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For those familiar with the game books, either first edition series or second edition series...

I am wondering if there is any reference either in statistics or descriptions, of missiles being used to target specific portions of specific targets, particularly things like limbs or wings or guns.

Outside of the RPG, for those who have good memories of Robotech or the anime it is based on, I am wondering if anyone remembers any particular instances (like episode number and perhaps how many minutes in the scene is) of missiles hitting and possibly destroying or damaging parts of the robot besides the torso, for example a limb, a sensor system, a gun, etc.

Also wondering, aside from any indirect (radius) damage that a gun or a limb might suffer from a missile or other kind of explosion, if there is any reference in the game to making called shots with any sort of missile against particular locations, or if there is any part of the anime where a missile directly targets such an area.

Tor wrote:Outside of the RPG, for those who have good memories of Robotech or the anime it is based on, I am wondering if anyone remembers any particular instances (like episode number and perhaps how many minutes in the scene is) of missiles hitting and possibly destroying or damaging parts of the robot besides the torso, for example a limb, a sensor system, a gun, etc.

It happens occasionally in Macross... one of the better examples being the episode "Kung-Fu Dandy" (No.16), which has Hikaru get shot down when he's hit multiple times (one hit shown is to the stabilizers).

Also shown in "Love Drifts Away"/"Love Flows By" (No.27), where Hikaru uses the forearms of his VF-1S and the attached Super Pack to absorb the brunt of a missile salvo headed his way.

Macross II has a fairly prominent scene where Sylvie's VF-2SS loses its head to an errant missile fired by Lord Feff's Gigamesh... though that, like the other examples, seems to have been more a case of the missile aiming for center mass and not quite getting there rather than an intentional shot at a limb or head.

Usually when it's specifically targeting an area in the animation, it's a gun rather than a missile... almost invariably one of the coaxial laser or beam gun systems, since they're the most precise.

Nothing about called shots and splash damage to other components from an in game perspective, Tor. Same rules for that as in the Rifts books.

First edition had optional random hit tables, but they only appeared in one book and didn't completely deal with all the mecha in the series. They were not repeated in the new edition. Closest the new edition gets to is random damage effects if a limb or similar suffers a critical strike.

As for stuff on screen, the game is an emulation of what happens on screen, but not perfectly so. Considerations for playability must be taken into account. For example, the pilots on some mecha (Hover Tanks and Cyclones) are at least partially exposed. If damage was done in game to all components of the target, you'd have the pilots of those mecha dying in any sort of area effect attack while their mecha remained fully functional. As those mecha are typically being operated by the players, killing them off so easily is in the realm of unplayably unfair. This is why none of the game text supports missiles and similar damaging anything other than the main body (with the exception of components used to shield the mecha from the attack).

Seto Kaiba wrote:"Kung-Fu Dandy" (No.16), which has Hikaru get shot down when he's hit multiple times (one hit shown is to the stabilizers).

Do you know if the 'stabilizers' are a separate hit location from the main body on whatever it is that Hikaru pilots, or could that be interpreted as hitting the main body?

Seto Kaiba wrote:Also shown in "Love Drifts Away"/"Love Flows By" (No.27), where Hikaru uses the forearms of his VF-1S and the attached Super Pack to absorb the brunt of a missile salvo headed his way.

That appears to fall under the block-sacrifice rule rather than a called shot to the arms

Seto Kaiba wrote:Macross II has a fairly prominent scene where Sylvie's VF-2SS loses its head to an errant missile fired by Lord Feff's Gigamesh... though that, like the other examples, seems to have been more a case of the missile aiming for center mass and not quite getting there rather than an intentional shot at a limb or head.

That sounds perfect... although since Macross II doesn't sound like it's part of Robotech, it might not count as canon for Palladium.

Also, I am going to hopefully forget that by the time it comes to watch Macross II.

Jefffar wrote:Nothing about called shots and splash damage to other components from an in game perspective, Tor. Same rules for that as in the Rifts books.

I am looking for anyone who wants to volunteer anything to the contrary (like perhaps a weapon description or picture showing missiles hitting or destroying a non-main area) not negation statements, since I can't test those.

Jefffar wrote:As for stuff on screen, the game is an emulation of what happens on screen, but not perfectly so. Considerations for playability must be taken into account. For example, the pilots on some mecha (Hover Tanks and Cyclones) are at least partially exposed.

Even exposed people might still be protected by damage-shaping rulings by GMs (like how someone behind a wall is not environmentally sealed but how it can create a void in an expanding damage sphere)

Jefffar wrote:If damage was done in game to all components of the target, you'd have the pilots of those mecha dying in any sort of area effect attack while their mecha remained fully functional.

That is deviating from my inquiry, which centers around whether or not non-main body things have been damaged by blast radii.

Other things being damaged and ALL things being damaged are different animals.

Someone can be 'exposed' (not fully sealed within) yet still not within a direct line of sight.

Regarding the Cyclone and the Hover-tank, do you know if there are examples in the Robotech anime of someone piloting these and being hit by a missile? I would like to look into that.

