Need Help with Party challenges

[Sparticus]

Ok I have a game set to go here in a few days and I need help with some challenges for the party. The party is all 5th level and will include:

A brother/sister teem piloting a Gunwolf

A Russian Hammer & Sickle Cyborg (who by the way plays the Russian anthem while going into battle)

Layline Walker

A firebird (yes an anthro bird) D-Bee that's soothing akin to a buster and a Warlock with Fire element

An Ice Dragoness hatchling

Rouge Scholar

Cyber-Knight traveling as protection for Rouge Scholar

This menagerie has traveled to the broken cost, what was once the United Stat's West Cost, to help a town besieged by monsters and a rouge band of orcs hold up in an old diamond and gem mine that's getting support from an as yet unknown party. Now the monsters in the forest and elsewhere are simple enough but the real problem I am having is with the orcs. How to make them a credible threat to the party or should I replace them with another type of D-Bee or creatures. Alternatively is it just enough to have them as the thralls to a more powerful monster(s). Any suggestions or tips would be awesome.

[guardiandashi]

Ok I have a game set to go here in a few days and I need help with some challenges for the party. The party is all 5th level and will include:

A brother/sister teem piloting a Gunwolf

A Russian Hammer & Sickle Cyborg (who by the way plays the Russian anthem while going into battle)

Layline Walker

A firebird (yes an anthro bird) D-Bee that's soothing akin to a buster and a Warlock with Fire element

An Ice Dragoness hatchling

Rouge Scholar

Cyber-Knight traveling as protection for Rouge Scholar

This menagerie has traveled to the broken cost, what was once the United Stat's West Cost, to help a town besieged by monsters and a rouge band of orcs hold up in an old diamond and gem mine that's getting support from an as yet unknown party. Now the monsters in the forest and elsewhere are simple enough but the real problem I am having is with the orcs. How to make them a credible threat to the party or should I replace them with another type of D-Bee or creatures. Alternatively is it just enough to have them as the thralls to a more powerful monster(s). Any suggestions or tips would be awesome.

first IMO it depends on how much of a threat you want the orcs to be.
minor threats, no significant threat, to possible party wipe threat.

at the no threat/minor threat level make them either sdc beings with piecemeal (scavenged) mdc armor and mostly sdc weapons with the occasional mdc weapon. (they are only a threat if the party goofs up and lets themselves get swarmed /overwhelmed. )

at a higher threat level make them minor mdc, similar armor (but more and better) more common or all armed with some kind of mdc weapon...

at the extreme end they are either major mdc critters, with significant mdc weapons, and lots of siege weapons, and or full body armor and .....

myself I would tend to go with a compromise.

have there be "rings of difficulty" IE random patrols/encounters are mostly on the little to no mdc level.
serious patrols or encampments are going to be progressively nastier encounters or threats and have the "big bad" of the orc portion of the campaign maybe a small (to medium) army that is well equipped, trained and .....

[Sparticus]

Ok I have a game set to go here in a few days and I need help with some challenges for the party. The party is all 5th level and will include:

A brother/sister teem piloting a Gunwolf

A Russian Hammer & Sickle Cyborg (who by the way plays the Russian anthem while going into battle)

Layline Walker

A firebird (yes an anthro bird) D-Bee that's soothing akin to a buster and a Warlock with Fire element

An Ice Dragoness hatchling

Rouge Scholar

Cyber-Knight traveling as protection for Rouge Scholar

This menagerie has traveled to the broken cost, what was once the United Stat's West Cost, to help a town besieged by monsters and a rouge band of orcs hold up in an old diamond and gem mine that's getting support from an as yet unknown party. Now the monsters in the forest and elsewhere are simple enough but the real problem I am having is with the orcs. How to make them a credible threat to the party or should I replace them with another type of D-Bee or creatures. Alternatively is it just enough to have them as the thralls to a more powerful monster(s). Any suggestions or tips would be awesome.

first IMO it depends on how much of a threat you want the orcs to be.
minor threats, no significant threat, to possible party wipe threat.

at the no threat/minor threat level make them either sdc beings with piecemeal (scavenged) mdc armor and mostly sdc weapons with the occasional mdc weapon. (they are only a threat if the party goofs up and lets themselves get swarmed /overwhelmed. )

at a higher threat level make them minor mdc, similar armor (but more and better) more common or all armed with some kind of mdc weapon...

at the extreme end they are either major mdc critters, with significant mdc weapons, and lots of siege weapons, and or full body armor and .....

myself I would tend to go with a compromise.

have there be "rings of difficulty" IE random patrols/encounters are mostly on the little to no mdc level.
serious patrols or encampments are going to be progressively nastier encounters or threats and have the "big bad" of the orc portion of the campaign maybe a small (to medium) army that is well equipped, trained and .....

Rings of difficulty is something I was very much considering but I'm having trouble deciding it the support there getting is more along the line of magical assistance or tech. One thing I had in mind was that they are getting things like techno-wizedy type devices or just outright tech ether stolen or scavenged. Another thing I considered was that some may have gone under partial or full borg conversion or some may have been augmented with juicer tech

[Bill]

Consider swapping out the orcs with fire giants. The nimro are low MDC creatures which you can up armor as necessary. Their fire resistance and fire breath will give your phoenix-person and ice dragon something fun to mess with.

