Modern technologies that we don't see in robotech

[mech798]

Robotech's components, like many shows of the era, showed the future of the late 1970s and early 1980s. So what types of technology don't we see?

I'll start off with the big one:

There is no internet. Even before the ROD there's no real hinting of it and most computers look fairly single purpose. Equally, most hand held communication units are far less multi-use than their real world 2009 equivalents.

[Chronicler]

modern (well ultra modern as some wargamers call it) military units. The fact that the VF- series of planes and other vehicles like it are dated in style. Drones both military and civilian. Computers that use terabyte HD or SSD. Fashion is one thing.

that's all I can think of at the moment.

[Seto Kaiba]

Robotech's components, like many shows of the era, showed the future of the late 1970s and early 1980s. So what types of technology don't we see?

Optical storage media
Cellular telephones
Public internet (networked computers are shown to be present, but only in a military context)
Portable media devices


Mind you, the original shows may have a fair bit of zeerust... but they and their sequels have some eerily prophetic moments too, like a big push toward alternative fuel vehicles, Minmay's digital picture frame in FB2012, or the near-omnipresent tablet-style e-readers and digital newspaper and magazine subscriptions in Macross 7...

[taalismn]

[


Mind you, the original shows may have a fair bit of zeerust... but they and their sequels have some eerily prophetic moments too, like a big push toward alternative fuel vehicles, Minmay's digital picture frame in FB2012, or the near-omnipresent tablet-style e-readers and digital newspaper and magazine subscriptions in Macross 7...

Lisa's little portable 'flat' camera comes to mind as a case of prophetic tech.

They do manage to subvert the 'cute robot mascot' trope...the roving robots in Macross are more annoying than actually useful, and the GMP 'bot in Southern Cross is a top-heavy klutz too dumb to duck...

[Tim Wing]

- No widespread use of passive stealth.
- No room temperature super conductors (not that this is a thing in our world yet either)
- No nanotechnology (dito)
- No combination Whitecastle's/Church's Chicken fast food joints (what, this isn't a technology?)

[taalismn]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

[jedi078]

I actually try to incorporate RL tech into my Robotech games.....

[glitterboy2098]

- No room temperature super conductors (not that this is a thing in our world yet either)
- No nanotechnology (dito)

actually, the former is probably more of a 'background tech' that just never gets called out.. a lot of the energy weapon tech and such would almost require room temp superconductor tech to work at all.

as for nano-tech.. well that depend on what you mean. if you mean cell sized machines with plot based capabilities to make stuff and so on.. yes. but nano-tech in real life is mostly things like nano-structure materials, new alloys, metamaterials, etc.. all things that would be background tech that could easily exist and be the basis of much of the advanced tech we see.. but which is never specifically called out in dialog.

[jedi078]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

I agree with this since there would be a lot of junk floating in orbit. So non-military satellite communications would be almost impossible.

Cell phones would not be used because o this, unless a different type of system was used where the cell towers send the call through a telephone line. Even then it would only be limited to the large cities since telephone grids all over the world would have been severally damaged by the RoD.

I do see the internet being used after the Global Civil War (it was actually invented back in the 1960's), but after the RoD it would be limited due to the loss of infrastructure.

One thing a lot of people don't realize is that the Global Civil War would have caused military technology to possibly be several years ahead of what we had in 1999 because the opponents would have aimed to gain technological edge over one another. One only has to look at WWI and WWII as examples where warfare caused military tech to jump forward a few generations. Here is an interesting article that shows how much tech in an iPhone came from military/government applications. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-m ... ne-2014-10

As it pertains to passive stealth tech the F-117A officially entered service in 1983, and shared parts and avionics with the F-15, F-16, and F-18. So it is quite possible it was used during the Global Civil War. That said I can see a form of wide beam LIDAR (just an assumption on my part I really don't know the ins and out of LIDAR) being used to detect stealth aircraft, which would make further stealth aircraft.

In end whether or not to use RL tech in a Robotech RPG game would be up to the individual GM.

[Tim Wing]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

I was just thinking about GPS myself. Though it was being developed as far back as the 70's, it did not become "Fully" operational, with a full 24 satellites, till 95. So it is a technology that should exist in Robotech, but not necessarily by the GPS brand name! I would Robotech-ize its name. Perhaps Geo-Locating Network (GLN)?

Another consideration would be its collapse post RoD, due to all the space debris. I would imagine there would be a few years were GPS/GLN would not be available, until the UN Spacy/UEDF/RDF/whatever put new armored satellites in orbit. Or perhaps transmitters on derelict Zentraedi ships placed into geosynchronous orbits?

As far as cell phones go, they were a thing in the eighties. Remember the brick? But I think it would be years before the cell tower network could be rebuilt to a point where you have coverage outside of major cities. Wouldn't be cost effective, given the limited amount of subscribers. By 2030, I would imagine we would see towers for the major cities, and allong the routes of the major highways... and that's it. The gap could be filled by satellite phones, once the debris field thinned out, which would still charge horrendous fees.

[ShadowLogan]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

As the Masters show, even military grade platforms aren't immune to jamming/tampering though.

Its hard to say how much Sat. use would be different. First there is the demand aspect for a given service. While one has to consider debris in orbit left over from FoA, said debris might not be a factor, especially if there wasn't some effort to clean up key orbitals for use (between FoA and DS since no indication of the fleet debris remains). In fact the lower orbitals should clear out of debris fairly quickly (could be a matter of days due to atmospheric friction) compared to higher orbitals to clear out naturally w/o outside assistance (like sending ships to gather debris up for later recycling).

[jaymz]

I use present day Military vehicles in the background in use by the member nations and keep the stuff in RT as UEDF stuff.

[Seto Kaiba]

That said I can see a form of wide beam LIDAR (just an assumption on my part I really don't know the ins and out of LIDAR) being used to detect stealth aircraft, which would make further stealth aircraft.

Now THERE'S a technology that we know for certain doesn't exist in Robotech... LIDAR and LADAR.

If either of those technologies existed in a military application on fighters or ships, the UEEF would've had ways of detecting enemy fighters and ships using shadow fields to escape detection, since light is listed in AotSC as one of the key things a shadow field doesn't block. Using LADAR or LIDAR sensor systems would have given the UEEF the upper hand in practically every fight in the entire "shadow saga".

(Amusingly enough, LIDAR systems are a key part of the sensor suites of ships and VFs alike throughout Macross... and are a key part of non-cooperative target recognition systems.)

[mech798]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

I was just thinking about GPS myself. Though it was being developed as far back as the 70's, it did not become "Fully" operational, with a full 24 satellites, till 95. So it is a technology that should exist in Robotech, but not necessarily by the GPS brand name! I would Robotech-ize its name. Perhaps Geo-Locating Network (GLN)?

Another consideration would be its collapse post RoD, due to all the space debris. I would imagine there would be a few years were GPS/GLN would not be available, until the UN Spacy/UEDF/RDF/whatever put new armored satellites in orbit. Or perhaps transmitters on derelict Zentraedi ships placed into geosynchronous orbits?

As far as cell phones go, they were a thing in the eighties. Remember the brick? But I think it would be years before the cell tower network could be rebuilt to a point where you have coverage outside of major cities. Wouldn't be cost effective, given the limited amount of subscribers. By 2030, I would imagine we would see towers for the major cities, and allong the routes of the major highways... and that's it. The gap could be filled by satellite phones, once the debris field thinned out, which would still charge horrendous fees.

