Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

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Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

A mage has a finite amount of P.P.E. to play with, referred to as their "base." To cast a non-ritual spell the mage simply spends the appropriate amount of time and temporarily expends the P.P.E. from their base in order to realize the spell effect. In those cases, the rules are simple and easily (in my opinioin) understood.

Mages can get P.P.E. from other sources, however, and this is currently my source of contention. I had come to a conclusion some time ago that in order to use P.P.E. from an external source, the mage had to first use an action to pull the P.P.E. out of that source and into their own P.P.E. pool - a rule much more manageable to deal with when using the Rifts Book of Magic rules on page 21:
• A mage can hold up to 3× base P.P.E. for P.E. in minutes.

However, I can find no canon that backs this interpretation up with non-ritual spells. The closest thing I can find is sort of a backwards proof in the magic sections that describe rituals - for those spells, other sources can just be included in the ritual and used without having to first drain them. They're drained once the spell is cast. I say this is a "backwards" proof because I can interpret the inclusion of this rule in rituals to mean that it's exclusion in non-ritual spellcasting is significant. Which may or may not be true, depending on interpretation.

One notable thing this interpretation does is gives rituals a reason to be cast. If a mage can just use an external source to cast a spell he doesn't have the base P.P.E. for, then why would they elect to use a ritual? This was a problem to me, and my interpretation here solves it by making it impossible for a mage to cast any non-ritual spell whose P.P.E. cost is greater than 3× their P.P.E. base (or their P.P.E. base plus 3× their P.P.E. base, depending on how the Book of Magic rules are interpreted).

So for some examples...

  • A mage wants to use a P.P.E. talisman to cast a spell. The mage spends an action taking the P.P.E. he wishes to use out of the talisman, and "holding" it as per the Book of Magic rules. Then his next actions(s) would be to cast the spell and fuel it with the P.P.E. he's holding.
  • Two mages desire to have a spell cast. Neither of them have enough P.P.E, but together their combined P.P.E. is more than enough. The first mage allows the second mage to use an action to draw P.P.E. from him (up to 70% of the first mage's base amount), "holding" it as per the Book of Magic rules. The second mage then uses her next actions(s) to cast the spell and fuel it with the P.P.E. from her base, plus the P.P.E. she's holding.
  • At a ley line a mage decides to use the energy from the line to fuel her next spell. She can only get so much P.P.E. per melee action, so she spends a number of actions absorbing that P.P.E., slowly building up the P.P.E. needed and "holding" it as per the Book of Magic rules. Once she has enough to cast the spell, she then spends her next actions(s) to cast the spell and fuel it with the P.P.E. she's been holding.
    • Even if the energy was available after only one action of absorbing, the mage would've had to spend an action to absorb that energy, then begin casting the spell on the next action.

In none of these cases, however, do the rules actually require an action to be spent to acquire and "hold" the P.P.E. before the mage casts it. Have I made an error in my interpretation, and the mage should just be able to cast spells from the P.P.E. around him/her? If that's the case, is there a reason (canonically) to limit those spells' P.P.E. cost to less than the "Book of Magic 3× base" (or 3×base + base) holding P.P.E. rule?
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Bill »

I think you've provided adequate evidence that no action is required to draw PPE from a source. I think of it like breathing. It's an automatic function of being able to use magic. Canonically, the only limit I can think of is the amount of PPE actually available; 10 per melee from a ley line, however much willing and unwilling people around him have available to draw upon, any talismans that he may have on his person, etc.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

So you would allow a mage with 10 P.P.E. talismen to use them all at once in casting a spell, as part of the spells normal actions to be cast? What about drawing P.P.E. from people and using talismen - all at once at the same time? If it doesn't cost an action, what's the limit? What am I missing?

Is the maximum amount of P.P.E that can be used still limited by the text in the Book of Magic? Or with enough people and talismen can a mage with only 100 base P.P.E. cast the spell Dimensional Portal in only 3 actions (using RUE casting speeds)? What is the benefit of a Ritual then, other than a G.M. screwing over a player by only giving them a ritual version?
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Bill »

Limiting the availability of a spell is not screwing a player over. It is enforcing the setting assumptions. I can't think of any game where players are completely free to do as they wish without taking into account setting limitations.