I think your biggest challenge is actually going to be managing the expectations of the folks playing the Rogue Scholar and the Cyberknight. They're not going to be able to wade into the fray like the rest of the group and won't have the same ability to help from outside of melee that the Line Walker does.

[Sparticus]

Consider swapping out the orcs with fire giants. The nimro are low MDC creatures which you can up armor as necessary. Their fire resistance and fire breath will give your phoenix-person and ice dragon something fun to mess with.

I think your biggest challenge is actually going to be managing the expectations of the folks playing the Rogue Scholar and the Cyberknight. They're not going to be able to wade into the fray like the rest of the group and won't have the same ability to help from outside of melee that the Line Walker does.

Yea that was a concern of mine two but they are good role-players so they will adapted and not all situations will be appropriate for the big guns and smaller but dangerous adversaries will appear.

[FatherMorpheus]

To ways I like to scale things up and down are using Splugorth Bio-Wizardy and Gene-Splicers. Basically this allows you to scale creatures through in-book modifications. Why are either of those two groups in the area... That could be a whole story line in of its self. Take your Orcs and tweak them because someone is playing god...

Another idea, demons/devils coming out of the Calgary Kingdom region. Or Hourne Raiders perhaps?

[Sureshot]

From what I can see of the party their seems to be no one who can repair battle damage. Have the orcs be well equipped imo. In great number. The players may defeat them. Then they need to find someone to repair battle damage. They may very well afford to pay for it as well. Without knowing more. It's one thing I notice in PB rpgs when people play them. That may seem like a lot of mdc/sdc. Yet eventually it needs to be healed or repaired. Some of the above suggestions are good as well.

[Mack]

Recommend hitting the party with some psionic opponents, since that isn't a party strength. Have a Neuron Beast working in the background, manipulating the Orcs.

You may also consider equipping the Orcs with some appropriate animals/monsters, such as Rhino-Buffalos.

[Sparticus]

From what I can see of the party their seems to be no one who can repair battle damage. Have the orcs be well equipped imo. In great number. The players may defeat them. Then they need to find someone to repair battle damage. They may very well afford to pay for it as well. Without knowing more. It's one thing I notice in PB rpgs when people play them. That may seem like a lot of mdc/sdc. Yet eventually it needs to be healed or repaired. Some of the above suggestions are good as well.

There is but they are NPC's controlled by me so I did not include them in the initial post, my bad. The repair/technical crew is actually a father and his two kids who travel in a mobile repair rig/house and offer their services to mercs and adventurers. Currently the father decided he likes his group for one reason or another and is traveling with them but will repair others if paid.

[Sparticus]

To ways I like to scale things up and down are using Splugorth Bio-Wizardy and Gene-Splicers. Basically this allows you to scale creatures through in-book modifications. Why are either of those two groups in the area... That could be a whole story line in of its self. Take your Orcs and tweak them because someone is playing god...

Another idea, demons/devils coming out of the Calgary Kingdom region. Or Hourne Raiders perhaps?

I like this Calgary possibility. That's the kingdom of demons right. What could demons or practitioners of the dark arts such as they offer the orcs i.e. what could they do to enhance and supply them.

[Morik]

Change the orcs to psi-goblins and have a Spirit Man-Monster calling the shots. Give the goblins some stolen bandito arms weapons and you are set to make any level of encounter.

Throw in some unknown factor like a small group of Keepers of the Desert (who are they and do they want to help the party or the goblins?), and you got a nice story to tell/play.

[Nox Equites]

An orc full conversion borg with well armed buddies can be a challenge if only for durability.

[Blue_Lion]

I would recommend making them at least part a cult of witches. See original conversion book 1 or dark conversion. Some may have granted spells some may be MD conversion.

Depending on the number of orcs it could be challenging. Perhaps giving the fact there is a gem mine involved a TW backing them so they may have a few TW defensive devices.

The other option would be the orcs have salvaged some pre rifts PA, such as 4-5 SAMAS.

Note you could also make them a challenge by having lots of orcs with light MD armor and L20 laser rifles. With 50+ ocs a head on fight by the party could end badly.

[Subjugator]

Find out what they value and go after that.

Imagine what the brother/sister team would do if they found out some Temporal Raider figured out a way to leave them otherwise intact, but...they wouldn't be related anymore. They'd know each other, but any specific memories of growing up together would be gone, their genes would be just different enough to know they were not even as close as cousins, and so on and so forth.

For the Rogue Scholar? "Never again shall you read. Understanding will be lost."

For the fire...thingy? "All the universe will be cold. Chill will seep into your bones evermore."

For the Russian borg? "Your servos will freeze. Your armor will pit. Wires will lose conductivity. Circuits will fail."

For the dragon? "For all eternity shall you take but one form, and it shall be the form you hold ten minutes from now. You will also lose the power of self expression. No matter what you try to communicate, it will be as gibberish to all who listen. Even you."

For the Ley Line Walker? "Magic will become as smoke to a net. You can sense it, smell it, see it, and even taste it, but you will never catch it. It will never be yours. The flame that powers the universe will be but an illusion to you."

