley Line Walkers in PF.

Who mentioned Ley Line Walkers? I mentioned a type of mage armor.

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

[Killer Cyborg]

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

They don't have Ley Line Walkers in PF.

Who mentioned Ley Line Walkers?

YOU did.

I mentioned a type of mage armor.

Yeah, you mentioned "Leyline Walker concealed armor."

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

They sure as hell don't run around in Leyline Walker Concealed Armor either, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it.

[SpiritInterface]

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

They don't have Ley Line Walkers in PF.

Who mentioned Ley Line Walkers?

YOU did.

I mentioned a type of mage armor.

Yeah, you mentioned "Leyline Walker concealed armor."

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

They sure as hell don't run around in Leyline Walker Concealed Armor either, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it.

Well class we can clearly see who hasn't done their homework...

Under standard equipment for Ley Line Walkers is 'Ley Line Walker Concealed Armor' a specific type of armor.

And as far as I have read mages in PF are VERY LIMITED in the types of armor they can wear.

PS. my original post was about all of Palladium Megaverse and not Palladium Fantasy RPG specifically.

What I said in my original post was that I have noticed in allot of Palladium game I had been invited to play in in the last few years is that everyone including the characters who are a Men of Magic OCC, Psionic PCC, "Super Heroes" classes have been wearing the heaviest armors around and carrying the biggest guns around. That mages aren't mages, psi's aren't psi's, and heroes aren't heroes anymore, they're stormtroopers with different skill sets.

You don't see mechanics and cooks as heavily armored and armed as ground combat troops. Yes they wear body armor but it is nowhere as heavy or as covering. As it stands it would be the equivalent of every member of a party wearing a bomb disposal armor suit and light machine gun or a multi grenade launcher regardless of their training.

I don't know if this is because of power creep in the later books, player munchkinism, or bad GMing. When in a game the team magic casters actions in the round are pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, "oh yeah I can throw a spell" casts light weight spell, pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, just because he wanted to get in on the action why does the team need the magic caster and why is the player playing him.

Someone asked where I got that men of magic have a deep pseudo-religious belief in magic, it comes from Kevin saying that they do. Saying that it takes that kind deep of belief in magic in order to be able to use magic. That those who use magic have such a deep arrogance in magic over tech that they use tech only when given no other choice.

As for heroes that is a whole other rant.

[Killer Cyborg]

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

They sure as hell don't run around in Leyline Walker Concealed Armor either, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it.

Well class we can clearly see who hasn't done their homework...

Yes.

Under standard equipment for Ley Line Walkers is 'Ley Line Walker Concealed Armor' a specific type of armor.

No shirt, Shylock.
But, as I pointed out already, that doesn't apply to PFRPG, because there aren't any Line Walkers there, so it wouldn't make a lick of sense for the mages there to have Ley Line Walker Armor.

And as far as I have read mages in PF are VERY LIMITED in the types of armor they can wear.

Right. And that limit would be light armor, along the lines of cloth and leather... NOT other-dimensional mega-damage armor from Rifts earth.

PS. my original post was about all of Palladium Megaverse and not Palladium Fantasy RPG specifically.

Yes.
But Damien was discussing his characters in Palladium Fantasy RPG, and you responded to THAT by talking about Ley Line Walker Armor, which wouldn't apply.

I know what your original post was.
I know what Ley Line Walker Armor is.
I know what PFRPG is, and what the mages there wear.
But NONE of that explains why, when Damien said, "Even in PF my mages wear armor,"
You responded with:
"There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy."

I thought maybe you hadn't noticed that he was talking about Palladium Fantasy, so I highlighted that's what he was talking about, giving you an opportunity to say something like, "My bad..." if you'd made a mistake or oversight.
OR, if you hadn't, then you had an opportunity to elaborate and explain what you were talking about- why you were bringing up Line Walker Armor in response to Damien talking about what his mages do in PFRPG.

Instead, you didn't do either of those things, and decided to quibble over the distinction between "Ley Line Walker Armor" and "Ley Line Walkers," as if it made any sense for that armor to exist in a setting with no Line Walkers, then for you to get indignant with me, and to act like I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Care to try again? Explain why you were talking about Rifts armor to somebody who was talking about PFRPG?
Or maybe just let it drop while you're behind?

