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Has anyone played a Rifts campaign where the players had no way to dealing or receiving MD/MDC?

If so, how did it go?

--flatline

flatline wrote:Has anyone played a Rifts campaign where the players had no way to dealing or receiving MD/MDC?

If so, how did it go?

--flatline

To be clear, do you mean that MDC/SDC exists but the players have no access to anything with it, or do you mean a houseruled game where everything is SDC period?

Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

--flatline

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

Wait, what? So the baddies are all MDC but no PCs have MDC? Uh... I would call this a fairly quick game where the PCs don't make it past the first adventure, OR they are all VERY fast and just run away the whole game.

flatline wrote:Has anyone played a Rifts campaign where the players had no way to dealing or receiving MD/MDC?

If so, how did it go?

--flatline

Yes, I have!


I ran a Vagabond campaign years ago, and it only lasted a handful of adventures before the players lost interest, due to the high mortality rate.
Of course, I could have written the adventures to be LOT less lethal if I'd desired, but I wanted to make things extra challenging.
These days, older and wiser, I'd have been able to run the SDC campaign a lot more successfully.

Also, I've run a number of different adventures over the years that were mostly SDC due simply to location (i.e., inside a CS City or such) or circumstance (party is ambushed at night, when they don't have armor on or weapons handy).
Those generally went pretty well.

FatherMorpheus wrote:

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

Wait, what? So the baddies are all MDC but no PCs have MDC? Uh... I would call this a fairly quick game where the PCs don't make it past the first adventure, OR they are all VERY fast and just run away the whole game.

It all depends on what you're up against.
Keep in mind that SDC armor can protect against very low-end MD attacks, especially if your characters have a high amount of SDC/HP. Just don't get tagged more than once or twice, and best to not get hit at all.
It also matters what the numbers are. A group of 6 PCs who are well-armed with SDC weapons and armor, and who have the right specialty rounds (wood, silver, etc.) can take out a lone vampire (or werewolf, etc.) sometimes with minimal casualties.
And it definitely helps to have the advantage of surprise.

Also, the GOAL of the adventure matters. Role-playing isn't always hack-and-slash. Straight up combat isn't always the way to go, especially in Palladium, a system which dishes out extra xp for Avoiding Unnecessary Violence.
In one of the adventures I ran, the enemy was a lone, wounded xiticix that was walking (wings were destroyed) on a path that would take it to the PCs village, where it could do some serious damage. Not to mention, it might spot the village, and let other bugs back in its hive know where the village was.
The PCs mission was to stop the xiticix from finding the village.
Since they were entirely SDC equipped, they decided to distract it, luring it away from the village. And their plan worked, more or less. Well enough to save the village without any PCs dying, anyway.

I've run games where everyone is just a plain old human but have access to lower end MDC armour and weapons that do 1D6 MD at most.

Going up against tougher things, like vamps or other supernatural predators, made them thing twice about the way they handled the situation.

Yes they had MDC armour but it was only like 20-30 so a few good hits and your armour was toast, this was before the whole G.I. Joe rule. So it wasn't quite what you guys did but somewhat similar. Each person wasn't a walking one man army so it took team work and skill to take down a single opponent instead of the usual method of blasting everything to crap with high end weapons, let alone having them go up against two or more at a time.

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

--flatline

Are you allowed to exploit weakness's that deal MDC to beings with that vunerability? Eg: silver weapons on dyvals who take damage from silver.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

--flatline

Are you allowed to exploit weakness's that deal MDC to beings with that vunerability? Eg: silver weapons on dyvals who take damage from silver.

Sure. And you're allowed to acquire MD/MDC opportunistically if you so choose. The point of this challenge isn't to totally avoid MD/MDC, but to see if it's possible to get going without already having it.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

--flatline

Are you allowed to exploit weakness's that deal MDC to beings with that vunerability? Eg: silver weapons on dyvals who take damage from silver.

Sure. And you're allowed to acquire MD/MDC opportunistically if you so choose. The point of this challenge isn't to totally avoid MD/MDC, but to see if it's possible to get going without already having it.

--flatline

In my original gaming group, the only character to live past second level during our first year of Rifts was a RMB Vagabond that I rolled up based on myself.
He lived until 4th level, then got killed by a brodkil ambush.

I'm purposely not giving many rules. Everyone's game is different and so if someone has played a game even close to this, I'd love to hear about it.

For all the theme games we used to play, starting without MD/MDC was never one of them. Sometimes a particular character might have qualified as no MD/MDC, but I doubt we ever had a whole party that would have qualified.