For example, Talisman is a level 13 spell. Per RUE your spellcaster should have a 10% or less opportunity to buy that spell from a teacher and it should cost up to a million credits. It also requires 500 PPE to cast. So how often is a spellcaster going to be walking around with ten of them? Where's he or she buying these things from and how much is the arch mage that makes them selling them for?
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

Glistam wrote:So you would allow a mage with 10 P.P.E. talismen to use them all at once in casting a spell, as part of the spells normal actions to be cast? What about drawing P.P.E. from people and using talismen - all at once at the same time? If it doesn't cost an action, what's the limit? What am I missing?

Is the maximum amount of P.P.E that can be used still limited by the text in the Book of Magic? Or with enough people and talismen can a mage with only 100 base P.P.E. cast the spell Dimensional Portal in only 3 actions (using RUE casting speeds)? What is the benefit of a Ritual then, other than a G.M. screwing over a player by only giving them a ritual version?


Perhaps look at breaking it down slightly differently, consider the source on whether or not drawing the PPE takes an action.

Doesn't take an Action (PPE passes through item to mage for casting or storage):
1. Item designed to carry PPE for use in casting. (Talisman, TW PPE Jewelry, or other magical item designed for this purpose).
2. Spells which are designed to store additional PPE for mage to use (Example: Energy Sphere)

Does take an Action to acquire PPE:
1. Another Living Being (voluntary magical creature, mage, etc.)
2. Familiar
3. Ley Line or Ley Line Nexus
4. Blood sacrifice
5. Other things which are not designed as pure storage vessels.

Then you have the storage item, how much can a mage store over his normal base? BoM p21 says 3x their normal limit (I read this as base) for the mage's P.E. number in minutes before it dissipates. In games I've played I've used slightly different rules, but for the most part this is fairly clear.

Taking these all together, a mage with enough Talismans or PPE Batteries wouldn't need anyone else to cast large spells, or rituals. If they don't have access to those things, then they may have to use ritual magic at a Ley Line or with a large number of blood sacrifices to slowly cast a large spell.

Bill wrote:Limiting the availability of a spell is not screwing a player over. It is enforcing the setting assumptions. I can't think of any game where players are completely free to do as they wish without taking into account setting limitations.

For example, Talisman is a level 13 spell. Per RUE your spellcaster should have a 10% or less opportunity to buy that spell from a teacher and it should cost up to a million credits. It also requires 500 PPE to cast. So how often is a spellcaster going to be walking around with ten of them? Where's he or she buying these things from and how much is the arch mage that makes them selling them for?


I agree with Bill here, it really depends on the way the GM has setup his game world. If you are running lower power games, Talisman may just be out of reach. Moderate or high power level, then eventually it may be possible but it is far from guaranteed.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by eliakon »

Personally, I have ruled (based on a rule I imported from another game) that any one mage can only use one talisman or other such 'battery device'. It has worked out pretty well for my own games as a compromise between allowing talisman to be useful and not being over powering.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

eliakon wrote:Personally, I have ruled (based on a rule I imported from another game) that any one mage can only use one talisman or other such 'battery device'. It has worked out pretty well for my own games as a compromise between allowing talisman to be useful and not being over powering.


Is that only draw PPE from any single Talisman or battery device per spell? Or they can only ever carry one such device on them at any point?

And is this for a fairly low powered game? Or can players find (or create) larger battery devices than normally published?
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I tend to rule that you can only use one external source of PPE per invocation, and can only use the source if it is prepared as a PPE battery or a natural source... you can simply draw PPE from a line or use a Talisman, but you usually can't just use a dying person to cast a spell invocation; you have to capture the PPE, then use it to power the spell as a separate action.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by eliakon »

FatherMorpheus wrote:
eliakon wrote:Personally, I have ruled (based on a rule I imported from another game) that any one mage can only use one talisman or other such 'battery device'. It has worked out pretty well for my own games as a compromise between allowing talisman to be useful and not being over powering.


Is that only draw PPE from any single Talisman or battery device per spell? Or they can only ever carry one such device on them at any point?

And is this for a fairly low powered game? Or can players find (or create) larger battery devices than normally published?

