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I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

Hmm, even in the Rifts Book of Magic and the original Conversion Book 1, the warlock call lightning doesn't have a saving throw.
Even back in 1st edition the spell had no saving throw. The saving throw is actually a recent addition to the spell. I always put it
down as the warlock version was far more powerful and deadly. Then again all the Fulmination spells have saving throws. So put
it in or leave it out, G.M. choice.

if you want fun a 10th level fire warlock with mini fireballs was more fun, 10 shots of 10d4 damage per casting. The limiting factor to these was spells per day.
But second ed river of lava is worse, if you are an sdc being you are dead, no save just adios muchachos no rolls required. Can kill a large group of people and is only 50ppe

kiralon wrote:if you want fun a 10th level fire warlock with mini fireballs was more fun, 10 shots of 10d4 damage per casting. The limiting factor to these was spells per day.
But second ed river of lava is worse, if you are an sdc being you are dead, no save just adios muchachos no rolls required. Can kill a large group of people and is only 50ppe

True but its 7th level and exclusive to the warlock which means you aint picking it up til at least 7th level.

well he was talking about a level 10 caster

Damian Magecraft wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

Yes. The same as no Saving Throw

kiralon wrote:if you want fun a 10th level fire warlock with mini fireballs was more fun, 10 shots of 10d4 damage per casting. The limiting factor to these was spells per day.
But second ed river of lava is worse, if you are an sdc being you are dead, no save just adios muchachos no rolls required. Can kill a large group of people and is only 50ppe

Yes, I know, the mini fireballs are crazy. But at least there is a chance of dodge. Also river of lava is too powerful. I adressed this also in this forum. And got at least a lot of ideas to reduce its effect. Also you could add some kind of dodge to river of lava. How about Love charm. Suicide on missed saving throw!

Anyway. Call Lightning is instant death. What where they thinking ?

Reagren Wright wrote:Hmm, even in the Rifts Book of Magic and the original Conversion Book 1, the warlock call lightning doesn't have a saving throw.
Even back in 1st edition the spell had no saving throw. The saving throw is actually a recent addition to the spell. I always put it
down as the warlock version was far more powerful and deadly. Then again all the Fulmination spells have saving throws. So put
it in or leave it out, G.M. choice.

Yes. I will most likely add standard Saving throw to this spell.

tmbn wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

Yes. The same as no Saving Throw

wait...
I am confused.
How is a dodge vs nat 20 or modified 24 the same as no save?

Damian Magecraft wrote:

tmbn wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

Yes. The same as no Saving Throw

wait...
I am confused.
How is a dodge vs nat 20 or modified 24 the same as no save?

You said "save" the first time when it should have been "dodge" which usually has higher bonuses than save vs magic. Hard still but more doable than save vs magic strength 24.

I can't sympathize....does the target of a sniping attack he does not know is coming get a dodge? Nope.

If somebody doesn't know it's coming then there is no way for then to dodge a physical attack. whether it is a bullet, arrow, fireball or lighting.

There is no save against a LOT of attack spells. Just like you don't get a saving throw against bullets.....

Another way to adjust the lethality of Call Lightning, since there is no roll to strike it is a GM call wether the damage hits the armor or the person inside. It can be ruled that it always hits armor first, but it is still a quick way to damage creatures with a natural AR. Or perhaps the GM could impose a straight roll to determine if the damage beats the AR of armor or natural AR.

If you want to be realistic about it....if the armor is fully metal is fully connected head to toe to ground the only thing a electricity bolt of the scale we are talking about would maybe heat up the armor a fe degrees f. It would just be a man sized faraday cage.

eliakon wrote:There is no save against a LOT of attack spells. Just like you don't get a saving throw against bullets.....

I like that, an excellent way to put it.

Firstly, I have totally missed a rule about nat 20, mod 24 saves against no saving throws!! what??

Back to the point- I agree with Drew above. Cant dodge or save against lightning. Good call Palladium. (Balance might be an issue admittedly).

One thing we have done in our games is to limit the spell to outside only - ie the lightning comes from the sky so unless ur outside or by a window ur kinda protected.
Also a consideration to its use is the MASSIVE "hello" to ur location and someone using a blatant spell (lightning once with no thunderstorms).

Also in 2nd edition, it isn't insta-death with SDC. The damage isn't direct to HP.

