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Has anyone ever done or seen any art showing Zentraedi ships refit like what was done in show with the SDF-1?

Chris0013 wrote:Has anyone ever done or seen any art showing Zentraedi ships refit like what was done in show with the SDF-1?

The SDF-1 wasn't a Zentradi ship... in Robotech it was Zor's personal battlefortress, and in the original Macross it was either a Supervision Army gun destroyer or a Meltrandi Army gun destroyer (depending upon whether you're watching the main or DYRLverse continuities respectively). It was only remodeled that way because it got pretty badly messed up crashing into a planet at speed. The severity of the remodel has varied depending on the version (major in the Supervision Army case, minor in the Meltrandi case).

For obvious reasons, Robotech has sort of swept everything Zentradi under the rug... and in both of the Macross universes there's little practical benefit to remodeling a Zentradi warship to make its outer hull look visibly human-made. The UN Forces in Macross normally use Zentradi ships almost unaltered, and only make the modifications absolutely necessary to facilitate their use by humans (human-scale living space and walkways alongside Zentradi-scale corridors, modifications to hangars, Valkyrie launch arms, etc.). Thus far, there have only been two known cases of Zentradi ships having their exteriors modified by humans after falling into human hands... the addition of what was probably a flying bridge to the Nupetiet Vergntizs-class ships sent with the 1st Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (Megaroad-01) as seen in Macross: Flashjback 2012 (and here), and the one Neo Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class ship briefly seen in the Macross-5 fleet (the 35th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet) in Macross 7 (and here), which has been retrofitted with human-made engines, some sensor antennae, two human-scale flying bridges, and a slightly remodeled exterior incorporating new stealth technologies shared with other human warships of the period. Every other Zentradi ship in human possession, apart from those two, has been depicted as being pretty much unaltered in terms of its exterior layout.

What he said.

Also, there is the example of the SDF-3. Though not really a Zentraedi ship, it was designed to look like one. Then, after the Edwards mutiny, it was "refit" to look more like the late UEEF fleet. Mind you, there was no good reason to do this and frankly I think the SDF-3 looked better a Zentraedi style ship, but whatever. (There is the alternate argument that the SDF-3 looked like the one seen in the Shadow Chronicles in the first place, and that the Zentraedi hull plates were built around it like a shell, to facilitate the Trojan Horse effect... I've always thought this was a bit silly,not to mention the comparative dimensions being all wrong...)

Anyways, if you want some footage of Zentraedi ships in action, on the side of the UN Spacy, check out Macross II. The opening battle has some great footage. None of them apear to be modified, save for the UN Spacy roundel painted on the side of the upetiet Vergntizs-class ship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7dJodWXre4

Tim Wing wrote:Also, there is the example of the SDF-3. Though not really a Zentraedi ship, it was designed to look like one.

's a relatively common misconception... the SDF-3 in Robotech has never actually been seen prior to its refit. All we've seen is the false outer hull built up around the ship's actual hull to make it look vaguely like a Zentradi warship, and then the post-shadow tech rebuild after Edwards' shot it to bits.

Tim Wing wrote:Then, after the Edwards mutiny, it was "refit" to look more like the late UEEF fleet. [...]

Well, not quite... it received an extensive refit to adopt shadow technology while it was being repaired after Edwards' and co. shot the bow right off her spaceframe.

Tim Wing wrote:Anyways, if you want some footage of Zentraedi ships in action, on the side of the UN Spacy, check out Macross II. The opening battle has some great footage. None of them apear to be modified, save for the UN Spacy roundel painted on the side of the upetiet Vergntizs-class ship.

Well, you can find plenty of other examples... but the "DYRLverse" continuity (incl. the Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song canon games alongside the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA) has probably the most blatant use of Zentradi ships by the UN Spacy. Not only do captured Zentradi warships make up most of the UN Spacy's fleet in that setting, but most of the new human-made designs are either human-built imitations of Meltrandi warships (the Heracles and Gloria) or literally built out of an assortment of Zentradi warships (the Macross Cannon).