Another factor is that in robotech it's very unlikely there is much, if any, investment available for civilian technology progress, much less the people needed for it. Everything is going to be directed top-down from the UEEG on what THEY think they need.

[jedi078]

That said I can see a form of wide beam LIDAR (just an assumption on my part I really don't know the ins and out of LIDAR) being used to detect stealth aircraft, which would make further stealth aircraft.

Now THERE'S a technology that we know for certain doesn't exist in Robotech... LIDAR and LADAR.

If either of those technologies existed in a military application on fighters or ships, the UEEF would've had ways of detecting enemy fighters and ships using shadow fields to escape detection, since light is listed in AotSC as one of the key things a shadow field doesn't block. Using LADAR or LIDAR sensor systems would have given the UEEF the upper hand in practically every fight in the entire "shadow saga".

(Amusingly enough, LIDAR systems are a key part of the sensor suites of ships and VFs alike throughout Macross... and are a key part of non-cooperative target recognition systems.)

I just remember LIDAR being used in Space: Above and Beyond. There is also the off chance that technology found on the SDF-1 lead to a way to defeat passive stealth technology and thus allows for a plausible reason for the UEDF to not mix Robotechnology and passive stealth.

[Tim Wing]

Now THERE'S a technology that we know for certain doesn't exist in Robotech... LIDAR and LADAR.

Not necessarily. It would just need to not be in use by the Invid. As long as they are not using it, the Shadow device would be effective.

[Seto Kaiba]

I just remember LIDAR being used in Space: Above and Beyond. There is also the off chance that technology found on the SDF-1 lead to a way to defeat passive stealth technology and thus allows for a plausible reason for the UEDF to not mix Robotechnology and passive stealth.

Unlikely, IMO... as the The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles alleges (quite erroneously) that the VF/A-6 Alpha fighter was designed for passive stealth. Where it gets hilarious is that it's quite clear in the text that they're claiming its "chiseled" shape was intended to reduce its radar cross-section, which is pure nonsense considering the airframe is basically square... with lots of nice, flat horizontal and vertical surfaces that would make it childishly easy to detect via radar.

So, at least from that we know that they're claiming that passive stealth IS a thing that the United Earth Forces know about in Robotech, and something they allegedly employed.

Now THERE'S a technology that we know for certain doesn't exist in Robotech... LIDAR and LADAR.

Not necessarily. It would just need to not be in use by the Invid. As long as they are not using it, the Shadow device would be effective.

Er... buddy, you missed a pretty crucial bit of context.

The vast majority of the conflicts in Robotech that have occurred in the "shadow saga" didn't involve the Invid. In fact, the very first (chronologically speaking) time the UEEF encountered shadow technology was when the UEEF compound on Tirol was attacked by shadow field-stealthed Alpha fighters belonging to forces answering to General Edwards. The UEEF got its butt kicked by those early shadow-stealth fighters because they had no way to detect them, and that led to Edwards being able to escape into space with his renegade forces. They had no way to detect shadow field-equipped ships or fighters, and no reliable way to fight them without getting close enough to aim their guns by eye. Even after Edwards had successfully ambushed and crippled the SDF-3, and then ambushed and destroyed the UEEF's first shadow-stealth ship, the Tokugawa, they still didn't have a way to detect ships and fighters using shadow fields. It led to Edwards' downfall, because he had no way to detect the remodeled SDF-3 sneaking up on him, and Ghost squadron had to rely on the same seat-of-the-pants flying and shooting by eye that the UEEF did after the UEEF brought its first batch of shadow fighters to the fight.

After the Battle of Reflex Point, the Haydonites repeatedly leverage the UEEF's inability to properly detect shadow-stealthed craft to pursue the Icarus back to Luna, to ambush the UEEF fleet, and to infiltrate Space Station Liberty to abduct Janice.

Based on the description of the shadow field's effect and weaknesses in AotSC, having LIDAR or LADAR as a commonplace sensor system on UEEF ships and fighters would've enabled them to detect enemies using shadow fields at considerable distance because shadow fields can't block reflected or emitted light. There would've been no ambushing the UEEF fleet the way people did alarmingly often in Prelude and RTSC.

The only countermeasure they come up with is at the very end of RTSC, when they find some prototypes capable of optical targeting (apparently with conventional cameras), but still have to engage the enemy at distances close enough to exchange rude hand gestures to make it workable.

[Tim Wing]

The vast majority of the conflicts in Robotech that have occurred in the "shadow saga" didn't involve the Invid. In fact, the very first (chronologically speaking) time the UEEF encountered shadow technology was when the UEEF compound on Tirol was attacked by shadow field-stealthed Alpha fighters belonging to forces answering to General Edwards.

Ah, good point. I always forget about the particulars of the comics....

[guardiandashi]

re the shadow devices as far as I can tell they supposedly act like a polarization filter, so while thay can't block broad spectrum light (IE keep you from visually seeing the "shadow" cloaked unit ) they do block all sensors such as radar ladar lidar etc.

is it a bit silly that they do maybe but that is the described effect.

[Seto Kaiba]

re the shadow devices as far as I can tell they supposedly act like a polarization filter, so while thay can't block broad spectrum light (IE keep you from visually seeing the "shadow" cloaked unit ) they do block all sensors such as radar ladar lidar etc.

is it a bit silly that they do maybe but that is the described effect.

Eh... no, that's actually NOT what's described.

What IS explicitly stated is that a shadow field is a dimensional shift that can conceal a craft from most of the conventional forms of detection EXCEPT the visible spectrum. The definition on Robotech.com and the one in AotSC explicitly state that the shadow field cannot conceal a craft in the visible spectrum... and the most common frequency band for LIDAR and LADAR systems happens to overlap the visible spectrum.

That, of course, means that a LIDAR or LADAR system would, in fact, be perfectly capable of detecting a shadow-stealthed fighter or ship at range provided its frequency was kept between the near-ultraviolet and near-infrared... and in space, even a modest LIDAR or LADAR system built on modern technology can have a range of hundreds of kilometers.

[glitterboy2098]

personally, since the tech for LiDAR/LaDAR has been around since the 1970's, i'd say that it is present in the show's setting.. its just that no one thought it worth mounting it on mecha as targeting gear. those kinds of blind spot are not uncommon in real life. plus, real world LiDAR in military service has been fairly niche.. like the Airborne Laser Mine Detection System used by the navy, or the Long-Range Biological Standoff Detection System used by the army. more recently LiDAR has been used as a sensor for terrain following programs for aircraft, intended to make the vehicle less detectable than the normal radar, and as a sensot for pilotless ground vehicle prototypes for terrain identification.

the use of LiDAR as a targeting system in real life doesn't even show up in Science Fiction all that often, and in real life has not been used (AFAIK) despite the fact it would hypothetically have some advantages against low radar visibility vehicles.

with that kind of stealth left in a niche 'silver bullet' role in the global war, (the F-117 by timelime, and the production model F-22 we see in the first wildstorm comics at the airshow) and effectively dropped afterwards, it wouldn't be too surprising to find out hat in robotech, the idea of using LiDAR to detect shadow fighters just never occurred to anyone with the chance to get the idea to anyone who could try it.

[Seto Kaiba]

personally, since the tech for LiDAR/LaDAR has been around since the 1970's, i'd say that it is present in the show's setting..[...]