Sure, a 1st level goblin is probably going to be fried. However, you are typically (if the GM is decent) going up against enemies of roughly similar level (or higher) depending on number of PCs and NPCs versus protaganists.

So if you have a 10th level group, you are probably facing multiple 10th level bad guys (or higher) or one or two even higher level really touch guys.

Your typical warrior at 10th level is going to have PE + 10D6 HP plus probably 20-50SDC from various skills and abilities. That means a 10th level lightning bolt probably only has around abouts a 20% chance of "insta kill". Granted, on a second strike it probably has around abouts a 70+% chance of killing them.

In first edition where characters only had HP with no SDC, yes the odds were much greater of insta kill, but still far from a guarantee and again, see about going up against high level bad guys.

Its not a lot of fun if your 10th level adventure party is getting ambushed by half a dozen 3rd level thiefs and warriors. Or they finish the adventure and then have to go up agains the ultimate evil puppet master, a 4th level cobbler.

azazel1024 wrote:Also in 2nd edition, it isn't insta-death with SDC. The damage isn't direct to HP.

Sure, a 1st level goblin is probably going to be fried. However, you are typically (if the GM is decent) going up against enemies of roughly similar level (or higher) depending on number of PCs and NPCs versus protaganists.

So if you have a 10th level group, you are probably facing multiple 10th level bad guys (or higher) or one or two even higher level really touch guys.

Your typical warrior at 10th level is going to have PE + 10D6 HP plus probably 20-50SDC from various skills and abilities. That means a 10th level lightning bolt probably only has around abouts a 20% chance of "insta kill". Granted, on a second strike it probably has around abouts a 70+% chance of killing them.

In first edition where characters only had HP with no SDC, yes the odds were much greater of insta kill, but still far from a guarantee and again, see about going up against high level bad guys.

Its not a lot of fun if your 10th level adventure party is getting ambushed by half a dozen 3rd level thiefs and warriors. Or they finish the adventure and then have to go up agains the ultimate evil puppet master, a 4th level cobbler.

Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR. Also, A Wizard can throw more than one. Say he throws 3 or 4. The the kill would be a fact. Then its hard without a saving throw.

Thanks to all for good answers! I very much like the one about giving up your position and also only use outside. Still I will add saving throw to this spell. Or its just to easy to use on poor souls.

How about rubber boots

tmbn wrote:Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR.

This is not correct. The damage would be subtracted from the characters physical SDC first, then hit-points. The only time you go direct to hit points is when it's explicitly stated.

Damian Magecraft wrote:Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

The wizard version on page 198 is not the warlock version on page 222. Just because it's possible to dodge the wizard version does not mean it's possible to dodge the warlock version.

kiralon wrote:if you want fun a 10th level fire warlock with mini fireballs was more fun, 10 shots of 10d4 damage per casting. The limiting factor to these was spells per day.

These can be dodged though, even easier than wizard-lightning in fact, plus the range isn't all too good. Great for closer-ranged encounters though I guess.

kiralon wrote:second ed river of lava is worse, if you are an sdc being you are dead, no save just adios muchachos no rolls required. Can kill a large group of people and is only 50ppe

I kinda figured the 'killing SDC beings' was more of a flavorful way of pointing out that most beings can't survive the amount of damage it inflicts, not that it's an auto-death for anyone who isn't supernatural. Otherwise we'd get grey area based on arguing over who qualifies as a "powerful" supernatural being outside the explicit elemental/golem/dragon survivors.

Range is still an issue though. Archers could simply keep back within the terminal range of their bows and fire with impunity.

tmbn wrote:Call Lightning is instant death. What where they thinking ?

It isn't instant death, it's easily possible to survive even a level 10 casting if you're wearing moderate armor or are a hardy individual. It might bake a naked Gnome well enough I guess.

Average of lvl 10 is 35 damage, a guy with 14 HP (which is human average at level 1) would only need 22 SDC to avoid a coma from that. An average mercenary will have 14 SDC and a Soldier 20 SDC (both possibly higher if they select other physical skills besides the default) and chain mail or studded leather take each well over the amount needed to avoid a 1-hit defeat.

Arthemus wrote:

tmbn wrote:Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR.

This is not correct. The damage would be subtracted from the characters physical SDC first, then hit-points. The only time you go direct to hit points is when it's explicitly stated.

There wasn't any physical SDC in first edition though. All damage that got past your armor was to your Hit Points...