Shadow Chronicles 139 mentions that Cyclone pilots also wear their own personal body-armor underneath, which could protect them when it's in motor-cycle form. So this would provide some MDC protection for pilots preventing them from being insta-killed by a missile hitting the cycle. Only naked riders in SDC clothing would be at risk.

Another consideration is that if a missile hit the main body on the front or underside, the shape of the cycle could blast-shield the rider, but perhaps not other components like the wheels.

If the rider is wearing the CVR-3 armor and it got damaged by a missile they could also protect themselves further by shifting to the humanoid form so that the robot would now be supplementing their protection.

Tor wrote:Do you know if the 'stabilizers' are a separate hit location from the main body on whatever it is that Hikaru pilots, or could that be interpreted as hitting the main body?

... not up on aircraft terminology, I take it? The part hit in the scene in question was a vertical stabilizer, the vertical part of the aircraft's "tail". It is, on examination, a separate part of the hit location chart for RT2E. Though, it's worth noting that, like pretty much every example of this I can find that involves the use of missiles rather than guns, the shooter wasn't actually aiming to hit that... and, in fact, was the perpetrator of a friendly fire incident.

Missiles generally go for center mass in the animation used in Robotech...

Tor wrote:That sounds perfect... although since Macross II doesn't sound like it's part of Robotech, it might not count as canon for Palladium.

No, Macross II is not part of Robotech... and, as I noted, that was likely also not an intentional move on Lord Feff's part. Sylvie changed modes while he was shooting and was flying up and backwards, so the missiles likely found the head completely by accident. I can think of one or two incidents in other Macross titles where missiles clearly hit somewhere other than center mass, but those instances are usually in fighter mode, where everything is wrapped around the bits that would be called the "main body".

Tor wrote:Regarding the Cylone and the Hover-tank, do you know if there are examples in the Robotech anime of someone piloting these and being hit by a missile? I would like to look into that.

The Robotech Masters weren't really big on missiles... nor, for that matter, were the Invid. They both used energy weapons pretty much exclusively... the only real exception being the Ghoss (I forget what they called it in Robotech), which the Inbit humanoids used. Unfortunately, if memory serves the only time the Ghoss ever scored a direct hit with its missiles was to the "main body" area.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Tor wrote:Do you know if the 'stabilizers' are a separate hit location from the main body on whatever it is that Hikaru pilots, or could that be interpreted as hitting the main body?

... not up on aircraft terminology, I take it?

I suck at planes. But regardless of knowledge, all that matters is whether or not it was made a distinct hit location, was hoping to check it out if given a page number since I haven't comitted the Robotech vehicles to memory as well as I have CS/NGR stuff.

Seto Kaiba wrote: The part hit in the scene in question was a vertical stabilizer, the vertical part of the aircraft's "tail". It is, on examination, a separate part of the hit location chart for RT2E. Though, it's worth noting that, like pretty much every example of this I can find that involves the use of missiles rather than guns, the shooter wasn't actually aiming to hit that... and, in fact, was the perpetrator of a friendly fire incident.

That's a valid thing to consider, in which case, I totally want some kind of 'narrow miss clipping' rules. Like say if you manage to dodge a strike merely by 'defender wins ties' then in that case, the main evades the missile (or any other weapon) but it clips a random secondary location of your vehicle? Would be cool.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Missiles generally go for center mass in the animation used in Robotech...

Fair enough... though I still wonder if this might reflect the tendency of guided or smart versus unguided.

Pilots may have the option of hitting non-main locations but opt for main since it's the easiest to aim at and guarantees a hit.

Seto Kaiba wrote:changed modes while he was shooting and was flying up and backwards, so the missiles likely found the head completely by accident.

Accidental non-main hit rules would be cool, we should demand them if Palladium makes any more Robotech books, or else maybe someone could make a Rifter submission and do up tables for all the Robotech bots and maybe even for Rifts ones?

Seto Kaiba wrote:I can think of one or two incidents in other Macross titles where missiles clearly hit somewhere other than center mass, but those instances are usually in fighter mode, where everything is wrapped around the bits that would be called the "main body".

If hit locations still exist in fighter mode then it seems legitimate.

Tor wrote:That's a valid thing to consider, in which case, I totally want some kind of 'narrow miss clipping' rules. Like say if you manage to dodge a strike merely by 'defender wins ties' then in that case, the main evades the missile (or any other weapon) but it clips a random secondary location of your vehicle? Would be cool.

If the evidence of that scene is anything to go by, the missiles are of sufficient power that being clipped effectively means you take the same damage as a regular hit. I mean, that barrage downed a VF-1J so hard that its pilot almost didn't survive even after ejection. To best match the animation, a miss should probably mean you weren't hit at all.

Tor wrote:Fair enough... though I still wonder if this might reflect the tendency of guided or smart versus unguided.

Unlikely, IMO... as there are no "unguided" missiles in the animation.