Since the 1960s, actually... laser-based detection and range-finding systems were invented shortly after the laser itself was. The term "LIDAR" was coined in 1963. What brought the technology to the general public's attention was the usage of a LADAR system to map the moon's surface in 1971.

HOWEVER... there is evidence in From the Stars to suggest that the Robotech Earth timeline may have branched from the real world in or before the 1950s, so it cannot be said with certainty that a technology that existed in the 1960s or later exists in the Robotech universe.

its just that no one thought it worth mounting it on mecha as targeting gear. [...]

Not as targeting gear... as a part of the standard avionics package, to complement the search radar and other detection gear. Considering that NASA had been using LIDAR systems for navigation and mapping functions for well over a decade at the time the original animation was made, and for longer at the time the show is supposed to have taken place, the absence of LIDAR systems for navigation and warning is a rather jarring thing. Why would they do away with one of the most profoundly useful and versatile tools for navigation inside a solar system and planetary survey operations?

One has to wonder... if LIDAR was a bridge too far, do they even have laser range-finding for the weapons they use?

the use of LiDAR as a targeting system in real life doesn't even show up in Science Fiction all that often, and in real life has not been used (AFAIK) despite the fact it would hypothetically have some advantages against low radar visibility vehicles.

Partly, I suspect that's down to the fact that it's not a "household name" the way that RADAR and infrared sensors are. A lot of American SF tends to be set farther afield than the "15 minutes into the future" that we have for the settings of Macross, Gundam, etc., so they tend to rely on the narrative cheat of having advanced generic "sensors" that can do anything.

I can think of a couple shows where the setting makes use of LIDAR systems explicitly... Macross is one that makes extensive use of LIDAR, Star Trek: Voyager established that advanced LIDAR was a predecessor to said generic sensors, as does Warhammer 40,000.

with that kind of stealth left in a niche 'silver bullet' role in the global war, (the F-117 by timelime, and the production model F-22 we see in the first wildstorm comics at the airshow) and effectively dropped afterwards, it wouldn't be too surprising to find out hat in robotech, the idea of using LiDAR to detect shadow fighters just never occurred to anyone with the chance to get the idea to anyone who could try it.

That seems like a pretty significant oversight, considering they had something like a year to figure out how to detect shadow-stealthed craft while they were building their own fleet.

[mech798]

That seems like a pretty significant oversight, considering they had something like a year to figure out how to detect shadow-stealthed craft while they were building their own fleet.

Chalk it up to how few people there were. I mean, you've barely got enough people to crew ships, especially if we go by robotech numbers and that probably means your design teams are both small and overstretched. That leaves a lot more room to overlook stuff, or just not have the time to implement it even if you do think of it.

[glitterboy2098]

they were building up a fleet to fight using shadow tech against an opponent without it. the drive to figure out how to detect them wouldn't be very high. (look in real life.. the real push in the US to come up with anti-stealth systems didn't really arrive until decades after the first stealth plane was unveiled.. because until the russians and chinese started flying their own stealth prototypes, it was not seen as a need. and outside the US there was a push for it, but they were hindred by a poorer understanding on how said stealth worked, which slowed them way down.)

[Seto Kaiba]

Chalk it up to how few people there were. I mean, you've barely got enough people to crew ships, especially if we go by robotech numbers and that probably means your design teams are both small and overstretched.

That's... a really good point, and explains a lot of the moon logic at work in the UEEF's logistics. They've got the same handful of blokes developing EVERYTHING... one fewer after 2044, since Lazlo Zand is on a stint in a military prison somewhere for treason.

they were building up a fleet to fight using shadow tech against an opponent without it.

Ah... No.

In case you forgot, though I can't imagine how as I JUST reminded folks about it a post or two ago, the UEEF was retrofitting its fleet with shadow technology using blueprints and research notes that they'd nicked from Edwards' labs, and literally the first thing they did as soon as they had a combat-worthy ship fully outfitted with shadow technology was send it to Optera to subdue the shadow tech-equipped forces under Edwards' control. Then, when that didn't work, the second thing they did was send a second ship to Optera to finish what the first one started.

At some point, "how do we track an enemy who has shadow technology" should have crossed someone's mind... especially considering that they only found out shadow technology was a thing after an enemy in their own ranks managed to use a single escort ship and a single squadron of fighters to whip their butts TWICE WITH IMPUNITY and do so much damage to the UEEF's most powerful battleship that it was out of the fight FOR A YEAR!

That's a really, REALLY significant oversight.

the drive to figure out how to detect them wouldn't be very high.

*coughs, points to the above*

In fact, they had a pretty significant revenge-based motive to figure out exactly that...

[mech798]

Chalk it up to how few people there were. I mean, you've barely got enough people to crew ships, especially if we go by robotech numbers and that probably means your design teams are both small and overstretched.

That's... a really good point, and explains a lot of the moon logic at work in the UEEF's logistics. They've got the same handful of blokes developing EVERYTHING... one fewer after 2044, since Lazlo Zand is on a stint in a military prison somewhere for treason.

Yeah-- especially when you consider that out of the 70K survivors mentioned in Robotech (which I still think is far too low given the assumptoins in robotech, but we'll leave the Nth iteration of that discussion for elswhere), you're including Min Mei, her parents, kyle... the staff of the Manhatten project they are not. And that helps explain some of the tech-- why is the alpha less effecient in some respects than the VF-1? Because the VF-1 was developed via the work of hundreds of thousands of engineers. Teh Alpha probably had a smaller design staff than a modern bicycle design team. In a lot o fcases, they were probably taking already done work and just modifying it.

[ShadowLogan]

That's... a really good point, and explains a lot of the moon logic at work in the UEEF's logistics. They've got the same handful of blokes developing EVERYTHING... one fewer after 2044, since Lazlo Zand is on a stint in a military prison somewhere for treason.

Regarding Zand, wasn't he supposed to already be dead/MIA when the UEEF found him on Optera?

At some point, "how do we track an enemy who has shadow technology" should have crossed someone's mind... especially considering that they only found out shadow technology was a thing after an enemy in their own ranks managed to use a single escort ship and a single squadron of fighters to whip their butts TWICE WITH IMPUNITY and do so much damage to the UEEF's most powerful battleship that it was out of the fight FOR A YEAR!

Hadyonite interference?

They may have been looking for ways to track shadow technology already, just those systems weren't ready yet (SSF had counter Haydonite stealth targeting). Remember the UEEF had several factors (Edwards plans, Haydonite "help") working to jump start them in terms of USE of the hardware that would be directed against others, but likely had to start from Zero in terms of Counters to the technology when used against them unless Edwards happened to have also had plans for that (however he likely did have to have some way to manage those forces, but as real life stealth aircraft show you can have low probability of intercept radio emissions). And then one has to wonder if the Hadyonite's weren't influencing research to their benefit.

[Seto Kaiba]

Regarding Zand, wasn't he supposed to already be dead/MIA when the UEEF found him on Optera?

's beside the point... Dr. Lazlo Zand was still actively contributing as part of Edwards' R&D operation at the UEEF compound on Tirol, and later on Optera, until Edwards was killed and Zand was arrested for his part in Edwards' treasonous activities.

Haydonite interference?