The Cyber Knight? "For you, honor will be as the Questing Beast was for King Pellinore...always just beyond reach. Your attempts to save others will be futile, and you will always arrive moments too late. You will always fail at the critical moment, and those you have failed will look at you, know you have failed and will not even give you the satisfaction of anger and contempt; rather, they will pity you and understand that you could not possibly have succeeded...for you are not enough."

Those would be a good start.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

Find out what they value and go after that.

Imagine what the brother/sister team would do if they found out some Temporal Raider figured out a way to leave them otherwise intact, but...they wouldn't be related anymore. They'd know each other, but any specific memories of growing up together would be gone, their genes would be just different enough to know they were not even as close as cousins, and so on and so forth.

For the Rogue Scholar? "Never again shall you read. Understanding will be lost."

For the fire...thingy? "All the universe will be cold. Chill will seep into your bones evermore."

For the Russian borg? "Your servos will freeze. Your armor will pit. Wires will lose conductivity. Circuits will fail."

For the dragon? "For all eternity shall you take but one form, and it shall be the form you hold ten minutes from now. You will also lose the power of self expression. No matter what you try to communicate, it will be as gibberish to all who listen. Even you."

For the Ley Line Walker? "Magic will become as smoke to a net. You can sense it, smell it, see it, and even taste it, but you will never catch it. It will never be yours. The flame that powers the universe will be but an illusion to you."

The Cyber Knight? "For you, honor will be as the Questing Beast was for King Pellinore...always just beyond reach. Your attempts to save others will be futile, and you will always arrive moments too late. You will always fail at the critical moment, and those you have failed will look at you, know you have failed and will not even give you the satisfaction of anger and contempt; rather, they will pity you and understand that you could not possibly have succeeded...for you are not enough."

Those would be a good start.

/Sub

I would discourage striping away players Idea of there charter to make it challenging. That may cause players to leave the game. The players put in effort to create charters they want to play and strip it away may cause them to feel that it is no longer there charter and is beyond there control.

It may be a story idea to explore charter depth but can also lead to hurt feelings and loss of player interest. In addition if you use that as your go to how to make it challenging scenario it quickly becomes over played and feels like the GM is just messing with the players.

Example of this back firing is the back lash of spider-man fans over the reset button. Many long time spider-man fans stopped reading because of that.

Instead to build a major villain as something they have to be smart about how they to be smart about fighting.
Or potentially has the power in a strait up fight to defeat the players. A squad of grunts are not likely to pose much of a threat to a group like this but if instead it is a platoon or company of grunts they would need to work smart to defeat it.

Now then you can do a plot twist where it turns out the people that hired them are really the bad guys and stole the village from the orcs, or slaughtered another village of orcs. The ones the players go after are the good guys trying to reclaim what is stolen. This would allow for some of the charters to really shine on playing there charter. Imagine the noble cyber-knight learning he was tricked to help the forces of darkness steal a village.

[Subjugator]

I'm suggesting *threatening* it, not taking it away. The threat to it is what will prompt them to action.

/Sub

[Blue_Lion]

I'm suggesting *threatening* it, not taking it away. The threat to it is what will prompt them to action.

/Sub

Nothing in your post suggested threating it. It was a list of how to screw over there charter concepts. There are much easer ways to threating or challenging them does not involve remove charter concept.

The are already in action as the are heading to do the mission.

(If the threat to take it away is real then there is a chance it can happen. If it is not real it is just a cheep drama plot hook.)

[Subjugator]

I'm suggesting *threatening* it, not taking it away. The threat to it is what will prompt them to action.

/Sub

Nothing in your post suggested threating it.

Okay, well I clarified it in that post. I even put a smiley at the end. Is that allowable in Blue Lion's world or do I need to go pay a fine somewhere? Nothing in my original post told you to get snippy because I didn't meet your standards of posting either.

It was a list of how to screw over there charter concepts.

No. It was a list of how to threaten to screw over their character concepts, but you didn't understand that, so I clarified.

There are much easer ways to threating or challenging them does not involve remove charter concept.

The are already in action as the are heading to do the mission.

(If the threat to take it away is real then there is a chance it can happen. If it is not real it is just a cheep drama plot hook.)

A chance it can happen is a good motivator. If they behave reasonably it shouldn't happen. Hell, most GMs threaten DEATH for the characters, but you think I'm terrible for threatening concepts?

Please.

/Sub

Warning: Inflammatory language. Mack

[Killer Cyborg]

Why aren't the orcs a threat in the first place?

[Blue_Lion]

I'm suggesting *threatening* it, not taking it away. The threat to it is what will prompt them to action.

/Sub

Nothing in your post suggested threating it.

Okay, well I clarified it in that post. I even put a smiley at the end. Is that allowable in Blue Lion's world or do I need to go pay a fine somewhere? Nothing in my original post told you to get snippy because I didn't meet your standards of posting either.

It was a list of how to screw over there charter concepts.

No. It was a list of how to threaten to screw over their character concepts, but you didn't understand that, so I clarified.

There are much easer ways to threating or challenging them does not involve remove charter concept.