Whoops, I missed the part of the OP that said 1st ed. My bad.

tmbn wrote:Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR. Also, A Wizard can throw more than one. Say he throws 3 or 4. The the kill would be a fact. Then its hard without a saving throw.

You are getting S.D.C from items such as armor that has both A.R. and S.D.C. confused with a player characters S.D.C. and H.P. They are not the same thing.

Lukterran wrote:

tmbn wrote:Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR. Also, A Wizard can throw more than one. Say he throws 3 or 4. The the kill would be a fact. Then its hard without a saving throw.

You are getting S.D.C from items such as armor that has both A.R. and S.D.C. confused with a player characters S.D.C. and H.P. They are not the same thing.

On First ED. Players dont have SDC. Only HP.

Maybe this will then work better running 2 ed. Would this not be possible to "one shot" people with that rule ?

tmbn wrote:
Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR. Also, A Wizard can throw more than one. Say he throws 3 or 4. The the kill would be a fact. Then its hard without a saving throw.

Uhm.. A.R. isn't ablative, it's a base to beat on the strike roll.. If your armor's A.R. is 10, then any D20 roll to strike below 10 (and above 4) does damage to the armor, not it's occupant, and any D20 roll to strike above 10 does damage to the wearer.. You can roll a 1 for damage and still beat the A.R. and damage the person inside the armor, it's the Strike roll that matters there..

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

That is the meaning of the spell.
I don't see the problem, but that's probably because I'm an old-school gamer who's used to the idea that mages start off relatively weak, but end up to be absolute powerhouses at high levels.
PFRPG mages are modeled on D&D mages which were modeled on Chainmail mages which were modeled on artillery.

Also, the average damage of the spell even at 10th level is 35 HP/SDC. A 10th level character (IIRC) will have 1d6x10 Hit Points in addition to their PE. On average, they'll have 45 HP by that time, so they're not all that likely to be one-shotted by that spell from a 10th level mage.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

That is the meaning of the spell.
I don't see the problem, but that's probably because I'm an old-school gamer who's used to the idea that mages start off relatively weak, but end up to be absolute powerhouses at high levels.
PFRPG mages are modeled on D&D mages which were modeled on Chainmail mages which were modeled on artillery.

Also, the average damage of the spell even at 10th level is 35 HP/SDC. A 10th level character (IIRC) will have 1d6x10 Hit Points in addition to their PE. On average, they'll have 45 HP by that time, so they're not all that likely to be one-shotted by that spell from a 10th level mage.

Yes. But hitting lower levels will turn them to smoke without not even being able to save. And remember you have more than one spell cast each round. So that is more likely 70 in damage. Hence One-Shot.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

tmbn wrote:
Yes. There is SDC in first edition. But you cant count SDC as protection when damage is above AR. If damage is above AR all the damage will hit the hitpoints. So Armor will have no effect on the lightning from a 10th level wizard if the damage roll is above AR. Also, A Wizard can throw more than one. Say he throws 3 or 4. The the kill would be a fact. Then its hard without a saving throw.

Uhm.. A.R. isn't ablative, it's a base to beat on the strike roll.. If your armor's A.R. is 10, then any D20 roll to strike below 10 (and above 4) does damage to the armor, not it's occupant, and any D20 roll to strike above 10 does damage to the wearer.. You can roll a 1 for damage and still beat the A.R. and damage the person inside the armor, it's the Strike roll that matters there..

How would AR work on spell damage that have no strike roll like Call lightning ?

tmbn wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

That is the meaning of the spell.
I don't see the problem, but that's probably because I'm an old-school gamer who's used to the idea that mages start off relatively weak, but end up to be absolute powerhouses at high levels.
PFRPG mages are modeled on D&D mages which were modeled on Chainmail mages which were modeled on artillery.

Also, the average damage of the spell even at 10th level is 35 HP/SDC. A 10th level character (IIRC) will have 1d6x10 Hit Points in addition to their PE. On average, they'll have 45 HP by that time, so they're not all that likely to be one-shotted by that spell from a 10th level mage.

Yes. But hitting lower levels will turn them to smoke without not even being able to save.

And...?

And remember you have more than one spell cast each round. So that is more likely 70 in damage. Hence One-Shot.

One shot is one casting, not your total castings for the melee wound.

As written it wouldn't matter, an automatic hit is an automatic hit. If the GM wanted to alter it, I'd say make a straight strike roll (maybe adding the mage's spell strength bonus the roll) to see if that beats the A.R...