The overwhelming majority of missiles in the series are presented as being of the "fire and forget" type, which means active or passive homing guidance. Per the OSM, most of the Macross missiles have more than one homing guidance technology installed, and the MOSPEADA missiles also seem to be "fire and forget" types, though guidance is not elaborated upon in detail.

Tor wrote:If hit locations still exist in fighter mode then it seems legitimate.

I think it doesn't really capture the reality of it... "main body" doesn't really mean "center mass". In the fighter mode, "center mass" can cover as many as five or six different hit locations in Palladium's stats.

Jefffar wrote:Nothing about called shots and splash damage to other components from an in game perspective, Tor. Same rules for that as in the Rifts books.

First edition had optional random hit tables, but they only appeared in one book and didn't completely deal with all the mecha in the series. They were not repeated in the new edition. Closest the new edition gets to is random damage effects if a limb or similar suffers a critical strike.

As for stuff on screen, the game is an emulation of what happens on screen, but not perfectly so. Considerations for playability must be taken into account. For example, the pilots on some mecha (Hover Tanks and Cyclones) are at least partially exposed. If damage was done in game to all components of the target, you'd have the pilots of those mecha dying in any sort of area effect attack while their mecha remained fully functional. As those mecha are typically being operated by the players, killing them off so easily is in the realm of unplayably unfair. This is why none of the game text supports missiles and similar damaging anything other than the main body (with the exception of components used to shield the mecha from the attack).

Ah Jefffar in 1e the mini missiles could be used for called shots, one or two could be aimed any more counted as a burst and we also got to add PP bonus for hth. RT bk 5: II first printing 1988, pg. 29

I can understand why it migrated to rifts without this... cuz mini-missiles are just rockets there, but why did they migrate from Rifts to RT 2e, instead of RT 1e to 2e? Wookie defense here... if the analogy doesn't fit you must acquit.

For as far as Macross II and PB canon... Don't forget Macross II was part of PBs line.

Zer0 Kay wrote:For as far as Macross II and PB canon... Don't forget Macross II was part of PBs line.

True... though Palladium was pretty quick to acknowledge in the books that Macross II was a totally separate universe from Robotech, and the content of the books bears almost no resemblance to the Macross II: Lovers Again setting. (Big West doesn't seem to acknowledge it either.)

Mind you, the rules for missiles don't seem to prohibit using micro-missiles for called shots... and it also contains some rudimentary rules for near-miss splash damage. The animation, however, never shows a situation that could arguably be someone making a called shot with a missile. Missiles always go for the center mass of the target, and the incident where one of Feff's missiles blows the head off Sylvie's VF on the battleship Sarride seems to have been an evasion-induced accident.

(At least one of the things they got correct was that all missiles are self-guided.)

Zer0 Kay

Both true, except that 1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition so the rules from the previous no longer apply and Macross II is no longer being produced. So using either as evidence is a case of "The rules used to say this, but they say something else now."

Jefffar wrote:Both true, except that 1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition so the rules from the previous no longer apply and Macross II is no longer being produced. So using either as evidence is a case of "The rules used to say this, but they say something else now."

Also true, but explicitly irrelevant to the OP's inquiry... which is specifically open to the text of both 1st and 2nd Edition.

Whether or not to count instances occurring in Macross II is a whole other bundle of trouble, but the sort of thing the OP's asking for is a once-in-a-blue-moon sort of thing... particularly since Robotech antagonists have exactly one non-Zentradi unit that uses missiles, and arguably none of those were what could be called a "called shot" situation where someone was specifically TRYING to hit a non-vital area on some mecha with missiles. Guns? That's a lot more common.

Jefffar wrote:Zer0 Kay

Both true, except that 1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition so the rules from the previous no longer apply and Macross II is no longer being produced. So using either as evidence is a case of "The rules used to say this, but they say something else now."

Well it does hold true that mini missiles did work per 1e rules but filtered into 2e through Rifts, broke them, turning them from missiles into rockets incapable of doing what they do in the anime.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Zer0 Kay

Both true, except that 1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition so the rules from the previous no longer apply and Macross II is no longer being produced. So using either as evidence is a case of "The rules used to say this, but they say something else now."

Well it does hold true that mini missiles did work per 1e rules but filtered into 2e through Rifts, broke them, turning them from missiles into rockets incapable of doing what they do in the anime.

in my copy of the shadow chronicles (1st printing manga size march 08 )
pg 244 under the combat there is an EXPLICIT note that mini-missiles unlike their larger predecessors are NOT guided, but if the char has wp heavy md weapons those bonuses apply, and if the mecha/vehicle or weapon says there are bonuses then they apply also.

guardiandashi wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Jefffar wrote:Zer0 Kay

Both true, except that 1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition so the rules from the previous no longer apply and Macross II is no longer being produced. So using either as evidence is a case of "The rules used to say this, but they say something else now."