Er... I rather doubt that any amount of Haydonite interference could've prevented the UEEF from noticing the frankly MASSIVE logistical problems inherent in being completely unable to track the process of their forces in the field. Edwards' use of shadow technology to betray the UEEF was just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the kind of problems that not having a way to detect your own ships and fighters would cause.

They may have been looking for ways to track shadow technology already, just those systems weren't ready yet (SSF had counter Haydonite stealth targeting).

That's the embarrassing part for the UEEF... not only is the visual targeting system they have extremely short-ranged (little better than eyeballing it), from the description and presentation all it is is an optical camera system (apparently a fixed-forward wide-angle system) with a basic image recognition suite for target identification.

Kind of underwhelming, really... that system is the kind of thing that, wide-angle camera hardware aside, could've been built by college students. (I'm not exaggerating there... advanced image recognition using satellite camera and LIDAR imagery is something the university I got my MS in Computer Science at was having undergraduate students work on, with fairly impressive results.)

[ShadowLogan]

's beside the point... Dr. Lazlo Zand was still actively contributing as part of Edwards' R&D operation at the UEEF compound on Tirol, and later on Optera, until Edwards was killed and Zand was arrested for his part in Edwards' treasonous activities.

Its very much the point. That Zand really hasn't been part of the UEEF R&D apparatus proper for some time now, so his being in a cell block isn't going to be felt in the same ways losing Lang or Penn might to such a fate (or worse).

Er... I rather doubt that any amount of Haydonite interference could've prevented the UEEF from noticing the frankly MASSIVE logistical problems inherent in being completely unable to track the process of their forces in the field. Edwards' use of shadow technology to betray the UEEF was just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the kind of problems that not having a way to detect your own ships and fighters would cause.

Tracking friendlies may not have been something the Haydonites interfered with much, even they would realize having units flying around blind in terms of communication would likely limit the UEEF's use of the technology. No, what I am talking about in terms of Haydonite interference with is detecting non-friendlies who are stealthed like Edwards or themselves. IINM the Hadyonites had no trouble tracking/detecting UEEF hardware with the Shadow Systems engaged in TSC, so we know it is possible to track Shadowed Systems.

That's the embarrassing part for the UEEF... not only is the visual targeting system they have extremely short-ranged (little better than eyeballing it), from the description and presentation all it is is an optical camera system (apparently a fixed-forward wide-angle system) with a basic image recognition suite for target identification.

Kind of underwhelming, really... that system is the kind of thing that, wide-angle camera hardware aside, could've been built by college students. (I'm not exaggerating there... advanced image recognition using satellite camera and LIDAR imagery is something the university I got my MS in Computer Science at was having undergraduate students work on, with fairly impressive results.)

Well given the size of the targets and how much light they reflect or otherwise give off, the short-range is understandable if you want to spot something fast with such a small light collection surface. Still a lot of the issues like this likely never entered the writers minds w/re to TSC/prelude that showcase just how bad they are at the technical details or consideration of said details.

[Seto Kaiba]

Its very much the point. That Zand really hasn't been part of the UEEF R&D apparatus proper for some time now, [...]

'cept that he was working for Edwards' R&D group, meaning that he might not have been credited for innovations he developed due to the secret nature of his involvement. He only really stopped being a part of the UEEF R&D in 2043 when Edwards turned on the other UEEF brass and fled.

No, what I am talking about in terms of Haydonite interference with is detecting non-friendlies who are stealthed like Edwards or themselves.

What makes you assume there's a difference between being able to track friendlies and hostiles through their shadow fields? A system that works on one will work on the other... and there would be absolutely no reason for the UEEF to suddenly decide that basic logistical and tactical necessities like tracking their own troops progress in the field were no longer necessary.

IINM the Hadyonites had no trouble tracking/detecting UEEF hardware with the Shadow Systems engaged in TSC, so we know it is possible to track Shadowed Systems.

Indeed, we know it's possible... possible for technology humanity (should have) had since the 1960s...

Well given the size of the targets and how much light they reflect or otherwise give off, the short-range is understandable if you want to spot something fast with such a small light collection surface.

Particularly for LIDAR systems, this is practically ideal conditions we're talking about... you have a slow moving object (by space's standards, anyway) on a near-zero reflectivity surface, and the engagement ranges are short enough that the lightspeed delay is a negligible. On a shipboard scale, they ought to be able to support a LIDAR array with a detection range of hundreds of thousands of kilometers, no sweat. This should, in fact, be a part of the standard sensor package for all ships because of its sheer utility in non-military applications on top of its clear, common-sense application for defensive purposes. If they're out to find inhabitable worlds, you couldn't ask for a better tool for planetary surveying and atmospheric spectrographic analysis.

Unless LIDAR systems don't exist in the Robotech universe as a whole, it would be insane for Earth ships to NOT use them... there's too much they're better at than more conventional sensor options.

It'd be more of an issue for a high-gain camera system, since that's dealing with only ambient reflected light, but even then you're tracking a partly illuminated object on a near-zero reflectivity surface and to track motion using changes in reflectivity is not that hard using principles found in application in almost every modern cell phone camera.

[ShadowLogan]

'cept that he was working for Edwards' R&D group, meaning that he might not have been credited for innovations he developed due to the secret nature of his involvement. He only really stopped being a part of the UEEF R&D in 2043 when Edwards turned on the other UEEF brass and fled.

True he was working for Edward's R&D group, but Edwards group may not be thought of as UEEF if they work for him as opposed to the UEEF. Basically the nature of Edwards group operated in the "Black World", able to capitilize on the "White World", but the "White World" couldn't capitilize on "Black World" results. Per dialogue in PttSC Zand reported to Lang that the fundamental basis for Shadow Technology didn't work before he disappeared. So Edwards group actually appears to be working against the UEEF R&D, not in support of it.

What makes you assume there's a difference between being able to track friendlies and hostiles through their shadow fields? A system that works on one will work on the other... and there would be absolutely no reason for the UEEF to suddenly decide that basic logistical and tactical necessities like tracking their own troops progress in the field were no longer necessary.

That's just it, we don't know how they are able to track/communicate through the Shadow Field. For all we know the tracking of friendlies is an active system that requires participation, or it might all be optically based.

Indeed, we know it's possible... possible for technology humanity (should have) had since the 1960s...

Agree. This is really a poorly thought out aspect of the plot by TBTB w/re to Shadow Technology.

It'd be more of an issue for a high-gain camera system, since that's dealing with only ambient reflected light, but even then you're tracking a partly illuminated object on a near-zero reflectivity surface and to track motion using changes in reflectivity is not that hard using principles found in application in almost every modern cell phone camera.

This is what I'm thinking of though in terms of camera technology, not LIDAR. If the basic camera system isn't up to the task of detection, all the other aspects aren't going to perform as well. I don't know if I'd look to modern cell phones for something like this, but electro-optical systems have been around for quite some time in the military.

But even optical sensors can be blinded or disrupted though, so it isn't a perfect solution.

[Jefffar]

The big issue I can think of is timing, the threat of enemy shadow fighters existed for only a brief span of time, thus the idea of a LiDAR system may have not had time to fully develop into an operational system before the requirement for it disappeared.

Also, there are some potential disadvantages to LiDAR we may not be considering, such as a vulnerability to passive detection systems (a good camera) and spooffing methods. The Shadow Cloaking device may also actually include an anti-LiDAR effect that has gone described (as the capabilities of many things are often left fairly vague in Robotech).