[Killer Cyborg]

What I said in my original post was that I have noticed in allot of Palladium game I had been invited to play in in the last few years is that everyone including the characters who are a Men of Magic OCC, Psionic PCC, "Super Heroes" classes have been wearing the heaviest armors around and carrying the biggest guns around. That mages aren't mages, psi's aren't psi's, and heroes aren't heroes anymore, they're stormtroopers with different skill sets.

Since you brought this back up, directly to me, I'll expand on my previous comments.

I think that the problem is unrealistic expectations on your part.
As people have pointed out, the appropriate gear in a combat zone is combat gear, the best that you can reasonably carry.
You seem to have in your mind an unrealistic vision where wizards wear wizard clothing, warriors wear warrior clothing, and everybody's fashion and accessories fit into neat little stereotypes, but that's not how the real world works, and it's not how a game world is going to work unless you happen to find a gaming group that has exactly your same set of stereotypes.

You don't see mechanics and cooks as heavily armored and armed as ground combat troops.

You also don't see them facing regular combat.
If your wizard PCs are hanging back in a cave, where nobody's really shooting at them, and if they're the types to run and hide and let the professionals take care of things when the fighting starts, then yeah, give them light armor.
But don't expect anybody who is expecting to enter combat to think, "Eh. This isn't my MOS, so I won't gear up as heavily as everybody else... I want people to KNOW that I'm a mechanic, after all."

The reason why some people in the military have lighter weapons and armor than standard infantry is because they're not expecting a fight.
PCs as a rule are expecting a fight. The game is more or less built around having a series of regular combats as the core of every adventure.
You can work around combat, and you as a GM can avoid having ANY if you like, but overall the game is a combat game, and the players know it.
And the PCs run into trouble often enough that they'd know it too... Unless you're actually running adventures where a reasonable PC wouldn't actually be expecting combat, in which case you are the awesome exception to the normal hack-and-slashers that RPGs attract.

Yes they wear body armor but it is nowhere as heavy or as covering. As it stands it would be the equivalent of every member of a party wearing a bomb disposal armor suit and light machine gun or a multi grenade launcher regardless of their training.

If there's reasonable expectation of being attacked by masses of explosive-wielding enemies, and you have the gear, why wouldn't you give everybody a bomb suit and a LMG or grenade launcher?
When the crap's about to hit the fan, everybody needs to gear up if they want to survive.

I don't know if this is because of power creep in the later books, player munchkinism, or bad GMing. When in a game the team magic casters actions in the round are pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, "oh yeah I can throw a spell" casts light weight spell, pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, just because he wanted to get in on the action why does the team need the magic caster and why is the player playing him.

A BIG part of this IMO is the misperception that mages are supposed to use magic for everything, starting at first level.
Which is silly, because it's not as good as tech when it comes to dishing out raw damage on a regular basis.
Magic is about versatility, not firepower.
When you need to fly, or turn invisible, or make the ground super-sticky to stop an enemy vehicle, that's when you use magic.
You don't waste it on something as mundane as blasting something for Xd6 MD, not when you can just pick up a gun and do the same job.
Just like there's a time and a place for a Vagabond to Eyeball-A-Fella, but that time and place is NOT in the middle of a firefight, instead of picking up a gun and shooting somebody.

Look at Lord of The Rings.
95% of the time, Gandalf used his sword, a staff, or fireworks to deal with a problem.
That other 5% of the time... those were the times he saved his PPE for.

Someone asked where I got that men of magic have a deep pseudo-religious belief in magic, it comes from Kevin saying that they do. Saying that it takes that kind deep of belief in magic in order to be able to use magic. That those who use magic have such a deep arrogance in magic over tech that they use tech only when given no other choice.

Right. As I said, your personal take on things doesn't seem to be the way other people take things.
If you want to quote the book on the subject, you might notice that it doesn't actually say what you think that it does.
And even if it does, it contradicts it someplace else.

The long and the short of it- the reason why we're scratching our collective heads at your previous statement- is because "The first step is believing that magic is real and that one can master the knowledge and will to control it" (RUE 185) does NOT mean "Magic is the ultimate power" or "Magic is a pseudo-religion."
Neither does any of the other stuff in that section of RUE.