Well it does hold true that mini missiles did work per 1e rules but filtered into 2e through Rifts, broke them, turning them from missiles into rockets incapable of doing what they do in the anime.

in my copy of the shadow chronicles (1st printing manga size march 08 )
pg 244 under the combat there is an EXPLICIT note that mini-missiles unlike their larger predecessors are NOT guided, but if the char has wp heavy md weapons those bonuses apply, and if the mecha/vehicle or weapon says there are bonuses then they apply also.

Yup as I stated already filtered through Rifts, that is a cut and paste from RUE.

Seto Kaiba wrote:If the evidence of that scene is anything to go by, the missiles are of sufficient power that being clipped effectively means you take the same damage as a regular hit.

Naw, more like evidence that the head getting destroyed messes up the bot and that the rest that is not directly hit still takes blast radius damage, which means the main body could still take 1/2.

Seto Kaiba wrote:To best match the animation, a miss should probably mean you weren't hit at all.

If someone can aim for the main body and accidentally hit something else, we should have rules to reflect that.

Seto Kaiba wrote:there are no "unguided" missiles in the animation.

The overwhelming majority of missiles in the series are presented as being of the "fire and forget" type, which means active or passive homing guidance.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between active or passive here.

So when you say majority, does that mean there are a few missiles which were NOT fire-and-forget?

If so, if not unguided, what were they? Guided but not re-adjusting?

Seto Kaiba wrote: Per the OSM, most of the Macross missiles have more than one homing guidance technology installed, and the MOSPEADA missiles also seem to be "fire and forget" types, though guidance is not elaborated upon in detail.

Makes me wonder the total number of different homing guidance tech options that exist.

Seto Kaiba wrote:"main body" doesn't really mean "center mass". In the fighter mode, "center mass" can cover as many as five or six different hit locations in Palladium's stats.

I don't think the SDF-1 even has a main body... wonder if that means you need called shots to hit the thing at all...

Which is weird because it seems like it would be near-impossible to miss something so massive.

Jefffar wrote:1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition
the rules from the previous no longer apply

Source?

Palladium's slogan is "1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter!" so that leads me to think we can play whatever edition we like, and that first-editions apply eternally.

If you have a problem resolving differences between the two, treating them as separate dimensions resolves it easily.

I do not think we have been canonically told that 1st Eds and 2nd Eds are the same dimension, so that option is open to us.

Tor wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:there are no "unguided" missiles in the animation.

The overwhelming majority of missiles in the series are presented as being of the "fire and forget" type, which means active or passive homing guidance.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between active or passive here.

So when you say majority, does that mean there are a few missiles which were NOT fire-and-forget?

If so, if not unguided, what were they? Guided but not re-adjusting?

truly unguided is something like a rocket from a LAW, a bazooka, a rocket pod attached to a vehicle, or similar. basically you trigger it and it goes in a straight (more or less) line until it hits something and detonates.

then you have what I am going to call active guidance which is when the weapon itself missile or similar, has a radar or similar that creates its own seek and kill loop commonly termed fire and forget missiles, IE they are triggered and the launcher no longer has any control over the weapon.

the third category is what I am going to call semi guided, these rely upon an external guidance "assist" in order to find their target.
things like laser homing (laser designated) Tow's, heat seekers, gps guided, HARM, etc would fall into this category.

now I am going to concede that many weapons will have multiple guidance options, like many of the modern HARM missiles in an article I read about them, the newer ones used by USA and similar (and this was likely ~10 years old) have an "emission source seeker, and a gps mode" which means you are running a Sam site radar system, you run your radar to try to pick up enemy planes to shoot at and they fire a HARM missile at your radar. the old trick (which worked on the emission only homing missiles) would be to turn off your radar thus depriving the missile of the signal it is homing on. with the newer gps additional guidance missiles it sees your radar source, and notes the coordinates and elevation, and if it looses the emissions signal (your radar) it goes to the last coordinates and detonates, which because of the nature of SAM systems usually kills your radar system anyway.

I realize active, semi, and unguided aren't terms the game uses, but they are probably more accurate than what the writers used. (at least for concept)

Tor wrote:Naw, more like evidence that the head getting destroyed messes up the bot and that the rest that is not directly hit still takes blast radius damage, which means the main body could still take 1/2. [...]

Honestly, I can't find any animated precedent for the missile's "splash" damage being enough to cause a significant/noticeable amount of damage to any area of the mecha not hit by the blast. Even Macross II's one example didn't have Sylvie's VF-2SS take any damage elsewhere from the hit when a missile decapitated it.

Tor wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:To best match the animation, a miss should probably mean you weren't hit at all.

If someone can aim for the main body and accidentally hit something else, we should have rules to reflect that.

Therein lies a problem of classification... "center mass" and "main body" are not the same thing. Active and semi-active RADAR homing missiles are going to track in on center mass (the physical middle of the craft), which on a VF in fighter mode would include not only the RPG's "main body" but also the legs and intakes and backpack (but not the cockpit). From a ventral view, the head would also be part of center mass in fighter mode. A infrared passive homing missile is going to lock onto high heat signatures (the engines).