[glitterboy2098]

it may also be more difficult to employ LiDAR as a replacement for radar as well.. LiDAR uses lasers to scan, those will bring a number of practical limits to overcome.
first, the volume of space to scan. unlike radar, which can be quite wide beam and steered with frequency shifting elements built into the emitter, a Laser is going to generally be narrow beam (especially on a mecha that has limited space for bulky equipment) and will require mechanical steering.. either by moving the emitter itself, or with a more complex optical lens set up that can redirect the beam without degrading it. this means that not only do you need more sweeps to cover the same slice of space, but those sweeps will have a much more restricted speed at which they can be done.
second, the area being swept will require the LiDAR to have a clear view of the entire area to be scanned.. putting a limit on where it can be mounted on a mecha.. especially a transforming one that needs it in multiple modes. this means that the LiDAR would be competing with the radar for the same space, at least on mecha. you can reduce these problems slightly by limiting the area of space the LiDAR scans.. but that also reduces it's effectiveness as a sensor. if it's use is limited (for example, if it is only being used to aim a weapon at a target that was detected by some other method) this isn't an issue, but if it is being used as means of initial detection? you need a wide area of coverage and fast scanning.. which makes it less likely that a useful LiDAR system could be mounted in an Alpha or Beta without either replacing the existing radar systems.. or requiring a complete and total redesign of the mecha. and even replacing the radar would be an iffy proposition.. the two systems do not have equivalent hardware, and it is likely the mecha would still need extensive modifications to sections of the mecha to make it work.. possible extensive modifications in the case of mecha liek the Beta, which does not have an obvious place the radar is mounted and which might be using a conformal system.

getting it to work could easily take over a year, even assuming all the corners get cut to a dangerous degree and all the tests go perfectly.. and the UEEF didn't have that much time to deal with edwards.
and after edwards was finished, they were not expecting to fight someone with shadowtech, so the priority for figuring out how to detect such craft would have been lower. with the haydonite betrayal, there would be a new push.. but they're facing a huge resource limit with the lack of protoculture and the loss of the SDF-3 and space station liberty, so odds are any such project is slowed..

[Seto Kaiba]

That's just it, we don't know how they are able to track/communicate through the Shadow Field. For all we know the tracking of friendlies is an active system that requires participation, or it might all be optically based.

Unlikely... and, remember, these ships and fighters were built (or modified) at a point in time when the UEEF's primary threat in space was no longer the Invid Regent, but rather the highly resourceful shadow technology-equipped renegades under General Edwards. They would've had over a year to stew on how they could detect hostile (and disabled friendly) shadow-stealthed craft... and they would have noticed a shadow field offers no protection against the visible spectrum. Non-cooperative target recognition is the name of the game...

This is what I'm thinking of though in terms of camera technology, not LIDAR. If the basic camera system isn't up to the task of detection, all the other aspects aren't going to perform as well.

True, but unless camera technology is also way, WAY behind where we are today... it shouldn't be a real issue for the hardware.

I don't know if I'd look to modern cell phones for something like this, but electro-optical systems have been around for quite some time in the military.

On a software level it's pretty much what we're talking about.

The big issue I can think of is timing, the threat of enemy shadow fighters existed for only a brief span of time, thus the idea of a LiDAR system may have not had time to fully develop into an operational system before the requirement for it disappeared.

Considering how long we've had LIDAR in the real world, and how incredibly useful it would be for even routine matters of maneuvering in orbital space, let alone space exploration and colonization, that they wouldn't have made LIDAR a standard fixture on every ship suggests it either doesn't exist for them, or everyone in the entire Robotech universe is deathly allergic to the kind of common sense that the good folks at NASA have been exercising for half a century.

The Shadow Cloaking device may also actually include an anti-LiDAR effect that has gone described (as the capabilities of many things are often left fairly vague in Robotech).

We're explicitly and repeatedly told that the shadow field offers no protection against detection using the visible spectrum... LIDAR in the visible spectrum will, therefore detect one just fine.

first, the volume of space to scan. unlike radar, which can be quite wide beam and steered with frequency shifting elements built into the emitter, [...]

Would now be a bad time to point out that this hasn't been an issue for LIDAR systems for decades? Don't assume this is like waving a laser pointer around in space... it's perfectly possible to have a wide, diffuse beam for detection purposes. That's not new technology even by today's standards.

second, the area being swept will require the LiDAR to have a clear view of the entire area to be scanned.

Oh, if only extremely compact, extremely high-powered laser systems were a thing in Robotech... and wouldn't it be great if they could easily be mounted in multiples on the nosecone or stuck on a kind of head-like turret on the top of the thing that can move in multiple axes.

Oh wait...

LIDAR systems don't have to be big to get the job done, and modern-day LIDAR systems are actually quite small... and despite the transformation of these fighters, there's still a fair bit of empty space they could be put into.

getting it to work could easily take over a year, even assuming all the corners get cut to a dangerous degree and all the tests go perfectly.. and the UEEF didn't have that much time to deal with edwards.

They had over a year... in fact, we're told it's one year AFTER the SECOND run-in with Edwards that they have the very first shadow technology-equipped ship ready to go hunt him down. Considering this is not sci-fi technology, but something we've had for decades... it shouldn't take years.

[ShadowLogan]

Unlikely... and, remember, these ships and fighters were built (or modified) at a point in time when the UEEF's primary threat in space was no longer the Invid Regent, but rather the highly resourceful shadow technology-equipped renegades under General Edwards. They would've had over a year to stew on how they could detect hostile (and disabled friendly) shadow-stealthed craft... and they would have noticed a shadow field offers no protection against the visible spectrum. Non-cooperative target recognition is the name of the game...

They would have indication of the visible spectrum from the first run in w/shadow technology. The old MK1 eye balls of various individuals can confirm that. However, that is hardly an approach to use for battle management like this. Also recall that various aspects conspire to limit the UEEF's knowledge of the systems (Lorn mentions about the Kabarrens not understanding what they are producing in PttSC for the UEEF, then you have Louie wondering how things can work w/re to the technology if the math doesn't work in TSC, etc) and are also playing catchup (Edwards has had how long to develop and understand the technology compared to the UEEF).

It is possible though in the real world to have low-probability of intercept emissions from stealth aircraft, so Shadow Systems may be no different. Even w/Edward's data cache, the UEEF might not have recovered everything yet. The Haydonites as technical advisors might have a back door they can exploit (another trojan in the system) to track them that they couldn't give the UEEF about Edwards (since Edwards implies he had Haydonite help).

True, but unless camera technology is also way, WAY behind where we are today... it shouldn't be a real issue for the hardware.

It can be an issue. Remember you are dependent on the ability of the target to passively reflect or actively emitt light (visible, IR, or UV). That will limit the detection range (though non-visible light might leave a "whole" in the background that is more easily noticeable).

[Seto Kaiba]

They would have indication of the visible spectrum from the first run in w/shadow technology. The old MK1 eye balls of various individuals can confirm that. However, that is hardly an approach to use for battle management like this.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying... relying on the pilot to eyeball EVERYTHING (or sticking schmucks at every window on a ship with binoculars and saying "look for ships in the infinite blackness of space") is beyond unfeasible as the backbone of their operational logistics.

Unless LIDAR doesn't exist in the Robotech 'verse, they have a proven techology that can be easily built and adapted to practically any scale of implementation that neatly solves all their problems... so it would make zero sense not to use it, especially since it SHOULD be something their ships are ALREADY using for planetary survey work.