For me an instance like Call Lightning would essentially be an area affect attack on the person and his belongings, so I'd have the damage subtracted from the Armor AND the character (and whatever he was carrying/had on him).

Lightning as a weapon is no joke. When I was struck by lightning it arced through my knee from a tree I'd been standing next to and threw me 20 feet; I had a hole in my jeans and in both of my shoes, and rheumatic pain in my knee for 30 years, until about two months before I crushed my leg under the engine of my FedEx truck...

I just want to say, the Game Master has a big job; they must build a story for the characters (albeit with the players help) and maintain tension/ a sense of danger without killing the characters.. Character deaths should be uncommon and heroic, not random because a high level mage one-shot killed them at 1st level.. A tenth level magic user is going to be cocky and thus you can argue that they would toy with the characters before bringing out the big guns.. that's the standard in adventure stories, heroes always have a chance against the odds..

It's not the game's job to hedge that chance, it's the G.M.'s..

I'm not exactly sure how Call Lightning gives away a Wizard's/Warlock's position. Yes... it is an obvious spell... in that it can come from a clear blue sky... but it doesn't come from the wizard/warlock. The wizard/warlock needs to be able to see the target, but that doesn't mean the target can easily see the wizard. At best, if the target survives and knows about the spell, he might be able to determine that the caster has to be somewhere within 300 feet... but unless they are in the middle of some sort of flat terrain, it may not be that easy to find the wizard/warlock who cast the spell.

MADMANMIKE wrote:As written it wouldn't matter, an automatic hit is an automatic hit. If the GM wanted to alter it, I'd say make a straight strike roll (maybe adding the mage's spell strength bonus the roll) to see if that beats the A.R...
snip

Considering you need a dodge of 19 or 20 that makes the strike roll at least a 19 id say come talk to me when you are wearing armour with an ar of 19 or higher and its made of an insulating material or is something like a faraday suit.
I have never seen a lightning bolt 1 shot a player character, well other than a lightning arrow in the hands of a longbowman with first ed sniper skill (x3 damage), and that was another player doing it.

About one shot or instant kill or whatever you want to call it.

Let say half damage from dices so a 10th level wizard with 2 spell attack would produce:

10x1-6d = 30 (60 maximum) x 2 = 60 damage (120 maximum) to hit points. That I would say is often istant kill.

Anyway i totally agree that its the GMs job to level this into a setting. So I would never use it on my low level players. But High level players have a easy combat round when you are Undead hunter at 10th level. Villians are going up in smoke.

MADMANMIKE wrote:As written it wouldn't matter, an automatic hit is an automatic hit. If the GM wanted to alter it, I'd say make a straight strike roll (maybe adding the mage's spell strength bonus the roll) to see if that beats the A.R...

For me an instance like Call Lightning would essentially be an area affect attack on the person and his belongings, so I'd have the damage subtracted from the Armor AND the character (and whatever he was carrying/had on him).

Lightning as a weapon is no joke. When I was struck by lightning it arced through my knee from a tree I'd been standing next to and threw me 20 feet; I had a hole in my jeans and in both of my shoes, and rheumatic pain in my knee for 30 years, until about two months before I crushed my leg under the engine of my FedEx truck...

Sorry to here about your tragic accident You have real life experience then.

About Spell damage and AR. So what you say is that spell damage will never go on SDC, just directly to Hit points ?

Of course you could add the Strike for Wizard, but how is the rule from the book interpret 1 ed. ? How do you determine if spell damage should go to SDC or Hit points ?

tmbn wrote:About one shot or instant kill or whatever you want to call it.

Let say half damage from dices so a 10th level wizard with 2 spell attack would produce:

10x1-6d = 30 (60 maximum) x 2 = 60 damage (120 maximum) to hit points. That I would say is often istant kill.

If it takes two attacks, then it's not instant.
Fast, yes. Instant, no.

Either way, I don't see the problem with it.
Don't mess with high-level wizards, unless maybe you have magical protection.

tmbn wrote:About Spell damage and AR. So what you say is that spell damage will never go on SDC, just directly to Hit points ?

Of course you could add the Strike for Wizard, but how is the rule from the book interpret 1 ed. ? How do you determine if spell damage should go to SDC or Hit points ?

As written the spell is an automatic hit, meaning no strike roll. It's up to the GM to determine whether or not that damage goes to the armor/SDC first or not.