The "stock" Zentradi ships used by the UN Spacy in Macross II have been modified a bit though... the internal spaces have had miclone-scale fittings like mid-wall catwalks and crew quarters installed alongside those for the giant crew, and were also fitted with new hatches and under-hull access spaces to permit the ships to use launch arms for Valkyries and auto-attacker bits.

Zentradi warships do show up as part of the UN Forces in the main timeline too... the aforementioned Neo Nupetiet Vergnitzs-class battleship (the only thing we've seen WRT a remodel of a Zentradi ship) as part of the Macross-5 fleet in Macross 7, or the unmodified ships seen as part of the New UN Spacy 33rd Marines in Macross Frontier.

the main macross line seems to use zentreadi ships mostly in their own fleets.. not really mixed with human ones all that often. honestly, that is an idea that could apply to robotech.
if most of the zentraedi chose to join the UEEF [1], it would be much easier to set them up in their own units and task forces, just under the command of the UEEF higher command, than it would be to fully intergrate them into the main UEEF forces. obviously human troops could be assigned to them to support them (the way that we see on Breetai's ship), but the main force and command for the units would be zent.

[1] and lets face it.. most of the malcontents we see in the show are just upset they aren't warriors anymore.. give the dissaffected ones that didn't join khyron or similar groups a chance to be warriors again under the UEEF, and they'd probably flack to the UEEF's banner.. including perhaps some of the malcontent groups.
the zent's mostly leaving earth would actually explain Bernard's comment about "going the way of the zentreadi".. instead of being "hope they all die", it becomes "hope they all just leave earth".. either would have been something i think bernard (and the UEEF) would have accepted as a resolution for the invid on earth issue.. of course, the regis wasn't interested in leaving until it looked like all the invid would be destroyed..

glitterboy2098 wrote:the main macross line seems to use zentreadi ships mostly in their own fleets.. not really mixed with human ones all that often. honestly, that is an idea that could apply to robotech.

's a bit misleading, because the animation only shows us a very tiny cross-section of the UN Spacy fleets... in the official setting, the vast majority of Zentradi ships serve in mixed fleets. Mostly in colony fleets, either as part of a colony ship's escort detail (as seen in Macross: Flashback 2012 and Macross 7 and bits of FB2012 reanimated in Macross Frontier) or as colony ships themselves (most, if not all, of the hundred-plus short-range colony fleets used Zentradi warships as colony ships).

And then the Macross-5 fleet decides to troll us a little... by remodeling human-built ships with Zentradi aesthetics. Twice.

The background material for the mass-production "SDFN" Macross-class ships also suggests the factory satellites in the Sol system are building NEW Zentradi warships as well... since the SDFNs are said to have been built swiftly by diverting systems from Zentradi warships under construction.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the main macross line seems to use zentreadi ships mostly in their own fleets.. not really mixed with human ones all that often. honestly, that is an idea that could apply to robotech.

's a bit misleading, because the animation only shows us a very tiny cross-section of the UN Spacy fleets... in the official setting, the vast majority of Zentradi ships serve in mixed fleets. Mostly in colony fleets, either as part of a colony ship's escort detail (as seen in Macross: Flashback 2012 and Macross 7 and bits of FB2012 reanimated in Macross Frontier) or as colony ships themselves (most, if not all, of the hundred-plus short-range colony fleets used Zentradi warships as colony ships).

And then the Macross-5 fleet decides to troll us a little... by remodeling human-built ships with Zentradi aesthetics. Twice.

The background material for the mass-production "SDFN" Macross-class ships also suggests the factory satellites in the Sol system are building NEW Zentradi warships as well... since the SDFNs are said to have been built swiftly by diverting systems from Zentradi warships under construction.

It actually maks a lot of sense-- the zentraedi weren't defeated-- they decided they preferred culture and came over (and have continued to do so in fairly large numbers), but they remain warriors-- and very good warriors with their own traditions and strategic doctrine. In fact, given the losses suffered by the human military and the presence of zentreadi troops and officers, I wouldn't be suprised if the human military after Space War I has been just as impacted by zentraedi doctrine as the other way around.

mech798 wrote:It actually maks a lot of sense-- the zentraedi weren't defeated-- they decided they preferred culture and came over (and have continued to do so in fairly large numbers), but they remain warriors-- and very good warriors with their own traditions and strategic doctrine.