Also recall that various aspects conspire to limit the UEEF's knowledge of the systems (Lorn mentions about the Kabarrens not understanding what they are producing in PttSC for the UEEF, then you have Louie wondering how things can work w/re to the technology if the math doesn't work in TSC, etc) and are also playing catchup (Edwards has had how long to develop and understand the technology compared to the UEEF).

But they already identified one weakness in shadow technology... that you can see the plane in the visible spectrum, and they should have had LIDAR technology for three quarters of a century by that point, which should also have been a standard fixture on any ship out in space that intends to assess a potential colony world.

It can be an issue. Remember you are dependent on the ability of the target to passively reflect or actively emitt light (visible, IR, or UV). That will limit the detection range (though non-visible light might leave a "whole" in the background that is more easily noticeable).

How convenient then, that one of the other noted effects of the shadow field is that it EMITS LIGHT when active... making it easier for cameras to detect it.

[Jefffar]

If the shadow field emits light then LiDAR is unecissary.

[glitterboy2098]

If the shadow field emits light then LiDAR is unecissary.

yeah, you can get by with a decent Electro-Optical Targeting System in that case.. which would basically just be a software patch for the built in optical sensors all mecha carry.. and which is probably what the "optical scanning" mentioned in shadow chronicles is in the first place.
made all the more effective since haydonite fighters, being white/light grey, have a high albedo (reflecting more light) which would make them more visible despite the lack of a glowing exhaust stream like the UEEF mecha have..


that IS a targeting system that has been in place for most fighters since the 1960's..

[ShadowLogan]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying... relying on the pilot to eyeball EVERYTHING (or sticking schmucks at every window on a ship with binoculars and saying "look for ships in the infinite blackness of space") is beyond unfeasible as the backbone of their operational logistics.

Unless LIDAR doesn't exist in the Robotech 'verse, they have a proven techology that can be easily built and adapted to practically any scale of implementation that neatly solves all their problems... so it would make zero sense not to use it, especially since it SHOULD be something their ships are ALREADY using for planetary survey work.

I'm not saying they should rely on the MK1 eyeball as the end all be all of countering Shadow Systems, that would be man-hour intensive and likely have to contend with issues like boredom. But what I am saying is the first encounter with the Shadow Fighters (of Edwards) would have revealed that they would be vulnerable to detection by light in the part of the spectrum the human eye can see, giving them a direction to direct their counter Shadow efforts even early on.

I don't see why LIDAR type systems wouldn't exist, they have laser communications ("Miss Macross"). What I think it comes down to though is poor research/thought on the part of the people involved in TSC/PttSC.

But they already identified one weakness in shadow technology... that you can see the plane in the visible spectrum, and they should have had LIDAR technology for three quarters of a century by that point, which should also have been a standard fixture on any ship out in space that intends to assess a potential colony world.

A weakness that depends on the target being extremely close to detect practically though. As for LIDAR, it should exist, but I think its an example of the poor research/thought that went into TSC/PttSC concerning the recton/clarification (depending on POV) of the Shadow Devices.

How convenient then, that one of the other noted effects of the shadow field is that it EMITS LIGHT when active... making it easier for cameras to detect it

But that light will lose intensity with distance, and it isn't that bright to begin with (and yet another recton to the Shadow System since it does no such thing in the 85ep) as its barely noticeable in TSC. So it will help, but isn't the magic bullet unless the light is stronger in other wavelengths (IR, UV, etc).

[Seto Kaiba]

If the shadow field emits light then LiDAR is unecissary.

Over short distances... but for long-range detection (like a shipboard radar or a long-range aircraft search radar) a LIDAR system is preferable because the effective range is longer and the imaging clarity is better over distance. You don't just want to shoot any illuminated object, you want to know what you're shooting at... and, with a sufficiently powerful LIDAR system, it's possible to get enough clarity to read the surface detail like markings.

I don't see why LIDAR type systems wouldn't exist, they have laser communications ("Miss Macross"). What I think it comes down to though is poor research/thought on the part of the people involved in TSC/PttSC.

I'll grant you that it's an example of a massive failing of research on Harmony Gold's part... especially as visible wavelength laser systems can also be used for missile guidance, which would have enabled VFs to cheerfully shoot laser-guided missiles at shadow stealthed fighters. However, if there's no evidence for a thing's existence, a fair amount of evidence that the timeline may have branched before it ever existed, AND a perplexing case where the technology should be ubiquitous for its sheer utility and suitability to the purposes of the group... that's a pretty good body of circumstantial evidence to suggest it doesn't exist in the setting.

A weakness that depends on the target being extremely close to detect practically though.

Again, the mere existence of satellite imagery puts paid to that as an objection... a range of dozens or hundreds of kilometers from a high-gain camera or LIDAR system beats the heck out of having to be so close you can see them with the naked eye.

[Jefffar]

For a LiDAR system to be good enough to identify markings, the receivers, which are essentially cameras, would be good enough to register the markings without the laser anyway, at least on a light emitting target.

Really, against a glowing 'stealth' craft, the LiDAR only adds a ranging capability over a passive optical system, and given there are already laser rangefinders and targeting systems on most Robotech combat platforms, that's also a surplus capability.

So, I don't think the glowing shadow fighters would have caused a huge rush to develop a LiDAR system.

[ShadowLogan]

However, if there's no evidence for a thing's existence, a fair amount of evidence that the timeline may have branched before it ever existed, AND a perplexing case where the technology should be ubiquitous for its sheer utility and suitability to the purposes of the group... that's a pretty good body of circumstantial evidence to suggest it doesn't exist in the setting.

Have to disagree here. In terms of hardware, we know all the bits are there to make it work (ex non-destructive lasers as "laser induction" communication shows, even holography), its more in terms of application. Even in terms of applications I'm not convinced.

Something to consider though, we know that Laser resistant materials are part of RT. How might such a system effect LIDAR or other laser based sensors if present on Shadow Equipped targets?

Again, the mere existence of satellite imagery puts paid to that as an objection... a range of dozens or hundreds of kilometers from a high-gain camera or LIDAR system beats the heck out of having to be so close you can see them with the naked eye.

Actually it doesn't. You still need to know where to direct said camera system, otherwise its a shot in the dark. I would also remind you that we are still discovering a variety of natural satellites (relative to the Sun) that have been around for quite a long time with camera systems. So we know it helps when you know where and when to aim the camera (and laser) in this respect, the objects have sufficient magnitude in terms of light emission, and the hardware/software is sensitive (& fast)enough to detect the unknown.

[Seto Kaiba]

For a LiDAR system to be good enough to identify markings, the receivers, which are essentially cameras, would be good enough to register the markings without the laser anyway, at least on a light emitting target.

Um... nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Are you familiar with how a LIDAR works?

Really, against a glowing 'stealth' craft, the LiDAR only adds a ranging capability over a passive optical system, [...]

... and in a setting where ships can shoot at each other from tens of thousands of kilometers away, who could possibly see the need for a long-range means to detect stealthed ships? Perhaps someone whose forced had been ambushed and suffered considerable losses because of their inability to do so?

I barely need to do anything to defend my argument here, because the counterargument against mine is basically a continuous assertion of "why would they want to do a thing like detect people trying to attack them before they're close enough to attack?".