The are already in action as the are heading to do the mission.

(If the threat to take it away is real then there is a chance it can happen. If it is not real it is just a cheep drama plot hook.)

A chance it can happen is a good motivator. If they behave reasonably it shouldn't happen. Hell, most GMs threaten DEATH for the characters, but you think I'm terrible for threatening concepts?

Please.

/Sub

First off it is not my world. The problem I have is he asked for help on how to challenge them and your post came across as remake there charters as you want. Such a short sighted approach can ruin games for players. It was also out side of what he was asking for he was asking for ideas on making his planed encounter with orcs challenging for the group. Instead you posted a list of ideas to ruin the players charter concepts. That is not something I see as making a group challenging but instead ruining ruining the game. I am sorry if you think a GM should do to make a game challenging but I know as a player I would have a problem with a GM coming a crossed as trying to remake the party or strip away what they are suppose to do.

Taking charters back story of being siblings and negating (evening threating to do that) it is not a challenge but a being a jerk. Same with saying the mage can no longer use magic or be a mage, or that a rouge scholar will never be a scholar or that the Cyberknight will be doomed to failure. Those are all things that can force short term charter RP but are likely to ruin the game for the players, and are not what should be seen as a group challenge. Some players may not mind the chance to RP something that but is also likely to cause hurt feelings if people are attached to the charter they spent time to create.

At best what you listed where individual RP challenges not a group challenge. I was trying to point out they can ruin the game for people I am sorry if you think that is being snippy.

[Subjugator]

First off it is not my world. The problem I have is he asked for help on how to challenge them and your post came across as remake there charters as you want.

You may have seen it that way, but that's not what I said. I suggested threats to the characters because I thought he was looking for a challenge that would motivate them.

Such a short sighted approach can ruin games for players.

It's not a short sighted approach. It's just one you don't like.

It was also out side of what he was asking for he was asking for ideas on making his planed encounter with orcs challenging for the group.

Yup. I didn't see that - I was in a hurry and skimmed the thread.

Instead you posted a list of ideas to ruin the players charter concepts.

No I didn't. I posted a list of threats that would motivate the characters to go after the villain that was threatening them.

That is not something I see as making a group challenging but instead ruining ruining the game.

I see it as something that the will trigger decisive action and focused force on the part of the characters.

The Batman was motivated by the murder of his parents. Spiderman was motivated by the murder of Uncle Ben. In the movie, The Avengers were motivated by a threat to the entire planet. In the Infinity Gauntlet comics, they were motivated by a threat to the universe.

My suggestion was not to flip a switch and do those things to the characters, but to present it as a threat to the characters. I'd call that a challenge, much like 'throwing down the gauntlet' was a threat in the middle ages...a way of saying, 'Take up my gage, sir knight, for I cast my defiance into thy teeth!'

I am sorry if you think a GM should do to make a game challenging but I know as a player I would have a problem with a GM coming a crossed as trying to remake the party or strip away what they are suppose to do.

I am sorry if you think a GM should not motivate a character by threatening the things they love. It's a time honored tradition in fiction, and has been used countless times by authors far better than I. In addition to the items I mentioned earlier, a fine example of this is Victor Hugo in Les Misérables, motivating Jean Valjean with the threat of the loss of all he valued through Cosette's ignorance of the situation and her youthful irresponsibility making them more publicly visible and Javert's pursuit of them. Spiderman lost Gwen Stacy. Stephen King does it in The Gunslinger...

[spoiler="Don't read this if you haven't read the books but plan to..."]...and he follows through with it if you read past the 'end' of the last book, hosing Roland something fierce![/spoiler]

So you disagree. Okay, well that's up to you, I suppose...but this is neither unprecedented nor surprising, particularly if the characters are supposed to be larger than life. I tend to view roleplaying characters as ones that will have major threats, and while a hero might be willing to give their life for a cause without pause, they may well pause in fear at the thought of losing something so elemental as their past or their honor.

Taking charters back story of being siblings and negating (evening threating to do that) it is not a challenge...

EDIT: ...snipped some name calling...

Same with saying the mage can no longer use magic or be a mage, or that a rouge scholar will never be a scholar or that the Cyberknight will be doomed to failure. Those are all things that can force short term charter RP but are likely to ruin the game for the players, and are not what should be seen as a group challenge. Some players may not mind the chance to RP something that but is also likely to cause hurt feelings if people are attached to the charter they spent time to create.

Major authors would disagree with you on these not being valid threats. Writings from The Bible, to Arthurian legend, to Spiderman have included such threats against major characters therein. In some cases, they've actually followed through on them.

There are a number of stories in the Bible where a loss of all that was held dear is seen. The ejection from Eden, Lot's loss of his wife and his later improper relations with his daughters (though I don't buy the excuse - 'I was drunk' doesn't cut it), and the phenomenal example of Job all come to mind.

The threat leading to a retcon of one's entire history (and a HUGE loss associated with it) was illustrated in the Spider-Man: One More Day story arc, and I think it was a pretty intense storyline.

Threatening the Cyberknight losing honor isn't a valid threat to challenge the character? Ever hear of Lancelot du Lac? He actually _lost_ his honor through his improper relations with his best friend's wife.

