Dragunov versus the Megaverse

[Tor]

So was taking a look at weapons in Nightbane. Page 216 4th from the top (or 3rd from the bottom) is a USSR sniper rifle which has AMAZING range.

I don't know if I've ever seen a hand-held weapon with range this amazing. I mean sure, a lot of robot (or even power armor in case of glitter-boy) can match or exceed it, but has there ever been anything this good in such a small package?

Since Nightbane is modern-earth, I figure we would probably also see this in Beyond, HU, N&SS or TMNT.

How hard do you think it would be to find a beauty like this in post-apocalyptic settings like After the Bomb, Splicers, Systems Failure or Rifts?

This thing has better range than the TK rifles wielded by Xiticix, the rail guns wielded by SAMAS or Enforcers, or the lasers from sky cycles. You'd have trouble with Spider-Skull Walkers or if the enemy opted to reply with mini-missiles, but otherwise, you're in a range sweet-spot.

This thing goes further than the laser beam in the Juicer Assassin energy rifle... plus it has sound dampeners to mask your position... wouldn't juicer snipers actually want a Dragunov?

Sure, it's an SDC weapon, but so are a lot of targets... and couldn't you amp it up with ram-jet rounds? Not to mention there's 3 spells in nightbane that allow you to enchant modern weapons to damage creatures (wouldn't even need silver rounds to snipe vampires with this, may even allow you to harm MDC ones) or the ram-jet rounds in Mercs.

Seeing this weapon made me realize how few long-range hand weapons actually exist out there. Unless you're using a hand-held mini-missile launcher there really isn't anything like this.

Least, far as I know. Does anyone know if a weapon of such magnificent range has been published outside Nightbane? HU2 avoided printing the weapons, dunno about any other modern-earth settings.

[glitterboy2098]

this thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_sniper_rifle

[Jefffar]

Yeah, the range for the Dragunov has been exaggerated for quie some time. I think the figure is either something quoted form a CIA factbook trying to justify the need for better infantry weapons or they are quoting the maximum range at which the weapon's sight is adjustable to. Seeing as the sights on an AK-47 are marked out to 1000m and that weapon is lucky to score a hit past 300ms, the 1800m mark may be wishful thinking.

In practical terms, the SVD is the former Soviet equivalent to a Dedicated Marksman's Rifle, not a true sniper rifle. It is designed for use within the infantry (I think commonly 1 per platoon or squad) and special forces units at common battlefield ranges. It lacks many of the features found in true sniper rifles for long range accuracy. So I'd say that 800m is probably the top end of the real effective range and it may be only 600m or so.

[FatherMorpheus]

The SVD (Dragunov) uses a 7.62x54R rifle round. One of the oldest still used production rounds still used in any modern military.
Ballistic ally speaking it is has similar properties to the .308 Winchester / 7.62 NATO round.

A good quality SVD (not the more common more cheaply made Romanian PSL) are actually highly sought weapons platforms. With high quality rounds (very hard to find) you could easily make 1000m shots. While it was more of a Dedicated Marksman's Rifle, it could do the trick. Of course, for a real sniper platform it does have issues. Namely the positioning of the optic and poor quality ammunition which is usually available.

With all that said, there are much better real life platforms to base a sniper type weapon on. Of course, most of the modern weapon books for Palladium are questionable with most of their data. Fairly arbitrary really. For example, they list a huge group as 7.62mm but don't make the distinction that a few of those weapons are 7.62 x 39 (AK-47), 7.62x54R (Dragnuove) or 7.62 x 51 (NATO most of the others). But don't point out that those three rounds are a bit different. While the 7.62x54R and 7.62x51 are comparable rounds, the 7.62x39 is not.

Anyway... It is your incarnation of Rifts... Maybe one of the Soviet groups made something more modern from Warlords of Russia groups. You could even couple it with the Sniper rules from Rifter 23 (p74)

[Tor]

Well I just sorta figured any modern WP in Nightbane probably exists as some pre-Rifts relic in Rifts.