Almost nothing is going to be aiming for what the RPG calls the "main body" because that's usually what they call the area around the cockpit.

Tor wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:there are no "unguided" missiles in the animation.

The overwhelming majority of missiles in the series are presented as being of the "fire and forget" type, which means active or passive homing guidance.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between active or passive here.

No problem. Both types of missiles have an onboard guidance system that uses feedback from sensors aboard the missile to plot the missile's course to its target. An active homing system has some kind of sensor system that's sending out energy to be reflected from the target and tracking the target through that reflected energy (e.g. active RADAR homing, where the missile contains a tiny search RADAR). On passive homing missiles, the missile's sensors are not transmitting anything... they track energy that is given off by the target, such as the heat of its engines.

Tor wrote:So when you say majority, does that mean there are a few missiles which were NOT fire-and-forget?

We cannot say with absolute certainty that the Alpha's missiles are "fire and forget" types, since they're not given to exhibiting the same acrobatics as Macross's missiles and usually aren't fired unless the firing Alpha is flying a relatively stable course. They might be semi-active homing missiles (which means they could be tracking a radar beam transmitted by the fighter instead of a radar in the missile).

The VF-1 in Macross is stated to be compatible with a wide variety of NATO ordinance options that includes the various US-made low-drag bombs, cluster bombs, glide bombs, air-to-ground and air-to-air missiles, and even conventional nuclear bombs, several of which are unguided, manually guided, or use semi-active radar homing.

Tor wrote:If so, if not unguided, what were they? Guided but not re-adjusting?

Possibly semi-active homing.

Tor wrote:Makes me wonder the total number of different homing guidance tech options that exist.

I'm sure there's quite a variety... homing guidance falls into three (and a half) categories: active, passive, and semi-active. The "and-a-half" part being retransmission homing, a hybrid of homing and command guidance technologies. In science fiction, the plethora of non-traditional sensor technologies would give rather more variety to the active and passive homing categories beyond just radar, laser, and infrared.

Tor wrote:Palladium's slogan is "1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter!" so that leads me to think we can play whatever edition we like, and that first-editions apply eternally.

Harmony Gold's stated stance is that the 1st Edition RPG is not Robotech, so take that for what you will...

Tor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition
the rules from the previous no longer apply

Source?

Palladium's slogan is "1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter!" so that leads me to think we can play whatever edition we like, and that first-editions apply eternally.

If you have a problem resolving differences between the two, treating them as separate dimensions resolves it easily.

I do not think we have been canonically told that 1st Eds and 2nd Eds are the same dimension, so that option is open to us.

I'd say the slogan of Palladium is more likely "Explore the RPG Megaverse of Palladium Books." What you're quoting is a information blurb from the PFRPG forum, and you've not quoted the entire line which concludes with "Let's just talk Palladium Fantasy."

You're also ignoring the fact that these are licensed properties, which means that other companies have influence over their existence and status. As Seto pointed out, Harmony Gold has essentially disavowed the first edition of Robotech RPG so it's rules don't apply anymore.

Macross II is a different RPG, so what's in it can't necessarily be used to draw conclusions that impcat the Robotech RPG nor any other RPG for that matter. And, as with the first edition of the Robotech RPG, the licensee has ended the licence, effectively killing the game.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, both RPGs are going to be imperfect emulations of what happens on screen. The needs of gaming will generally require a bit of sacrifice in regards to accuracy, so everything seen on screen won't necessarily be exactly reflected in the rules.

Jefffar wrote:

Tor wrote:

Jefffar wrote:1st Edition has now been replaced by the 2nd Edition
the rules from the previous no longer apply

Source?

Palladium's slogan is "1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter!" so that leads me to think we can play whatever edition we like, and that first-editions apply eternally.

If you have a problem resolving differences between the two, treating them as separate dimensions resolves it easily.

I do not think we have been canonically told that 1st Eds and 2nd Eds are the same dimension, so that option is open to us.

I'd say the slogan of Palladium is more likely "Explore the RPG Megaverse of Palladium Books." What you're quoting is a information blurb from the PFRPG forum, and you've not quoted the entire line which concludes with "Let's just talk Palladium Fantasy."

You're also ignoring the fact that these are licensed properties, which means that other companies have influence over their existence and status. As Seto pointed out, Harmony Gold has essentially disavowed the first edition of Robotech RPG so it's rules don't apply anymore.

Macross II is a different RPG, so what's in it can't necessarily be used to draw conclusions that impcat the Robotech RPG nor any other RPG for that matter. And, as with the first edition of the Robotech RPG, the licensee has ended the licence, effectively killing the game.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, both RPGs are going to be imperfect emulations of what happens on screen. The needs of gaming will generally require a bit of sacrifice in regards to accuracy, so everything seen on screen won't necessarily be exactly reflected in the rules.