The rogue scholar not being able to read again? Captain Kirk lost his reasoning side with the loss of Spock in what many view as the best of the Star Trek movies.

Star Trek again offers an instructive example in the way Spock reflected Kirk's intellect and McCoy embodied Kirk's emotions. Watching McCoy and Spock argue was like seeing Kirk's internal dialogue externalized. This dynamic made both Spock and McCoy vital to Kirk's success as a captain and integral to his wholeness as a person.

...so when Spock died, Kirk lost his rational self.

An even more direct and obvious example of this is (Robert) Bruce Banner...The Hulk. He hates and fears his loss of intellect as The Hulk...but he has to face that threat and grows through so doing.

At best what you listed where individual RP challenges not a group challenge. I was trying to point out they can ruin the game for people I am sorry if you think that is being snippy.

At best what I listed is a series of threats issued to the characters that can motivate them to greatness...and yes, they were role playing challenges. It's a role playing game, after all. It is very common in literature that heroes aren't motivated by money, but by great need and/or great threat.

I'm sorry if you think it's wrong, but as I've said, many major authors would disagree with you. As I've said, my goal was to illustrate that great threats can lead to great character growth and get them to examine what they really value as a character. Given that villains in Rifts can engage in human sacrifice, eat the PCs, slaughter a village, steal souls, and so on, I'd think that threatening the loss of one's honor, the ability to think rationally, use magic, or one's family is comparatively minor by comparison.

As I see it, the real difference is that compared to some (but not all) of those things, these items are personal to the character, and may thereby motivate them more directly.

/Sub

[Bill]

Why aren't the orcs a threat in the first place?

Basic SDC thugs versus superhumans and a rogue scholar. Easily fixed with equipment and tactics. Which has been suggested above, before the debate on appropriate storytelling and how to motivate players began. Which probably ought to be a thread unto itself.

[Mack]

Subjugator / Blue Lion,

Just drop it.

[Subjugator]

Back on topic, and I apologize:

Orcs could be a threat against superhumans. MD weapons (particularly AOE weapons that cause damage to everyone), theft, hit & run tactics, avalanches, spells, traps, vandalism, and so on are wonderful in making them more challenging!

Example 1: The orcs steal the secondary arms of two party members. Well, that was really frickin' expensive! They didn't lose their primary weapons, so they're not crippled, but those pistols cost many thousands of credits!

Example 2: An orc sneaks up on the party when they're asleep, tosses out a couple of grenades that are on a 5 minute timer (and have been made invisible in some way), and gets out of dodge before the grenades go off. *boom* How much does repairing that damage cost? Were the players sleeping in armor? If not, were they injured? How much will the repairs cost? How bad are the injuries? The assailant is nowhere to be found, but DAMN that cost almost 25K in credits and we didn't get anything for it!

Example 3: The players are going through a canyon and the orcs open fire from the canyon walls. The players are hit 10 or 15 times and the orcs high tail it. Again, the expense is going to be rough, and that's *if* they can get repairs before the next hit.

Example 4: The players are going through another canyon, but this time they're on the lookout for anyone above them and there is nobody to be seen! The orcs are sitting nice and comfy about 5 miles away with a clairvoyant who can see where the players are. The PCs get to the right spot and the orc demolitions expert hits a button. *BOOM*, the rocks fall and the players aren't dead, but they're _stuck_, have more repairs to do, and might have to dig one or more of the party members out of the avalanche.

Example 5: Spells...ugh. I don't care how fast a juicer is, if he's levitated 20' off the ground he's not going to be doing all that much (unless someone who can fly gets him and moves him around). Carpet of Adhesion, Magic Net, and lots of other incredibly useful spells also come to mind.

Example 6: Vandalism...doesn't sound like much...until you have to spend two days digging epoxy resin out of your gun barrel or away from the buttons that let you enter your power armor or APC. How much fun is it to take your Big Boss ATV into town with some magic spray paint on it that says, "WE ARE ALL COWARDS, COME TAKE OUR STUFF!" (it's magic so it can't be easily removed)

Lots of stuff can make that more of a challenge.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Why aren't the orcs a threat in the first place?

Basic SDC thugs versus superhumans and a rogue scholar. Easily fixed with equipment and tactics.

Right.
And since no mention was made of equipment, we don't actually know what equipment the orcs have.
Likewise, there was no mention of numbers.

Hence my question.
A clear answer from the original poster to the effect of "I've only armed the orcs with AK-47s and toothbrush-shivs" would paint one picture, "The orcs came in from the PFRPG world, and don't have any modern weapon proficiencies" would paint another picture, and "the orcs are comparable to the average high-tech bandits of Rifts Earth, but their numbers are too small to be a threat to a party this powerful" would paint yet another picture.