--flatline

Never had a full campaign run with S.D.C., but I did have the players get ambushed without any of their gear by a fully equipped assault team. Event lasted a couple of sessions and by the end the players not only survived, but had also turned the tide and captured or killed the assault team.

I think the closest I have ever been involved with was a CE game. We all played 'normal people' surviving Armageddon. As such no one had magic, or psionics, or super powers or anything else, and since MD weapons and MDC armor were all military stuff....we didn't have any of that to start with either. The first order of business was to try and scavenge some military weapons in fact.

The only mechanic restriction I usually make is that if most of my players are S.D.C. beings then all players have to choose S.D.C. races. (This means you at first level are currently a S.D.C. creature. Not just born as one.) We usually run an North America campaign so that takes care of the South America bullsh*t.

This keeps the power level (and combat anxiety) about the same.

Keeping M.D.C. weaponry and abilities (and armor?) out of players hands doesn't seem like that was ever the intention of the way the game should be played. Just scan most starting equipment, if not 1 than 2 sets of armor are present plus cashe of weapons/tools.

I wouldn't want to play this way after owning over 20ish RIFTS/palladium books. It would be like swimming with handcuffs on.

I could see it as a exercise to educate a problem player who is to kick-in-the-doorish for the rest of the players personality/style.

Show them that this is a think first game.

Great post Flatline.

Reading this made me reflect on a campaign I gm'd, where the cast (Players), had some serious humbling and entertaining gaming to experience, where they were captured for several crimes (some of them they actually were guilty of doing) and were locked away in a dimensional prison, dubbed the Citadel. There, they were locked away in the "squishy" cell blocks among other SDC beings, some human some not. No powers, armor, magic, weapons; just your core natural attributes that were governed by the Warden. That was horrific enough, but seeing them flee, usurp or garner respect with the upper tier SDC beings, coordinating their own gang and networking with the outcast MDC beings in General population was an unforgettable gaming experience.

A major inspiration at the time was the film Lock Up feat. Sylvester Stallone. It was so hilarious seeing the cast play a scary football-hocky-kill-em-man like game called "Deadball", literally hurling or carrying a 70-100 pound sphere as best you can to lob into a rival teams goal was a major highlight. People were getting tore up just trying to catch the sphere, Broken fingers, hands, arms, concussions, and a lot more tragic consequences resulted from being the Receiver. The cast were all so scared when a being actually hurled the ball for a pass instead of hand-offs, and they would move out the way at the last second, feigning a slip or allowing for the interception and then begin the initial attack, hollering for their team buddies and back up all the while they were dragged, bucking and fighting, eye gouging and the whole lot. The end of the campaign was an epic prison break with only SDC gear, and they pulled it off!

That experience had them so respectful at the very notion of getting re-captured and going back, that the game became even more entertaining, because no...... one wanted to ever go back there. However, whenever someone mentioned the gang in a positive light or professed to being a member outside of the prison, the cast took such pride in being the OGs sort of speak. Fun times with sdc I tell ya.

flatline wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:Regular Rifts setting with all the MDC baddies, but the player characters are all SDC, have no MDC armor or MD weapons (including, but not limited to spells or psionics that are MD/MDC).

--flatline

Are you allowed to exploit weakness's that deal MDC to beings with that vunerability? Eg: silver weapons on dyvals who take damage from silver.

Sure. And you're allowed to acquire MD/MDC opportunistically if you so choose. The point of this challenge isn't to totally avoid MD/MDC, but to see if it's possible to get going without already having it.

--flatline

More doable then. probablly best for some kind of city-rat game in a city where MDC is largely banned effectively. as long as you avoid the police/military/crime bosses who do have MDC gear you can survive until you get enough money/power to get some of your own.

Kind of hard to be an adventurer though. but a city-rat, in a city where MDC is banned, is certainly a doable campaign.

I've ran adventures within campaigns were the players were without the capability to do/protect against MDC and ones were it they were highly discouraged from doing so.

I think a whole campaign that way would be boring.

The scenarios I used:

Were visiting a very high security town, all weapons and armor had to be put into storage. No mages or master physics in the party.

Were escaping a prison so no starting MDC equipment, party mage had been drugged to disrupt spell-casting.

Entered a magical weak dimension (magic and psionics do SDC only) with high MDC tech, but had to keep weapons and armor hidden in order to blend in.