For an alternate rule as I suggested above, a 10th level Wizard has a spell strength of +3, so a D20 roll to strike +3 could be used to determine if the damage bypasses the SDC of the armor and goes straight to hit points (characters have no personal SDC in 1st Edition). This would not affect whether or not the target is hit, just how effective the damage is. 10th level Warlock has a +2 spell strength, and both classes can cast two spells per melee (which is a full minute in 1st edition).. A character's attacks per melee are spread out through the initiative order amongst the other characters, so there's no way for them to make an instant kill by casting this spell twice; there has to be 30 seconds between castings no matter how you play it..

MADMANMIKE wrote:

tmbn wrote:About Spell damage and AR. So what you say is that spell damage will never go on SDC, just directly to Hit points ?

Of course you could add the Strike for Wizard, but how is the rule from the book interpret 1 ed. ? How do you determine if spell damage should go to SDC or Hit points ?

As written the spell is an automatic hit, meaning no strike roll. It's up to the GM to determine whether or not that damage goes to the armor/SDC first or not.

For an alternate rule as I suggested above, a 10th level Wizard has a spell strength of +3, so a D20 roll to strike +3 could be used to determine if the damage bypasses the SDC of the armor and goes straight to hit points (characters have no personal SDC in 1st Edition). This would not affect whether or not the target is hit, just how effective the damage is. 10th level Warlock has a +2 spell strength, and both classes can cast two spells per melee (which is a full minute in 1st edition).. A character's attacks per melee are spread out through the initiative order amongst the other characters, so there's no way for them to make an instant kill by casting this spell twice; there has to be 30 seconds between castings no matter how you play it..

Thank you Madmanmike!

I think this is kind of fuzzy explained in the rule book. It should be more clearer. Myabe my bad not picking up 2 ed rule book yet.

I will maybe stay with the damage input that I use today on spells. AR vs Damage. So if damage roll is above AR. Everything will go to Hit points. If below everything will go to SDC.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

tmbn wrote:I was looking over this spell the other day. Call Lightning is a Air Warlock spell you can hit persons with lightning and the person gets 1D6 in damage per level of the spell caster. But wait a minute... What?? No saving throw, no dodge, no nothing to defend yourselves with. So that means a 10th level Air Warlock can just go around "one-shot" (killing on one strike) people (10D6) without they even have a chance to defend themselves (saving throw.)

Was this actually the meaning of the spell? Or is this mistyped in the 1ed. book? Was this even thought thru? Its seems crazy. And even undead hunter starts out with this spell.

Save was "dropped" in editing.
Save is vs nat 20 or a modified 24.

Not to mention that you still have to roll a successful strike to hit the target.

tmbn wrote:
Thank you Madmanmike!

I think this is kind of fuzzy explained in the rule book. It should be more clearer. Myabe my bad not picking up 2 ed rule book yet.

I will maybe stay with the damage input that I use today on spells. AR vs Damage. So if damage roll is above AR. Everything will go to Hit points. If below everything will go to SDC.

My pleasure. 1st Edition PF was my first RPG back in 1989 and we played it regularly until 1996 when 2E came out. Remember that 1st Edition dates back 32 years now.. it was a very different landscape in the gaming world back then.

While built on the same foundation, 2E has some very different rules; a melee in 2E is only 15 seconds, S.D.C. isn't just for inanimate objects (on people it represents cuts and bruises while hit points represent internal injuries and blood loss), there are no longer class specific combat styles (except Gladiator and the Monk Scholar), and although it wasn't intended, with the addition of world books by Bill Coffin, some argue it includes the "2 attacks for living" rule from Palladium's other settings.

And yes, any roll above 4 to strike is a hit (unless parried or dodged); and any roll between 4 and the A.R. of armor does damage to the armor, not it's occupant. Rolls to strike above the A.R. do damage directly to the armor's occupant (hit point damage in 1st edition, S.D.C. and/or hit point damage in 2E.)

Severus Snape wrote:Not to mention that you still have to roll a successful strike to hit the target.

Where do you get that idea? 1st edition only says "instant and line of sight", and 2nd Edition specifies "Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!"

2nd Edition also states that the spell can be used indoors or out, for those that choose to limit the spell to outdoors..

tmbn wrote:

MADMANMIKE wrote:As written it wouldn't matter, an automatic hit is an automatic hit. If the GM wanted to alter it, I'd say make a straight strike roll (maybe adding the mage's spell strength bonus the roll) to see if that beats the A.R...