Yep... the UN Spacy, and later New UN Spacy, were perfectly happy to field Zentradi units using "traditional" Zentradi equipment alongside units using Valkyries. So much so that they went and captured the automated factory satellite building the Queadluun-Rau just to keep their fleet of 'em in operation. (Which led to the UN Gov't contracting General Galaxy to restore the satellite and develop an improved version of the suit that you know as the Queadluun-Rhea/56 from Macross Frontier.)

mech798 wrote:In fact, given the losses suffered by the human military and the presence of zentreadi troops and officers, I wouldn't be suprised if the human military after Space War I has been just as impacted by zentraedi doctrine as the other way around.

Oh, there are few bets safer than that... after General Global retired, his successor as head of the UN Forces was none other than Zentradi commander Vrlitwhai (Britai) Kridanik. Quite a few of the up and coming new commanders in the years following the war were Zentradi officers who'd defected alongside Vrlitwhai during the first Space War... like Commander Naresuan, or legendary fighter aces Timoshie Daldhanton (who took what passes for a human name) or Milia Fallyna.

I do the same as they have done in Macross. Refitted only as necessary with MAYBE something like an on board hydroponics for a park like area while on long deployment vessels or something.

jaymz wrote:I do the same as they have done in Macross. Refitted only as necessary with MAYBE something like an on board hydroponics for a park like area while on long deployment vessels or something.

One of the thiungs that you generally ahve to ask is whether or not hte zentreadi ships are less heavily armed thn they could be. This is a conceit of the rpg that they're not as heavily armed as the Macross, especially in beam weapons. Some other fan products disagree with this and to be hoenst, I don't think there's ever been an "official" source that has a number other than "many."

If the assumption is that they're less heavily armed, then a modified ship might include more and larger weapons. I'd say however that given teh low levels of modification we see in the various Macross films and series, (albeit we don't see a lot) that's not really born out and zentraedi warships are very heavily armed for their size with the primary defeciency being their lack of a main gun-- but equally most human fleets seem to only have a few ships with that sort of weapon, which indicates that it's either A. very hard to make or B. more limited than it appears.
(C. being that given that main guns appear to be unstoppable, you really want them to be undre the control of someone you think isn't going to go nutty on you. IE, why it too the destruction of the Grand Fleet before Santa finally answered little Kyron's earnest prayer for his very own cannon ship. And, as people warned him, he put his eye out with it. (sorry, couldn't resist). )

mech798 wrote:One of the thiungs that you generally ahve to ask is whether or not hte zentreadi ships are less heavily armed thn they could be.

Considering that, in most cases, Zentradi ships are little more than a massive agglomeration of gun turrets, missile tubes, launch bays, and armor plate strapped to a colossal engine cluster and a fold system... it would be hard to make Zentradi ships more heavily armed than they already are without compromising other functions.

mech798 wrote:This is a conceit of the rpg that they're not as heavily armed as the Macross, especially in beam weapons. Some other fan products disagree with this and to be hoenst, I don't think there's ever been an "official" source that has a number other than "many."

Well, yes... because, in the RPG, the SDF-1 is supposed to be a unique, one-of-a-kind, super-potent, ultra-deadly, ancient wonder of the galaxy personally owned by Zor himself and packed to the bulkheads with impossibly powerful equipment.

In general, the RPG tends to exaggerate things far out of reasonable proportion... though the Zentradi weapons out-range and out-number human weapons, so the hits may not be as big, but there are more of them delivered from farther away.

From an OSM standpoint, the Supervision Army (or Meltrandi Army) gun destroyer that became the Macross was an utterly unremarkable, somewhat small-ish, warship of the type fleets fling thousands of at the enemy with nary a backwards glance or second thought. It's handily outgunned by many of the larger Zentradi ships, and has to rely on its less versatile, but not inconsiderable, heavy super dimension energy cannon to make up the difference.