Marooned on a planet, MDC weapons and equipemnt pretty much lost or thrashed. The did have some MDC salvage that equated to clubs made of MDC and crude shields. The mage and psyhics were pretty much drained of most of there PPE/ISP at this point. The were immediately set upon my an MDC foe that they had to evade, no time to rest.

I've been in situations where MDC was depleted, but a big goal in those cases was "get the materiel needed to survive", be it through guile, force, or purchase. After all, if they're in non-environmental armor (or are stupid enough to take off their helmet), you can always garrotte someone, and then you have MDC armor.

As a player in this sort of campaign, I'd sign up for a few years as a Juicer with the deal being that I'd get to be a full conversion Borg when I was done with my three years.

/Sub

i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

i like and have played "under powered" characters that got out of situations that someone in full power armor etc probably wouldn't have, but never a full team.

the closest i probably got was having a group start in a prison transport that got caught in a crossfire and had time to grab a handful of weapons while escaping since they couldn't stick around that area, one recovered their "alien" rifle which used an entirely different system to e-clips and no way to get more ammo (since it used organic components the ammo also had a short 'shelf life' as well) and 1 MD pistol with just a few shots left.

so while they did start MD capable they did not have MDC armor and it was something they had to debate if it was the right thing to do using the hand full of shots when that was all they had with no way of recharging or getting more clips, and each shot had to count, what if you miss? or what happens if you run out of shots before the enemy runs out of MDC? so hiding or avoiding fights in other ways became the priority.

PSI-Lence wrote:i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

I think you can actually get some good mileage out of making Palladium into a bit more of a cover shooter... use a combination of the GI Joe rule and assigning cover values (i.e. "Yes, you hit, but you have to roll over X on a second d20 to see if you hit HIM or the tree he's hiding behind") to have firefights which result in shredded landscapes and people using cover.

Mark Hall wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

I think you can actually get some good mileage out of making Palladium into a bit more of a cover shooter... use a combination of the GI Joe rule and assigning cover values (i.e. "Yes, you hit, but you have to roll over X on a second d20 to see if you hit HIM or the tree he's hiding behind") to have firefights which result in shredded landscapes and people using cover.

Even in Mega-Damage combat, we learned to seek cover whenever we could.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

I think you can actually get some good mileage out of making Palladium into a bit more of a cover shooter... use a combination of the GI Joe rule and assigning cover values (i.e. "Yes, you hit, but you have to roll over X on a second d20 to see if you hit HIM or the tree he's hiding behind") to have firefights which result in shredded landscapes and people using cover.

Even in Mega-Damage combat, we learned to seek cover whenever we could.

Agreed. Only complete tools stands completely out in the open, line up toe to toe and exchange fire. Armour is expensive so why pay unnecessary repair costs, and it's not like you can tell in game when looking at their gun that they only do 1D6 so you can figure out how long your armour could last.

Believe it or not when I first started out we did have guys who did this, they would never duck in cover because they were wearing full E.B.A. or were full conversion borgs.

They only times I have even down that is when it's either been 1) a surprise/ambush attack or 2) a duel. My Plains Borg was challenged to a showdown at high noon in the main street. I don't know what buddy was thinking. The rules were SD pistols only and no armour allowed Even if he was faster on the draw than a borg (he was a plain old vanilla human) he had a snowball's chance in Hades of doing anything to me. I guess my poncho would have a hole in it

Razzinold wrote:Believe it or not when I first started out we did have guys who did this, they would never duck in cover because they were wearing full E.B.A. or were full conversion borgs.

Oh, yeah... my group did that for about the first year. Then we had the radical notion of trying to not get shot.
Then we started working on tactics.

They only times I have even down that is when it's either been 1) a surprise/ambush attack or 2) a duel. My Plains Borg was challenged to a showdown at high noon in the main street. I don't know what buddy was thinking. The rules were SD pistols only and no armour allowed Even if he was faster on the draw than a borg (he was a plain old vanilla human) he had a snowball's chance in Hades of doing anything to me. I guess my poncho would have a hole in it

I've not run a full campaign with the characters bereft of MDC capabilites, but I've started a few out that way, making the player characters, "make their bones," so to speak, before they were able to capture any sort of MD equipment.

It can be fun times, and really made my players appreciate their MD stuff.

Not in Rifts, but we did in Robotech (Macross era, first edition).

Characters were out of their mecha and were trying to collect info and locations on a rogue zentraedi camp so they went to the local bar. They basically revealed they were RDF and the locals, whom were obviously anti-unification rebels pulled out pistols and shotguns and an SDC gun fight kicked off, until a Zentraedi Battle Pod showed up and kicked open the roof, causing the players to scatter into the woods with no chance of even damaging the mecha.