Neither, for that matter, does the misguided essay/rant that some fanboy got published in the BoM with KS's personal approval.
All that Kev really agrees with there is the idea that mages should like magic... and nobody here is disagreeing with that.
We just think, like Kev and the books repeatedly state and show in a large number of ways, that there's nothing about liking magic that means that it's your only trick, nor that you forsake technology in favor of magic in inappropriate situations.

For example:
RUE 113
Ley Line Walkers are inquisitive and open to new ideas, people, and philosophies. Many are literate, study areas of science and have no aversion to using high-tech weapons, vehicles, and equipment.

I can pull a LONG list of examples and citations elaborating on that theme, but that's the long and the short of it- mages can (and often DO) enjoy technology in addition to magic.
Outside of places like Dweomer, and other pretty fanatical places, mages like technology.
That's why they get so much of it in their starting equipment.

So... why does the team NEED a caster?
Hell, maybe they don't. It all depends on the nature of the mission/quest/adventure/campaign.
But maybe they need somebody who knows where the ley lines are.
Maybe they need somebody to rift them all home and keep them from getting stranded in an alternate dimension.
Maybe they need somebody to Magic Net the enemies, so they can be captured alive (and/or with loot intact).
Maybe they need somebody to break a curse.
Maybe they need somebody to throw up a protective forcefield around the party in an emergency.
Maybe they need somebody who can turn invisible.
Maybe they need somebody who can fly without a jet pack.
Maybe they need somebody who can summon Shadow Beasts for recon and/or defense.
Maybe they need somebody who can astrally travel.
Maybe they need somebody with telekinesis, and the Psychic was sick that day.
Maybe they need any number of things that magic is really GOOD at, but that tech isn't so hot at.

Why's a party of PCs ever need a Rogue Scholar?
So that he can start teaching children literacy when a firefight breaks out?
Or maybe it's so that he can decode the ancient writing and bypass the trap before the rest of the party triggers it. Maybe it's so he can decode that treasure map. Maybe it's so that he can make friends with that tribe of D-Bees using his anthropology skills.

Mages aren't combat gods- they're skill-monkeys. They have special abilities and knowledge that the party might not need 80% of the time... but that's invaluable that other 20% of the time.
Or maybe they're not that useful at all, because the GM isn't giving them the right opportunities and challenges (or the players aren't recognizing them).
There's no guarantee that any one class is going to be useful in every game.

But one of the NICE things about Rifts is that pretty much anybody can pick up a gun, slap on some armor, and help out in a firefight.
Beats the hell out of early D&D, where a mage gets 1 spell per day (Magic Missile, for 1d4 damage), and then has to enter combat with his 1d4 HP, using his dagger (1d4 damage) in melee combat, guarded by his mighty robes (no AC bonus) and probably get killed by a kobold.
OR he can just do pretty much nothing (maybe hurl some darts!) for most of a 24 hour period, waiting to use that one spell.
You probably never experienced that kind of thing, but that was the standard for mages in RPGs when Rifts hit the scene.
Mages were practically useless in combat at low levels, and had to spend a LOT of time running and hiding. The only reason to play a mage was to endure the crappy low levels in the hopes that you survived long enough to become a room-clearing powerhouse at high levels.
Rifts is kind of the same way, in that mages start off without much power, and they gain it as they level up.
Call Lightning can do 1d6x10 MD, with no chance of miss, when cast by a 10th level mage. That's not too shabby!
But in Rifts, in the meanwhile, mages can at least use armor and guns to survive.
As I said the first time, that's not a bug, that's a feature.

[SpiritInterface]

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

They sure as hell don't run around in Leyline Walker Concealed Armor either, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it.

Well class we can clearly see who hasn't done their homework...

Yes.

Under standard equipment for Ley Line Walkers is 'Ley Line Walker Concealed Armor' a specific type of armor.

No shirt, Shylock.
But, as I pointed out already, that doesn't apply to PFRPG, because there aren't any Line Walkers there, so it wouldn't make a lick of sense for the mages there to have Ley Line Walker Armor.

And as far as I have read mages in PF are VERY LIMITED in the types of armor they can wear.

Right. And that limit would be light armor, along the lines of cloth and leather... NOT other-dimensional mega-damage armor from Rifts earth.

PS. my original post was about all of Palladium Megaverse and not Palladium Fantasy RPG specifically.

Yes.
But Damien was discussing his characters in Palladium Fantasy RPG, and you responded to THAT by talking about Ley Line Walker Armor, which wouldn't apply.