As far as the number of gun turrets and missile tubes on Zentradi ships goes, I am only aware of ONE class of ship which has the number explicitly stated: the Quiltra Queleual-class troopship, which has 17 guided beam cannons and 96 anti-ship/anti-aircraft missile launchers. Of course, it's also one of the most lightly armed Zentradi ships because of its role in fleet operations.

mech798 wrote:If the assumption is that they're less heavily armed, then a modified ship might include more and larger weapons.

Probably not both.

Taking into account the dismal standard of human technology in Robotech, it's doubtful they could do anything to make the Zentradi ships more combat-effective than they already were. Their own ships were (and never stopped being) awkward and embarrassingly unequal to the task of defending themselves. Within the scope of the RPG, where human weapons are considerably shorter-ranged than Zentradi ones, retrofitting them with human weapons would be a downgrade.

Now, in Macross, the question is one of whether they want lots and lots of comparatively light and highly versatile gun turrets as the Zentradi favor, or a far smaller number of substantially larger and more potent gun turrets the way the human ships are built. The Zentradi ships don't really stand to gain anything from switching, since the effective range is about the same and there's little appreciable difference between sinking an enemy ship with a hundred little shots or one big one.

mech798 wrote:I'd say however that given teh low levels of modification we see in the various Macross films and series, (albeit we don't see a lot) that's not really born out and zentraedi warships are very heavily armed for their size with the primary defeciency being their lack of a main gun--

's not really a deficiency... those heavy converging beam cannons like the Macross's main gun take up a lot of space and require a lot of energy for each individual discharge. That cuts into the number of troops you can carry and the fire rate is rather slow, leaving you vulnerable while you wait for the bloody thing to charge up. It could be argued that having a main gun system like that on such a massive scale is actually almost an impediment to their function in the course of a normal ship-to-ship engagement.

mech798 wrote:but equally most human fleets seem to only have a few ships with that sort of weapon, which indicates that it's either A. very hard to make or B. more limited than it appears.
(C. being that given that main guns appear to be unstoppable, you really want them to be undre the control of someone you think isn't going to go nutty on you.

A. Nope, super dimension energy cannons are actually the most scale-able form of energy weaponry in the setting... and humanity in Macross has no trouble producing them. They range from massive ones like the one on the Boddole Zer mobile fortress in DYRL or the Grand Cannons, with barrels kilometers across all the way down the scale to ones that are compact enough to be carried as gun pods or even coaxial or wing glove-mounted guns on VFs. (Seen on 4th Gen or later VFs.)

B. Pretty much... the guns take a lot of energy per shot, so the rate of fire is very low. The larger the gun, the more destructive... but also the longer it takes to recharge. On the massive, bombardment-scale ones, that can be a matter of minutes to charge up a single shot.

C. More an issue with thermonuclear and pair-annihilation reaction weapons than super dimension energy cannons, since the energy requirements to fire one of the big ones mean there's going to be a LOT of people around to make sure that it's not being misused. Dimension eater warheads will probably also fall under such massively heavy restrictions, since they one-upped the multi-gigaton warheads known to exist among reaction munitions by achieving literal one-warhead one-planet kill levels. (Like when Grace O'Connor used one to destroy Gallia IV.)

mech798 wrote:IE, why it too the destruction of the Grand Fleet before Santa finally answered little Kyron's earnest prayer for his very own cannon ship. And, as people warned him, he put his eye out with it. (sorry, couldn't resist). )

Quamzin's original Queadol Magdomilla-class fleet command battleship already had a heavy converging energy cannon on it... just not one quite as large and deadly as the one on the medium-scale gun destroyer he boosted later on. He used it to pop the Macross's pinpoint barriers in "Blind Game" before he sacrificed the bow of his ship to a Daedalus Attack. That particular class of gun destroyer is actually one of the more common Zentradi ship classes... but because it's mostly that huge cannon, it doesn't have a lot of room for troops, and Quamzin is the leader of an Aerial Armored troop division, not a fleet commander. He's all about the battle pods.