For me an instance like Call Lightning would essentially be an area affect attack on the person and his belongings, so I'd have the damage subtracted from the Armor AND the character (and whatever he was carrying/had on him).

Lightning as a weapon is no joke. When I was struck by lightning it arced through my knee from a tree I'd been standing next to and threw me 20 feet; I had a hole in my jeans and in both of my shoes, and rheumatic pain in my knee for 30 years, until about two months before I crushed my leg under the engine of my FedEx truck...

Sorry to here about your tragic accident You have real life experience then.

About Spell damage and AR. So what you say is that spell damage will never go on SDC, just directly to Hit points ?

Of course you could add the Strike for Wizard, but how is the rule from the book interpret 1 ed. ? How do you determine if spell damage should go to SDC or Hit points ?

Lightning strikes in real life are no joke. I had to help about 10 golfers back in my youth working on a golf course with lightning injuries and some impressive shrapnel wounds as they were standing next to a tall oak tree that got hit by lightning which caused all the bark to explode out from it leading to some nice half a foot to foot long splinters stabbing into people and some minor electrical burns from where it traveled through the roots under the peoples feet. Thankfully most of the injuries were while impressive looking pretty easily healed once the doctors who were in the club house got out there but lightning is no joke.

MADMANMIKE wrote:

Severus Snape wrote:Not to mention that you still have to roll a successful strike to hit the target.

Where do you get that idea? 1st edition only says "instant and line of sight", and 2nd Edition specifies "Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!"

2nd Edition also states that the spell can be used indoors or out, for those that choose to limit the spell to outdoors..

Interesting note on the indoors or outdoors question is the air warlock version seems to indicate it works indoors as well as outdoors but the wizard/invocation magic version is outdoors only. Seemed pretty reasonable that air warlocks are simply better at this sort of magic.

Also in PFRPG unless you are using the RUE style fast casting options from the mysteries of magic it takes 2 actions to cast this spell and during this time if you can break the warlock/wizards concentration you stop the spell from ever happening. So while it is powerful it has its limitations and if you see somebody whipping around this kind of power perhaps you may wish to tackle them ASAP.

kaid wrote:Interesting note on the indoors or outdoors question is the air warlock version seems to indicate it works indoors as well as outdoors but the wizard/invocation magic version is outdoors only. Seemed pretty reasonable that air warlocks are simply better at this sort of magic.

Uhm.. No. At least not in any of the printings of 2E between 1st and 6th.. are you going from a later printing than 6th? Because between 1st and 6th the text in the Wizard and Air Warlock spells is identical.. Unless you're referencing RIFTS books, which of course have no impact on this discussion as it's entirely about Palladium Fantasy RPG... Also, while the RIFTS incantation of Call Lightning does state "a lightning bolt comes down from the sky", it does not specify indoor or out.

kaid wrote:Also in PFRPG unless you are using the RUE style fast casting options from the mysteries of magic it takes 2 actions to cast this spell and during this time if you can break the warlock/wizards concentration you stop the spell from ever happening. So while it is powerful it has its limitations and if you see somebody whipping around this kind of power perhaps you may wish to tackle them ASAP.

True, although the OP has clarified and mentioned in multiple posts that he's using 1st edition Palladium Fantasy rules.

Reagren Wright wrote:Hmm, even in the Rifts Book of Magic and the original Conversion Book 1, the warlock call lightning doesn't have a saving throw.
Even back in 1st edition the spell had no saving throw. The saving throw is actually a recent addition to the spell. I always put it
down as the warlock version was far more powerful and deadly. Then again all the Fulmination spells have saving throws. So put
it in or leave it out, G.M. choice.

Loved the Fulmination spells.. Chain Fulmination!!!

Its a brutal spell. Upper level Warlocks are pretty scary.

When I was running a campaign, my players were 100% power gamers. Every single bit of coin they earned went into getting their hands on desired weaponry (hopefully dwarf or kobold) and magically upgrading it. Indestructible, eternally sharp etc. Then onto other items.

They also bought jewelry and scrolls with magical abilities. Armor of Ithan was a real favorite.

Call lightning can be a real equalizer for the GM in a serious fight.

NMI wrote:Loved the Fulmination spells.. Chain Fulmination!!!

For some reason when I read this I pictured an Archon from Starcraft saying "Fulminate!" like how he says "annihilate"

Or wear a trench coat and yell FUEGO!