[ShadowLogan]

Ok I have a game set to go here in a few days and I need help with some challenges for the party. The party is all 5th level and will include:

A brother/sister teem piloting a Gunwolf

A Russian Hammer & Sickle Cyborg (who by the way plays the Russian anthem while going into battle)

Layline Walker

A firebird (yes an anthro bird) D-Bee that's soothing akin to a buster and a Warlock with Fire element

An Ice Dragoness hatchling

Rouge Scholar

Cyber-Knight traveling as protection for Rouge Scholar

This menagerie has traveled to the broken cost, what was once the United Stat's West Cost, to help a town besieged by monsters and a rouge band of orcs hold up in an old diamond and gem mine that's getting support from an as yet unknown party. Now the monsters in the forest and elsewhere are simple enough but the real problem I am having is with the orcs. How to make them a credible threat to the party or should I replace them with another type of D-Bee or creatures. Alternatively is it just enough to have them as the thralls to a more powerful monster(s). Any suggestions or tips would be awesome.

To give them challenges: find and exploit their weaknesses:
-the 'bot team and cybrog are going to be vulnerable to repairs.
-the dragon and ley line walker can be stopped by Psi-Nullifiers (and/ort Nega-Psychics can't keep them straight).
-not familiar with the firebird, so I'm not sure what their weaknesses might be
- you'll have to look at their skills and abilities to provide them challenges (either a lack there of or because of them)
-combat, if the enemy attacks w/sufficient numbers, even with low powered attacks, the damage will add up
-'bots and cybrogs due to their mass/weight can't traverse all terrains (if its to soft they will sink)
-they might have to go into areas that are confining or two small for the 'bot itself and the Cyborg, the dragon can always metamorph, but can only do so for a limited time

Orcs can per CB1 take OCCs from Rifts. They aren't many magic or psychic class available to them though, so they will need some support from other races in that regard. Given they are holed up in a mine, I'd say they are allied with goblins, though whether it is as allies or just another pawn is of course up to you.

[Bill]

Heh, I can't believe nobody has mentioned using captive humans has shields yet. That would shift the entire tone of an encounter and potentially open up ground for the Scholar and the Cyberknight to do some negotiation. I wouldn't open with it, but as the PCs start to make some progress it could come up.

[Subjugator]

Heh, I can't believe nobody has mentioned using captive humans has shields yet. That would shift the entire tone of an encounter and potentially open up ground for the Scholar and the Cyberknight to do some negotiation. I wouldn't open with it, but as the PCs start to make some progress it could come up.

Operation Human Shield *can* be rather effective.

/Sub

[Killer Cyborg]

Heh, I can't believe nobody has mentioned using captive humans has shields yet. That would shift the entire tone of an encounter and potentially open up ground for the Scholar and the Cyberknight to do some negotiation. I wouldn't open with it, but as the PCs start to make some progress it could come up.

Operation Human Shield *can* be rather effective.

/Sub

Yup.
Inhuman shields can be good too.
Might be fun watching a party decide if the orcs own babies' lives are worth dropping their guns for.

[Blue_Lion]

Heh, I can't believe nobody has mentioned using captive humans has shields yet. That would shift the entire tone of an encounter and potentially open up ground for the Scholar and the Cyberknight to do some negotiation. I wouldn't open with it, but as the PCs start to make some progress it could come up.

Operation Human Shield *can* be rather effective.

/Sub

Yup.
Inhuman shields can be good too.
Might be fun watching a party decide if the orcs own babies' lives are worth dropping their guns for.

Well according to the laws of warfare if the enemy uses human shields they are still a valid target. Like wise of a protected building such as a hospital or church is used to attack from it looses it protected status.
Otherwise all the bad guys would strap an orphan to their chest.

[Bill]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

[Blue_Lion]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

Odds are they will just used the called shot rules. There may be some reaction but I would not count on any big soul searching.

[Killer Cyborg]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

Odds are they will just used the called shot rules. There may be some reaction but I would not count on any big soul searching.

Depends on the party, of course.
But you'd have to one-shot the bad guys if you want the hostages to live, in most cases.

[Blue_Lion]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

Odds are they will just used the called shot rules. There may be some reaction but I would not count on any big soul searching.

Depends on the party, of course.
But you'd have to one-shot the bad guys if you want the hostages to live, in most cases.

The bad guys in question are orcs so the called shot could be to disarm target the hands or weapons.

(Maybe I have played with other military people to much and are use to how they react.)

Is the goal to challenge the RP of the players or to provide them with a combat challenge?

[Killer Cyborg]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

Odds are they will just used the called shot rules. There may be some reaction but I would not count on any big soul searching.

Depends on the party, of course.
But you'd have to one-shot the bad guys if you want the hostages to live, in most cases.

The bad guys in question are orcs so the called shot could be to disarm target the hands or weapons.

And you'd still need to do it in one shot.

Although, if I was somebody holding a weapon to a hostage, and I noticed that the people that I was asking to surrender were instead aiming their weapons at me for the next 4-9 seconds, the hostage might be dead before they could fire anyway.

Most importantly, why on Earth are you trying to guess out how an almost completely unspecified scenario would play out?
The hostages could be in another building, or otherwise out of sight. Or the "weapon" being held could be a deadman's switch for a bomb. Or the hostages could be dangling off the edge of a cliff.
All I'm presenting is an idea that a GM could use in some fashion.

Trying to assume any details beyond "the orcs have hostages" is absurd and pointless, a waste of everybody's time.

[Blue_Lion]

Still worth testing the PCs alignment over in my opinion.