I know what your original post was.
I know what Ley Line Walker Armor is.
I know what PFRPG is, and what the mages there wear.
But NONE of that explains why, when Damien said, "Even in PF my mages wear armor,"
You responded with:
"There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy."

I thought maybe you hadn't noticed that he was talking about Palladium Fantasy, so I highlighted that's what he was talking about, giving you an opportunity to say something like, "My bad..." if you'd made a mistake or oversight.
OR, if you hadn't, then you had an opportunity to elaborate and explain what you were talking about- why you were bringing up Line Walker Armor in response to Damien talking about what his mages do in PFRPG.

Instead, you didn't do either of those things, and decided to quibble over the distinction between "Ley Line Walker Armor" and "Ley Line Walkers," as if it made any sense for that armor to exist in a setting with no Line Walkers, then for you to get indignant with me, and to act like I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Care to try again? Explain why you were talking about Rifts armor to somebody who was talking about PFRPG?
Or maybe just let it drop while you're behind?

Well since I did not understand Damien's point because I never said that mages can't wear armor I guess I misinterpreted the point of his post. Which made it seem as if he was excusing mages wearing any armor they want.

[Killer Cyborg]

Now, IF you're running combat-light games, where there's maybe one or two easy combat per adventure, and everybody is STILL gearing up to the maximum, then I'd say that the players are a good part of the problem.
But it's easy enough to resolve- just have things play out realistically. Have authorities crack down on them for being decked out in warzone gear while they're in a library, or whatever.
Have other people look at them funny, like they're maybe a bit deranged for having all the unnecessary weapons and armor.

But in order for that to work, it really does have to be unnecessary in the context of the game.

[eliakon]

There is a big difference between Leyline Walker concealed armor and heavy Deadboy.

They don't have Ley Line Walkers in PF.

Who mentioned Ley Line Walkers?

YOU did.

I mentioned a type of mage armor.

Yeah, you mentioned "Leyline Walker concealed armor."

Even in "PF" Men of Magic DO NOT run around in Full Platemail Armor.

They sure as hell don't run around in Leyline Walker Concealed Armor either, so I'm not sure why you're talking about it.

Well class we can clearly see who hasn't done their homework...

Under standard equipment for Ley Line Walkers is 'Ley Line Walker Concealed Armor' a specific type of armor.

And as far as I have read mages in PF are VERY LIMITED in the types of armor they can wear.

PS. my original post was about all of Palladium Megaverse and not Palladium Fantasy RPG specifically.

What I said in my original post was that I have noticed in allot of Palladium game I had been invited to play in in the last few years is that everyone including the characters who are a Men of Magic OCC, Psionic PCC, "Super Heroes" classes have been wearing the heaviest armors around and carrying the biggest guns around. That mages aren't mages, psi's aren't psi's, and heroes aren't heroes anymore, they're stormtroopers with different skill sets.

You don't see mechanics and cooks as heavily armored and armed as ground combat troops. Yes they wear body armor but it is nowhere as heavy or as covering. As it stands it would be the equivalent of every member of a party wearing a bomb disposal armor suit and light machine gun or a multi grenade launcher regardless of their training.

Actually I am going to have to disagree here. Since I was in the Army, I was a support MOS, and I had the exact same body armor as the infantry guys.....and a grenade launcher....my buddy (also a support MOS) carried a light machine gun. So yeah.....

I don't know if this is because of power creep in the later books, player munchkinism, or bad GMing. When in a game the team magic casters actions in the round are pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, "oh yeah I can throw a spell" casts light weight spell, pulse laser burst, pulse laser burst, just because he wanted to get in on the action why does the team need the magic caster and why is the player playing him.

How about none of the above? Its not power creep, its not munckinisim, and its not a bad GM. In many settings though it IS just the way things are. ESPECIALLY in Rifts. Especially since Magic is NOT a damage dealer, magic does other stuff tech does damage....bring a gun. And since its almost impossible to have magic defensive spells up all the time, you better either wear armor, or like making new characters. The mage is using a gun in a gun fight...because using spells there is usually pointless. And often its a waste of PPE. Save your magic for something that you CANT do with tech. Like heal a wound, or fix a broke suit of armor, or predict the future, or turn invisible, or control someones mind, or kill a person through armor, or summon a spirit, or teleport, or......