You an carry as many batteries (talismans, energy spheres, Vajra, what ever) as you want. But you can only use 1 per person per spell.
I also allow a mage to tap into a ley line, and draw from one source of 'people power' (either drawing from one person, or any number of willing people). I have some special rules I use for sacrifices as well. The result I tend to find is that players have a bit of spare energy with out being able to just wander around with world cracking amounts of PPE in their pocket
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

I am encouraged by these responses, because it seems there is no actual canon and everyone house-rules their own guidelines. Thank you, I feel a lot more comfortable with my own house rules/interpretations now.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Tor »

In some cases we just have hints at canon based on what classes supposedly have the capacity to do.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

eliakon wrote:
FatherMorpheus wrote:
eliakon wrote:Personally, I have ruled (based on a rule I imported from another game) that any one mage can only use one talisman or other such 'battery device'. It has worked out pretty well for my own games as a compromise between allowing talisman to be useful and not being over powering.


Is that only draw PPE from any single Talisman or battery device per spell? Or they can only ever carry one such device on them at any point?

And is this for a fairly low powered game? Or can players find (or create) larger battery devices than normally published?

You an carry as many batteries (talismans, energy spheres, Vajra, what ever) as you want. But you can only use 1 per person per spell.
I also allow a mage to tap into a ley line, and draw from one source of 'people power' (either drawing from one person, or any number of willing people). I have some special rules I use for sacrifices as well. The result I tend to find is that players have a bit of spare energy with out being able to just wander around with world cracking amounts of PPE in their pocket

I like this as a limit also, and it gives rituals an additional incentive as they allow multiple sources of P.P.E..
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

Bill wrote:Limiting the availability of a spell is not screwing a player over. It is enforcing the setting assumptions. I can't think of any game where players are completely free to do as they wish without taking into account setting limitations.

For example, Talisman is a level 13 spell. Per RUE your spellcaster should have a 10% or less opportunity to buy that spell from a teacher and it should cost up to a million credits. It also requires 500 PPE to cast. So how often is a spellcaster going to be walking around with ten of them? Where's he or she buying these things from and how much is the arch mage that makes them selling them for?

How often will a Mage be walking around with ten of them? Really often in my game because I did the following calculation and realized mass production of talismans was incredibly feasible on ley lines in places like Tolkeen. Non LLW recovers 10 PPE per melee round x 4 rounds per minute x 60 minutes per hour = 2400 PPE available per hour. That's 2400 / 500 = 4.8 talismans per hour. Get a LLW and the rate doubles. So how much is an hour of a mages time worth? 500 credits x 2000 man-hours per year = 1,000,000 credits salary per year. Seems pretty good to me. So in round numbers 500 credits per hour / 4.8 talismans per hour = 100 credits per talisman. At that price lots of mages have mutiple PPE talismans.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by FatherMorpheus »

Mlp7029 wrote:
Bill wrote:Limiting the availability of a spell is not screwing a player over. It is enforcing the setting assumptions. I can't think of any game where players are completely free to do as they wish without taking into account setting limitations.

For example, Talisman is a level 13 spell. Per RUE your spellcaster should have a 10% or less opportunity to buy that spell from a teacher and it should cost up to a million credits. It also requires 500 PPE to cast. So how often is a spellcaster going to be walking around with ten of them? Where's he or she buying these things from and how much is the arch mage that makes them selling them for?

How often will a Mage be walking around with ten of them? Really often in my game because I did the following calculation and realized mass production of talismans was incredibly feasible on ley lines in places like Tolkeen. Non LLW recovers 10 PPE per melee round x 4 rounds per minute x 60 minutes per hour = 2400 PPE available per hour. That's 2400 / 500 = 4.8 talismans per hour. Get a LLW and the rate doubles. So how much is an hour of a mages time worth? 500 credits x 2000 man-hours per year = 1,000,000 credits salary per year. Seems pretty good to me. So in round numbers 500 credits per hour / 4.8 talismans per hour = 100 credits per talisman. At that price lots of mages have mutiple PPE talismans.


Thought with laws of supply/demand, the price would drop out of the market after a few people started making this quantity. They would drop down to a much lower price point within 6 months, if not sooner. Furthermore, I've always interrupted that the more you mess with a ley line the more likely you will end up with some sort of backlash. Not necessarily a canon concept, but not out of the realm of possibility.

Baring these two concepts, I understand your point. In the world of Rifts, PPE Batteries could be much more common that people think. As common as a standard E-Clip, perhaps not, but at least half as common. I think that is why the TW PPE Clips are priced at about 50K.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

From RUE pg 186; Drawing P.P.E. from other living beings.