Odds are they will just used the called shot rules. There may be some reaction but I would not count on any big soul searching.

Depends on the party, of course.
But you'd have to one-shot the bad guys if you want the hostages to live, in most cases.

The bad guys in question are orcs so the called shot could be to disarm target the hands or weapons.

And you'd still need to do it in one shot.

Although, if I was somebody holding a weapon to a hostage, and I noticed that the people that I was asking to surrender were instead aiming their weapons at me for the next 4-9 seconds, the hostage might be dead before they could fire anyway.

Most importantly, why on Earth are you trying to guess out how an almost completely unspecified scenario would play out?
The hostages could be in another building, or otherwise out of sight. Or the "weapon" being held could be a deadman's switch for a bomb. Or the hostages could be dangling off the edge of a cliff.
All I'm presenting is an idea that a GM could use in some fashion.

Trying to assume any details beyond "the orcs have hostages" is absurd and pointless, a waste of everybody's time.

When I hear the term human shield it brings to mind the bad guys hiding behind a person using them to block attacks. I do not think of hostages held else where as a human shield.
Have you seen a show down where some one was face to face with a hostage situation and they did not point weapons at the person with the hostage for longer than 15 seconds before action was taken? I know I have not.

(Odds are unless you using the GI Joe rule, the group listed has the fire power to destroy hands on body armor if not the weapon.)

People do not normally walk around with dead man trigger weapons on hostages that is would only happen in a preplanned hostage scenario, likely part of a bigger plan.

But such a show down are more RP chance "credible threat"(what the original poster was asking for), if the group is used to making tactical choices they will often decide while wasting little time. (Again I played allot with other military people and they usually decide to take action right away.)

[Killer Cyborg]

So... Still wasting time trying to second-guess a scenario with virtually no details.
You have fun with that.

[Blue_Lion]

So... Still wasting time trying to second-guess a scenario with virtually no details.
You have fun with that.

You still have not explained how this is a creditable threat and not just some low quality attempt to draw RP out of players that may not work as intended.

I was merely saying I do not see it with many groups being a productive path or fitting in the original posters intent of a "creditable threat".

[Killer Cyborg]

So... Still wasting time trying to second-guess a scenario with virtually no details.
You have fun with that.

You still have not explained how this is a creditable threat and not just some low quality attempt to draw RP out of players that may not work as intended.

I was merely saying I do not see it with many groups being a productive path or fitting in the original posters intent of a "creditable threat".

I guess you missed the part where I don't care what you think, or what you want to know.
I'm not answerable to you, and I'm not obliged to indulge you in any way.
This isn't your thread.
Quit trying to hijack it.
If the OP has any questions about anybody's comments, let them ask.
None of this is about you.

[Blue_Lion]

So... Still wasting time trying to second-guess a scenario with virtually no details.
You have fun with that.

You still have not explained how this is a creditable threat and not just some low quality attempt to draw RP out of players that may not work as intended.

I was merely saying I do not see it with many groups being a productive path or fitting in the original posters intent of a "creditable threat".

I guess you missed the part where I don't care what you think, or what you want to know.
I'm not answerable to you, and I'm not obliged to indulge you in any way.
This isn't your thread.
Quit trying to hijack it.
If the OP has any questions about anybody's comments, let them ask.
None of this is about you.

And I am not answerable to you.
I am just replying to topics, and post I am not trying to hijack it I am saying the idea may not be that good of a way to challenge the group.

[Killer Cyborg]

That all depends on implementation, which would be up to the GM.
Since the GM isn't either one of us, further discussion of hypotheticals and assumptions in this case is pointless.

And no, you're not answerable to me.
Which is why I'm not pointlessly grilling you I've my imagined scenarios of what your suggestions might look like in my own mind.

[Blue_Lion]

Look at what he asked for to begin with.
"the real problem I am having is with the orcs. How to make them a credible threat to the party or should I replace them with another type of D-Bee or creatures."

Credible threat to the party.... That implies he is looking for ways to challenge the parties combat abilities with orcs.

He states the orcs are held up in an old diamond mine that could mean that the party will have to deal with the terrain. Things like not be able to use the Robot, that would put a huge dent in the parties fire power and MDC. In a mine the use of AOE weapons poses a risk of cave in so they would need to be careful of use of mini missiles and grenades. Caves have limited air flow so that might prevent the use of fire based powers, also diamonds are normally found in coal so coal dust could cause an explosion or part of coal could start to burn filling the mine with smoke(how long can the dragon hold its breath). The orcs are likely to know the mine and have built traps and barriers in places. Lighting may be poor so they may have trouble with ambushes. Depending on how wide the mine is the party might not be forced to travel threw parts in single file.

Numbers would be another draw back the orcs are likely to out number the party so rushing in could lead to a swarm or ambush. Gear could also factor in if the orcs have only melee weapons a fighting retreat could reduce the numbers how ever large number of ranged weapons such as the common L-20 laser rifle could make a fairly nasty fight for the party. If the orcs have mages/witches in there numbers that could present a challenge for the party.

If orcs have multiple supply routes methods so they can not be bottled in and starved out that could present a problem for the party as well as a option.