Have to disagree here. In terms of hardware, we know all the bits are there to make it work (ex non-destructive lasers as "laser induction" communication shows, even holography), its more in terms of application. Even in terms of applications I'm not convinced.

Just because all the pieces are there doesn't mean they put them together... look at how absolutely awful UEEF R&D is at putting two and two together. The whole RTSC plot DEPENDS on them being idiots.

Something to consider though, we know that Laser resistant materials are part of RT.

Only in the RPG.

How might such a system effect LIDAR or other laser based sensors if present on Shadow Equipped targets?

From the description in the one RT source those laser-resistant materials exist in, they're simply a ceramic that resists heating... which would not affect the reflection of a non-damaging laser for detection purposes.

Actually it doesn't. You still need to know where to direct said camera system, otherwise its a shot in the dark.

... and isn't it marvelous that a single LIDAR emitter can be made fairly small and still cover a field tens or hundreds of kilometers across and deep? You don't need to put JUST ONE system on the plane. They can be made small enough that, if you're willing to compromise a bit on range, you can just stick several onto various parts of the plane to cover all the angles. Even if "compromise" means tens of kilometers instead of hundreds or thousands, that's still one up on an optical camera.

I would also remind you that we are still discovering a variety of natural satellites (relative to the Sun) that have been around for quite a long time with camera systems.

Principally because our orbital LIDAR systems, which depend on solar panels, don't have the power to use in an outward-looking fashion against targets more than a few hundred kilometers away. However, ships and fighters carrying power plants superior to nuclear ones don't have to worry about that. The reason we're still finding natural satellites is because being based on Earth's surface causes problems for a long-range LIDAR system (we're talking hundreds of thousands of kilometers here) because of the atmosphere distorting the optical path of the beam. That leaves radio telescopes as the most effective solution for a surface-based observatory.

[glitterboy2098]

we don't use LiDAR or radio for detecting asteroids, dwarf planets, and kupier belt objects.

we find those with pure passive optical (visible light and IR) telescopes, and a lot of computerized image recognition to find the bits that are moving and separate them from the stars that don't.

which is, interestingly, not that different from the method used to detect extrasolar planets (there they use powerful optical telescopes to watch a star and measure it's wobble, which if it has planets it 'wobbles' certain ways)

LiDAR hasn't be used for astronomy.., and is not used all that often for orbit based observation of the ground. (radar tends to fill the mapping and detecting role)

and radio telescopes are mostly for observing things like black holes, the stellar background, and other questions where the object is not visible to optical means.

[Jefffar]

For a LiDAR system to be good enough to identify markings, the receivers, which are essentially cameras, would be good enough to register the markings without the laser anyway, at least on a light emitting target.

Um... nooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Are you familiar with how a LIDAR works?

Yes, but I did do a little brushing up to be sure. LiDAR works by illuminating the target with light (usually in the form of a laser) and then capturing the reflection of this light with a sensor that measures the time it took the light pulse to reach the target, thus providing a range. Those sensors can take a variety of forms, but, at the most basic, they all detect light. Cameras, electro-optical devices and the human eye all can perform a function similar to the receiving sensor component of the LiDAR, though don't have the timed rangefinding function.

Now the new stuff I found out while refreshing myself with the way these things work was this. LiDAR works best against non-illuminated, reflective objects because these produce the strongest returns without getting washed out by any light being emitted by the object. As an interesting note, systems designed to jam LiDAR systems like Laser Rangefinders and Laser Speed Measuring systems generally emit light in order to confuse the LiDAR system. Of course, a light emitting jamming system won't prevent detection by passive sensors like cameras (indeed, it will probably speed acquisition in many environments) but the ability of LiDAR to calculate an exact position, speed, make out details, etc, would be heavily degraded.

Really, against a glowing 'stealth' craft, the LiDAR only adds a ranging capability over a passive optical system, [...]

... and in a setting where ships can shoot at each other from tens of thousands of kilometers away, who could possibly see the need for a long-range means to detect stealthed ships? Perhaps someone whose forced had been ambushed and suffered considerable losses because of their inability to do so?

I barely need to do anything to defend my argument here, because the counterargument against mine is basically a continuous assertion of "why would they want to do a thing like detect people trying to attack them before they're close enough to attack?".

Seeing as the primary stealth system encountered was one that emitted light, the electro-optical systems known to be on many mecha in the UEEF arsenal would be as good if not better than LiDAR at detecting incoming targets with Shadow Cloaking Devices. Further, as the Shadow Cloaking Devices do emit light, it is plausible that they actually degrade the ability of LiDAR to gather the data it needs to be used for long-range targeting.

Then, the threat was suddenly resolved and the need to develop an anti-Shadow Cloaking Device technology lessened considerably and the sensors that they had been using before were probably upgraded by the Haydenites who told them that they should work against stealthy enemies in the future.

So the UEEF probably didn't put in a lot of time to a system that was going to be only marginally more effective than an electro-optical system (assuming that it worked at all against the Shadow Cloaking Device) because the threat quickly vanished and the Haydonites probably promised them something much better.

[ShadowLogan]

ook at how absolutely awful UEEF R&D is at putting two and two together. The whole RTSC plot DEPENDS on them being idiots.

That or the audience isn't supposed to think to hard about the plot. TSC is shaping up to be as bad as, if not worse than, RT:TUS in terms of plot holes. Personally I am not interested in defending HG's swiss cheese plot in TSC, I'm merely pointing out real world considerations for addressing those plot holes.

Only in the RPG.

No laser resistant material IS in the show (Ep44 "The Trap", Louie states clearly the Masters have Laser Resistant Ceramics).

From the description in the one RT source those laser-resistant materials exist in, they're simply a ceramic that resists heating... which would not affect the reflection of a non-damaging laser for detection purposes.

Actually if Ep44 is any indication they would send the laser beam off in another direction (Dana's shot ricocheted several times off the walls before returning to hit the ground at her feet), meaning they might reflect/scatter the beam away from the emitter.

... and isn't it marvelous that a single LIDAR emitter can be made fairly small and still cover a field tens or hundreds of kilometers across and deep? You don't need to put JUST ONE system on the plane. They can be made small enough that, if you're willing to compromise a bit on range, you can just stick several onto various parts of the plane to cover all the angles. Even if "compromise" means tens of kilometers instead of hundreds or thousands, that's still one up on an optical camera."

No actually it isn't one up on an optical camera in many ways, including range. For minimal power, you can have a system that can track stellar objects outside the solar system (used for navigation on probes/satellites), you can't do that with LIDAR in a practical sense. LIDAR has a role to play in countering Shadow systems, but it isn't really a single source solution.

Principally because our orbital LIDAR systems, which depend on solar panels, don't have the power to use in an outward-looking fashion against targets more than a few hundred kilometers away. However, ships and fighters carrying power plants superior to nuclear ones don't have to worry about that. The reason we're still finding natural satellites is because being based on Earth's surface causes problems for a long-range LIDAR system (we're talking hundreds of thousands of kilometers here) because of the atmosphere distorting the optical path of the beam. That leaves radio telescopes as the most effective solution for a surface-based observatory.

They aren't using LIDAR systems for primary discovery though, they use various spectrum cameras & telescopes (though IIRC radar is used on known bodies). Some are even discovered by space probes close to the planet w/cameras or by conventional space telescope (Hubble has found several additional moons around Pluto after all). Lasers have their role in terrestrial astronomy w/adaptive optics too, but that really isn't LIDAR.