1. Freely Given P.P.E. The P.P.E. is offered with the character'sknowledge and consent, enabling the mage to absorb 70% of the P.P.E. offered by each person within a 20 foot (6.1 m) radius. The donated P.P.E. may be used all at once, or parceled out to a number of different spells. There is no limit to the number of people who can join in an offer of their energy and if they are all focused via a ritual, the mage can draw on them all instead of those within only a 20 foot (6.1 m) radius of him. This is the basic purpose behind cults, covens and ritual magic, to get everyone focused on the same goal and willing their P.P.E. to the master of ceremonies.

Certainly clear the Mage can draw from more than one living being so I see no reason why the Mage couldn't draw from more than one Talisman, etc.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by eliakon »

Mlp7029 wrote:From RUE pg 186; Drawing P.P.E. from other living beings.

1. Freely Given P.P.E. The P.P.E. is offered with the character'sknowledge and consent, enabling the mage to absorb 70% of the P.P.E. offered by each person within a 20 foot (6.1 m) radius. The donated P.P.E. may be used all at once, or parceled out to a number of different spells. There is no limit to the number of people who can join in an offer of their energy and if they are all focused via a ritual, the mage can draw on them all instead of those within only a 20 foot (6.1 m) radius of him. This is the basic purpose behind cults, covens and ritual magic, to get everyone focused on the same goal and willing their P.P.E. to the master of ceremonies.

Certainly clear the Mage can draw from more than one living being so I see no reason why the Mage couldn't draw from more than one Talisman, etc.

*shrugs* I would just say that talismans don't 'freely give' energy and don't focus on spells via ritual. Your mileage may vary of course.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Tor »

If I were a mage who knew the Talisman or Scroll spell who wanted to corner a market and keep my value high, I would have a strong incentive to hunt down and mind-wipe or kill other mages I had reason to think also knew these spells.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

Tor wrote:If I were a mage who knew the Talisman or Scroll spell who wanted to corner a market and keep my value high, I would have a strong incentive to hunt down and mind-wipe or kill other mages I had reason to think also knew these spells.

That's not entirely relevant to the original question and probably deserves its own topic to further discussion.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

Even the simplest of tasks in Palladium tend to take at least one melee attack/action to perform. So after reviewing all the contributors' input on this discussion I feel justified in continuing to require a mage to expend an action in order to gather P.P.E. from an external source prior to actually casting a non-ritual spell (which also takes its usual action(s)). More than one source requires more than one action - each source takes its own action to focus and pull P.P.E. from.

Also, the duration and amount of P.P.E. they can hold above their base is still limited as noted in the texts used (Book of Magic or Mysteries of Magic), so if the spell's P.P.E. is greater than the mage's base + the extra they can hold then the spell will be unable to be cast by that mage, except as a ritual. The mage will then need to make preparations to have enough P.P.E. available during the ritual (THIS is where a deck of playing cards, each their own P.P.E. talisman, could be a useful and cool ritual "prop").

I know not everyone agrees with my interpretation but for the purposes of my games, and in the absence of clarifying canon material, this is what I will be continuing to implement. Thank you all for your input in this matter.
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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Mlp7029 »

Glistam wrote:Even the simplest of tasks in Palladium tend to take at least one melee attack/action to perform. So after reviewing all the contributors' input on this discussion I feel justified in continuing to require a mage to expend an action in order to gather P.P.E. from an external source prior to actually casting a non-ritual spell (which also takes its usual action(s)). More than one source requires more than one action - each source takes its own action to focus and pull P.P.E. from.

Also, the duration and amount of P.P.E. they can hold above their base is still limited as noted in the texts used (Book of Magic or Mysteries of Magic), so if the spell's P.P.E. is greater than the mage's base + the extra they can hold then the spell will be unable to be cast by that mage, except as a ritual. The mage will then need to make preparations to have enough P.P.E. available during the ritual (THIS is where a deck of playing cards, each their own P.P.E. talisman, could be a useful and cool ritual "prop").

I know not everyone agrees with my interpretation but for the purposes of my games, and in the absence of clarifying canon material, this is what I will be continuing to implement. Thank you all for your input in this matter.


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Re: Magic, mages, spellcasting and sources of P.P.E.

Unread post by Glistam »

I did some time ago, and I skimmed back through it now at your suggeston but if there was any info related to attacks per melee and drawing energy from P.P.E sources then I missed it.
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kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

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Temporal Wizard O.C.C. update 0.8 | Rifts random encounters
New Fire magic | New Temporal magic
Grim Gulf, the Nightlands version of Century Station

Let Chaos Magic flow in your campaigns.
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