Back then, MDC was restricted to basically only mecha and vehicles. Even "MDC equivalent" SDC weapons were rocket launchers and grenade launchers. Had this campaign been in 2d Edition or Rifts, the players would have easy access to MDC weapons and armor, even in Macross era. So it was more the environment and setting which made that situation, otherwise it most likely wouldnt have ever happened.

Razzinold wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

I think you can actually get some good mileage out of making Palladium into a bit more of a cover shooter... use a combination of the GI Joe rule and assigning cover values (i.e. "Yes, you hit, but you have to roll over X on a second d20 to see if you hit HIM or the tree he's hiding behind") to have firefights which result in shredded landscapes and people using cover.

Even in Mega-Damage combat, we learned to seek cover whenever we could.

Agreed. Only complete tools stands completely out in the open, line up toe to toe and exchange fire. Armour is expensive so why pay unnecessary repair costs, and it's not like you can tell in game when looking at their gun that they only do 1D6 so you can figure out how long your armour could last.

Believe it or not when I first started out we did have guys who did this, they would never duck in cover because they were wearing full E.B.A. or were full conversion borgs.

They only times I have even down that is when it's either been 1) a surprise/ambush attack or 2) a duel. My Plains Borg was challenged to a showdown at high noon in the main street. I don't know what buddy was thinking. The rules were SD pistols only and no armour allowed Even if he was faster on the draw than a borg (he was a plain old vanilla human) he had a snowball's chance in Hades of doing anything to me. I guess my poncho would have a hole in it

Plus, depending on if you use the optional rules in RUE of taking SDC damage while in MDC armor (and depending on how you interpret the rules and/or modify with house rules), even in MDC armor, you wouldnt want to be hit because it *hurts*. Yeah, you might take 40 MDC to the chest from a rail gun burst and survive, but you have to contend with impact damage, getting thrown back, getting stunned and so on.

Taking cover in MDC combat, even SDC cover, is still useful because if the enemy does not notice you, they dont shoot at you. If you stand out in the open High Noon style, you make yourself a target.

Kagashi wrote:

Razzinold wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mark Hall wrote:

PSI-Lence wrote:i've always liked the idea of doing something like that so players have to rely on something more than stand and shoot tactics.

I think you can actually get some good mileage out of making Palladium into a bit more of a cover shooter... use a combination of the GI Joe rule and assigning cover values (i.e. "Yes, you hit, but you have to roll over X on a second d20 to see if you hit HIM or the tree he's hiding behind") to have firefights which result in shredded landscapes and people using cover.

Even in Mega-Damage combat, we learned to seek cover whenever we could.

Agreed. Only complete tools stands completely out in the open, line up toe to toe and exchange fire. Armour is expensive so why pay unnecessary repair costs, and it's not like you can tell in game when looking at their gun that they only do 1D6 so you can figure out how long your armour could last.

Believe it or not when I first started out we did have guys who did this, they would never duck in cover because they were wearing full E.B.A. or were full conversion borgs.

They only times I have even down that is when it's either been 1) a surprise/ambush attack or 2) a duel. My Plains Borg was challenged to a showdown at high noon in the main street. I don't know what buddy was thinking. The rules were SD pistols only and no armour allowed Even if he was faster on the draw than a borg (he was a plain old vanilla human) he had a snowball's chance in Hades of doing anything to me. I guess my poncho would have a hole in it

Plus, depending on if you use the optional rules in RUE of taking SDC damage while in MDC armor (and depending on how you interpret the rules and/or modify with house rules), even in MDC armor, you wouldnt want to be hit because it *hurts*. Yeah, you might take 40 MDC to the chest from a rail gun burst and survive, but you have to contend with impact damage, getting thrown back, getting stunned and so on.

Taking cover in MDC combat, even SDC cover, is still useful because if the enemy does not notice you, they dont shoot at you. If you stand out in the open High Noon style, you make yourself a target.

Correct on both accounts, even in real life situations this applies.
Sure a Kevlar vest can saves your life but you are still left with massive bruising, possibly some cracked ribs. So I could see how someone could apply SDC damage from being rattled around inside your suit of armour.

I guess it depends on how you rule on how form fitting the armour is. Personally I rule that the inner lays fits like a second skin and then you have the armour on top. Even still if you take a massive blast from a rail gun in the chest it may leave a mark depending on how much damage it did.
Also even though your head is protected, it's never good for your brain to be sloshing around inside your skull. So you survive the hit to the head, but there could still be trauma caused by the after effects.