The backer would pose another issue IE what does he bring to the fight. IF it TW style charter the diamonds could be used for creating devices to hinder the orcs. If it is a greater demon, or AI that is arraigning things dealing with him would be an issue.

Looking at things like that on combat alone this mission could be beyond the groups ability to deal with. The three most obvious ways to make it a creditable threat is terrain, manpower/numbers(or orc power if you prefer) and the backer. These three alone could easily pose a greater threat to the group.

[eliakon]

How about some ways to look at 'credible threat'
The simplest way is of course to simply just boost their raw combat power, either by giving them better gear, or making some of them Crazies (they can be MoMs, they just don't get the psionics), or Juicers, or JAPE, or cybernetics, witches, ect
Some slightly more complex ways to make a threat 'credible' is to make the fights more challenging in other ways. Terrain, Hostages (either people or items or places), timers, wearing down the party, traps ect.
Then there are even more complex ways...for this you may end up moving away from the fight as the main issue and into some secondary issue as the main one. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting the fight to be the point of something.
Arguing what is the 'best way' to do any of this is like arguing what is the best flavor of ice cream. The answer of course is 'The one you like".

[Secondhand Smoke]

I would say the orcs are working with psi goblins. They are numerous but spread out. All are equipped with some manner of mdc weaponry, but not a lot of MDC armour/not all are wearing MDC armour.

A large contingent of orcs are outside the mines and are to be easily beaten by the party. About a third with greater tech and armour should retreat into the mine and be seen running in.

The mine offers immediate protection against some of your parties "normal" tactics I'd imagine (small cramped conditions, dark, no flight possible) and stresses important teamwork and smart combat strategies. I'm envisioning a lot of fighting behind cover, smart usage of shadow melding and blinding flash, Cyber knight to "silently" kill as many sentries as possible etc etc.

The psi-goblins should make an appearance from this point onwards and be found fighting alongside the orcs. They are tough buggers!

I'd have the orcs and psi-goblins being lead by two ogres.
Two escaped tattoed ogres to be exact. One a monster man, the other a Maxi Man.

What do you think?

[Secondhand Smoke]

Or just replace orcs with Psi Goblins all together.
Reasonably equipped Psi-Goblins, fitted in mdc body armours and with a few heavy energy weapons amongst them. In a small, cramped, dark and hellish mine....

Two tattoed Ogres inside as the "boss encounter"....

Sounds fun and damn challenging if I say so myself!
You could easily make it so that the ogres were receiving orders from someone higher than them. So it becomes an investigation for your players as well.

I'd like to play this

[Blue_Lion]

Even without changing the orcs to psi-goblins it is very challenging do to the location and possible numbers. The diamond mine is likely to disable the primary ability of 3 party members, by being to small for the Gun wolf and risk of use of fire in a mine with coal(do to limited air flow and possible setting the coal on fire or explosion if something kicks up a lot of coal dust). Weapon choices for the PC can be limited by the mine as well, AOE can destroy can support beams causing cave ins and laser or plasma based weapons could ignite the coal in the walls. So this mission plays into the strength of the Cyber knight and dragon for close combat. The cyborg and mage can also prove key assets for the fight.

[Secondhand Smoke]

Firstly it's an OLD diamond mine. The likely hood of their being any explosive gases left are pretty low.

Secondly it's an old DIAMOND mine. Please stop mentioning coal.

[Blue_Lion]

hmm.. I always thought diamonds where found coal deposits. Never bothered looking it up, but it appears that it may be an popular myth.

So without the risk of coal weapons may open up. But large scale use of fire powers would still eat up available Oxygen in and enclosed space such as mine.

If mine is still active or the weapons blast into a underground gas deposit there is still a risk of explosive gas.

[Library Ogre]

As others mentioned, throwing in cyborgs, MDC armor and weapons (missile launchers, even shoulder-fired one-shots, should make ANY party be a bit more cautious), and witches are good options. I would avoid bio-wizardry, personally, because that creates an explicit link to the Splugorth, which might not be what you're looking for.

Assuming 100 orcs, I'd go with a breakdown like this
1 Gift of Union witch. Big powerhouse, more or less a minor deity.
5-10 Gift of Power Witches. This lets you throw in some weirdness; I'd dip into superpowers, and maybe give them some sort of theme (flame and shadow, for example)
5-10 Gift of Magic witches. Scatter these through the squads to give some "combined arms" capability.
10-20 heavy troops. Partial borgs are good for this. Missile Launchers, heavy particle beams, maybe the occasional one with a Naruni plasma cartridge weapon. They should have 200+ MDC when fully armored.
10-20 specialty troops. Equivalent of Crazies and Juicers.
The balance should be regular orc troopers, with MDC armor and weapons... enough to provide harassing fire to the big guys, scout out the party a bit, and get dramatically eaten by a dragon.

This gives you a good mix of troops to work with, lets you throw in some weird stuff, and lets your tech-based people have some eclip reloads and spare armor to work with. A slightly easier route to take would be to make the orcs Brodkil, instead, or substitute brodkil for some of the specialty troops; brodkil are already tough, they're pretty ubiquitous, and I think they'd slip pretty seamlessly into orcish culture.