Nor will everything seen on screen necessarily be included in the rules. RT 1E VF not able to fly in battloid mode. Both editions Alphas can't link and synchronize launch, or what ever you want to call what they did with the two alphas back to back. Macross II Metal Siren doesn't have the energy blast weapon. RT, definitely in 1e, don't recall in 2e, can't fire VF wing missiles in battloid mode, when in was clearly done by Ben inside the Zentradi ship providing an opening so we can see that Zentradi can withstand the harshest environment, space.

Guided passive it active doesn't equal fire and forget. Most missiles IRL need to have a target acquired prior to launch, THIS is not fire and forget. A missile that is fire and forget is capable of acquiring its own target. The pilot doesn't have to acquire the target, the pilot doesn't have to keep a reticule on the target to keep whatever sensor the aircraft is using to paint the target. The pilot presses the button and forgets about it. GPS ordinance may qualify for this category, cruise missiles certainly do and IIRC the image guided maverick was among these.

Jefffar wrote:You're also ignoring the fact that these are licensed properties, which means that other companies have influence over their existence and status. As Seto pointed out, Harmony Gold has essentially disavowed the first edition of Robotech RPG so it's rules don't apply anymore.

Yep... though it must be admitted that Harmony Gold's reasons for the aforementioned disavowal of the "First Edition" RPG are just variations on the theme of "It deviates way too much from the setting or the content of the animation".

Jefffar wrote:Macross II is a different RPG, so what's in it can't necessarily be used to draw conclusions that impcat the Robotech RPG nor any other RPG for that matter. And, as with the first edition of the Robotech RPG, the licensee has ended the licence, effectively killing the game.

I'd be hesitant to apply anything from Macross II to Robotech for two reasons:

Reason #1 is that the Palladium Books Macross II RPG is actually far worse, accuracy-wise, than the "First Edition" Robotech RPG... to the extent that it's actually quite perplexing.

Reason #2 is that, when accurately represented, the Macross II setting (and Macross in general) is much, MUCH more technologically advanced than the Robotech 'verse... and as a result, they can do a lot of things Robotech mecha can't, and their armor and weapons are more potent as well.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Guided passive it active doesn't equal fire and forget. Most missiles IRL need to have a target acquired prior to launch, THIS is not fire and forget. A missile that is fire and forget is capable of acquiring its own target.

Incorrect. The definition of "fire and forget" is that the missile can guide itself after launch and does not require an outside station to supply guidance information (e.g. painting the target with a laser or a radar beam, wire guidance, etc.).

A "fire and forget" missile needs to have a target acquired before launch, the same as any other. Where they differ is that the firing platform doesn't need to keep directing the missile after launch (the way that semi-active guidance systems do).

Some missiles have a lock on after launch capability, though this happens with both fire and forget missiles and missiles that respond to inputs from their carrier.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Even Macross II's one example didn't have Sylvie's VF-2SS take any damage elsewhere from the hit when a missile decapitated it.

Did it explode? Was it a big boom? I'm wondering if it might've been something like a low-radius AP which could explain the restriction of damage from other areas and how it could 1-hit a head.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Both types of missiles have an onboard guidance system that uses feedback from sensors aboard the missile to plot the missile's course to its target.
An active homing system has some kind of sensor system that's sending out energy to be reflected from the target and tracking the target through that reflected energy (e.g. active RADAR homing, where the missile contains a tiny search RADAR).
On passive homing missiles, the missile's sensors are not transmitting anything... they track energy that is given off by the target, such as the heat of its engines.

That clears things up, thanks. I can see how both would be useful.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Harmony Gold's stated stance is that the 1st Edition RPG is not Robotech, so take that for what you will...

How did they word that exactly? Did they condemn it when it came out, or only when v2 (ShadowChron) came out to promote sales of the new game? If not Robotech I don't know what they thought 1st Ed was. Surely whoever ran HG at the time during the 80s thought it was Robotech or they would not have approved it...

HG complaining about a re-presentation of a story deviating from the preceding canon, the irony.

Jefffar wrote:You're also ignoring the fact that these are licensed properties, which means that other companies have influence over their existence and status.

Those who own a 1st ed book hold a stronger influence over their existence, they have the right to play those games. I believe in a sense of fan-property. Much like how DC can rewrite their multiverse and say 'it now was not like this before' it doesn't stop fans from knowing and accepting that the de-written past still happened and could still leak through into the new reality.

Jefffar wrote:As Seto pointed out, Harmony Gold has essentially disavowed the first edition of Robotech RPG so it's rules don't apply anymore.

The product was put out there, fans bought it, they own the right to have it exist and to play it, later disavowing what they view as a stale ruleset or inferior-to-newer-version doesn't mean it doesn't apply, just that they don't focus on it. They do not have the authority to forbid fans from playing.

I mean, technically Palladium doesn't have the TMNT license so canonically we're pressured to consider AtB a separate dimension per 2nd Ed and not a dystopian future of TMNT per the original sourcebook (supported by Transdimensional) but that's how I still view it.

There's really no conflict, Transdimensional paints a web that accepts all alternate realities. I mean heck, they even stat the mutant girl who isn't canonical in the main TMNT timeline: she still exists even though she is not canon, because you don't have to be in the main storyline's universe to exist.