Hiding is hiding, the material only comes in to play if you do get spotted and they open up on your butt

Too many times have I seen players assume the armor takes the damage and the character just muscles through like a terminator. Get into a car accident where the car takes all the "damage", then get up and continue with your day...you can't. Because you took secondary damage even though you, yourself, did not get hit by the other car. And that is an SDC example. Amplify that by 100 times and that's an MD impact.

For a good example of this secondary damage, the Adam Chilson novels illustrate this beautifully. The novels had their fair share of problems (mostly editing) but they did indeed excel in other areas, this example being one of them. In the novels, the characters exhibit bruises, broken bones, burns, and abrasions when getting hit by different types of damage types, even though the armor protected them from the MD portion of the blast. At the end of every battle, somebody was injured in this fashion.

Kagashi wrote:Too many times have I seen players assume the armor takes the damage and the character just muscles through like a terminator. Get into a car accident where the car takes all the "damage", then get up and continue with your day...you can't. Because you took secondary damage even though you, yourself, did not get hit by the other car. And that is an SDC example. Amplify that by 100 times and that's an MD impact.

For a good example of this secondary damage, the Adam Chilson novels illustrate this beautifully. The novels had their fair share of problems (mostly editing) but they did indeed excel in other areas, this example being one of them. In the novels, the characters exhibit bruises, broken bones, burns, and abrasions when getting hit by different types of damage types, even though the armor protected them from the MD portion of the blast. At the end of every battle, somebody was injured in this fashion.

Your players should know that during a car accident 3 impacts occur. Your car hits the other car, wall, tree, etc., your body hits the steering wheel/dash and finally your internal organs smash up against the inside of your body.

I let my players have some leeway to keep the game fun, but one guy figured he could escape a hover vehicle that was being attacked by jumping out the rear hatch and plummeting to the ground.

His defense was "I'm wearing full Heavy E.B.A." and I responded with "yes you are, and the attacking bandits thank your surviving group members for the slightly banged up suit of armour after they retrieve it and pour what's left of you out onto the ground"

Razzinold wrote:

Kagashi wrote:Too many times have I seen players assume the armor takes the damage and the character just muscles through like a terminator. Get into a car accident where the car takes all the "damage", then get up and continue with your day...you can't. Because you took secondary damage even though you, yourself, did not get hit by the other car. And that is an SDC example. Amplify that by 100 times and that's an MD impact.

For a good example of this secondary damage, the Adam Chilson novels illustrate this beautifully. The novels had their fair share of problems (mostly editing) but they did indeed excel in other areas, this example being one of them. In the novels, the characters exhibit bruises, broken bones, burns, and abrasions when getting hit by different types of damage types, even though the armor protected them from the MD portion of the blast. At the end of every battle, somebody was injured in this fashion.

Your players should know that during a car accident 3 impacts occur. Your car hits the other car, wall, tree, etc., your body hits the steering wheel/dash and finally your internal organs smash up against the inside of your body.

I let my players have some leeway to keep the game fun, but one guy figured he could escape a hover vehicle that was being attacked by jumping out the rear hatch and plummeting to the ground.

His defense was "I'm wearing full Heavy E.B.A." and I responded with "yes you are, and the attacking bandits thank your surviving group members for the slightly banged up suit of armour after they retrieve it and pour what's left of you out onto the ground"

You both could just point to the offical rules for impact damage in mega damage body armor. they're all the way back in rifts main book on page 12. it's 1 SDC damage for every 10 MD your body armor takes, plus 1d4 SDC per 10 MPH of an impact (say jumping out of a hovercraft) you are going over 30. so jumping out of a hovercraft doing 130 MPH is 1d4*10 SDC with a 40% chance of being stunned for 2d4 melee rounds.

So MDC body armor is apparently highly impact resistant, but it dosn't protect you completely.

Playing aftermath or whatever it is... terrible. You got sdc chumps trying to fight demons with 100's of MDC, who swing for like atomic bomb damage. There was no way to defend or escape. The only chance in a game like that is to start them out with gear. I can't imagine playing a game where you are sdc constantly running or fighting things that instantly kill you in 1 shot. I wouldn't care about my character 1 bit because I knew at any moment they could die. Personally I don't feel that is how this game is meant to be played and I couldn't imagine a game like that being any fun for the players trying not to get killed and GM fudging everything to try not to kill them. As a 1 shot mission or something that happens after a ship crash, maybe fun to remind them of their mortality, but not as a campaign.