If the Dragunov has already been eclipsed IRL then better stuff should probably exist in Rifts right?

*wonders if anything longer-range is in modern weapons compendium*

[Jefffar]

Well I just sorta figured any modern WP in Nightbane probably exists as some pre-Rifts relic in Rifts.

If the Dragunov has already been eclipsed IRL then better stuff should probably exist in Rifts right?

*wonders if anything longer-range is in modern weapons compendium*

In reality any of the true 7.62mm/.30 cal sniper rifles in the books outrange the Dragunov, it's jsut that the book stats don't do them justice.

The full powered 7.62mm//30 Cal rifles (ie not firing 7.62x39 like an AK) probably have an effective range of 600 to 800m as battlefield rifles (roughly comparable to the SVD). The true sniper rifles are probably good from 800m out to 1200m for the really good ones, plus a bit more in the case of anything firing .300 Win Magnum.

.338 Lapua and .408 Chey Tac are even longer ranged, but aren't stated out anywhere. A .50 BMG firing Anti-Materiel Rifle can easily engage out to 1600m and some shots with those have been reported at ranges over 2400m, but that's in the hands of expert snipers with a spotter helping them adjust.

[FatherMorpheus]

Well I just sorta figured any modern WP in Nightbane probably exists as some pre-Rifts relic in Rifts.

If the Dragunov has already been eclipsed IRL then better stuff should probably exist in Rifts right?

*wonders if anything longer-range is in modern weapons compendium*

In reality any of the true 7.62mm/.30 cal sniper rifles in the books outrange the Dragunov, it's jsut that the book stats don't do them justice.

The full powered 7.62mm//30 Cal rifles (ie not firing 7.62x39 like an AK) probably have an effective range of 600 to 800m as battlefield rifles (roughly comparable to the SVD). The true sniper rifles are probably good from 800m out to 1200m for the really good ones, plus a bit more in the case of anything firing .300 Win Magnum.

.338 Lapua and .408 Chey Tac are even longer ranged, but aren't stated out anywhere. A .50 BMG firing Anti-Materiel Rifle can easily engage out to 1600m and some shots with those have been reported at ranges over 2400m, but that's in the hands of expert snipers with a spotter helping them adjust.

I agree, 7.62x51 does have legs out to 1200m, but its speed at that point is basically a baseball smacking the target. Painful, but not lethal. I also agree .300 Win Mag, .338 Lapua, .408 Chey Tac, .416 Barrett, and .50 BMG are all solid long range sniper rounds. I've seen the .338 Lapua do amazing things with considerably small investment.

It would be kind of cool to do an updated Modern Arms and Compendium of Contemporary Weapons book. Considering it was published in 1999 or something, it could really use an update.

[say652]

Nobody shows the 45/70 government any love
A buffalo rifle, lever action, hurls 405 grains of lead accurately at ridiculous ranges.
We irl were popping milk jugs at 1000 yards with iron sights. In the hands of a skilled marksman......

EDIT: A few points here:

1) I have had characters use 45/70 and similar rounds when it fit their back story (typically a guide or hunter type).

2) While very accurate against a static target, the 45/70 has a very low muzzle velocity compared to bullets more commonly used in military applications today, meaning that aiming becomes very difficult against a target that is moving even a little. This factor gets compounded at long range making it ill suited for engaging the targets a military Sniper typically would.

3) While the round has a lot of momentum and tissue damage capability, its not a great performer against body armour compared to the more common rounds used for military purposes today.

4) This was a necro-post, thread locked.

[Alrik Vas]

Not to mention modern sniping is more like golf than marksman shooting. It's an equation as much as it is body control.

Also range in Palladium, as stated is funny. They say weapons can hit targets out to 50% further than listed range at various penalties, but inside the listed range, you must hit a higher base number. It's interesting, as if you can make a 15+ at -6 because you're firing at a target over 1000m away, it's harder to dodge, which makes as much sense as it doesn't.