[Seto Kaiba]

Now the new stuff I found out while refreshing myself with the way these things work was this. LiDAR works best against non-illuminated, reflective objects because these produce the strongest returns without getting washed out by any light being emitted by the object.

On a small scale, yes... but the degradation due to surface illumination is contingent primarily upon the frequencies of light illuminating that surface and the transmitting power of the laser itself.

Seeing as the primary stealth system encountered was one that emitted light, the electro-optical systems known to be on many mecha in the UEEF arsenal would be as good if not better than LiDAR at detecting incoming targets with Shadow Cloaking Devices.

The light emitted by a shadow field is fairly diffuse and low-intensity... it should pose at best a negligible impediment to detection by LIDAR, and offer little if any benefit to optical camera systems. The limiting factor for optical cameras is the limit of the lenses and focus mechanisms, while there are several forms of LIDAR receiver that don't suffer from those issues nearly as much because the amount of light that is needed to constitute a return is far lower.

Actually if Ep44 is any indication they would send the laser beam off in another direction (Dana's shot ricocheted several times off the walls before returning to hit the ground at her feet), meaning they might reflect/scatter the beam away from the emitter.

But according to official sources for Robotech, that is a solid-ammo cannon... not a laser.

(You may facepalm when ready, because we both know what the dialog says and I'm already doing it.)

For minimal power, you can have a system that can track stellar objects outside the solar system (used for navigation on probes/satellites), you can't do that with LIDAR in a practical sense. LIDAR has a role to play in countering Shadow systems, but it isn't really a single source solution.

The utility of optical cameras only works in long-term observation and analysis... LIDAR offers virtually instant results over distances of a light-second or so, which is all the range they actually NEED for their early warning system against shadow stealthed fighters.

(Mind you, it occurred to me that there's another way they should have been able to detect them... they have gravimetric sensors, so why can't they see the abnormalities in local gravitation caused by shadow fields?)

[Zer0 Kay]

Gotta wonder if satellite TV and civilian GPS would be available, given the vulnerability of satellite comm systems to spaceborne attack. Such things would probably be reserved for the military using hardened military-grade platforms(maybe even repurposed Zentraedi derelicts after the Rain of Death).

I agree with this since there would be a lot of junk floating in orbit. So non-military satellite communications would be almost impossible.

Cell phones would not be used because o this, unless a different type of system was used where the cell towers send the call through a telephone line. Even then it would only be limited to the large cities since telephone grids all over the world would have been severally damaged by the RoD.

I do see the internet being used after the Global Civil War (it was actually invented back in the 1960's), but after the RoD it would be limited due to the loss of infrastructure.

One thing a lot of people don't realize is that the Global Civil War would have caused military technology to possibly be several years ahead of what we had in 1999 because the opponents would have aimed to gain technological edge over one another. One only has to look at WWI and WWII as examples where warfare caused military tech to jump forward a few generations. Here is an interesting article that shows how much tech in an iPhone came from military/government applications. http://www.businessinsider.com/the-us-m ... ne-2014-10

As it pertains to passive stealth tech the F-117A officially entered service in 1983, and shared parts and avionics with the F-15, F-16, and F-18. So it is quite possible it was used during the Global Civil War. That said I can see a form of wide beam LIDAR (just an assumption on my part I really don't know the ins and out of LIDAR) being used to detect stealth aircraft, which would make further stealth aircraft.

In end whether or not to use RL tech in a Robotech RPG game would be up to the individual GM.

LIDAR would only work slightly better at detecting an F-117 for the same reason as radar. Part of the stealth is the material, which the LIDAR would probably not be affected by but the angled surfaces would cause the laser beam do deflect just like a radio beam. A LIDAR may work far better against an F-22 where the stealth is based on material and reduced cross section, depending on the size of the beam it may be able to find much smaller targets so wouldn't be confused by a drastically reduced radar signature.

A theory for detection of F-117 was to use the cell networks. A F-117 flying through an area covered would cause locatable network anomalies. I don't think it was ever proved... definitely never published.

[ShadowLogan]

But according to official sources for Robotech, that is a solid-ammo cannon... not a laser.

(You may facepalm when ready, because we both know what the dialog says and I'm already doing it.)

Well nothing in the dialogue really establishes it as a solid projectile cannon (even the curving trajectory IS technically possible with a laser, both technologically and natrually), and the dialogue should really take precedent here. I almost have to wonder how much "series" checking actually happens, even though that is supposed to be at the top of the chain.

Also the RT.com Infopedia does mention a beam cannon upgrade "A later variant developed just in time for the Second Robotech War was the VHT-1A1, which differed from the earlier model in that it replaced the heavy cannon with a large beam cannon. ", which a laser would qualify as (per dialogue, so Dana was using a -1A1). I know it doesn't exactly mesh with the RPG (1E or 2E), but in terms of official.

The utility of optical cameras only works in long-term observation and analysis... LIDAR offers virtually instant results over distances of a light-second or so, which is all the range they actually NEED for their early warning system against shadow stealthed fighters.

(Mind you, it occurred to me that there's another way they should have been able to detect them... they have gravimetric sensors, so why can't they see the abnormalities in local gravitation caused by shadow fields?)

Star Trackers used for navigation aren't going to be that long term though in exposure times. One I read the specs on form the company website listed >90% accuracy in 60sec. Another can acquire full field acquisition in 5sec (0.4sec reduced field of view) max time. And the Shuttle used star trackers during "rendezvous or proximity operations with a target satellite" (quote per NASA website), which really cuts into the argument that camera systems are by default slow. A LIDAR system will still need to process the data, just like a camera system.

As for gravity based sensing, I don't think that would work. Recall that the N-S warheads use their shadow devices to "cloak" the strong gravitational forces of the matter w/n the warhead (PttSC), and IIRC didn't the rescue mission to the SDF-3 use the Shadow Device at the end point of its journey near the blackhole? Shadow Fields might show up in other EM band images as "blank spots" in the background though (unless they can refract background emissions around them w/o any tell tale signs).

Star Tracker Links:
http://science.ksc.nasa.gov/shuttle/tec ... ar-tracker
http://www.ballaerospace.com/page.jsp?page=104 (quicklinks, these open PDF files)

LIDAR would only work slightly better at detecting an F-117 for the same reason as radar. Part of the stealth is the material, which the LIDAR would probably not be affected by but the angled surfaces would cause the laser beam do deflect just like a radio beam.

No it should be better at detection that radar. The angled surfaces and material are calibrated for specific frequency ranges, which LIDAR can operate away from. Plus LIDAR can be used in other ways to detect stealth aircraft.

[glitterboy2098]

the F-35's AN/AAQ-37 DAS (Distributed Aperture System) allows for real time optical targeting and tracking in 360 degree's, including automatic detection using image recognition. it uses a network of IR and visible light cameras positioned all around the fighter, tied into a central computer. it also provides enemy attack warnings, and when combined with the F-35's helmet mounded displays, the ability to see 'through' the plane and target high off-bore capable missile shots.

given UEEF mecha appear to have a similar distributed sensor gear (lens/ports in the nose, shoulders, knees, etc) it would not be too hard to believe they could whip up some software to use those for targeting and tracking as well as just weapons warning and basic vision.

a good summary of the abilities:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-f- ... 1636711504