Someone asked where I got that men of magic have a deep pseudo-religious belief in magic, it comes from Kevin saying that they do. Saying that it takes that kind deep of belief in magic in order to be able to use magic. That those who use magic have such a deep arrogance in magic over tech that they use tech only when given no other choice.

Mages like magic. Mages think magic is the best solution for lots of things. Mages though do not have to be idiotic suicidal fanatical technophobes that reject all technology 'cuase its got cooties. (Unless your something like a jungle elf biomancer) The mage is likely smart enough to know that he can't keep an armor spell up at all time, so he better wear a suit of armor. The experienced mage is likely to know that they are not going to do direct damage with spells in many situations, and that they can quickly run out of PPE trying...so bring a gun. The wise mage also knows when to do the magic thing.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well since I did not understand Damien's point because I never said that mages can't wear armor I guess I misinterpreted the point of his post.

Cool.

When I don't understand somebody's point, I try to ask them what they're getting at, give them a chance to explain.

Not to speak for Damien, but I'm guessing that his point was that even in settings where it's not all that lethal to go around with no armor at all, he still has his mages wear armor, because it still provides his characters an additional chance to live longer.

In Rifts, you pretty much HAVE to have MDC protection of some kind, unless the GM is specifically running an SDC adventure/campaign.
In HU, armor is still really important, because you might end up on the wrong end of a machine gun.
In PFRPG, though, it's pretty much the single most reasonable place to go unarmored (outside of BtS, where it might be illegal) because you won't be facing down guns, and arrow and sword damage is unrealistically light.
But even in that setting, Damien's mages wear armor, because it can save their life.
Which indicates that in a place as deadly as Rifts is (under most GMs), his mages probably wear all the armor they can safely handle.

That's just my guess, though. He'd have to elaborate himself for his message to be perfectly clear.

[SpiritInterface]

I would love to see a squad assualt a building in full Bomb Disposal Armor, it would be keystone cops time.

Cooks and Mechanics don't wear as heavy of armor as combat troops is that it would interfere with them doing their job.

What you are basically saying is that the rules aren't really the rules, they are more of a guideline. Ok, I am cool with that.

As someone who plays Magic OCCs alot I know how useful the are in combat. That being said not one of my mages could be mistaken as a combat trooper in heavy armor and carrying a combat rifle.

You don't seem to be understanding what I am saying! I you are playing a mage, play a mage not a combat trooper with a gun. If you are playing a powered hero, play a powered hero not a hardware with a gun.

I never said that Magic OCCs, PCCs shouldn't wear armor, just that they shouldn't wear heavy or assault armor. My complaint was that many GMs and Players have basically abandoned the limits and themes that make magic OCCs what they are.

[SpiritInterface]

Actually I am going to have to disagree here. Since I was in the Army, I was a support MOS, and I had the exact same body armor as the infantry guys.....and a grenade launcher....my buddy (also a support MOS) carried a light machine gun. So yeah.....

When I was in the mechanics, truck drivers, pilots wore lighter 'chicken plate' than I was issued as an MP, and we had everything up to a 105mm mortars.

[SpiritInterface]

Well since I did not understand Damien's point because I never said that mages can't wear armor I guess I misinterpreted the point of his post.

Cool.

When I don't understand somebody's point, I try to ask them what they're getting at, give them a chance to explain.

Not to speak for Damien, but I'm guessing that his point was that even in settings where it's not all that lethal to go around with no armor at all, he still has his mages wear armor, because it still provides his characters an additional chance to live longer.

In Rifts, you pretty much HAVE to have MDC protection of some kind, unless the GM is specifically running an SDC adventure/campaign.
In HU, armor is still really important, because you might end up on the wrong end of a machine gun.
In PFRPG, though, it's pretty much the single most reasonable place to go unarmored (outside of BtS, where it might be illegal) because you won't be facing down guns, and arrow and sword damage is unrealistically light.
But even in that setting, Damien's mages wear armor, because it can save their life.
Which indicates that in a place as deadly as Rifts is (under most GMs), his mages probably wear all the armor they can safely handle.

That's just my guess, though. He'd have to elaborate himself for his message to be perfectly clear.

You missed the second half of my post, which was that it seemed to be saying that mages in PF could wear any armor they wanted.