Tor wrote:Did it explode? Was it a big boom? I'm wondering if it might've been something like a low-radius AP which could explain the restriction of damage from other areas and how it could 1-hit a head.

It did explode, but it wasn't exactly a large explosion... it looked like it exploded against the "face" of the mecha and the head sort of shattered and fell off.

Tor wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:Harmony Gold's stated stance is that the 1st Edition RPG is not Robotech, so take that for what you will...

How did they word that exactly? Did they condemn it when it came out, or only when v2 (ShadowChron) came out to promote sales of the new game? [...]

It was something they did as part of the "reboot" of Robotech in the early 2000s, before Palladium's reacquisition of the Robotech license. The first time they really talked about it with fans was on an interview Harmony Gold PR man Kevin McKeever had with the Space Station Liberty podcast. The way it was put was that, because Harmony Gold hadn't been keeping a close eye on what its licensees did while the franchise was in virtual hibernation, the licensees had put out a lot of poor quality and/or inconsistent (both internally and with other works) material that they didn't feel was representative of Robotech and that they were making a clean break with it to focus on developing new Robotech material.

The RPG was almost collateral damage... most of the focus was on the novels and old comics. I suspect the former was denied official alternate universe status because of its controversial status in the fandom and the latter was quietly binned because Harmony Gold didn't want people asking for reprints of comics that had a fairly severe recurring problem with copyright infringement.

Tor wrote:If not Robotech I don't know what they thought 1st Ed was. Surely whoever ran HG at the time during t1he 80s thought it was Robotech or they would not have approved it...

According to Harmony Gold, they basically weren't paying attention to what their licensees were doing... let alone exerting any quality control or editorial review over what was coming out. Kevin Siembieda's own interview after RT2E was announced talked a fair bit about how 1E had basically been written with equal parts OSM and guesswork due to a lack of guidance and support from Harmony Gold.

Tor wrote:The product was put out there, fans bought it, they own the right to have it exist and to play it, later disavowing what they view as a stale ruleset or inferior-to-newer-version doesn't mean it doesn't apply, just that they don't focus on it. They do not have the authority to forbid fans from playing.

True! It's just that, from a Harmony Gold perspective that game is not really in line with Robotech's official setting... and from a Palladium Books perspective it's an older edition whose rules have gotten an overdue update to address Harmony Gold's issues with 1E.

The sort of expected general practice when a new edition of a game comes out is that the new rules will overrule the old.

Better question I guess is whether HG endorsed the 2nd Ed (ShadowChron) or if they are still not acknowledging it and planning to bash it as soon as the Palladium license expires again.

I really do not much care how they think it represents Robotech, Palladium is probably closer to Robotech than Robotech is to Macross.

Tor wrote:Better question I guess is whether HG endorsed the 2nd Ed (ShadowChron) or if they are still not acknowledging it and planning to bash it as soon as the Palladium license expires again.

Well, one of the big bullet points for RT2E on Harmony Gold's side was that Harmony Gold is exercising its editorial review and veto powers to the fullest to ensure the game is reasonably consistent with the canon setting. So, I don't know if you'd say they've endorsed it, as it's still non-canon, but they've given it their metaphorical "seal of approval".

Tor wrote:I really do not much care how they think it represents Robotech, Palladium is probably closer to Robotech than Robotech is to Macross.

Unfortunately (for you, I guess, not s'much for me), Palladium is very much concerned with how closely it represents Robotech because the manuscript has to pass inspection at Harmony Gold before release.

To be entirely fair, through no fault of Palladium's RT1E was pretty much Robotech in name only... RT2E is a LOT closer. (Admittedly, that's mostly becuase Harmony Gold is actively involved in it, and there's an official canon this time around, even if it is basically just "copy-paste the OSM and have done with it".)

It must be admitted that I honestly cannot find a single instance of someone making something analogous to a "called shot" with a missile in Robotech's animation... against another mecha.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Guided passive it active doesn't equal fire and forget. Most missiles IRL need to have a target acquired prior to launch, THIS is not fire and forget. A missile that is fire and forget is capable of acquiring its own target.

Incorrect. The definition of "fire and forget" is that the missile can guide itself after launch and does not require an outside station to supply guidance information (e.g. painting the target with a laser or a radar beam, wire guidance, etc.).

A "fire and forget" missile needs to have a target acquired before launch, the same as any other. Where they differ is that the firing platform doesn't need to keep directing the missile after launch (the way that semi-active guidance systems do).

Then why are the AMRAAM, and sidewinder which have active guidance not listed among fire and forget while the mavrick which can be pre programmed is?

Zer0 Kay wrote:Then why are the AMRAAM, and sidewinder which have active guidance not listed among fire and forget while the mavrick which can be pre programmed is?

Simply put... as defined, a "fire and forget" missile is a missile with the ability to guide itself after firing, without the intervention of an external source of guidance data.

You'll find the AGM-65 Maverick, AIM-9 Sidewinder, and AIM-120 AMRAAM are all classified under "fire and forget"-capable missiles. As you describe, the Maverick is programmed before launch and then tracks the intended target autonomously. That is the very definition of "fire and forget".

The majority of the AIM-9 variants ARE, in fact, "fire and forget" missiles which use passive infrared guidance. However, the "fire and forget" classification doesn't apply to the AIM-9 family as a whole due to the AIM-9C, which used semi-active radar homing instead... which requires the illumination of the target in flight by a radar source external to the missile.

Lastly, the AIM-120 AMRAAM is "fire and forget" capable... and under normal circumstances it IS fired as a "fire and forget" missile. The catch is that the AMRAAM has optional hardware that will allow it to receive updated guidance information from the firing platform during its inertial guidance stage before the active radar homing system cuts in... which means that, with that optional hardware, the AIM-120 uses a hybrid of command guidance and active homing.

(If you look on Wikipedia, you'll actually find that all three are listed as examples of "Fire and forget" missiles.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:Then why are the AMRAAM, and sidewinder which have active guidance not listed among fire and forget while the mavrick which can be pre programmed is?

Simply put... as defined, a "fire and forget" missile is a missile with the ability to guide itself after firing, without the intervention of an external source of guidance data.

You'll find the AGM-65 Maverick, AIM-9 Sidewinder, and AIM-120 AMRAAM are all classified under "fire and forget"-capable missiles. As you describe, the Maverick is programmed before launch and then tracks the intended target autonomously. That is the very definition of "fire and forget".

The majority of the AIM-9 variants ARE, in fact, "fire and forget" missiles which use passive infrared guidance. However, the "fire and forget" classification doesn't apply to the AIM-9 family as a whole due to the AIM-9C, which used semi-active radar homing instead... which requires the illumination of the target in flight by a radar source external to the missile.

Lastly, the AIM-120 AMRAAM is "fire and forget" capable... and under normal circumstances it IS fired as a "fire and forget" missile. The catch is that the AMRAAM has optional hardware that will allow it to receive updated guidance information from the firing platform during its inertial guidance stage before the active radar homing system cuts in... which means that, with that optional hardware, the AIM-120 uses a hybrid of command guidance and active homing.

(If you look on Wikipedia, you'll actually find that all three are listed as examples of "Fire and forget" missiles.)

How bout we use a source that can't be changed by anyone? Darn fas.org says pretty much the same thing.

Wikipedia is fine so long as it actually sources the claim, which doesn't always happen. FAS.org would have to source the claim too. Presumably to an episode/time or some kind of official data book.

Zer0 Kay wrote:How bout we use a source that can't be changed by anyone?

I actually referenced a couple of books on aerial warfare when I was writing that... just checked Wikipedia on a lark to see if the internet's lowest common denominator for research had come to the same conclusion.

Zer0 Kay wrote:Darn fas.org says pretty much the same thing.

Yep... though I did learn something new while I was looking all that up. The AIM-120D's command guidance option is actually a safety measure intended to guard against friendly fire accidents, because the AMRAAM's active RADAR seeker would otherwise lock onto the first target it sees, friend or foe, once it's off of inertial guidance. It CAN be fired as a proper fire-and-forget missile, and sometimes is, but is often not because it poses a safety hazard if there are friendly aircraft in the target's vicinity.


It's a good illustration of the practical problems of a "called shot" with a missile... most guidance systems just won't let you get that specific. A RADAR or LASER semi-active or active homing missile is going to go for the area of the greatest signal reflectivity (usually center mass), and an infrared is going to go for the largest detected heat source (the engines)

Neither one of those areas usually overlaps with the Palladium notion of "center mass".

On reflection, I suppose it would be theoretically possible for an optically guided missile (camera, LIDAR) to track onto a specific part of the airframe... though it wouldn't really offer an improvement over using a laser or particle beam weapon.

AMRAAM isn't IR. it's a radar based seeker in all its AAM variants.

the only IR seeker version is an anti-ballistic missile variant still in development as part of the NCADE, and that one uses a kinetic kill warhead.

so if your source is claiming the command datalink is for friendly fire prevention due to an IR seeker, either your source is getting their missiles mixed up, or is just making **** up.

the datalink is for more accurate navigation to the target, since the two way link allows the firing platform to refine the course using its own sensors to augment the missiles inertial guidance system prior to intercept stage missile onboard radar activation.

glitterboy2098 wrote:AMRAAM isn't IR. it's a radar based seeker in all its AAM variants.

You're right. I didn't even notice that gaffe on my part. Got it right in the first post, and wrong in the second. D'oh.

glitterboy2098 wrote:so if your source is claiming the command datalink is for friendly fire prevention due to an IR seeker, either your source is getting their missiles mixed up, or is just making **** up.

's operator error on my part. I meant to type "active radar" and typed "infrared" instead. The book I've been referencing for the AIM-120's interception guidance phase does say RADAR and not infrared. Dunno how I managed that one, but that screw-up's on me, not my referenced source.